Gay and Muslim?
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Fare thee well,
Quran talks about normal relationships between man and woman and does not by any means even touch the area of homosexuality except perhaps the story of Lut. From logical deduction you can see that it is heterosexual marriages that are the standard. From a practical point of view the design of the sexes makes homosexual intercourse completely unproductive.
It seems to be innate in some individuals to be gay and nature itself is a testimony to that even but it is against the design. It is politically incorrect as someone said to say it might be a mental disorder and it is also difficult to know what goes on in the minds of these people too. Some people who were gay and forced themselves to live heterosexually often feel unhappy and it seems even if they try to make themselves get turned on by women they cannot.
It seems we have to accept that some people are homosexual and that they cannot be helped. It is difficult to cure someone on that mental level when you need to know exactly what goes on in the mind. Forcing them to be heterosexual will not help them and killing them is like killing something naturally occurring and thus no valid argument for it.
This topic is always intensively discussed and shows that it disturbs people.
God bless you
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RED is mine, inserted as premises.
Salam
The following is your conclusion and premises
Premise The Qur'an give command or injunciton regarding sex-marriage between a woman and a man. (comments)
Premise 4.25 ...and give them (women) their dues with equity with their virtue, without impropriety nor taking them as secret partners... (comments - fallacy)
Therefore Sex is marriage between a woman and a man (comments)
Marriage between a woman and a man is sex.The definition of sexual intercourse
sexual contact between individuals <- comments
involving penetrationesp. the insertion of a man's erect penis
into a woman's vagina
typically culminating in orgasm
and the ejaculation of semen("sexual contact involving penetration", ie. conduct, sexual conducts and not duty (deen) or institution)
Issue
According to the Qur'an etc., Prostitution is equally between a woman and a man, but it is not a marriage despite there is an engagement of sexual relations; ie. there is "penetration", and it is sexual intercourse.
So how can your theory explain this situation?
Is prostitution an institution of marriage?
Yes? No?
Which Ayat? Law? Dictionary?
Peace. peace
You do not get it. Too bad. God considers everything a marriage, it is men that refuse to acknowledge that they are acting outside the low God. Is that a reason for God to change the nature of the world He has created. If you marry a prostitute it is still marriage but YOU, YOU, YOU, YOU, not God, do nto consider it so. What is it so sacred about brutish lust that makes it impossible for people to grasp that what they do is not what God meant and that they are associating, yes associating when they erect their own conept of marriage instead of God's.
Salaam
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God considers everything a marriage
If you marry a prostitute it is still marriage but YOU, YOU, YOU, YOU, not God, do nto consider it so.
Sex = Marriage
Marriage = Sex
Therefore, there is only "Marriage"Therefore, "Sex" must be defined according to "Marriage" (God's Law). <- fallacy, refer comment
Is this your point? Okay, I got it.
Salam
So it is your own rules?
Can you show and prove with an ayat from the Qur'an that a sexual intercourse with a prostitute is the institution of marriage (any religion or laws)?
Secondly,
("sexual contact involving penetration", ie. conduct, sexual conducts and not duty (deen) or institution)
Can you prove from the Qur'an how a "sexual penetration" is in fact a contract of marriage?
Which one is referring to the pen, paper and the ink for signing the contract? yes
Peace.
p/s I wonder why people are easily offended when we are just asking questions for their conclusions. When we just asking for an explanation. Why making a conclusion if you cannot back up or supported it with valid facts and reasoning? Why need to feel insecure? hmm
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REFER HERE
- take note the status of father-in-law and mother-in-law is much like your own father and mother. There are not party to the contract of marriage but equally affected by marriages. Is the Qur'an or INSTITUTION of marriage is all about sex? (ie. as per your argument that sex is marriage and marriage is sex) (3349), (2236-237), (55), (243) and (2233).
Like the text hints at. We should separate contractees of marriage on one hand, and those affected by marriage on the other hand. Sex is not included with those that are just affected by marriage, like children, siblings and in-laws. The graphic could be misleading. Marriage may affect all what the graphic highlights, but it is not marriage as such. Marriage is a contract between two spouses.
I believe huruf wants to say that sex is a distinguishing characteristic of marriage (practical part/result/premission of the contract).
Sex is intimately connected to the constellation of marriage. Marriage gives permission to have sex. Sex is found in side marriage, but not outside. Having sex, therefore, is engaging in something which is part of marriage. Sex without marriage could perhaps then be seen as someone ripping a piece of marriage out of the whole, using it for temporary pleasure, and then throwing it away.... perhaps a bit like playing with someones feelings, for fun, and then just ditching that person like trash. It's like using something out of context (in the wrong context, for the wrong reasons) and then dumping it. -
Therefore Sex is marriage between a woman and a man (comments)
Marriage between a woman and a man is sex.Marriage is a man and a woman becoming husband and wife which is legal and public decency; lots of intercourses on various issues involving life goes between them before they decide to unite in their lives as partners to deal with their lives.
Sex is their private affair which they themselves engage in darkness and under cover; and to do it openly or talk of it plainly is not acceptable in a decent society.
The definition of sexual intercourse
sexual contact between individuals <- comments
involving penetrationesp. the insertion of a man's erect penis
into a woman's vagina
typically culminating in orgasm
and the ejaculation of semenNo. What you describe is sexual encounter!
Before becoming engaged in marriage as man and wife many an intercourse on matters of life and living as partners have got exchanged between them, heart to heart. Their relations is soulful intercourse; physical intercourse between them again has love and affection and care would be predominant and of paramount importance to them. As a result of this lust shall not play a lead role there. This is the reason why a married woman and man would avoid talk or explicit narration on sex between them. Any decent married couple of orthodox nature do not find as admissible to their hearts such private subject to be spoken out publicly.
Which Ayat? Law? Dictionary denies this!
Peace.
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Salam
This is much of the issue of confusing the "Causation" with "Association".
Human beings have an inherent tendency to "see" events associated or that "go together" as "events that cause one another"; ie. they conclude that because characteristic X (smoking) is associated with characteristic Y (death), that X therefore causes Y (death). Whereas someone may also die because of taking too much sugar (hyperinsulinism), no exercise or else.
Similarly, because of "SEX" is associated with "MARRIAGE" therefore "SEX" causes "MARRIAGE".
When we think this way, we are, however, often very wrong.
Association or correlation does not prove CAUSATION!
Sex = Penetration = Sexual Conducts
Marriage = Contract = Duty = Deen
Her argument = Sexual penetration = Duty (deen) to wife, children and relatives etc.
Therefore the issue is what causes marriage?
It is quite absurd to make a conclusion that it is all about sex, the sole determination factor! yes
Peace
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Salam
The word, 'Sex' is two gentle and constructively opposing genders designed as a set of unity, for the minds to become solemn and neutral. Lust and desire removed is sexual relation or intercourse of unifying the opposing genders. Marriage is solemn oath to live up to the expectation of the One, who created and ordained upon a community, such dignified relationship without talk of sexual intimacy between its men and women.
Peace.
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Salam
Situation 1 Sex is not equal to marriage
This is a clear ayat proving "marriage is not sex, and sex is not marriage". There are differences between the two words.
And lawful to you are beyond these
you seek them
with your property
desiring chastity
NOT unlawful SEXual intercourse <- sex is not marriage
(424)Situation 2 There are marriages, with or without Sex
O You who have believed
when you marry believing women
and then divorce them <- marriage
before you have touched them <- no sex
then there is not for you any waiting period to count concerning them
So provide for them and give them a gracious release
(3349)Other references
(3349), (2236-237), (55), (243) and (2233).
Therefore, sex is not the "causation" of "marriage".
Sex is not marriage.
Peace
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Salam
O You who have believed
when you marry believing women
and then divorce them <- marriage
before you have touched them <- no sex
then there is not for you any waiting period to count concerning them
So provide for them and give them a gracious release
(3349)Therefore, sex is not the "causation" of "marriage".
Sex is not marriage.
Peace
Peace,
What is that waiting period connected to?
salam.
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Salam
I don't understand your point.
Do you understand the issue and this discussion?
The issue is whether there can be marriages without sex.
and.. there will be no issue of "divorce" if there is no "marriage".
Therefore, there is marriage, with or without sex.
Therefore, sex is not the "causation" of marriage.
Therefore, sex is not marriage.
How hard can that be?
The issue is not about things related to divorce procedure.
Peace.
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Salam,
I am not contradicting you but only favouring your point which is correct in my view.
O You who have believed
when you marry believing women
and then divorce them
before you have touched them
then there is not for you any waiting period to count concerning them
So provide for them and give them a gracious release
(3349)The critical difference between men and women are men are lusty for sex in marriage; while women are more concerned about security by way wealth and property, than sex. Her intercourse before marriage on such matters with the man were falsehood and lies; upon marriage the real intercourse opens as the topic of concern from the woman's point of view, which he is unable to satisfactorily respond; as a result she does not allow him to sexually advance; and there ends the matter. He gets angry and divorces her before even he was able to lustfully touch her. Yet Allah's decree, 'the man has to spend half the Mahr he had promised her and leave her' for reason he had cheated her into marriage only for sex.
And she is fit for proper marriage with a good God-fearing man without waiting period.
Peace
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Salam
Can there be a "divorce" without marriage?
Peace
Salam,
Valid. Marriage is generally a community affair, which would be considered by its members as sex having consummated. So from the point of its view it is marriage and then divorce. Allah speaks from the community's point of view. And for the believers who shall discern and abide by His decree, to them he says, "There shall not be the mandatory waiting period of three months."
salam
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So from the point of its view it is marriage and then divorce.
Salam
That's it, that's all I need to know.
It is so since the only relevant issue for determination of marriage is can there be a "divorce" without marriage.
and ... the facts from the Qur'an inferred that marriage can occur without sex.
Therefore, sex is not the "causation" of marriage.
Therefore, sex is not marriage.
Peace
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Muslims, you keep confusing what people -now or then, when the profet was alive- do, think or say with what God commands and enjoins. People do the things you say and God talks about the things that people do, but what people do is not necessarily what God commands, but if the do certain things, then God knows they do them and talks consequently, but God does say nowhere marriage is one thing, sexbetween woman and man is something else and they are separate things. If people separate them in deed that is what is called zani and zaniya, and they are assimilated to associators, because they erect their law instead of the law of God.
Salaam
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Muslims, you keep confusing what people -now or then, when the profet was alive- do, think or say with what God commands and enjoins. People do the things you say and God talks about the things that people do, but what people do is not necessarily what God commands, but if the do certain things, then God knows they do them and talks consequently, but God does say nowhere marriage is one thing, sexbetween woman and man is something else and they are separate things. If people separate them in deed that is what is called zani and zaniya, and they are assimilated to associators, because they erect their law instead of the law of God.
Salam
I hope you can back up your conclusion with words from the Qur'an and appealing to solid evidence and rationality, rather than making decisions according to what might be pleasing to imagine or say; They follow not except assumption, and indeed, assumption avails not against the truth at all (532
I have proved with various ayat from the Qur'an and proper logical structure. Poor reasoning will contradict but good reasoning cannot contradict with one another. I may be confused, it is normal since we are all human beings and learning from each others. However, at least I'm confused with solid authority from the Qur'an and proper logical structure.
Peace.
p/s The issue is not about the element of "sex is separated from marriage", but whether "sex is marriage". It is not the same, and there are differences between these two issues.
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Separation of sex and marriage in the thoughts of the "believers" is the ultimate hypocrisy, falsehood before God. Thereby males obtain "deniability". Since they did not intend to be serious about it, nobody can claim anything and in male dominated societies, it tantamounts to making women their toy by sheer violence of social damning.
What? God says in 4.1 to reverence the wombs. If you separate marriage and sex, what? you are no required to reverence the wombs? How stupid can a human being be?
And that is what is coming to the muslims societies on the whole, they are paying their oblivion of what is sacred. Males, seem to be able to get away with anything any time, but that is ok because marriage is something, sex is something else, and women devide between being toys for adults and surrogate keepers of morality for males. That departement fall on women, they (the nmales) need not do anything at all about it. They have toys on one side, keepers of their social standing on the other, damn the wombs and the reverence that is due to them.
That is the society you get when you separate sex from marriage, and in that sense I really do not think that muslim societies are morally better now than any time before, quite the opposite. Life was harder, materially in the past and men, physically did have to strain themselves more. They may have allowed themselves poligamy and concubines and other perquisites, but at least they did not deny their relationships, not to the same extent. Today they want all they had, on top of all modern conveniences and freedom of physical effort and western dress and mores, and on top of that yet, also deniability, freedom of dress for themselves but slavery of dress for the women, and the control of the bodies of women erecting themselves as arbiters of abortion when in fact they are claiming the right to abort universally themselves and throw all the onus on women because marriage, you know, is not sex, it is something else, and also claim the right to sexual harassment of women and on top of it to be respectable members of society and also believers. What, is that going to confuse God?
God knows perfectly what each one does and when He decides to punish whether on this life or on the next, all the witty playing with words will not help. Go and convince God then that marriage is not sex or sex is not marriage. What a good laugh He must be having! astaghfirullah.
Salaam
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That is the society you get when you separate sex from marriage
Salam
p/s The issue is not about the element of "sex is separated from marriage", but whether "sex is marriage". It is not the same, and there are differences between these two issues.
Peace.
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Of course you are making sex and marriage two separate things. And in logical expression they have a biunivocal correspondence. You can call what I say whatever, but I really laugh at it, because you are throwing all the balls off the court. That way you can keep discussing me till the ned fo the world. I will not last that long. I think I have made clear what I get from Qur'an, if there is nothing new, I see not need to repeat myself ad nauseam.
Salaam