Gay and Muslim?
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Peace
Would you consider pedophilia and bestiality to be neurotypical? Psychological disorders within a sexual context DO exist. So, there is a potential, of homosexuality fitting this description. Perhaps. Why not? After all, research is limited on both sides of the debate. There seems to be a conscious effort in trying to identify a gene that would resolve this dilemma, albeit unsuccessfully. Yet, very little research is being conducted from those who wish to investigate from the "nurture" perspective. Of course, this is because there is a clear bias against those folks. When the APA isn't on your side, then nothing is going to materialize.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Homosexuality is either allowed or not allowed. If it is not allowed, it is clearly and directly stated. If it is allowed (that is to say, not prohibited), it is up to individual judgment. Unless homosexuality can be shown to be clearly prohibited, individual judgment should not be substituted for the instructions of ALLAH.
Where does the Qur'an state that homosexuality is a sin? Where is anything else forbidden indirectly? AQ is fully detailed, and ALLAH is direct with instructions, including prohibitions and restrictions.
If a person feels that it is approaching lewdness, then that person, being responsible for themself, should avoid it. That's it--there is no decree against homosexuality.
I'll (re)post an argument below
Acknowledge that AQ is not ridiculous.
Acknowledge that physical evidence is not ridiculous.
Refute that ALLAH created people differently, as is stated in AQ 3022.
Refute that ALLAH gave us signs in nature, as is stated in AQ 226 and 2164.
Refute that ALLAH created homosexual animals, as are found in nature.
Refute that AQ 2929 lists reasons aside from male homosexuality that the people of Lot might have been destroyed.
Refute that the women among the people of Lot were innocent of male-male sex.
Refute that women and children among the people of Lot were destroyed alongside the men among the people of Lot.
Refute that there is no compulsion in the Deen, as is stated in AQ 2256.
Refute that homosexuality is depicted in cave paintings that physically exist that have been dated to be around 12,000 years old.
Refute that homosexuality existed at least 5,000 years ago among humans in Mesopotamia, as is found among physical existing evidence.
Refute that the people of Lot were destroyed around 1953 BCE.
Refute that circa 3000 BCE is before 1953 BCE.
Refute that over a thousand years span the time between the recorded homosexual acts in Mesopotamia and the time that the people of Lot were destroyed.
Refute that AQ 780 refers to lewdness "such as none of the worlds had done before."
Acknowledge that no person alive was present among the people of Lot.
Refute that AQ 1736 states not to uphold what one has no knowledge of.
Acknowledge that physical evidence can comprise knowledge.
Acknowledge that knowledge is better than conjecture.
Refute that AQ 1059 and 16116 state that it is wrong to forbid what ALLAH has not forbidden, that doing so is a lie, and that those who invent lies about ALLAH will not succeed.
In any case, I'm pretty sure that all can agree that promiscuity and acting on unbridled lust fall within the understanding of what is prohibited--homosexuality/bisexuality is not a "blank check" to indulge in what is prohibited.
However, dislike of homosexuality/homosexual acts is not a blank check to be ugly to other people, either.
It could be that homosexual acts are a minor offence--but I can't make this claim. Even so
5332 They avoid major sins and lewdness, except for minor offences. Your Lord is with vast forgiveness. He has been fully aware of you since He initiated you from the earth, and while you were embryos in the wombs of your mothers. Therefore, do not ascribe purity to yourselves; He is fully aware of the righteous.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Peace
Is this a Qur'an only forum?
It seems too many diversions, fallacy, wishful thinking, ignoring issues and blank denials.
I hope to see relevant or direct authority from the Qur'an, and not wishful thinking or opinions. (refer here and here)
Have you seen the one who takes as his god his own desire?
Then would you be responsible for him?
(2543), and (4523)Tell the believing men to reduce of their vision
and guard their private parts
(2430); (235); (3335)And those who guard their private parts
Except from their wives <- ie. is referring to marriages
or those their right hands possess
for indeed, they are not to be blamed
But whoever seeks beyond that
then they are the transgressors
(7029-31) -
Psychological disorders within a sexual context DO exist.
Salam
Therefore the issue is can a "psychological or mentally disorders" person be a Muslim?
We are discussing about crazy peoples, right?
(Lot's nation could now raise a defense of "psychological or mental disorders"I wanted to ask if a person can be gay and Muslim?
Secondly,
Why the laws (human and religious) are seriously dealing with the issue of "psychological or mental disorders" person as if human rights in relation to marriage etc?
Should these peoples fall under the Mental Disorders Act or any mental health related legislations? Mental institutions? )
This thread can't be serious right? yes
Peace peace
-
Greetings and Peace, all group
My comments are in red.
Salam
You are saying gay is a Muslim. (refer here)
My statement was clear and succinct. Homosexuals can be muslim.
Can you please provide/explain on the following issues and ayats
- The definition of "Muslim" according to the Qur'an
A muslim is one who submits themself to ALLAH.
- The authority that confirmed the munafiqoon and mushrikeen is a Muslim.
?
- The privilege over Muhammad? (REFER HERE)
There is no privilege. There is an issue with many translations, abetted by "tradition", where people think that food must have the name of ALLAH pronounced over it. This is false, as has been demonstrated. ALLAH must be remembered before the food is partaken.
- The definition of "marriage" and the supporting ayat for "same-sex marriage".
Marriage is undefined in AQ; the word is self explanatory.
- If there is no ayat to support "same-sex marriage", what is the relevance of the following ayats
Tell the believing men to reduce of their vision
and guard their private parts
(2430); (235); (3335)And those who guard their private parts
Except from their wives
or those their right hands possess
for indeed, they are not to be blamed
But whoever seeks beyond that
then they are the transgressors
(7029-31)In a nutshell, it says to be faithful to one's spouse/mate, to not lust after others or cause others to lust after oneself. Btw, many translations translate as "be modest" or "guard their chastity" instead of "guard their private parts."
Further, consider AQ 424.
424 And the independent from the women, except those maintained by your oaths; the book of GOD over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be independent, not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree on after the obligation. GOD is Knowledgeable, Wise.
Peace
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
-
Greetings and Peace, all group
My comments are in red.
Salam
It seems too many diversions, fallacy, wishful thinking, ignoring issues and blank denials.
I hope to see relevant or direct authority from the Qur'an, and not wishful thinking or opinions. (refer here and here)
The prohibition of homosexuality
And those who guard their private parts <- see below
Except from their wives <- referring to marriages
or those their right hands possess
for indeed, they are not to be blamed
But whoever seeks beyond that
then they are the transgressors <- Is transgressor a Muslim?
(7029-31)The word "wives" is an inference for the "institution of marriage", and the word "Except" is the "exclusion principle"; ie. which excludes all acts other than "marriages" or "those their right hands possess" as illegal; transgressions, an act that goes against the Qur'an and Islam.
Therefore...
Can you please provide/explain on the following issues and ayats
...
- The definition of "marriage" and the supporting ayat for "same-sex marriage".
OR, if they are psychologically and mentally sick person...
can a "psychological or mentally disorders" person be a Muslim? <- madman
The Quran and Islam are not for madman but for people of sound mind; accordingly, the title of a Muslim. (367)
(so as children or people who don't reach puberty)nor is there any burden on the sick
Secondly,
Btw, many translations translate as "be modest" or "guard their chastity" instead of "guard their private parts."
For the sake of simplification, assuming your argument is true, so it does not include private parts? It means to guard everything other than our private parts? Funny .. yes
Peace
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I'm not trying to put across facts here, but this is purely my own reasoning on the issue. I do not see how homosexuality could ever be considered halal or acceptable in Islam.
Since when would sex between two males be ok??
Or two females for that matter.
Also where is there any authorization for same sex marriage? Since if a couple are not married, then you are in an act of lewdness. I'm pretty sure being in a full and loving relationship means more than just holding hands. When the Quran talks about marriage partners it is talking from the perspective of the man, and what kind of women he can marry. No mention of same sex marriage!Remember also the Quran did not do away with all that was relative before under Abraham and following prophets. Where have any past books shown support or encouragement for homosexuality??
There is no evidence either that a person is born gay, therefore it is natural. If you want to use that logic, then you have to say that perhaps pedophiles are also born that way and cannot help who they are attracted to, so should we say then, ok its natural so it's ok??
It is a sexual preference developed and nurtured due to many factors and influences, experiences, upbringing etc.
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In light of verse 3335, I believe Muslims are to marry only opposite sex. HOWEVER, this doesn't mean that God has prohibited same-sex marriage entirely. If it was, God would have CLEARLY said "Prohibited to you for marriage are your same sex." Remember, the Quran is CLEAR AND DETAILED, with NO DOUBT.
I believe you can be gay and Muslim. In this case, a male muslim is male by sex but feminine in gender. In order to comply to verse 3335, he must therefore marry an opposite sex, yet find a partner complementary to his/her GENDER. (Gender is the identity of masculinity and femininity. It is not the biological sex)
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In light of verse 3335, I believe Muslims are to marry only opposite sex. HOWEVER, this doesn't mean that God has prohibited same-sex marriage entirely. If it was, God would have CLEARLY said "Prohibited to you for marriage are your same sex." Remember, the Quran is CLEAR AND DETAILED, with NO DOUBT.
I believe you can be gay and Muslim. In this case, a male muslim is male by sex but feminine in gender. In order to comply to verse 3335, he must therefore marry an opposite sex, yet find a partner complementary to his/her GENDER. (Gender is the identity of masculinity and femininity. It is not the biological sex)
I totally disagree with you. The Quran does not need to state that same sex marriage is not acceptable if it goes on to list what IS acceptable ie, marriage to a member of the opposite sex (which id does state), then what possible conclusion can you draw from that, other than same sex marriage is not accepted?
One has to apply some logic too and basic common sense. God has only listed marriage partners as those from the opposite sex. Therefore these are the ONLY people we can take as partners. And that has to be in the bond of a marriage. So where is the support for same sex marriage, and sexual relations between members of the same sex? Do not use todays hedonistic do as thou wilt liberalistic mantra for reasoning, because we are to obey god and obey his guidance not reinterpret it by today's standards and morals. show me where these acts are permitted and accepted? Because all I see with regards to marriage (marriage being the only means of 2 people having a relationship) is that it's only permissible between members of the opposite sex, and not the same sex.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
701 Someone asked about the inevitable retribution.
702 For the rejecters, there is nothing that will stop it.
703 From GOD, Possessor of the ascending portals.
704 The angels and the Spirit ascend to Him in a day which is equivalent to fifty thousand years.
705 So be patient with a good patience.
706 They see it as far away.
707 And We see it as near.
708 On the Day the heaven is like molten copper.
709 And the mountains are like wool.
7010 And no friend will ask about his friend.
7011 When they see it, the criminal will wish he can ransom his children against the retribution.
7012 And his mate and his brother.
7013 And his relatives who sheltered him.
7014 And all who are on the earth, so that he can be saved!
7015 No, it is a torching flame.
7016 Eager to roast.
7017 It calls on those who turned away.
7018 And who hoarded and counted.
7019 Indeed, man was created anxious.
7020 When adversity touches him he is miserable.
7021 And when good touches him he is stingy.
7022 Except for those who make the contact prayer.
7023 Who always observe their contact prayer.
7024 And those who set aside part of their wealth.
7025 For the seeker and the denied.
7026 And those who believe in the Day of Judgment.
7027 And those who are fearful of the retribution of their Lord.
7028 The retribution of their Lord is not to be taken for granted.
7029 And those who keep covered their private parts.
7030 Except around their spouses or those maintained by their oaths, there is no blame.
7031 Whoever seeks anything beyond this, they are the transgressors.
7032 And those who look after what they have been entrusted to and to their pledges.
7033 And those who uphold their testimonies.
7034 And those who maintain their contact prayer.
7035 They will be honored in gardens.
7036 So what is wrong with the rejecters staring at you?
7037 From the right and the left, in crowds?
7038 Does every one of them hope to enter a garden of bliss?
7039 No, We have created them from what they know.
7040 So I do swear by the Lord of the east and the west, that We are able.
7041 To replace them with better people, We can never be defeated.
7042 So let them talk in vain and play, until they meet their Day which they are promised.
7043 When they will come out of the graves in a rush, as if they are racing towards a goal.
7044 Their eyes are cast down, with shame covering them. This is the Day which they were promised.Has everybody noticed that the context of the above verses is not marriage?
http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/70/29/default.htm
422 And do not marry who your fathers had married from the women, except what has already been done. It is a lewdness, and an abhorrence, and an evil path.
423 Forbidden for you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and the sisters of your father, and the sisters of your mother, and the daughters of your brother, and the daughters of your sister, and your foster mothers who suckled you, and your sisters from suckling, and the mothers of your women, and your step-daughters who are in your lodgings from your women with whom you have already consummated the marriage; if you have not consummated the marriage then there is no sin upon you; and those who were in wedlock with your sons who are from your seed, and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done. GOD is Forgiving, Merciful.
424 And the independent from the women, except those maintained by your oaths; the book of GOD over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be independent, not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree on after the obligation. GOD is Knowledgeable, Wise.
425 And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the independent female believers, then from those maintained by your oaths of the believing young women. And GOD is more aware of your faith, some of you to each other. You shall marry them with the permission of their parents and give them their dowries in kindness; to be independent, not for illicit sex or taking lovers. When they become independent, then any of them who come with lewdness shall have half of what is the punishment for those independent. This is for those who are concerned about deviating from among you. But if you are patient it is better for you, and GOD is Forgiver, Merciful.
The verses immediately above ARE about marriage. Permitted is what is beyond this, so long as it is not for illicit sex. Interesting! !
I do wonder why so many seek to divert homosexuals from the Path of ALLAH. Is it to make themselves look better by putting others down? Is it fear--that they'll "catch the gay" maybe )? Is it to distract themselves from doing good works? Maybe it is blindly following tradition.
If homosexuality isn't for you--then don't do it! Others have their own way of life. Live and let live.
Diverting others is not part of the Deen--we are to invite. Insulting others is not part of the Deen--we are to be kind. Oppressing others is not part of the Deen--we are to fight oppression. Following tradition is not part of the Deen--we are to follow the Deen and listen to the best of what is being said. What is the best of what is being said in this case?
It could very well be that diverting others from the Deen and/or insulting others and/or oppressing others is worse in the sight of ALLAH than homosexuality (if homosexuality is even bad)!
Homosexuality is found in all known species that reproduce sexually.
"... No species has been found in which homosexual behaviour has not been shown to exist, with the exception of species that never have sex at all, such as sea urchins and aphis. Moreover, a part of the animal kingdom is hermaphroditic, truly bisexual. For them, homosexuality is not an issue."
source http//www.news-medical.net/news/2006/10/23/20718.aspx
The most current scientific and medical theories (no laws in science, only theory) concede that homosexuality is normal.
The longstanding consensus of the behavioral and social sciences and the health and mental health professions is that homosexuality per se is a normal and positive variation of human sexual orientation (Bell, Weinberg & Hammersmith, 1981; Bullough, 1976; Ford & Beach 1951 ; Kinsey, Pomeroy, & Martin, 1948; Kinsey, Pomeroy, Martin, & Gebhard, 1953 ).
http//www.apa.org/about/governance/council/policy/sexual-orientation.aspx
Which is better, facts or conjecture?
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
-
Salam Abdul-Hadi,
Firstly, I have answered and give reasons for your questions but why you are diverting and not answering my questions?
Do you expect to reasons with diversions, fallacy, wishful thinking, ignoring issues and blank denials? (REFER HERE)
REFER HERE (need answer)
- The prohibition of homosexuality
- The issue of same-sex marriage etc
- The issue of whether a "psychological or mentally disorders" person can be a Muslim.
Secondly,
Greetings and Peace, all group
701 Someone asked about the inevitable retribution.
702 For the rejecters, there is nothing that will stop it.
703 From GOD, Possessor of the ascending portals.
704 The angels and the Spirit ascend to Him in a day which is equivalent to fifty thousand years.
705 So be patient with a good patience.
706 They see it as far away.
707 And We see it as near.
708 On the Day the heaven is like molten copper.
709 And the mountains are like wool.
7010 And no friend will ask about his friend.
7011 When they see it, the criminal will wish he can ransom his children against the retribution.
7012 And his mate and his brother.
7013 And his relatives who sheltered him.
7014 And all who are on the earth, so that he can be saved!
7015 No, it is a torching flame.
7016 Eager to roast.
7017 It calls on those who turned away.
7018 And who hoarded and counted.
7019 Indeed, man was created anxious.
7020 When adversity touches him he is miserable.
7021 And when good touches him he is stingy.
7022 Except for those who make the contact prayer.
7023 Who always observe their contact prayer.
7024 And those who set aside part of their wealth.
7025 For the seeker and the denied.
7026 And those who believe in the Day of Judgment.
7027 And those who are fearful of the retribution of their Lord.
7028 The retribution of their Lord is not to be taken for granted.
7029 And those who keep covered their private parts.
7030 Except around their spouses or those maintained by their oaths, there is no blame.
7031 Whoever seeks anything beyond this, they are the transgressors.
7032 And those who look after what they have been entrusted to and to their pledges.
7033 And those who uphold their testimonies.
7034 And those who maintain their contact prayer.
7035 They will be honored in gardens.
7036 So what is wrong with the rejecters staring at you?
7037 From the right and the left, in crowds?
7038 Does every one of them hope to enter a garden of bliss?
7039 No, We have created them from what they know.
7040 So I do swear by the Lord of the east and the west, that We are able.
7041 To replace them with better people, We can never be defeated.
7042 So let them talk in vain and play, until they meet their Day which they are promised.
7043 When they will come out of the graves in a rush, as if they are racing towards a goal.
7044 Their eyes are cast down, with shame covering them. This is the Day which they were promised.Has everybody noticed that the context of the above verses is not marriage?
RED is mine
Of course it is not, look at the pattern of the message.. Allah has made a comparison of those who are disbelievers and believers.
Which category you want to be?
A transgressor?
Refer here for the direct authority or ayat prohibiting homosexuality.
Thirdly,
422 And do not marry who your fathers had married from the women, except what has already been done. It is a lewdness, and an abhorrence, and an evil path.
423 Forbidden for you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and the sisters of your father, and the sisters of your mother, and the daughters of your brother, and the daughters of your sister, and your foster mothers who suckled you, and your sisters from suckling, and the mothers of your women, and your step-daughters who are in your lodgings from your women with whom you have already consummated the marriage; if you have not consummated the marriage then there is no sin upon you; and those who were in wedlock with your sons who are from your seed, and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done. GOD is Forgiving, Merciful.
424 And the independent from the women, except those maintained by your oaths; the book of GOD over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be independent, not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree on after the obligation. GOD is Knowledgeable, Wise.
425 And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the independent female believers, then from those maintained by your oaths of the believing young women. And GOD is more aware of your faith, some of you to each other. You shall marry them with the permission of their parents and give them their dowries in kindness; to be independent, not for illicit sex or taking lovers. When they become independent, then any of them who come with lewdness shall have half of what is the punishment for those independent. This is for those who are concerned about deviating from among you. But if you are patient it is better for you, and GOD is Forgiver, Merciful.
The verses immediately above ARE about marriage. Permitted is what is beyond this, so long as it is not for illicit sex. Interesting! !
RED is mine
I don't understand how you are able to interpret the ayat as an authority for homosexuality and same-sex marriage.
Do you able to read the word "YOU" (man), "WOMEN" and "MARRIAGE" in the ayat? nope
Fourthly,
I do wonder why so many seek to divert homosexuals from the Path of ALLAH.
Homosexuality is the path of Allah? wow
You can't be serious, right?
Making such a bold claim in the name of Allah without any clear authority from the Qur'an, and entirely based on the reports from disbelievers?
Unimaginable, for any Muslim...
I don't know what you do to deserve all this.
If you cannot give a direct authority, can you at least prove with one story from the Qur'an showing any Prophets or Believers who are homosexual before making any claims that you might be regretted?
Fifthly,
Homosexuality is found in all known species that reproduce sexually.
Understood, so you wish human beings to be animal or madman, or chimpanzee and apes, maybe?
The Quran and Islam are not for madman but for people of sound mind; accordingly, the title of a Muslim. (367)
(so as children or people who don't reach puberty)and.. animals! !
Lastly,
If homosexuality isn't for you--then don't do it! Others have their own way of life. Live and let live.
Do you understand what is the issue? hmm (refer here)
I wanted to ask if a person can be gay and Muslim?
Who does make the objection or promoting hate against homosexuality? None! (refer here)
Peace peace
-
Remember, the Quran is CLEAR AND DETAILED, with NO DOUBT.
Salam
The Qur'an is very clear and detailed by using the method of "exclusionary principle". Therefore the rules in the Qur'an are very precise and direct. Of course, there are other methods.
For example..
-
Marriage (refer here)
-
No Polygamy - "We have made lawful to you (Muhammad) your wives (ie. more than one, doesn't matter to us if 100 or 1,000.. what matter is more than one) ... only for you, excluding the believers." - (refer here)
-
Usury - "Allah has permitted trade and has forbidden interest" (2275) - all things that are not falling in the category of trade are usury. Therefore find out what is trade according to the Qur'an, and the opposite is a usury. The rule is very clear and detailed.
-
Drinking of camel urine - "eat of what Allah has provided for you lawful and good" (16114) - "eat" is related everything that are entering into our mouth, whether it is for pleasure or medical purposes. Whatever entered into our mouth must not only be lawful, but must be considered as good things to be taken as food, even if it is intended for medical purposes.
-
Definition of believers - "None dispute concerning the communications of Allah but those who disbelieve" (404). Therefore, those who disobey or iqtiqad against the "DO NOT" prohibition in the Qur'an etc is not a believer or muslim (refer here and here). The rule is very simple, clear and detailed, as to who are the real muslim and non-muslim (37).
Simple, clear and very detailed.. no doubt! yes
Peace
-
-
Greetings and Peace, all group
My comments are in red.
Salam Abdul-Hadi,
Firstly, I have answered and give reasons for your questions but why you are diverting and not answering my questions?
These are the first questions addressed to Abdul-Hadi. You are of course welcome to answer the simple questions that I've posted, although they were not directed at any person in particular.
The questions tend to be yes or no type questions--if you've answered them, where are your answers?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg339943#msg339943
Do you expect to reasons with diversions, fallacy, wishful thinking, ignoring issues and blank denials? (REFER HERE)
Is that what you call the verses of AQ?
REFER HERE (need answer)
- The prohibition of homosexuality
A transgressor can be a muslim. Just like everybody else, they will be called into account for their transgressions, ISA.
- The issue of same-sex marriage etc
Eyes are for seeing. The answer to this question is posted here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg339946#msg339946
The answer there, reposted here, is this "In a nutshell, it says to be faithful to one's spouse/mate, to not lust after others or cause others to lust after oneself. Btw, many translations translate as "be modest" or "guard their chastity" instead of "guard their private parts.""
- The issue of whether a "psychological or mentally disorders" person can be a Muslim.
Absolutely yes. Why would this even be an issue?
4817 There is no burden on the blind, nor is there any burden on the cripple, nor is there any burden on the sick. And whoever obeys GOD and His messenger, He will admit them into gardens with rivers flowing beneath them; and whoever turns away, He will punish him with a painful retribution.
Secondly,
RED is mine
Of course it is not, look at the pattern of the message.. Allah has made a comparison of those who are disbelievers and believers.
Here is the crux of the issue where marriage IS addressed, all beyond what is prohibited is specifically allowed.
424 And the independent from the women, except those maintained by your oaths; the book of GOD over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be independent, not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree on after the obligation. GOD is Knowledgeable, Wise.
Which category you want to be?
A transgressor?
Refer here for the direct authority or ayat prohibiting homosexuality.
Please state which word or words means "homosexual" in this verse!
Thirdly,
RED is mine
I don't understand how you are able to interpret the ayat as an authority for homosexuality and same-sex marriage.
Do you able to read the word "YOU" (man), "WOMEN" and "MARRIAGE" in the ayat? nope
Okay, you admit that you don't understand. Not a problem.
Fourthly,
Homosexuality is the path of Allah? wow
You can't be serious, right?
Reading is fundamental. I said divert homosexuals from the Path of ALLAH--big difference from homosexuality being the Path of ALLAH. Stating that homosexuals can't be muslim is one example of diverting.
Making such a bold claim in the name of Allah without any clear authority from the Qur'an, and entirely based on the reports from disbelievers?
Unimaginable, for any Muslim...
I don't know what you do to deserve all this.
If you cannot give a direct authority, can you at least prove with one story from the Qur'an showing any Prophets or Believers who are homosexual before making any claims that you might be regretted?
Can you give an example of modern medicine or computers in AQ? It could be that homosexuality is not important to the Deen.
Fifthly,
Understood, so you wish human beings to be animal or madman, or chimpanzee and apes, maybe? )
and.. animals! !
226 GOD does not shy away from putting forth the example of a mosquito, or anything above it. As for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord. As for the rejecters, they say "What does GOD intend with this example?" He strays many by it, and He guides many by it; but He only strays by it the wicked.
Lastly,
Do you understand what is the issue? hmm (refer here)
I'm very well aware of the issue. Some people want to exclude homosexuals from the Deen.
Who does make the objection or promoting hate against homosexuality? None! (refer here)
If the shoe fits, wear it. If it doesn't apply to you, perhaps it applies to others?
Peace peace
My position is one of inclusion. Homosexuals are welcome in the Deen. If a person wants to exclude others from the Deen, they'd better be VERY sure about their reasons and grounds for doing so--sure enough to risk damnation on the Day of Judgment. Choose wisely. We are not to oppress anybody, not even those that clearly fall outside of the Deen.
2137 So, if they believe exactly as you have believed, then they are guided; but if they turn away, then they are in opposition and GOD will suffice you against them, and He is the Hearer, the Knower.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Greetings and Peace, all group
My comments are in red.
Salam
As usual, none of your answers have reference to any clear authority from the Qur'an (Muhkamat), and neither it is answering the issue or able to respond to logical minds. It is just a blank denial, diversion and wishful thinking, which is not "reasoning", but a "dogma" and as the majority are practising it today; ie. the system of belief which cannot or refused to be tested as being true or false, good reasoning or a fallacy; eg. the dogma of drinking camel urine ... and an example of poor reasoning, for contradicting with own conclusion or argument.
First statement
nor is there any burden on the sick.
Contradictory statement
- The issue of whether a "psychological or mentally disorders" person can be a Muslim.
Absolutely yes. Why would this even be an issue?
Why there are contradiction? Because a Muslim (submitter) has duties and must take responsibilities for his action, while there are no obligations on the "mentally and psychologically sick person - madman" (refer here and here). Madman doesn't understand faith, and what is right or wrong.
And say
The truth is from your Lord
so whoever wills
let him believe
and whoever wills
let him disbelieve
(1829)Good luck! yes
Peace. peace
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Greetings and Peace, all group
My comments are in red.
Salam
As usual, none of your answers have reference to any clear authority from the Qur'an (Muhkamat), and neither it is answering the issue or able to respond to logical minds. It is just a blank denial, diversion and wishful thinking, which is not "reasoning", but a "dogma" and as the majority are practising it today; ie. the system of belief which cannot or refused to be tested as being true or false, good reasoning or a fallacy; eg. the dogma of drinking camel urine ... and an example of poor reasoning, for contradicting with own conclusion or argument.
No less than four complete verses were quoted in my last message. This message being quoted has two partial verses and neglects to answer previous questions raised. AQ 4817 as a whole verse is in particular is germane to the discussion.
4817 There is no burden on the blind, nor is there any burden on the cripple, nor is there any burden on the sick. And whoever obeys GOD and His messenger, He will admit them into gardens with rivers flowing beneath them; and whoever turns away, He will punish him with a painful retribution.
"Whoever" does not exclude, does it? hmm
First statement
Contradictory statement
My "contradictory statement" is straight from the Qur'an!
Why there are contradiction? Because a Muslim (submitter) has duties and must take responsibilities for his action, while there are no obligations on the "mentally and psychologically sick person - madman" (refer here and here). Madman doesn't understand faith, and what is right or wrong.
You do understand that there are degrees of disability/sickness, right? So long as a person does to the best of their ability, ISA, ALLAH will accept them.
And say
The truth is from your Lord
so whoever wills
let him believe
and whoever wills
let him disbelieve
(1829)Would you tell to a homosexual who wills to believe, then, that they can't be part of the Deen? Isn't a homosexual also part of "whoever"?
Good luck! yes
The same to you.
Peace. peace
6150 Say "Bring forth your witnesses who bear witness that GOD has made this unlawful." If they bear witness, then do not bear witness with them, nor follow the desires of those who deny Our revelations, and those who do not believe in the Hereafter; and they make equals with their Lord!
Bonus points http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.
peace
Abdul-Hadi
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Greetings and Peace, all group
My comments are in red.
6150 Say "Bring forth your witnesses who bear witness that GOD has made this unlawful." If they bear witness, then do not bear witness with them, nor follow the desires of those who deny Our revelations, and those who do not believe in the Hereafter; and they make equals with their Lord!
Bonus points http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.
peace
Abdul-Hadi
You seem to be pulling verses out in support of your claims but I see no relevance, none in fact. I'm sure we can all agree that beating or killing homosexuals is not right and Allah will of course deal with those who have done wrong and.gone against his.guidelines but please do not misuse Quranic verses out of context and misinterpret them to support your point of view.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Everybody must use their own best understanding.
Bring the verses that state homosexuality is prohibited. Please highlight the words that mean homosexual.
As a counterpoint, I present the following verses
226 GOD does not shy away from putting forth the example of a mosquito, or anything above it. As for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord. As for the rejecters, they say "What does GOD intend with this example?" He strays many by it, and He guides many by it; but He only strays by it the wicked.
2164 Surely, in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the differences between the night and the day, and the ships that sail in the sea for the benefit of the people, and what GOD has sent down of water from the sky so He brings the earth back to life after it had died, and He sent forth from it every creature, and the dispatching of the winds and the clouds that have been designated between the earth and the sky are signs for a people who comprehend.
Since homosexuality is found in all known sexual species, including mosquitos, these are relevant verses. ALLAH made homosexual animals, including homosexual humans.
424 And the independent from the women, except those maintained by your oaths; the book of GOD over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be independent, not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree on after the obligation. GOD is Knowledgeable, Wise.
So, is a homosexual relationship beyond this, or not? Yes or no, please.
3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom GOD has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.
Don't make up your mind in advance. Modern medicine and modern psychology accepts homosexuality as natural and normal...and has dated homosexuality in humans and human society thousands of years before the people of Lot.
4817 There is no burden on the blind, nor is there any burden on the cripple, nor is there any burden on the sick. And whoever obeys GOD and His messenger, He will admit them into gardens with rivers flowing beneath them; and whoever turns away, He will punish him with a painful retribution.
If homosexuality is some type of ailment, it doesn't matter insofar as the Deen is concerned.
494 O you who believe, if you go forth in the cause of GOD, you shall investigate carefully. And do not say to those who greet you with peace "You are not a believer!" You are seeking the vanity of this world; but with GOD are many riches. That is how you were before, but GOD graced you, so investigate carefully. GOD is expert over what you do.
Followers of the Deen have absolutely NO authority to declare who is not a believer.
10109 And follow what is being inspired to you and be patient until GOD judges. And He is the best of judges.
Live and let live. Master your own life before attempting to tell people how to live their lives.
16116 And do not say, as to what your tongues falsely describe "This is lawful, and that is forbidden;" that you seek to invent lies about GOD. Those who invent lies about GOD will not succeed.
Self explanatory.
2256 There is no compulsion in the system; the proper way has been clarified from the wrong way. Whoever rejects evil, and believes in GOD, indeed he has taken grasp of the strongest hold that will never break. GOD is Hearer, Knower.
Don't force people to your understanding/beliefs.
Present what Qur'anic evidence there is that homosexuality is forbidden, any who make that claim. Please provide the complete verses and not just links to them.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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I rezally do not know why people want that things that are not said be said. God's gives a lot of guidance in the Qur'an and in ourselves, but if he does nto want to explicitly prohibit something or allow something why do we have to make a problem of it? Why do we need that He does say this is not forbidden or this is forbidden. If God keep silent on something why should we insist on wrenching from Him a this forbidden or this is not forbidden. There are many things that are in the shade, not just this "gay" blown out question. With abortion it is even clear the insistence and the wrenching and trying to mil a prohibition or a statement of it is nto prohibited in the Qur'an. Why do we want that? ?Do we not have enough of guidance without that? We do have guidance, but it seems we must be suffering from infantilism when we need that a daddy keeps all the time telling us what we should and should not do like permanent little kids unable to reflect, to ponder to think through properly our own situations and get counsel, proper counsel and not the childish yoy can't or you can because I say so. It is always our decisions in whatever circumstances we find ourselves and we respond to God directly our our motives, intentions, purposes... He has given us that freedom, that kingdom of own decision, why should we want by all means to get an all-purpose do or don't explicit when God wants us to go further than that, to struggle within ourselves and for ourselves to find our own way back to Him.
As to "gay" or not gay being natural, excuse me, but that is nonsense. Very few things are natural or unchangeable in the human species. Some things are more ingrained or more difficult to cut through, but natural there is very very little, and even the natural is absolutely conditionned by mores and circumstances and default beliefs in whatever situation. Murder and incest are also natural, and prostitution, and what not. It is not something that is invented by tendencies or temptations very natural in themselves. That is no argument at all.
Of course, each community can legislate on anything according to what it may feel are its needs, but we should not attribute to God what a people may find convenient or not.
One things is in the Qur'an people are instructed not to pry on the privacy of others. Sexual mores are a matter of privacy. People should keep those things private, not make exhibitions, nor should people be indiscreet trying to glimpse into others privacy or tearing it apart. The sura An-Nur has been very much discussed when it comes to imposing by hook or crook a "dressing-code on women or dealing with the punishment of adultery, it is a pity that those ayas after aya 9 of the sura dealing with privacy and gossip and slander are nto so much remembered when they are far more damning for the guilty of those deeds than any of the others. There are both things people should keep private private, and people should not delve into anybody else's privacy. When God speaks about four witnesses it is nto for nothing. Four witnesses may be a hint that people are not discreet in keeping their privacy. On the other hand spreading what one may have seen or known and has not been ment to be public by the doers is condemnned very strongly.
The feelings of people are one thing, the deeds of exhibition of privacy is something else, and the prying of the people's privacy something else.
It is up to every person in his or her circumstances to reflect or consider throughly or seek help in order to deal with the conflicts and difficulties of his or her own destiny, it is his or her task as a human being that must return to God, but for that there are things which the Qur'an does nto say it is prohibited or it is not prohibited. God knows we don't.
But again, it is each person that decides, and it is up to each person to seek the guidance, very abundant guidance found int he Qur'an and not follow fashion or common "knowledge" or whatever flatters one more. It is to God that we will return, not to fashion or the worldly powers that be.
Salaam
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Peace all
The Qur'an is very clear and detailed by using the method of "exclusionary principle". Therefore the rules in the Qur'an are very precise and direct.
GENERAL RULE The prohibition of homosexuality is very clear and detailed in the Qur'an
Allah has permitted "marriage" and has forbidden everything else. (refer here and here)
Therefore, it is prohibited since there is no such things as "same-sex-marriage" in the Qur'an.
Adam is not gay, Eve is not a lesbian, and so as any other Prophets or any Believers in the Qur'an. (17).
Homosexuality is the acts and represents the disbelievers in the Qur'an (2929).An analogy; a marriage that is prohibited even between opposite sex..
The fornicator does not marry
except a fornicator or polytheist <- not a muslim, and will never be
and none marries her
except a fornicator or a polytheistand that has been made
unlawful to the believers <- Why "marriage" is unlawful to the believers?
(243)The only argument to allow homosexuality is insanity; ie. a psychologically and mentally disordered person, and because of reliance (faith) on some scientific reports on 1-2 species of animals (hadith) and by a very few small group of scientists (Bukhari), while ignoring trillion of other living creatures, clear words of Allah, clear facts from the Qur'an (378), and ignoring the issue of "righteous conducts" and factors of human population. It is unnatural to the whole system of life, and let it be in some animals' way of life. We are not animals, and the real reason Allah creates goods and bad things so that we can use our mind, differentiate what is right and wrong, and not for us to blindly follow what is unjust to ourselves (eg. 2567, refer here).
Rather, they have denied that
which they encompass not in knowledge
and whose interpretation <- refer to (37)
has not yet come to themThus did those before them deny
Then observe how was the end of the wrongdoers
(1039)In conclusion, a very poor methodology and reasoning with extensive contradictions; except the defence of insanity. There is no obligation for an insane person to comply with the Deen of Islam and standard of true human beings; different leagues (cf. defence of insanity in criminal prosecution). Besides, why the Qur'an should waste the space and mention specific rules for the insane persons and the animals? They have no rules, Enjoy Yourselves! yes
Salam handshake