Gay and Muslim?
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Peace abdulhadi, all.
One thing is very clear in Qoran.--SEXUAL MISCONDUCT"-. is forbidden!
Sura 12 (Joseph-Yousuf) and Sura 24 (Light -Al-Noor) like all the other suras of the Quran, have great lessons for all of us.
In their history, there is a lesson for those who possess intelligence. This is not fabricated Hadith; this (Quran) confirms all previous scriptures, provides the details of everything, and is a beacon and mercy for those who believe.
A sura that we have sent down, and we have decreed as law. We have revealed in it clear revelations, that you may take heed.
We have revealed to you clarifying revelations, and examples from the past generations, and an enlightenment for the righteous.What we are doing is giving our opinions according to our understanding.Sometimes what the Qoran says and what we say differ.
Does Qoran forbid homosexuality? Does it not?
What do certain verses say/mean? For example
Of course it is not up to us to discriminate or judge...
We need to say May the Lord grant us more knowledge so we can understand His message, take it seriously and heed his commands.
Peace to all.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Everybody must use their own best understanding.
Bring the verses that state homosexuality is prohibited. Please highlight the words that mean homosexual.
As a counterpoint, I present the following verses
226 GOD does not shy away from putting forth the example of a mosquito, or anything above it. As for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord. As for the rejecters, they say "What does GOD intend with this example?" He strays many by it, and He guides many by it; but He only strays by it the wicked.
2164 Surely, in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the differences between the night and the day, and the ships that sail in the sea for the benefit of the people, and what GOD has sent down of water from the sky so He brings the earth back to life after it had died, and He sent forth from it every creature, and the dispatching of the winds and the clouds that have been designated between the earth and the sky are signs for a people who comprehend.
Since homosexuality is found in all known sexual species, including mosquitos, these are relevant verses. ALLAH made homosexual animals, including homosexual humans.
424 And the independent from the women, except those maintained by your oaths; the book of GOD over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be independent, not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree on after the obligation. GOD is Knowledgeable, Wise.
So, is a homosexual relationship beyond this, or not? Yes or no, please.
3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom GOD has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.
Don't make up your mind in advance. Modern medicine and modern psychology accepts homosexuality as natural and normal...and has dated homosexuality in humans and human society thousands of years before the people of Lot.
4817 There is no burden on the blind, nor is there any burden on the cripple, nor is there any burden on the sick. And whoever obeys GOD and His messenger, He will admit them into gardens with rivers flowing beneath them; and whoever turns away, He will punish him with a painful retribution.
If homosexuality is some type of ailment, it doesn't matter insofar as the Deen is concerned.
494 O you who believe, if you go forth in the cause of GOD, you shall investigate carefully. And do not say to those who greet you with peace "You are not a believer!" You are seeking the vanity of this world; but with GOD are many riches. That is how you were before, but GOD graced you, so investigate carefully. GOD is expert over what you do.
Followers of the Deen have absolutely NO authority to declare who is not a believer.
10109 And follow what is being inspired to you and be patient until GOD judges. And He is the best of judges.
Live and let live. Master your own life before attempting to tell people how to live their lives.
16116 And do not say, as to what your tongues falsely describe "This is lawful, and that is forbidden;" that you seek to invent lies about GOD. Those who invent lies about GOD will not succeed.
Self explanatory.
2256 There is no compulsion in the system; the proper way has been clarified from the wrong way. Whoever rejects evil, and believes in GOD, indeed he has taken grasp of the strongest hold that will never break. GOD is Hearer, Knower.
Don't force people to your understanding/beliefs.
Present what Qur'anic evidence there is that homosexuality is forbidden, any who make that claim. Please provide the complete verses and not just links to them.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
Present evidence where Gay marriage is accepted? Since a marriage is the only way in Islam, that two people can have a full on relationship. Don't just conjure things up out of thin air, or from your own desires or moral code. Rememeber it is god we serve and him we obey.
And for the record Anal sex is filthy and leads to a lot of disease. I'm pretty sure if you are in a relationship you will not stop at just holding hands? same would go for a Gay couple also. Also what kind of family unit is it with two members of the same sex as parents? There is an imbalance.
And I am sure I remember you saying that if a gay couple, let's say two men have gender roles which replicate a straight couple, so one man is the more femenine and the other takes the male role, then that is halal and acceptable. Get out of here! What gives you the right the edit, misuse, misinterpret and god's guidance and revelation?
As I said in an earlier post, Do not try to integrate Islamic guidelines with today's liberalist hedonistic morality. In the end you will be left with something that no longer resembles islam at all. Your use of Quranic verses to support the homosexual agenda are ridiculous. Being homosexual is a transgression on god's laws and commands. Never has he made it ok for same sex relationships or marriage for that matter. A marriage only takes place between a man and woman. Call this old fashioned but that is how it is. You are in no position to say otherwise because you are not bigger than god. You do not have the luxury to say live and let live or do what you want. As a muslim, as a believer you do what god has instructed you to do. The idea is to gain understanding of and implement god's teachings in to your way of life. What we are not to be doing is, reworking the Quran to fit in with today's morality.
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Peace abdulhadi, all.
One thing is very clear in Qoran.--SEXUAL MISCONDUCT"-. is forbidden!
Does Qoran forbid homosexuality? Does it not?
Of course it is not up to us to discriminate or judge...
We need to say May the Lord grant us more knowledge so we can understand His message, take it seriously and heed his commands.
Peace to all.
Does this ayat have clear distinguishment on sexual morality or is there any ambiguity in it?
- "Verily, you practise your lusts on men instead of women. Nay, but you are a people transgressing beyond bounds."
Salam
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Does this ayat have clear distinguishment on sexual morality or is there any ambiguity in it?
- "Verily, you practise your lusts on men instead of women. Nay, but you are a people transgressing beyond bounds."
Salam
It is totally clear, homosexuality is a transgression and therefore forbidden.
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Peace dr fazl.
When you quote me , please do not leave out the context. You left the following
What do certain verses say/mean? For example
It does make a difference to the meaning/purpose of what I said.
Peace to you
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Peace dr fazl.
When you quote me , please do not leave out the context. You left the following
What do certain verses say/mean? For example
It does make a difference to the meaning/purpose of what I said.
Peace to you
Peace good logic
I took account of your context. The portion I quoted is not to negate you or argue over, I am sorry. I quoted just another ayat only to ascertain if there could be differences in the takes based on 37 say any 'muhkamah' and muthashabiha' if any contribution I can think them all over.
Salam
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Does this ayat have clear distinguishment on sexual morality or is there any ambiguity in it?
- "Verily, you practise your lusts on men instead of women. Nay, but you are a people transgressing beyond bounds."
Salam
781 "You are approaching the men out of desire instead of the women! Indeed, you are a transgressing people."
Homosexuality refers to same-sex attraction. 781 refers to an action--"approaching the men". Also, look at the preceding verse.
780 And Lot, he said to his people "Do you commit lewdness such as none of those of the worlds had done before?"
Homosexuality and homosexual actions long predate the people of Lot. Could it be, perhaps, that approaching people lustfully (men or women) is transgression? ) In this case, 781 can be understood to say that the lust is the transgression, and it is compounded by the fact that it is on the same sex.
This is my understanding.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
Abdul-Hadi
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I doubt that that was the first time sodomy was practised and he general picture I get when I read about the people of Lut is that they were wholesale transgressors, not merely because discreetly they engaged in some kind of same sex intimacy. Lut addresses people not telling them to keep to their wives or seek honest marriage or any of the many injunctions that we see in the Qur'an inviting to righteousness. When a prophet addresses collectively a people it is calling them out for outright and public malfaisance, plotting or something that calls for public condemnation, not for a private sin, because when it is done so it is done in general. So that they went after men and not after women makes it look brazen and ganglike and I do not get either that the fact of doing that to women was good or positive, but that the male part makes it more roguish and bestial, vile vice. If the Qur'an meant to prohibit that it might have said, as for everything else, forbiden is to you to lust after persons of the same sex. May be because lusting after something is unforbiddable, in the sense that you can lust, but provided you do nto act on your lusts nothing is lost. But the thing is that the Qur'an as far as I have seen does not foresee any marital relationship between persons of the same sex, but doe snto state such a thing explicitly, like saying and their will be a horrible punishment in this life or the next, like it says when something is horrible and wicked.
So, it is clear that the guidance is to establish a relationship of honest marriage. We should take the guidance but not go where God has not wanted to go and pry on the intimace of people who may have its personal and private conditions and make of them a public business for busybodies.
I do not consider either that parading one's own sexuality is something to be commended. One should keep that for friends if one needs to confide or for professional helpers committed to such help.
Salaam
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Homosexuality and homosexual actions long predate the people of Lot. Could it be, perhaps, that approaching people lustfully (men or women) is transgression? In this case, 781 can be understood to say that the lust is the transgression, and it is compounded by the fact that it is on the same sex.
This is my understanding.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
Abdul-Hadi
Peace Hadi,
What is your opinion suppose I consider this and withdraw as an onlooker visiting this scene as your confrontation against the Prophet Lut and witness this as your argument directed at Lut s.a.w. considering you as one among the gang of people that thronged the house of The Prophet to insult the Malayika, the honourable visitors?
What is your opinion to this ayat with regard to surrender and obedience?
3336
It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allah and Lut have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allah and Lut, he has indeed strayed in a plain error.Faithfully to Allah.
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I doubt that that was the first time sodomy was practised and he general picture I get when I read about the people of Lut is that they were wholesale transgressors, not merely because discreetly they engaged in some kind of same sex intimacy. Lut addresses people not telling them to keep to their wives or seek honest marriage or any of the many injunctions that we see in the Qur'an inviting to righteousness. When a prophet addresses collectively a people it is calling them out for outright and public malfaisance, plotting or something that calls for public condemnation, not for a private sin, because when it is done so it is done in general. So that they went after men and not after women makes it look brazen and ganglike and I do not get either that the fact of doing that to women was good or positive, but that the male part makes it more roguish and bestial, vile vice. If the Qur'an meant to prohibit that it might have said, as for everything else, forbiden is to you to lust after persons of the same sex. May be because lusting after something is unforbiddable, in the sense that you can lust, but provided you do nto act on your lusts nothing is lost. But the thing is that the Qur'an as far as I have seen does not foresee any marital relationship between persons of the same sex, but doe snto state such a thing explicitly, like saying and their will be a horrible punishment in this life or the next, like it says when something is horrible and wicked.
So, it is clear that the guidance is to establish a relationship of honest marriage. We should take the guidance but not go where God has not wanted to go and pry on the intimace of people who may have its personal and private conditions and make of them a public business for busybodies.
I do not consider either that parading one's own sexuality is something to be commended. One should keep that for friends if one needs to confide or for professional helpers committed to such help.
Salaam
Sane enough!
Peace
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Bold emphasis added to quote, my comments in red.
Peace Hadi,
What is your opinion suppose I consider this and withdraw as an onlooker visiting this scene as your confrontation against the Prophet Lut and witness this as your argument directed at Lut s.a.w. considering you as one among the gang of people that thronged the house of The Prophet to insult the Malayika, the honourable visitors?
What is your opinion to this ayat with regard to surrender and obedience?
My opinion is that the above is an ad hominem attack.
3336
It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allah and Lut have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allah and Lut, he has indeed strayed in a plain error.My opinion is that this is NOT what the verse says, and that it is unlawful to change a verse. Although Lot/Lut was a Messenger (Peace upon them all) the verse states Messenger--not Lot.
I also opine that I was not a witness to the above, but accept AQ as truth.
My further opinion is that I have no time for ad hominem attacks and will place on "ignore" repeat violators.
Faithfully to Allah.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Bold emphasis added to quote, my comments in red.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
Where is same sex marriage permitted for you in the Quran?
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Where is same sex marriage permitted for you in the Quran?
I have no idea if same-sex marriage is permitted/supported or not. In truth, it is not a topic of importance to me. I'm already married and have no inclination towards other men. There have been some interesting comments by others earlier in the thread that I'll consider if I ever do research this topic. Same-sex marriage is straying a little from the "Gay and Muslim" topic.
May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Greetings and Peace, all group
I have no idea if same-sex marriage is permitted/supported or not. In truth, it is not a topic of importance to me. I'm already married and have no inclination towards other men. There have been some interesting comments by others earlier in the thread that I'll consider if I ever do research this topic. Same-sex marriage is straying a little from the "Gay and Muslim" topic.
May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
Same sex marriage is totally relevant, since I pointed out a few times earlier, that the only way to cohabit with someone you are sexually involved with is to be married. Islam does not permit a couple to be "together" and not be in wedlock. So I don't know why you keep dismissing marriage. So the questions stands, where is same sex marriage allowed according to Quran?
Now it is your life, you are free to have a relationship with a man, It is no one's business what you do, that is true, but you are not right when you say that homosexuality is accepted in Islam, nor should you really preach this as you are misleading many muslims by doing so.
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Marriage is precisely sex relationship, but when people do not take seriously a sexual relationship but as a past time they are flaunting marriage, they are prostituting marriage. The Qur'an does not say to marry in order to make sex legally, what it says it that sex-marriage is a covenant, whether you sign papers or do not, and whether there are human witnesses or not. So it instructs men not to seek women for a past time and hiding, but with real commitment.
In fact, I think that those that make a distinction between sex and marriage, meaning that marriage is something different from sex, are giving right to same sex relationships. Whereas the Qur'an does nto go there.
However, it is up to anybody, any two or more persons of any sex to contract in any terms they like to live in company and support eah others in whatever economical terms they may deem. To delve in what kind of intimate relations they might or might not have is beside the point and a matter of privacy.
I say this, because the Qur'an does not put a lid on the kind of contracts people may sign or the pacts they can agree on. But sexual relationships between a man and a woman are something apart, in fact they are marriage, but when there is nto commitment it is a might transgression against God laws.
It is not "marriage" that makes sex lawful, it is non commitment what makes sex a transgression and an abuse of marriage, which a fact of nature and a necessity for societies to perpetuate, not a legal matter, but a natural matter that for its protection in a society where there are laws needs the protection of law, but it is not the laws that make marriage marriage. But the laws in fact undo marriage when they do not recognize sex as such marriage, giving a get away to irresponsible people to flaunt their natural duties.
Salaam
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Salam huruf,
Evidence of poor reasoning (fallacy) from "self contradictory" statement.
First contradictory statement
Marriage is precisely sex relationship
Second contradictory statement
meaning that marriage is something different from sex
Third contradictory statement
sexual relationships between a man and a woman are something apart, in fact they are marriage
Lastly, denial of Allah's laws in ourselves and recognition of self laws?
it is not the laws that make marriage marriage.
And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed
then it is those who are the disbelievers
(544)Okay, I'm confused! nope
And the example of a bad word
is like a bad tree
uprooted from the surface of the earth
not having any stability
(1426)What are your conclusion and premises? hmm
What is your authority (Ayat) to support your conclusions?
Which laws you are referring to?
Even human laws are supporting and corroborating with the God's laws.
Okay, are we talking about the "Deen" or the rules of the animal kingdoms?
(refer here and here ... and of course, here!)
General Rule
This day I have perfected for you your deen
and completed My favor upon you
and have approved for you Islam as deen
(53)Peace peace
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Salaam muslims,
You misinterpreted huruf's post and she did not contradict herself if you analyzed the discourse more carefully.
God bless you
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Salam
Therefore, please explain, I'm trying to understand her "conclusion" on "the definition and legality of marriage", and the "scope of transgression" relating to sexual conducts in the Qur'an. It is so since the issue of this thread is "Whether gay is a Muslim or Non-Muslim", and which depends on the status of marriage and scope of transgression in the relevant ayats.
I wanted to ask if a person can be gay and Muslim?
If possible, try to put in the format of valid arguments.
http//z5.ifrm.com/30336/15/0/f5229388/argument.png
- premise = ayats
- conclusion = standings
Example
The Qur'an does not say to marry in order to make sex legally
Premise/Ayat? (showing or proving sex is legal without marriage,
Premise/Ayat? with or without commitments - approved by God - inheritance? )
(Her) Conclusion The Qur'an does not say to marry in order to make sex legallyGeneral Rule
This day I have perfected for you your deen
and completed My favor upon you
and have approved for you Islam as deen
(53)Thanks
Peace peace
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Peace all
An analogy; a marriage that is prohibited even between opposite sex..
The fornicator does not marry
except a fornicator or polytheist <- not a muslim, and will never be
and none marries her
except a fornicator or a polytheistand that has been made
unlawful to the believers <- Why "marriage" is unlawful to the believers?
(243)And DO NOT marry polytheistic women until they believe <- comparison
And a believing slave woman is better than a polytheist
even though she might please youAnd DO NOT marry polytheistic men until they believe <- comparison
And a believing slave is better than a polytheist
even though he might please youThose invite to the Fire
but Allah invites to Paradise and to forgiveness, by His permission
And He makes clear His verses to the people
that perhaps they may rememberAnd they ask you about menstruation <- cf. homosexuality
Say, "It is harm, so keep away from wives during menstruation
And DO NOT approach them until they are pure
And when they have purified themselves
then come to them from where Allah has ordained for you
Indeed, Allah loves those who are constantly repentant
and loves those who purify themselves."
(2221-222)Why "marriage" is unlawful to the believers?
Is it because of "non-commitments"?
Salam handshake
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Bold emphasis added to quote, my comments in red.
My opinion is that the above is an ad hominem attack. My further opinion is that I have no time for ad hominem attacks and will place on "ignore" repeat violators
ALLAH knows best.
Peace Hadi,
Quran is personal for every one and all; and Allah is for every one; and we discuss and speak based on that Oneness and the Truth. Where is the question of ad hominem attack?
3336
It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allah and Lut have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allah and Lut, he has indeed strayed in a plain error.My opinion is that this is NOT what the verse says, and that it is unlawful to change a verse. Although Lot/Lut was a Messenger (Peace upon them all) the verse states Messenger--not Lot.
I also opine that I was not a witness to the above, but accept AQ as truth.
Faithfully to Allah.