Gay and Muslim?
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Salam
This is much of the issue of confusing the "Causation" with "Association".
Human beings have an inherent tendency to "see" events associated or that "go together" as "events that cause one another"; ie. they conclude that because characteristic X (smoking) is associated with characteristic Y (death), that X therefore causes Y (death). Whereas someone may also die because of taking too much sugar (hyperinsulinism), no exercise or else.
Similarly, because of "SEX" is associated with "MARRIAGE" therefore "SEX" causes "MARRIAGE".
When we think this way, we are, however, often very wrong.
Association or correlation does not prove CAUSATION!
Sex = Penetration = Sexual Conducts
Marriage = Contract = Duty = Deen
Her argument = Sexual penetration = Duty (deen) to wife, children and relatives etc.
Therefore the issue is what causes marriage?
It is quite absurd to make a conclusion that it is all about sex, the sole determination factor! yes
Peace
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Salam
The word, 'Sex' is two gentle and constructively opposing genders designed as a set of unity, for the minds to become solemn and neutral. Lust and desire removed is sexual relation or intercourse of unifying the opposing genders. Marriage is solemn oath to live up to the expectation of the One, who created and ordained upon a community, such dignified relationship without talk of sexual intimacy between its men and women.
Peace.
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Salam
Situation 1 Sex is not equal to marriage
This is a clear ayat proving "marriage is not sex, and sex is not marriage". There are differences between the two words.
And lawful to you are beyond these
you seek them
with your property
desiring chastity
NOT unlawful SEXual intercourse <- sex is not marriage
(424)Situation 2 There are marriages, with or without Sex
O You who have believed
when you marry believing women
and then divorce them <- marriage
before you have touched them <- no sex
then there is not for you any waiting period to count concerning them
So provide for them and give them a gracious release
(3349)Other references
(3349), (2236-237), (55), (243) and (2233).
Therefore, sex is not the "causation" of "marriage".
Sex is not marriage.
Peace
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Salam
O You who have believed
when you marry believing women
and then divorce them <- marriage
before you have touched them <- no sex
then there is not for you any waiting period to count concerning them
So provide for them and give them a gracious release
(3349)Therefore, sex is not the "causation" of "marriage".
Sex is not marriage.
Peace
Peace,
What is that waiting period connected to?
salam.
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Salam
I don't understand your point.
Do you understand the issue and this discussion?
The issue is whether there can be marriages without sex.
and.. there will be no issue of "divorce" if there is no "marriage".
Therefore, there is marriage, with or without sex.
Therefore, sex is not the "causation" of marriage.
Therefore, sex is not marriage.
How hard can that be?
The issue is not about things related to divorce procedure.
Peace.
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Salam,
I am not contradicting you but only favouring your point which is correct in my view.
O You who have believed
when you marry believing women
and then divorce them
before you have touched them
then there is not for you any waiting period to count concerning them
So provide for them and give them a gracious release
(3349)The critical difference between men and women are men are lusty for sex in marriage; while women are more concerned about security by way wealth and property, than sex. Her intercourse before marriage on such matters with the man were falsehood and lies; upon marriage the real intercourse opens as the topic of concern from the woman's point of view, which he is unable to satisfactorily respond; as a result she does not allow him to sexually advance; and there ends the matter. He gets angry and divorces her before even he was able to lustfully touch her. Yet Allah's decree, 'the man has to spend half the Mahr he had promised her and leave her' for reason he had cheated her into marriage only for sex.
And she is fit for proper marriage with a good God-fearing man without waiting period.
Peace
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Salam
Can there be a "divorce" without marriage?
Peace
Salam,
Valid. Marriage is generally a community affair, which would be considered by its members as sex having consummated. So from the point of its view it is marriage and then divorce. Allah speaks from the community's point of view. And for the believers who shall discern and abide by His decree, to them he says, "There shall not be the mandatory waiting period of three months."
salam
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So from the point of its view it is marriage and then divorce.
Salam
That's it, that's all I need to know.
It is so since the only relevant issue for determination of marriage is can there be a "divorce" without marriage.
and ... the facts from the Qur'an inferred that marriage can occur without sex.
Therefore, sex is not the "causation" of marriage.
Therefore, sex is not marriage.
Peace
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Muslims, you keep confusing what people -now or then, when the profet was alive- do, think or say with what God commands and enjoins. People do the things you say and God talks about the things that people do, but what people do is not necessarily what God commands, but if the do certain things, then God knows they do them and talks consequently, but God does say nowhere marriage is one thing, sexbetween woman and man is something else and they are separate things. If people separate them in deed that is what is called zani and zaniya, and they are assimilated to associators, because they erect their law instead of the law of God.
Salaam
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Muslims, you keep confusing what people -now or then, when the profet was alive- do, think or say with what God commands and enjoins. People do the things you say and God talks about the things that people do, but what people do is not necessarily what God commands, but if the do certain things, then God knows they do them and talks consequently, but God does say nowhere marriage is one thing, sexbetween woman and man is something else and they are separate things. If people separate them in deed that is what is called zani and zaniya, and they are assimilated to associators, because they erect their law instead of the law of God.
Salam
I hope you can back up your conclusion with words from the Qur'an and appealing to solid evidence and rationality, rather than making decisions according to what might be pleasing to imagine or say; They follow not except assumption, and indeed, assumption avails not against the truth at all (532
I have proved with various ayat from the Qur'an and proper logical structure. Poor reasoning will contradict but good reasoning cannot contradict with one another. I may be confused, it is normal since we are all human beings and learning from each others. However, at least I'm confused with solid authority from the Qur'an and proper logical structure.
Peace.
p/s The issue is not about the element of "sex is separated from marriage", but whether "sex is marriage". It is not the same, and there are differences between these two issues.
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Separation of sex and marriage in the thoughts of the "believers" is the ultimate hypocrisy, falsehood before God. Thereby males obtain "deniability". Since they did not intend to be serious about it, nobody can claim anything and in male dominated societies, it tantamounts to making women their toy by sheer violence of social damning.
What? God says in 4.1 to reverence the wombs. If you separate marriage and sex, what? you are no required to reverence the wombs? How stupid can a human being be?
And that is what is coming to the muslims societies on the whole, they are paying their oblivion of what is sacred. Males, seem to be able to get away with anything any time, but that is ok because marriage is something, sex is something else, and women devide between being toys for adults and surrogate keepers of morality for males. That departement fall on women, they (the nmales) need not do anything at all about it. They have toys on one side, keepers of their social standing on the other, damn the wombs and the reverence that is due to them.
That is the society you get when you separate sex from marriage, and in that sense I really do not think that muslim societies are morally better now than any time before, quite the opposite. Life was harder, materially in the past and men, physically did have to strain themselves more. They may have allowed themselves poligamy and concubines and other perquisites, but at least they did not deny their relationships, not to the same extent. Today they want all they had, on top of all modern conveniences and freedom of physical effort and western dress and mores, and on top of that yet, also deniability, freedom of dress for themselves but slavery of dress for the women, and the control of the bodies of women erecting themselves as arbiters of abortion when in fact they are claiming the right to abort universally themselves and throw all the onus on women because marriage, you know, is not sex, it is something else, and also claim the right to sexual harassment of women and on top of it to be respectable members of society and also believers. What, is that going to confuse God?
God knows perfectly what each one does and when He decides to punish whether on this life or on the next, all the witty playing with words will not help. Go and convince God then that marriage is not sex or sex is not marriage. What a good laugh He must be having! astaghfirullah.
Salaam
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That is the society you get when you separate sex from marriage
Salam
p/s The issue is not about the element of "sex is separated from marriage", but whether "sex is marriage". It is not the same, and there are differences between these two issues.
Peace.
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Of course you are making sex and marriage two separate things. And in logical expression they have a biunivocal correspondence. You can call what I say whatever, but I really laugh at it, because you are throwing all the balls off the court. That way you can keep discussing me till the ned fo the world. I will not last that long. I think I have made clear what I get from Qur'an, if there is nothing new, I see not need to repeat myself ad nauseam.
Salaam
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Of course you are making sex and marriage two separate things.
Salam
Nope... can you please quote where did I say sex is separated from marriage?
I am saying "sex is not a marriage", since you are saying "sex is marriage, and marriage is sex".
YES, MARRIAGE IS SEX AND SEX IS MARRIAGE.
Here is the difference.
http//s14.postimg.org/nttgse8e9/sexissues.png
Comparison with my previous graph (refer here)
http//s23.postimg.org/6v0clr24r/marriage.png
Can you see that the element of "sex" is inside "marriage"?
I'm not separating sex with marriage, I'm saying "sex is not marriage".
Peace.
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I am honestly lost in the last few pages of conversations. confused
If sex is only allowed in marriage, can marriage be between two people of the same gender? Whenever I read the Quran, I only see it talking about men and women, not men and men or women and women. Why? Is it an already established fact that marriage is only between men and women? Or does it only apply to that case?
Sorry I am full of questions and no answers.
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If sex is only allowed in marriage, can marriage be between two people of the same gender?
Salam
(REFER HERE and HERE for full reasons)
GENERAL RULE The prohibition of homosexuality is very clear and detailed in the Qur'an
Allah has permitted "marriage" and has forbidden everything else. (refer here and here)
Therefore, it is prohibited since there is no such things as "same-sex-marriage" in the Qur'an.
And those who guard their private parts
Except from their wives <- is referring to marriage
or those their right hands possess
for indeed, they are not to be blamed
But whoever seeks beyond that
then they are the transgressors
(7029-31)The word "wives" is an inference for the "institution of marriage", and the word "Except" is the "exclusion principle"; ie. which excludes all acts other than "marriages" or "those their right hands possess" as illegal; transgressions, an act that goes against the Qur'an and Islam.
This is only my personal opinion from the words in the Qur'an.
Peace peace
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Peace all
Below is the prohibition from supporting anything against the Qur'an.
Say, "Bring forward your witnesses
who will testify <- to support something against the Qur'an
that Allah has prohibited this." <- vice versaAnd if they testify <- may also include by way of hadith, mut'ah? polygamy?
DO NOT testify with them
And DO NOT follow the desires of those who deny Our verses
and those who do not believe in the Hereafter
while they equate with their Lord
(6150)None dispute concerning the communications of Allah but those who disbelieve
(404)Salam
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Salaam,
As far as I understand engaging in sexual intercourse confirms a marriage bond. The whole traditional marriage ceremony is a human invention, even though I bet there is nothing wrong in meeting and celebrating the new couple. When you have sex with a woman you cannot just leave her be, but since times have changed and there are ways to prevent conception the rules might also have changed, perhaps. Preventing conception is against nature or at least the design however. I am not writing rules or anything, simply trying to bring forth logical facts. The Quran is written according to normal (natural) circumstances where a woman becomes potentially pregnant during intercourse.
The verse 'muslims' gave an example of gives a further hint at that the marriage is only fully valid after an intercourse has been performed and even if the marriage ceremony has been celebrated but the couple has not engaged in intercourse. Also in very old tradition, like ancient, the sexual intercourse means you have confirmed the marriage and are officially married. The traditional dowry has something to do to prevent the woman from being fooled and pregnant without any guarantee in case the man just bounces off.
Now I know this is far off-topic since it is about 'Gay and Muslim?', but it was related to the previous posts. It is difficult to talk about such a politically and emotionally loaded topic such as homosexuality and especially if you are against it. I tend to be neutral or at least tolerant towards the phenomenon although it seems to be against God's ultimate design. But like I said, it occurs in nature without human intervention and can thus not be classified as against nature even if it is against the design. Gays are naturally occurring and need to be respected for it and maltreatment of them is against God in return. One might see them as a test from God how tolerant we can be.
The story about Lut is much more than only homosexuality but highway robbery and forced sex, although the story hints towards preferring men instead of women.
Considering the age when the events of Lut happened this people must have also had heterosexual engagements or this civilization would have been extinct sooner or later as no reproduction could have occurred, so it may have been homosexual harem type of activity of insane proportions and rape events. The true story is only hinted at in the Quran. The story about Lut is also one of the oldest stories of gender inequity, as the background is something like ancient Athens which was overly patriarchal to the point similar to the one in Sodom.
I think the interpretation/translation of the stories of Lut might also be inaccurate and it may be more to it than we know.
God bless you