Gay and Muslim?
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Muslims, you keep confusing what people -now or then, when the profet was alive- do, think or say with what God commands and enjoins. People do the things you say and God talks about the things that people do, but what people do is not necessarily what God commands, but if the do certain things, then God knows they do them and talks consequently, but God does say nowhere marriage is one thing, sexbetween woman and man is something else and they are separate things. If people separate them in deed that is what is called zani and zaniya, and they are assimilated to associators, because they erect their law instead of the law of God.
Salaam
That doesn't make a lot of sense. Sex and marriage are not one and the same surely?? Marriage denotes other things besides sex, companionship, duty, care etc. For example to marry an orphan because he or she is without a father, mother, family, protector is a good thing. The Quran speaks a lot about taking care of orphans, marriage has other factors other than sex as the precursor for the relationship.
To say sex is marriage and marriage is sex, that is too simplistic a view to take regarding sex and marriage. Yes sex takes place but it isn't the be all and end of all a marriage, not at all.
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Peace all
I will not make gay 100% wrong because there are some valid arguments (not here), and they are also arguing "Sex" is "Marriage" and therefore it should be legalized. They have their own definition and concept of "Marriage" which I quite agree with them, even though sometimes sounds too perfect and not answering to realities. What I do not agree is the parties to their marriages, a small fraction of their arguments. It is without clear authority from the Qur'an (or any other religious books, religions, laws etc) and is inconsistent with the overall system of life. It is unjust. Therefore, they can make sex in any terms and manner they like, but it is not "Marriages". This is equally applied to prostitution or mut'ah etc, it is not marriages. It is sex, and there are lawful sexual conducts, and unlawful sexual conducts. For Muslim and if we have done our duty to hear and confirm their "reasons", we just say "Enjoy Yourselves!". There is no compulsion and they are free to choose their livings, as long it is private offence** and does not harm the society.
Peace
p/s Marriage is not sex and that's why people are referring marriages as the "INSTITUTION" of marriage. Can we say the "institution" of sex?
(**Is it a private offence? It involves two parties and can be considered as a public offence, an offering to the public to join the offeror committing an offence, harming the other party and exposing them to various infections or diseases to the other, their family and relatives (+humiliation) and the society at large; cf. abettors, non-payment of taxes or zakat, and punishment for adultery, ie. it is a public sentence. Private is related to one single entity, you alone and without contacts with two or more persons, eg. leaving prayers.)
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Peace,
Sex is marriage and marriage is sex? & o
So that means prostitutes marry everyday?
Regards,
Yuliana -
Peace,
Sex is marriage and marriage is sex? & o
So that means prostitutes marry everyday?
Regards,
YulianaYes, that doesn't make a lot of sense to me either. As I gave the example above of marrying an orphan, if you are well int intentioned then you are proving the orphan with care, and protection, since they are without a family. To say marriage is sex is to say marriage is all about self gratification and it clearly is not. Sex is a part of what takes place in a marriage and god has made it lawful between a husband and a wife, but it's not the one and the same. That's not usually the first thing you think of when you find a partner is it? Don't we look for companionship above all else?
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Again, again, I must say that I am talking about the Qur'an.?Where does the Qur'an approve of prostitution. It condemns it. It condemns zina, for God's sake. And prostitution, for the client as well as for the prostitute it is zina.
And the Qur'an says very well what there should be between a husband and a wife, so what is this talk about Ourely enjoyment and not this or that. Please I have no been speaking about anything but the Qur'an and the Qur'an says what it says. What you tell yourself that since you are marrying a woman you do neet to deal with her with rahma and mawadda, and you do not need to reverence the womb? I have said that several times, We have to take thw whole Qur'an and in the whole Qur'an there is plenty to say about what there must be between husband and wife. The question is that it is purported that the Qur'an follows the ways invented by men and therefore condones prostitution and the use and throw concept in sex. But clearly the Qur'an does nto do that. So why that criticism. Have I not made it very clear that I am talking exclusively about what the Qur'an says not about whoever says?
Salaam
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This is getting riciculous, in a marriage enters whatever one wants to put in. -there is nto limit, the question is what constitutes marriage to start with. When one can say that two people are married, not what they may do in their whole lives. The are married when they have engaged in sex. That is what the Qur'an makes plain.
In my previous post more about the Qur'an and love within a couple.
I can see that there is a lot of fondness for this sex is not marriage and marriage is not sex. So you can have eaach separate. Not according tot he Qur'an, because then it becomes zina, and marriage without sex is a pact, of course respectable and even necessary, but not indicative of marriage.
Salaam
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Salam..
Understood...
So based on this one ayat that are explaining "how and when to select slave girls for wife" or the punishment for a "slave girls committing adultery", you are making a conclusion that the whole ayats in the Qur'an are mentioning "sex is marriage, and marriage is sex"? Allah is only speaking about sex?
How can that be? nope
The following is the ayat you are referring to, which I still cannot understand how it is supporting your argument that the context of the ayat is explaining "marriage is sex, and sex is marriage". It is totally irrelevant to your conclusion.
Please refer to the ayat and explain.
Topic Permission to marry Slave Girls
Conclusion...
It is clear that Allah is explaining "the practice of marrying slave girls", when, who, what, how it is allowed and prohibited. Allah is explaining "how to select slave girls for wife". Allah has prohibited to marry "slave girl that commit unlawful intercourse randomly or who take lovers". Allah is not explaining about sex, or "marriage is sex, and sex is marriage".
Please explain how the above ayat is explaining your conclusion that "marriage is sex, and sex is marriage". hmm
Peace
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All the time I have been talking about the Qur'an, not about anything else
That is the Qur'an. If youa re talking about something else then there is no reason to discuss anything. You can have whatever you want, but not form the Qur'an.
So just let us keep to Qur'an
Salam
You are saying you only talks about the Qur'an.
Do you mind.. please refer me to the ayat rather than jumping from one issue to the other, ignoring all questions with blank denials or personal opinions. You have answered none from the Qur'an, and none from my counter arguments.
We all here just want to hear your reasons, from the Qur'an.
Peace
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Fare thee well,
I can see nothing wrong in the thing that huruf says. Most of it is logical to me and is supported by Quran. Otherwise you can say that common sense applies and it is the most important thing that we have as humans.
God bless you
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Salaam,
What is illogical about it? It seems like a pretty sound argument. By the way, I think huruf is a woman if I am not mistaken.
God bless you
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Salam
My mistake, "her".
You can refer here.
http//s14.postimg.org/nttgse8e9/sexissues.png
and on the issue of "causation"....
This is much of the issue of confusing the "Causation" with "Association".
Human beings have an inherent tendency to "see" events associated or that "go together" as "events that cause one another"; ie. they conclude that because characteristic X (smoking) is associated with characteristic Y (death), that X therefore causes Y (death). Whereas someone may also die because of taking too much sugar (hyperinsulinism), no exercise or else.
Similarly, because of "SEX" is associated with "MARRIAGE" therefore "SEX" causes "MARRIAGE".
When we think this way, we are, however, often very wrong.
Association or correlation does not prove CAUSATION!
Peace.
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This is getting riciculous, in a marriage enters whatever one wants to put in. -there is nto limit, the question is what constitutes marriage to start with. When one can say that two people are married, not what they may do in their whole lives. The are married when they have engaged in sex. That is what the Qur'an makes plain.
In my previous post more about the Qur'an and love within a couple.
I can see that there is a lot of fondness for this sex is not marriage and marriage is not sex. So you can have eaach separate. Not according tot he Qur'an, because then it becomes zina, and marriage without sex is a pact, of course respectable and even necessary, but not indicative of marriage.
Salaam
The bit in bold. Right, but that still doesn't mean that marriage IS sex and sex IS marriage. As you said when you have engaged in sex the couple are married. So you are talking about two things here, in your own words too! But by going by your definition, that marriage is sex, then it's a very loose definition. Prostitutes have sex all the time but they are not marrying their sexual partners are they???
When you start to break it down, it makes sense, but when you give the definition it is seriously flawed. So Can you accept then, that marriage and sex are not the same thing, but when sex has taken place, then it measn the couple are married and then will shape their relationship how they choose. After sex, marriage is what is established, and so the rest of it that correctly define a marriage comes in to play, the protection, care, duty etc part of it, that is what truly describes a marriage. The purely physical act does not define a marriage, it is what initiates and confirms a marriage yes, but does not define a marriage.
Can you agree with my explanation and reasoning here?
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Marriage is the long term union between two people under the eyes of god, where they are making a commitment towards each other.
Sex is a physical act between two people, either for reproduction or gratification or both, and yes a fulfillment of a duty within a marriage if we are talking about sex in a relationship here and not a one night stand. yes both have a duty towards each other, but there are other duties too, some as the marriage progresses becomes more important than sex. Then when you factor in children, your duty towards the children bring them up and taking care of them. A marriage encompasses so many other factors, it's far far too simplistic to say that marriage IS sex, you simply cannot define sex as marriage, not academically or through the reasoning backed up by Quran, it just does not work and is a flawed logic.
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Mothers may breastfeed their children
two complete years
for whoever wishes to complete the nursing
Upon the father
is the mothers' provision
and their clothing
according to what is acceptable
No person is charged
with more than his capacity
No mother should be harmed
through her child
and no father
through his child
And upon the heir
is like that
And if they both desire weaning through mutual consent from both of them and consultation
there is no blame
upon either of them
And if you wish to have your children
nursed by a substitute
there is no blame upon you
as long as you give payment
according to what is acceptable
And fear Allah and know that Allah is Seeing of what you do.
(2233) -
Marriage is the long term union between two people under the eyes of god, where they are making a commitment towards each other.
Sex is a physical act between two people, either for reproduction or gratification or both, and yes a fulfillment of a duty within a marriage if we are talking about sex in a relationship here and not a one night stand. yes both have a duty towards each other, but there are other duties too, some as the marriage progresses becomes more important than sex. Then when you factor in children, your duty towards the children bring them up and taking care of them. A marriage encompasses so many other factors, it's far far too simplistic to say that marriage IS sex, you simply cannot define sex as marriage, not academically or through the reasoning backed up by Quran, it just does not work and is a flawed logic.
You are moving the posts. You are playing with two different meanings of marriage, one the act of taking a husband or a wife and the other the married couple seen ghrough time. I have been meaning all the time the act of marriage, that is, the act where by two unconnected become a couple, that is the act of coupling two people, and since we are understanding it all wrong, I specify being of of them a woman and the other a man. That is what we have been talking about, not the married couple along the years and this and that that we all know. Concerning the children, please read back what I have written, I have talked very clearly and conclusively about them and precisely if they exist, it is because of sex, not because of rubbing cheeks.
Salaam
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You are moving the posts. You are playing with two different meanings of marriage, one the act of taking a husband or a wife and the other the married couple seen ghrough time. I have been meaning all the time the act of marriage, that is, the act where by two unconnected become a couple, that is the act of coupling two people, and since we are understanding it all wrong, I specify being of of them a woman and the other a man. That is what we have been talking about, not the married couple along the years and this and that that we all know. Concerning the children, please read back what I have written, I have talked very clearly and conclusively about them and precisely if they exist, it is because of sex, not because of rubbing cheeks.
Salaam
With all due respect your explanation still does not back up your definition of marriage being sex and sex being marriage. You seem to be a little confused regarding how you define a marriage. I've never heard from anyone be they muslim or something else, that sex and marriage share the same definition. Not quite sure how you arrive at that conclusion but it isn't right, based on reasons given by myself and others who have been able to make a distinction between the two based on what we know of marriage and how it works and what it entails. Sex it sex, marriage is marriage, both serve a purpose and function, but are not the same thing.
Not sure how you cannot see that. It's very clear.
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Mulsims, read over the thread.
Yulianna, you say
To say marriage is sex is to say marriage is all about self gratification and it clearly is not. Sex is a part of what takes place in a marriage and god has made it lawful between a husband and a wife, but it's not the one and the same. That's not usually the first thing you think of when you find a partner is it? Don't we look for companionship above all else?
I am shocked at this comment, it throws me back to a very "Christian" concept of sex. Sex is bad and all its connotations are bad. That is nto what God says, that is not the islamic tradition either by any length.
Sex is a very deep experience if you really ENGAGE. If you take it as a pastime, you will get the reward for desecration, because sex is not that, although it can be used for that. Just like marriage can be use for political alliances, economical alliances, escalating in society, for many things. I suppose that that is what you mean to say that marriage is beside sex or without, sex, because for sure, for many people that is marriage, damn sex.
Muslims, I am not interested in reading about slaves citing the Qur'an it makes me jump. So get a better translaiton of it. Because, as it is I am not taking any notice. But here are some ayas
O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit the women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of what you have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good. (19)
But if ye decide to take one zawj (member of a couple) in place of another, even if ye had given one of them a whole treasure for dower, Take not the least bit of it back Would ye take it by slander and manifest wrong? (20)
And how could ye take it when ye have gone in unto each other, and they have Taken from you a solemn covenant? (21)
So what does this "you have gone unto each other" and this "solemn covenant" (mithaqan ghalidhan)stand for?
As we see it is not something that the partners do in front of anybody but going unto each other and God says to that that the man has undertaken with her a mighty covenant.
Nikah may be the public contracting (signing or searing of a contract) of a marriage, but the marriage is this going unto each other in which he undertakes a mithaq ghalidhan. So marriage is something intimate in itself, but the Qur'an instruct not to make a secret so that the contracting parties may be duly protected from the pitfalls of whatever might go wrong with or without the guilt of the parties.
And marry not women whom your fathers married,- except what is past It was shameful and odious,- an abominable custom indeed. (22)
Prohibited to you are- Your mothers, daughters, sisters; father's sisters, Mother's sisters; brother's daughters, sister's daughters; foster-mothers , foster-sisters; your wives' mothers; your step-daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom ye have gone in,- no prohibition if ye have not gone in;- (Those who have been) wives of your sons proceeding from your loins; and two sisters in wedlock at one and the same time, except for what is past; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful;- (23)
Salaam