WHO IS IN CONTROL?

Jafar

And in the allegory I was using the game as a way of presenting how things could be working, ie. With the script. Verily God could edit the script on-the-fly at any time and any moment though as you make choices where the given outcome is no longer viable.

Well the script is never being edited on-the-fly and there is no bug either.

But it is quite simple because it is if you do good then you get good or evil then you get evil.

It's the rule being put inside the game, in football game allegory; the rule of if you won a match you'll get prize.

But what I meant is that fate is already predetermined which theoretically means that if God has planned that a car accident happens when you are 25 years old then it will happen.

True

It is a programmed script with the event to run at a certain day and time. You accident will happen and nothing can prevent it, except that God has control and can divert you from the crash should The Master wish.

Not necessarily a 'script', it just a consequences from continuous series of events.

If the record says the accident shall happen then it shall happened in the exact detailed manner.
All of my 'will' and any other being's will shall be in symphony to make that happened at the exact time and place.
The 'accident' and my death will also trigger another continuous series of events which shall be totally different if I survived that accident or the accident never happened.

I hope that you see that I am more intelligent in the discussion than you rebuke me of in the previous post. There are no logical fallacies here.

I didn't rebuke you, I just give you a choice...
It's ok to believe you have a 'free' will.
Or in other words It's ok to not believing in a pre-deterministic universe.

Because from predeterministic view point.
It has been predetermined that some being shall not accept predeterministic view.

The main issue here I think is human refusal of not having a 'free' will.
Because he/she 'experienced' that he/she has one.
Well 'free' will does exist, although purely from the being perspective.
Just like Lizard have free will purely from the lizard perspective, when he sees something he has choices of whether to eat, fight, flee or f&&k, that's how reptilian brain works. From the lizard's own perspective, it has a free will.

But in absolute reality perspective, all will is already known, from lizard to elephant, from human to alien, and all will shall will in accordance to the plan.
The plan is very detailed, including at what time, which cell in which location shall replicate. (for example)

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

Okay Jafar. You believe there is no free will to will? You see it is very controversial idea because then the reason we are here is quite redundant as it serves no purpose. God knows the liars without testing in that philosophy. But that is perhaps a difference in perception between you and me? You believe that everything is already settled and decided?

I believe it is the planning and events that will occur are already set out before the creation. And God is aware of every little equation of difference in the path that we undertake and can adjust the temporary illusion accordingly. But I believe that your choices do matter and are not predetermined but part of the test. To see how much true faith you had underneath it all and how patient and how much you worked to harmonize yourself with God. That way I believe that this is not decided yet and it is weird to have a judgment day with deeds evaluated on scales (probably allegorically) if your actions were already known. That is why I meant that God will control things "on-the-fly", if you get what I mean?

And I am aware that nothing can avail against God. And The Master can just say be and it is. But do you deny that God can change events "on-the-fly", is that too hard for God to do?

I see now that my game allegory did not work for you because you did not understand the similitude and compare it only superfiscally with whatever technology we have invented.

So we have free will to choose to follow God or we have a choice to disobey and just simply live our lives and think that we will just die and cease to exist and let Satan be a guide.

God bless you

Jafar

Okay Jafar. You believe there is no free will to will? You see it is very controversial idea because then the reason we are here is quite redundant as it serves no purpose. But that is perhaps a difference in perception between you and me? You believe that everything is already settled and decided?

Yes that's the difference between you and me.
And it's okay to be different.
The difference is caused by perspective.

Whether 'Free' will exist? It depends on one perspective.
Will does exist, from human's will up to insect's will.
Whether it's free? It depends on one perspective.

Actually if we want to take this 'deeper', Whether 'we' actually exist, It also depends on one perspective.

God knows the liars without testing in that philosophy

Yes, God knows the 'anything' before 'the test' has been completed, because he knows the results of that 'test' will be.

Remember that you're not God, thus there is always things about God that you do not understand.
Human need an objective, while God is free of need.

That's the essence of the verse which has been cited by Hawk above.
For God, time and space is not a boundary to know things, every-thing, every-where, every-time is always known.
Including being's will, being's action and all chain-reaction of series of actions.

You believe that everything is already settled and decided?

Yes, remember given no time dimension boundary, grammar doesn't really matter.

So let me guess your 'free' will here.
Based on your 'past record', I can predict that you'll post another response.

But since I put that 'prediction' in this post, your 'ego' starts to kicked in, as you don't want your 'will' to be not 'free' or 'known' by me.
That makes me somehow in 'control' over you.
And to prove that I'm wrong on that prediction you might be thinking of not posting a response )

Salam / Peace

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

Not so much ego. But it is just about the details on how we perceive things. We do not know about God while God knows all about us. But I yet believe that we are tested and God has not determined our faith and reliance yet. To me this would be redundant if God already had decided. Time is an creation to this illusion as you said yourself, but that does not mean God is not using the creation to test the souls that are in that creation. It is a very complicated thing to discuss because we cannot really research beyond the world as we perceive it but we can infer things through logical deduction (just as human science works either way.. lol).

You might believe that you are in control of anything, but God is the one in true control of everything. But if I chose to reply I am responsible for that deed and no one else. If I rise a waraxe at you I am likewise responsible for that action too. We are all responsible for how we live our lives and behave in it. We cannot excuse ourselves from this when we stand in the courtroom of God (allegorical description) and say "we did as you had destined for us".

God already knows or not knows it is irrelevant to us in this case. We need to be mindful of our lives as we proceed. In the end God was the only one in true control of the events that occur although the actions and mischief that came from us we are responsible for ourselves. All good is from God while the bad things are from ourselves. We live within the foundation that God laid and in the system which God "programmed" for this test and we are mere actors in it like role players with ultimate seriousness in whatever actions that we make in it. But the storyline God is responsible for and even if we think we are in control then God could do whatever The Masted pleased. If God (allegorically) said; "drop dead" then you would drop dead and no question about it. Commit suicide then you are responsible for that action or kill anyone else it is you who will be held responsible and God was not to blame.

God would not plan for you to commit suicide because then God would do evil. God does not plan evil.

I think there is a confusion in this matter of control.

But in the end it is just about specifics as long as you do not become or are a passivist who do nothing to improve the situation for yourself or others. Then I think you are a bit confused.

God bless you

Armanaziz

A mixture of

Tao The Ching by Lao Tse
Bhagavad Ghita
Siddharta's teaching

It is from Bhagavad Ghita. Good guess.

Although I do not consider any text outside Qur'an as "authoritative" the quoted passage has a very useful insight - to consider oneself as a "tool" in God's plan. Give your best to be the most useful tool in God's plan and rely on God for the result. For me this sums up our "should be" approach to life which is determined by God.

One more note before I take leave from this issue - in my understanding "God does not plan evil" is a misunderstanding... rather the correct statement should be... God is not bound by the human idea of good and evil. In the story of Moses and the "Wise Guy" in Surah Kahf, we have seen that the concept of good and evil is different for someone with knowledge of future. Allah clearly put in Qur'an that in the torture experienced by the children of Israel at the hands of Pharaoh was a "test from their Master". It has been also said that Iblis has been granted respite till Yawm-al-Kiamah to misguide mankind with Allah's authorization. Furthermore in 2253 Allah says that if He willed people would not have fought war - but Allah does whatever He intends. All these suggest that everything which is happening (good or evil) is a part of Allah's Master Plan.

I do believe that our every action is predestined by God. But that does not take away anything from our free will. Our free will itself is merely a reflection of God's will.. if we intend good it means God has intended good for us... if we intend bad it means God has intended bad for us. So let's rely on God and give our best.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Jafar

It is from Bhagavad Ghita. Good guess.

Although I do not consider any text outside Qur'an as "authoritative" the quoted passage has a very useful insight

That's the 'good thing' about easterner tradition, they're never authoritative a.k.a dogmatic in the first place.
Very much similar with today's science tradition.
You accept it good, you reject it fine.. you have a better idea excellent!

As for me I don't consider any text to be authoritative.

Our free will itself is merely a reflection of God's will.. if we intend good it means God has intended good for us... if we intend bad it means God has intended bad for us. So let's rely on God and give our best.

True, thus how 'free' is it?
Given the will of human is purely dependent on external influence.
Or in other words, human's will can be easily influenced by external factor.
The above is a proven fact.

Such as... are you sure you're free from external influence on your "authoritative text" opinion above?
Or it's actually coming from external influence that you adopted into 'your own free will'.

Armanaziz

Such as... are you sure you're free from external influence on your "authoritative text" opinion above?
Or it's actually coming from external influence that you adopted into 'your own free will'.

Salamun Alaikum brother.

The term authoritative has several meanings. When I used the term "authoritative" I intended the meaning "clearly accurate or knowledgeable (Ref Merriam Webster)" - not "Dogmatic" or something that has to be followed blindly. I believe Al Qur?an is authoritative because I find it - to my best understanding accurate and knowledgeable and indeed I have observed many signs which has given me a firm conviction that this is a divinely inspired text. There are certain aspects of it which I do not understand.. but I have the patience to wait for its meaning to be revealed.

I also believe that Al Qur'an is only supposed to be a guidance and a reminder - a book to ponder over; not to be followed blindly. I DO NOT believe accepting or believing a certain "interpretation" from Qur'an is mandatory or binding. What is mandatory is that we do not suppress/repress (Arabic k-f-r) our conscience - rather we accept our conscience and our rationality as the will of our Creator and thereby submit to Him. Any interpretation of Al Qur'an that is contrary to my conscience is by definition rejectable. If I repress my conscience and take any book blindly (even the Qur'an) - it would be equivalent of taking angels (i.e. Gabriel) and Prophets (i.e. Muhammad pbh) as my Master. Would I repress (faith) after I have been submissive (muslim)?

379 It is not to be for any (living) being that Allah would give him the book, the wisdom and the prophet-hood, (but) later he would say to mankind, ?Be slaves to me from beside Allah.? But rather (he would say), ?Be devotees of the Master because you would be teaching the book, and because you would be studying it.?

380 And he would not order you that you take the angels and the prophets as masters. Would he order you to repress (faith) after that you have been submissive (&#1614?

(My personal translation - cross checking is strongly recommended. Emphasis added)

And God's will - is not an "external influence" to me. Rather it is an "internal influence." The way I think, I feel, I see, I believe, I will and I act is all manifestation of Allah's will. When I take any decision or choice, rely on my moral judgment or use my intellect I am merely channeling the will and power of my Master through my thoughts and actions. This is how my Master has created me - and I submit to Him by being myself.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

unknownuser

yo I came up with a chart to more perfectly answer this question please hold this post until I find a scanner and can post a link serious it has math and physic and what not it's prove were all held by fate or simply fighting against it (fate being ALLAH's will).

Jafar

All of the discussion relate to one view of "time".

A nice video which discuss the matter.. yet without 'clear conclusion', due to the inherent complexity of a presumably simple concept called 'time'.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJ6Gb3iZ1Lo

And God's will - is not an "external influence" to me. Rather it is an "internal influence."

An interesting statement, which is true.

When space and time do not exist or space and time viewed as a 'whole', there's no such thing as external internal or here there or past present future.

muslims

Time Bender, maybe people need sleep to bend the time and gaining knowledge, past, present and future.

unknownuser

wait wait

the question is

"WHAT do we control?"

we all meet with common fate death going to the bathroom and such but the true question is what aspects do we control?
we are not simply being dragged along through the experience of life theirs an aspect of control.
do we control prospective?
do we control reaction?
what if you lose control? what are you losing control of?

i don't want to argue but i think the soul is the control figuring out what you control may give you a better understanding of soul and heart.

also i did not find a scanner so the graph i can't post but it's something simple like

_ +_= 19

or

what ever you choose which is already know = 19

you don't control the whole side of the equation you only can input two different variables

1+18=19

or you can resist ALLAH's will

2+18=19
but the simply laws of the universe ALLAH has created stop you from thinking of that or simply prevent you from doing things like flying or double jumping.lol
(consider 1 as a jump to a certain height and two a unexplainable super jump or to jump again on mid-air)

let's say 18 is the fall or y axis of the jump and landing you always land on the x axis because of gravity.

but ALLAH has placed gravity so your real equation is this (-1)+2+18=19

the minus one being the truth or simply the reason why your wrong or can not fly or can not double jump...
19 being the number of angel over hell... you die from the fall and go to hell for killing yourself.

hail i submit willing to the will of ALLAH we always meet what ever end he wills for us to me anything inn between is but a respite.

JavaLatte

i submit willing to the will of ALLAH we always meet what ever end he wills for us

It's true, brother. I amaze that you so confidence about it.

I hope Allah always help me to submit myself to Him.

May Allah bless you, brother fye.

Peace.

BobaFett

G'day )

The way I see it we have both free will and destiny. I do not believe our actions are predestined but the circumstances we find ourselves in are.

For example;

You are walking down the street and find a wallet. This is predestined for you.

What you do with the wallet is freewill.

God may know the consequences of each path you may take, in this example the obvious options are to leave the wallet where you found it, take the wallet for yourself or try to return it to its owner. While He may know what will happen if you take it for yourself or if you leave it or if you return it, He will not know which path you will take.

Since the future is only a possible existence and doesn't exist until it becomes the present, this is not a limit on His omniscience.

I think the reason why nothing we do can affect Gods plan is because His plan is perfect, it is all encompassing. Sort of like rain drops on a window, all the drops take their own path downwards but they are all heading towards the same place.

If I am destined for hell due to my actions throughout my life and God knew every action I was going to make, then by allowing me to exist He has condemned me to hell. The only way I could avoid hell is if I were to prove God wrong, by performing actions outside those which would lead me to hell. An impossible task.

Also the Koran states that we are tested so that God may know us. If God already knows us then the test is pointless. If the answers we are going to give a predetermined then the test is again pointless.

I think the confusion only happens because people consider the future as actually existing like the present.

all the best.

Armanaziz

Also the Koran states that we are tested so that God may know us.

Salamun Alikum.

Could you please give the verse reference?

Regards,
Arman

BobaFett

Sure, sorry I should of done that from the start.

3142 - Or deemed ye that ye would enter paradise while yet Allah knoweth not those of you who really strive, nor knoweth those (of you) who are steadfast?

293 Lo! We tested those who were before you. Thus Allah knoweth those who are sincere, and knoweth those who feign.

unknownuser

This is just my observation, I am not saying I am correct but I just wanted to express this. Please, any feedback would be great. Thank you.

I have been thinking a lot on this topic, and I see verses in the Quran that dictate that what we perceive as "free-will" is just an illusion. What we are being judged on, is by is our hearts which stems from our intentions.

853 That is because God was not to change anything He bestowed to a people, unless they change what is in themselves. God is Hearer, Knowledgeable.

Therefore, "what is in themselves" reviles that our intention, within our heart, is what ignites the manifestation of our reality that Allah creates. His attributes being The Creator, The Designer. What God bestows is the "reality" from what we experience. The feelings, emotions, and actions are manifested by Allah, which are all dependent upon our intention.

335 ...you are responsible for your purposeful intentions. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

76.30. You cannot will unless God wills. Surely God is All-Knowing, All-Wise

817 It was not you who killed them, but it was God who killed them. It was not you who launched when you did, but it was God who launched. So that those who acknowledge would be tested well by Him. God is Hearer, Knowledgeable.

Allah is the ultimate reality that we have been experiencing since our birth till eternity...

2115 To God belongs the east and the west, so wherever you turn, there is God's presence. God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.

This ultimately leads to truly acknowledging the essence of belief of "not setting partners with God" even ourselves (free will).

Armanaziz

Sure, sorry I should of done that from the start.

3142 - Or deemed ye that ye would enter paradise while yet Allah knoweth not those of you who really strive, nor knoweth those (of you) who are steadfast?

293 Lo! We tested those who were before you. Thus Allah knoweth those who are sincere, and knoweth those who feign.

I believe in 3142 the concerned words are yalami and wayalama, which mean, "has made known" and "and has made known" respectively. This would render the translation as

3142 - Or deemed ye that ye would enter paradise while yet Allah has not made known those of you who really strive, nor has made known those (of you) who are steadfast?

On the other hand, for 293 the concerned words are falayalamanna and walayalamanna, which mean, "so surely makes known" and "and surely makes known" respectively. This would render the translation as

293 Lo! We tested those who were before you. Thus Allah surely makes known those who are sincere, and surely makes known those who feign.

Much appreciate if someone with knowledge of Arabic can comment or confirm.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,

Arman

BobaFett

<b>3142 - Or deemed ye that ye would enter paradise while yet Allah has not made known those of you who really strive, nor has made known those (of you) who are steadfast?

293 Lo! We tested those who were before you. Thus Allah surely makes known those who are sincere, and surely makes known those who feign.</b>

Hi bro )

Who do you think God is making these things known to? I guess ourselves is the most obvious answer.

Do you have translations for 3166-167, 186-7, 1812, 2044 1112, 672, 7228..? Sorry I didn't mean for the list to get so long

If you can be bothered, all good if you can't or don't want to.

Armanaziz

Salam Brother.

Yes, I believe Allah put us to test so that we ourselves can know whether we can pass the test.

Somewhat like ETS conducts the GRE test not to know who is good and who is bad. ETS doesn't care - the test is conducted so that the test takers themselves can know their standing and can prove their own merit to others.

In a more relevant context it is very easy for us to hypothesize sittting in the comfort of our chair that "If we were born at the time of Muhammad (pbh) - we would have acted like his Sahabas, OR If we were born at the time of Jesus (pbh) - we would have acted like his disciples" But we can really know whether our hypothesis is true when we would be put in a situation that would require sacrifice, patience or devotion like the sahabas or the disciples. Allah knows what we are capable of and what we are not - Allah puts us to test so that we can know for ourselves what we are.

I reviewed all the verses you've referred - but did not find anything that would contradict my understanding. In some of the verses (like 3166-167, 722 the same arabic verb ya'lama has been used - which I believe means "To make known" or "To make evident". Per my reading, whatever uncertainity is reflected in these verses - are all uncertainity from the reader's perspective - not uncertainity from the author's perspective. An assumption that Allah does not know how we are going to act and that's why He is testing us - is against my fundamental conception of Allah (which is based on 2255 where it is clearly stated that He knows what is before us and what is after us).

By the way, it would be interesting to know your analysis of some of the verses quoted by brother Kayvon especially 7630.

May Allah guide us to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

unknownuser