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  4. Qur'an Verse 4:34 - 'Beat the Wife'? quranverse434

Qur'an Verse 4:34 - 'Beat the Wife'? quranverse434

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    Noon_waalqalami
    wrote on last edited by
    #21

    Verse 435 also uses the word which means 'disregard / turn away' and clarifies that the verse means 'turn away / withdraw' and not something else. Yours is a bad translation of verse 435.

    Peace,

    No your translations don?t clarify, make no sense, and are inconsistent when cross-referenced ...

    435 surely so we turn away about you the reminder turn away

    http//corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=63055

    2943 and those the examples we turn away it (f/s) to the humankind ?

    http//corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=51631

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      aqua
      wrote on last edited by
      #22

      Peace,

      No your translations dont clarify, make no sense, and are inconsistent when cross-referenced ...

      435 surely so we turn away about you the reminder turn away

      http//corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=63055

      2943 and those the examples we turn away it (f/s) to the humankind ?

      http//corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=51631

      You think every sentence in Arabic will translate word-for-word into English in a grammatically correct form? If you do, that is a very ignorant understanding of languages in general.

      Check the different translations of verse 435 on http//www.yaqb.org/ and you will see that every single translator has translated this verse with the meaning of 'turn away / withdraw'.

      Tell me then what means with a dictionary reference, if you know better?

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        Noon_waalqalami
        wrote on last edited by
        #23

        You think every sentence in Arabic will translate word-for-word into English in a grammatically correct form?

        The exact same word in Arabic pronounced and written exactly the same should consistently be translated as such.

        Check the different translations of verse 435 on http//www.yaqb.org/ and you will see that every single translator has translated this verse with the meaning of 'turn away / withdraw'.

        All the translations are inconsistent, sloppy, lack careful cross-reference, and mostly parrot each other.

        Tell me then what means with a dictionary reference, if you know better?

        Use context only 8 occurrences which its meaning is separate for the word in question.

        4389 so of reprieve over them and say peace so shortly knowing

        It's about financial squabbles which is a major cause of divorce and family quarrels, etc.

        433 and to each made we heirs from what left the parents and the close relatives and the ones pledged right hands yours so give them share theirs surely the god be on each thing witness of

        434 the menfolk maintaining over the womenfolk in what favor the god some them over others and in what spend they of from wealth theirs so the righteous (f/p) obedient (f/p) guardians (f/p) to the unseen in what guard the god and the ones whom (f/p) thou fearing recalcitrant theirs (f/p) so admonish yeh them (f/p) wa-uhjuruhunna/and of leave yeh them (f/p) in the rest place wa-iribuhunna/and of manifest yeh them (f/p) so if obey you so not seek yeh over them (f/p) way of surely the god be height of immense of

        435 and if fear you schism between them dual so send yeh arbitrator of from family his and arbitrator of from family hers if desire dual reconciliation of shall reconcile the god between them dual surely the god be knowledge of aware of

        2943 and those the examples we manifest it to the humankind and not understand them except the knowing

        Peace

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          aqua
          wrote on last edited by
          #24

          Use context only 8 occurrences which its meaning is separate for the word in question.

          4389 so of reprieve over them and say peace so shortly knowing

          It's about financial squabbles which is a major cause of divorce and family quarrels, etc.

          The verse you quoted, 4389, only supports what I said it means 'turn away / withdraw' (check again on http//yaqb.org). You also didn't provide a dictionary reference like I requested.

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            Noon_waalqalami
            wrote on last edited by
            #25

            The verse you quoted, 4389, only supports what I said it means 'turn away / withdraw' (check again on http//yaqb.org). You also didn't provide a dictionary reference like I requested.

            We?re discussing d r b ( &#1576 not d f ( are these same?

            435 surely so we DRB (?) about you the reminder ? of
            434 and of leave yeh them (f/p) in the rest place and of DRB (?) yeh them (f/p)

            About dictionaries written in 1800's and evolution of Arabic; what?s Qur?an meaning and has to do with DRB?

            2109 so pardon yeh and of ? yeh
            513 and of ?
            1585 so of ? the ?
            2422 and let pardon they and let ? they
            4389 so of ? over them
            6414 and if forgo yeh and thou ? yeh

            Edward William Lane

            1 , (Mgh, Msb, K, *) aor. , (K,) inf. n. , (TA,) properly signifying He turned towards him, or it, the of his face, (Mgh,) means he turned away from, (Mgh, Msb, K, *) and left, (Msb, K,) him, or it, (Mgh, Msb,) i. e. an affair. (Msb.) And I turned away from him and left him; (S, TA i. e. a man (TA being here an inf. n., and therefore in the accus. case, as in the phrase ; or it is in the accus. case as an adv. n., and the meaning is I turned away from him aside. (Har p. 434. )

            • And , (S, A, K, TA,) aor. and inf. n. as above, (TA,) means He turned away from his crime, sin, fault, or offence (S, A, TA or he forgave him. (K, TA.) And I turned away from the crime, sin, &c., of such a one, and did not punish him for it (TA or , aor. and inf. n. as above, I forgave the crime, sin, &c. (Msb.)
            • And , (K, TA,) aor. as above, (TA,) inf. n. , said of a she-camel, (K, TA,) and of a ewe, or she-goat, (TA,) her milk went away. (K, TA.)
              = as a trans. verb see 5, in five places.
            • And see 2.
            • Also, aor. , inf. n. , He (a dog) spread forth, or stretched out, his fore legs a r?jiz says

            ; being put in the accus. case as an explicative or he here uses an inversion; meaning . (L.)

            • And , (S,) or ; (K and , (S,) or ; (TA He struck him with the side, or flat, of the sword, (, TA, or , S, K,) not with its edge. (TA.)
            • And , (S, IAth, K, TA,) aor. , inf. n. ; (TA and , (S, K, TA,) inf. n. ; (TA He turned him back, or sent him away; namely, a person asking, or begging; (S, K, TA he refused his request (IAth, TA and and He refused him the thing that he wanted. (TA.)
            • And also signifies He gave to him. (IAth, TA.)
            • Also He gave him to drink any kind of beverage (K, TA) and at any time. (TA.)
            • And He made the camels to pass by the wateringtrough; syn. . (S, K.) 2 , (K,) inf. n. , (S,) He made a thing wide, or broad; (S, K as also ; (K see . One says of a sword, , inf. n. as above, It was made broad, or wide, and lengthened out, in the forging. (IAar, S, TA.)
              = is also syn. with , (S, Msb, K,) meaning The clapping with the hands. (S, IAth, TA.) One says, and ; (A, TA he struck one of his hands upon the other (Mgh or he struck with the outer side of the right hand upon the inner side of the left hand. (O in art. .) And it is said in a trad., , or, as some relate it, instead of , (S, Mgh, * TA i. e., when the Im?m is inadvertent, the person whom he leads should, if a man, rouse him by saying ; and if a woman, should clap with her hands, instead of speaking. (IAth, TA.) 3 signifies The taking by the hand; (S, A, K as also ; (A or the latter has a like meaning (S, K *) or the former signifies the putting the hand in the hand in meeting and saluting (Ham p. 802 or the making the palm of the hand to cleave to the hand , and turning face to face. (L.) You say, He took him by his hand. (A.) And , inf. n. as above , I applied my hand to his hand; (Msb or I put the palm of my hand upon the palm of his hand. (TA.)
            • And He met him turning towards him the of his face (TA or he met him face to face; i. q. (TA in art. he met him suddenly, or unexpectedly. (Ham p. 802.) 4 see 1, latter part, in three places
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              aqua
              wrote on last edited by
              #26

              Were discussing d r b ( &#1576 not d f ( are these same?

              Earlier I said that both verses 434 and 435 use Da-Ra-Ba with the same meaning of 'turn away / withdraw'. You claimed that verse 435 does not mean this. I showed you that the word Sa-Fa-Ha in verse 435 clarifies the meaning is 'turn away / withdraw'. You then tried to claim that the word Sa-Fa-Ha doesn't even mean this.

              To make things worse, you just provided a dictionary reference which supports what I'm saying, ie. the word means 'turn away / withdraw'.

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                Noon_waalqalami
                wrote on last edited by
                #27

                Earlier I said that both verses 434 and 435 use Da-Ra-Ba with the same meaning of 'turn away / withdraw'. You claimed that verse 435 does not mean this. I showed you that the word Sa-Fa-Ha in verse 435 clarifies the meaning is 'turn away / withdraw'.

                Peace -- you showed nothing only made an assumption that a word has the same meaning as another...

                434 and of 'withdraw' yeh them (f/p) -- what you mean ?withdraw yeh them??

                http//corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=10486

                You then tried to claim that the word Sa-Fa-Ha doesn't even mean this.

                To make things worse, you just provided a dictionary reference which supports what I'm saying, ie. the word means 'turn away / withdraw'.

                I claimed Sa-Fa-Ha is "reprieve" or simply "let it go/pass" (my translation); again what has to do with DRB?

                2109... so pardon yeh and of reprieve yeh until comes the god by command his...

                513 ... so pardon on them and of reprieve surely the god loves the good doers

                1585 ... and surely the hour surely comes so of reprieve the reprieve the beautiful

                2422 ... and let pardon they and let reprieve they ...

                435 surely so we DRB ? about you the reminder reprieve of ?

                4389 so of reprieve over them and say peace ?

                6414 ? and if forgo yeh and thou reprieve yeh and forgive yeh so surely the god forgiver merciful

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                  aqua
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #28

                  Peace -- you showed nothing only made an assumption that a word has the same meaning as another...

                  434 and of 'withdraw' yeh them (f/p) -- what you mean withdraw yeh them?

                  If you want to translate directly from English to Arabic word-for-word, it would translate as 'shun/ignore/leave/forsake them', etc.

                  I claimed Sa-Fa-Ha is "reprieve" or simply "let it go/pass" (my translation); again what has to do with DRB?

                  How does the translation of 'reprieve' fit into verse 435 or make any sense?

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                    Man_of_Faith
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #29

                    Peace,

                    After reading Wakas article and checking the word I saw that the word cannot mean leave. It suggests putting something forth towards something else.

                    God bless you

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                      Noon_waalqalami
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #30

                      If you want to translate directly from English to Arabic word-for-word, it would translate as 'shun/ignore/leave/forsake them', etc.

                      Again that is the word used prior?

                      http//corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=10483

                      434 ... and of leave yeh them (f/p) in the rest place and of DRB yeh them (f/p)
                      7310 and be patient on what are saying and of leave them leave of beautiful of
                      745 and the uncleanliness so of leave

                      How does the translation of 'reprieve' fit into verse 435 or make any sense?

                      Read it thus perhaps you'll see...

                      435
                      surely so we DRB (could be antonym; investigating) about you the reminder
                      reprieve of (i.e. a reprieve or let it go/pass) that are you folk of who transgress

                      Peace

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                        aqua
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #31

                        After reading Wakas article and checking the word I saw that the word cannot mean leave. It suggests putting something forth towards something else.

                        What about the Lexicon definitions which provide this meaning? eg. http//www.quranverse434.com/#the-use-of-preposition-an-%D8%B9%D9%86

                        When you leave someone, you are effectively 'putting them forth'.

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                          Mazhar
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #32

                          We?re discussing d r b ( &#1576 not d f ( are these same?

                          Verbal noun/gerund is Cognate adverb in the sentence.
                          A cognate adverb is a gerund with a meaning very similar to a mentioned action.

                          This adverb is used for one of three purposes

                          1 to explain the manner in which the action takes place.
                          2 to provide the multitude in which the action takes place.
                          3 to place emphasis on the action.

                          A verbal noun denotes action and state only. This cognate adverb denotes avoidance, ignoring, turning away, placing aside.

                          Would, for reason that you ask to bring other than this Qur'aan, We strike alienating the Memoir's narrative Qur'aan away from you people, in the manner of avoidance-placing it aside?
                          Would we strike like this only because that you people are a transgressing nation?

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                            good_logic
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #33

                            Peace Mazhar.

                            Sometimes the context of the verse dictates the meaning? You can use dictionaries, any source you deem important to explain words ,but if the context does not fit, it is a waste of time.

                            Since the verse means " Original sin" in my opinion? The word "nadrib" means "ignore"?

                            435
                            Should we just ignore the fact that you have transgressed the limits?*

                            Contrary to common belief, the "Original Sin" was not Adam's violation of God's law when he ate from the forbidden tree. The original sin was our failure to uphold God's absolute authority during the Great Feud.

                            GOD bless you.
                            Peace.

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                              Mazhar
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #34

                              Sometimes the context of the verse dictates the meaning? You can use dictionaries, any source you deem important to explain words ,but if the context does not fit, it is a waste of time.

                              Peace,

                              How you define "context"?

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                                good_logic
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #35

                                Peace Mazhar.

                                What I mean is" The context depends on the words used, but words that have "multi-meaning" are troublesome if you do not pick the right one".
                                I hope that clarifies for you.
                                With Qoran people "dispute " the right meaning!!! But that is fine, GOD knows that they do?

                                GOD bless you.
                                Peace.

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                                  Mazhar
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #36

                                  Peace Mazhar.

                                  What I mean is" The context depends on the words used, but words that have "multi-meaning" are troublesome if you do not pick the right one".
                                  I hope that clarifies for you.
                                  With Qoran people "dispute " the right meaning!!! But that is fine, GOD knows that they do?

                                  GOD bless you.
                                  Peace.

                                  Now please revisit your earlier post and tell me what words make you to infer the meanings as "ignore". The co-occuring words will deny even the remotest possibility of using "ignore".

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                                    good_logic
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #37

                                    Peace Mazhar.

                                    With all due respect. It makes no difference to you what I say. Your 5506 th post will find another issue and so on...

                                    However for your information, all the words of that verse led me to choose "ignore" for "nadrib".

                                    Now please forgive me if I "ignore" any more issues from yourself, as I have said my piece and will bid you farewell regarding this verse .

                                    Good luck with your choice of meanings and translations .

                                    GOD bless you.
                                    Peace.

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                                      Mazhar
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #38

                                      Peace Mazhar.

                                      With all due respect. It makes no difference to you what I say. Your 5506 th post will find another issue and so on...

                                      However for your information, all the words of that verse led me to choose "ignore" for "nadrib".

                                      Now please forgive me if I "ignore" any more issues from yourself, as I have said my piece and will bid you farewell regarding this verse .

                                      Good luck with your choice of meanings and translations .

                                      GOD bless you.
                                      Peace.

                                      Peace,

                                      First you said context does effect the meanings of a word. That is true. But in practice you insist not to bother about the words that co-occur with the word Zrb in the sentence. The preposition "Aenkum" alone suffices to defy your understanding of "ignore". For "ignore" you need not to have an inanimate object. But in the sentence we do have such direct object of the verb.

                                      However, you are at liberty to stick to your stand even without a foundation.

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                                        aqua
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #39

                                        I found an article by Edip Yuksel which agrees with the interpretation 'Separate from them / leave them'

                                        http//www.19.org/452/errors-in-english-translations-of-the-quran/

                                        The translation of the Qur'an titled 'Qur'an a Reformist Translation' uses the phrase 'Separate from them' in verse 434.

                                        I updated the website quranverse434.com to include the above article and translation.

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                                          Man_of_Faith
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #40

                                          Peace,

                                          But separate does seem incompatible with the word traditionally inferred to mean beat/strike based on if you take a look at its occurrence in other parts of the book called Qur'an. The only viable compromise is brother Wakas' "put forth" which I interpret to mean something like make her behavior known to people, perhaps so you may get helped with your issues with her and in relation to the next passage.

                                          Have faith

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