Qur'an Verse 4:34 - 'Beat the Wife'? quranverse434
-
Peace aqua,
Regarding 435 I consider how it is translated to be somewhat lackluster. is also not seeming to translate exactly into put forth either after some quick additional analysis of all occurrences of the base word. It often seems to mean something like "proclaim/announce", but I suppose it is worth checking into the problem further.
It is a relief that God did not give permission to beat the woman anyway by "law".
Have faith
-
peace aqua,
I happened to notice another flaw in your work, you said
Also, if the separator Wa was to be taken as a separation of disciplinary steps, it would be unusual for the Qur'an to not outline what those time periods may be. There would be no objective criterion to judge each stage, leaving the matter entirely at the subjective whim of the husband, who may very quickly be in an extremely aggressive and angry state. Hence, linguistically, this open nature of the word Wa in verse 434 would allow a man to jump straight to step 3 of the verse and beat his wife without having to make attempts at any of the previous steps.
A maximum time is found in 2226-227.
Also, you are seemingly advocating a simultaneous action of "wa" whilst at the same time taking the words to mean "speak to them" and "shun them", which can never be simultaneous, thus contradicting/disproving yourself.
I have added some more to my objections list
For reference readers can read my objections to this understanding here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13171.msg348827#msg348827Summary
"withdraw/turn away / go away from them"
Requires the tashkeel of present day Arabic Quran to be incorrect
This alleged usage in 434 occurs in 435 with the preposition "Aan", thus making Quran seems inconsistent IF it did mean that in 434
No identical example of this DRB usage in Quran
No explanation of how the authority are notified
It is unclear to what extent one separates, how they can do so without being unjust etc
No supporting marital example in Quran
My view Impractical result when inserted into 4128-130 and somehow requires iAAradan to be a positive thing and potentially makes Drb/3rD similar
Contradictory position of promoting self-reconciliation whilst commanding one party to shun the other"cite them" www.Quran434.com
Works perfectly with the tashkeel in the present day Arabic Quran
Several identical examples of this DRB usage in Quran, including when humans are the direct object as in 434
Explains how the authority is notified by 435, and provides perfect logical/sequential coherence
DRB use is clear and simple to implement practically
581-4 provides perfect coherence in terms of marital example
When inserted into 4128-130 provides a complementary practical and coherent solution
No contradictory positionOnce evidence is on the table, for various options, readers are better informed, thus we are able to make better conclusions with regard to meaning etc. This is crucial when it comes to understanding Quran. Thus, even though I disagree with your view, I thank you for your work.
-
peace aqua,
I happened to notice another flaw in your work, you said
A maximum time is found in 2226-227.
See the previous verse 2225; this is referring to those who make an oath to permanently avoid sexual relations with their spouses. They must wait a period of four months.
Also, you are seemingly advocating a simultaneous action of "wa" whilst at the same time taking the words to mean "speak to them" and "shun them", which can never be simultaneous, thus contradicting/disproving yourself.
The passage you quoted does not imply verse 434 is using the simultaneous meaning. It highlights that if taking the meaning of "beat them", the usage of 'Wa' does not restrain the husband to a sequential series of steps which are separated by significant periods of time.
-
it is out of the question that in this aya anybody be punished in any way whatsoever.
In the first place nobody speaks about husbands, in the second place nobody speaks about wives. In the third place the speach is addressed to the community of believers, all of them, males and females, it is so since aya 29, which starts with "ya ayuha allathina amanu" Oh you who believe. in the next aya it continues to be so up to aya 42. Then in aya 43 the address is renewed with again 'Oh you who believe". In the fourth place, there has been no transgression, some not right behaviour is feared, but has not been committed. Unless we are upholding that somebody should be punished for the suspicions somebody else may have, there is no reason for us to punish anybody. Even if we uphold such a thing, the Qur'an does not, therefore it is out of the question that any punishment should be provided for in the aya. Therefore the idribuhunna, CANNOT be that. It annot be that for linguistic reasons also, but beating anybody without trial, without proof without crime is really stretching any text whatsover to the sky. Daraba has been made to mean beat in the sense of physical agression after the Qur'an. No hint in the Qur'an that it should be understood that way, certainly not in 4.34. (See wakas exhaustive study of d-r-b in "the qur'an strikes back".
Furthermore, the basic meaning of d-r-b is to do something effective, it is the context which says what is the effective thing that is to be done. In the case of 4.34 we may think of aya 4.15 where, again, believers ar nejoined to collect women immersed in fahisha (street soliciting) and put them and maintain them in the houses till they die or till they find another way to earn their living. Again, let us not forget that it is speaking about women not about wives, and the Qur'an uses words properly and unambiguously. When it wants to say husbands, says so, when it wants to say wives says so. Therefore no reason for the readers to switch the meaning of words from their proper meaning in order to make the qur'an "make sense" The Qur'an does make sense without any outside help. Is we fail to see that sense, we should may be review our reasoning.
Salaam
-
See the previous verse 2225; this is referring to those who make an oath to permanently avoid sexual relations with their spouse. They must wait a period of four months.
Is "permanently" in the Arabic? Does "permanently = 4 months"? Your take on it doesn't make much sense to me.
My simple point was, a maximum time limit is given for suspension of sexual relations by one partner. Simple. After this time, one must reconcile or divorce, one cannot leave the other in this predicament indefinitely. This, with supporting verses, is discussed at www.Quran434.com
You, on the other hand, clearly imply such a limit does not exist in The Quran. This is misleading at best.
The passage you quoted does not imply verse 434 is using the simultaneous meaning. It highlights that if taking the meaning of "beat them", the usage of 'Wa' does not restrain the husband to a sequential series of steps which are separated by significant periods of time.
I understood perfectly what you wrote. On the one hand you are pointing out the flaw of "beat them" with a simultaneous "wa" when the flaw in your own view with a simultaneous "wa" is even worse.
-
Is "permanently" in the Arabic? Does "permanently = 4 months"? Your take on it doesn't make much sense to me.
My simple point was, a maximum time limit is given for suspension of sexual relations by one partner. Simple. After this time, one must reconcile or divorce, one cannot leave the other in this predicament indefinitely. This, with supporting verses, is discussed at www.Quran434.com
You, on the other hand, clearly imply such a limit does not exist in The Quran. This is misleading at best.
I think four months refers to a minimum period of abstinence, not maximum. In other words, they have sworn to abstain indefinitely and the Qur'an sets four months as a minimum abstinence period for release from their oath. The word 'permanently' or 'indefinitely' is not in the verse but is clearly implied by the way oath is referred to in verses 2225-226.
I understood perfectly what you wrote. On the one hand you are pointing out the flaw of "beat them" with a simultaneous "wa" when the flaw in your own view with a simultaneous "wa" is even worse.
'Wa' can be used in more than one way; it doesn't necessarily have a fixed simultaneous or sequential meaning. It can also have a mutually exclusive meaning where each step is independent. In verse 434, time-spans are not defined for each step. This is left open for each marital situation.
-
'Wa' can be used in more than one way; it doesn't necessarily have a fixed simultaneous or sequential meaning. It can also have a mutually exclusive meaning where each step is independent. In verse 434, time-spans are not defined for each step. This is left open for each marital situation.
All the three suggested actions are exclusive in nature. All three cannot happen simultaneously. Time frame is inbuilt because of conjunction waw and nature of successive course of action. Once the first action is taken but the experience showed that it did not work and she misbehaved despite enganging her politely and lovely; the need for the next step will arise. Husband will move her away within the bedroom. Obvious meanings are husband will suspend matrimonial relation with her. She did not care despite restrained relationship in the bedroom; she misbehaved. The last step is to be taken. She is to be shown the door moving her into other parts of the house which will make public the suspended matrimonial protocol.
-
Peace,
039018
"Those who listen to the Word (the Quran) and follow the best meaning in it / best of it (Arabic fayattabi'una
ahsanahu) those are the ones whom God has guided and those are the one's endowed with understanding(taken from article "A DEEPER LOOK AT THE WORD 'DARABA' (TO BEAT) IN CONTEXT OF WIVES" joseph islam.jpg
(Arabic Albabi) The term 'Idribo hunna' in Surah Nisa (4.34) can mean to 'shun - turn away from'
(not necessarily to beat) and does not necessarily require a preposition 'an' for this meaning to be operative.
It was also noted that the imperative verb 'idrib' has never been used in the Quran in an unqualified manner
without explaining (1) What object to use to strike with or (2) What part of the body or object to strike.translation
Men are to support the women because God has bestowed some of them over others and
because men have a financial responsibility to the women. The righteous accept this arrangement
as being obedient (to God). Guarding (what God has ordered) that which should be guarded, and those
who fear bad behavior from their spouse should talk to them. In a hope that righteousness is restored, if
not then shun the bed, if an amicable solution is then not reached then contemplate separation.
If they obey (God), leave them be. GOD is Most High, Supreme.If a couple fears separation may become final, you shall appoint an arbitrator from his
family and an arbitrator from her family; if they decide to reconcile, GOD will help them amend.
GOD is Omniscient, Cognizant.Remember these ayats also work in reverse, meaning... if the man is guilty of bad behavior the same applies!
God bless
peace
-
4.34 speaks about man and women in general, but it does not adresses them. It adresses the community of believers, ya, ayuha allathina amanu, since aya 4.29 it is addressing them and the addresse has not changed. So the daraba, whatever it means does not address any husband. And even if it was that it cannot be because no crime has been committed. It is something that is supected or feared but has not committed no punishment can ensue for something that has not happened. Whatever it is it spoken about it is some SOCIAL measure to avoid creating or worsening any problem.
All the ayas in this first part of sura Nisaa' are of social character. They are directed to the society, particularly to improve de social condition of the most vulnerable beings in society and provides for cases like that in 4.15, for which this injunction in 4.34 seems to apply.
In 4.25 believers are to take prostitutes off the street and keep them and upkeep them in the houses till they die or till God provides for them another way of subsistence. All along history women have been forced above all by need to become that most of the time because they have children.
As to d-r-b the basic meaning is to do something effective. The context must provide the actual meaning that fits it. Of course, in societies who believe in the power of beating the most effective to be thought of would be precisely that.
The whole lot of interpretations of 4.34 aya seem to be a collection of frauds vying for the championship of unQuranicity.
Salaam
-
It is amusing to see all this, knowing the true interpretation of the passage in question.
Salaam
-
One Quran interpreter did extensive research on the word Daraba. She agrees that it means going away.
"When she reached the problematic verse, Bakhtiar spent the next three months on daraba. She does not speak Arabic, but she learned to read the holy texts in Arabic while studying and working as a translator in the Islamic Republic of Iran in the 1970s and '80s.
Her eureka moment came on roughly her 10th reading of Edward William Lane's Arabic-English Lexicon, a 3,064-page volume from the 19th century, she said. Among the six pages of definitions for daraba was "to go away."
source http//www.nytimes.com/2007/03/25/world/americas/25iht-koran.4.5017346.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
-
Peace,
Dharaba always means to take out .
Be it an example or a wife.May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhanI do not agree.
First, I do not think that that definition fits particular the "daraba mathal"
Second, it should fit all the other instances of daraba in the Qur'an shich are plenty.
On another aspect, I very much doubt, no, I do not doubt it, I am sure that for as long as we keep being trapped into the idea that this aya is addressed to husbands and revolves around husbands and wives, in spite of the Qur'an clearly saying men and women , we will not make anything useful out of it. It is our loss.
It seems that malecentric habits are much harder to get rid off that we suppose. They seem to be hypnotizing.
Salaam
-
Peace huruf,
And if you knew what 434 really spoke of you would nearly laugh in shock I think.
Be whole
-
Peace huruf.
This is only an issue for those who keep making it one!!!!
Now for some people Qoran tells them the following
Beat the "wife/husband"... Do they agree on the method of how this will be done?
Hate/Kill "these"and "those" types of people...Even if they are innocent,and just because they happen to be different?
Follow unreasonable rules/traditions...Even if they make no sense?
Etc...etc...
For others Qoran tells them the following
Be peaceful and forgive...Even if you have been provoked?
Hate/kill you own "Ego"... Humble yourself?
Love others ...etc,etc...
Where is the common sense gone?
Never mind "beat" the wife/husband, I would say even "leave" the wife husband is against the message of Qoran. Marriage is a sacred act. You agree to commit and if you have a family it is even more of a responsibility.
Forgive each other,reconcile/love one another. Enjoy GODs blessing upon you people and be "cool"!!!
GOD loves you . Reciprocate that love.
I agree, huruf, let us not make it an issue
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
I think this aya is about much more than that. It ties with other ayas. It entrusts males with a mission as such males, in entrusts women with a mission as such women, and it enjoins not letting people (females) in society drift into bad things without the help of that society. No punishment in this aya but a call to dignify humanity, by dignifying each of its members as persons and also as persons of a sex. Do we forget that God made us different as a mercy?
Unfortunately the default setting that says that the title holder of mankind is the male and woman just an afterthought for his sake and therefore they (the women) are there as a fuction of them (the males) seems still to haunt many minds. I am not saying this as a rebuke, we are all affected even against our own good will because it is so ingrained.
Things at a certain level have improved, but, unfortunately Qur'an directly or indirectly continues to be subjected to subservience to other scriptures which may not be as textually faithful as the Qur'an is precisely because of that default setting which rules everything from safety of its invisibility.
Also, as you say, gl, and as the aya (cant remember which number) in the Qur'an says, take the best meaning in the Qur'an, if we strain ourselves in order to find the worst meaning, obviously we are not only evil, we make complete idiots of ourselves.
Salaam
-
I do not agree.
First, I do not think that that definition fits particular the "daraba mathal"
Second, it should fit all the other instances of daraba in the Qur'an shich are plenty.On another aspect, I very much doubt, no, I do not doubt it, I am sure that for as long as we keep being trapped into the idea that this aya is addressed to husbands and revolves around husbands and wives, in spite of the Qur'an clearly saying men and women , we will not make anything useful out of it. It is our loss.
It seems that malecentric habits are much harder to get rid off that we suppose. They seem to be hypnotizing.
Salaam
Salaam,
To me it fits all occurrences in alQuraan inshaAllah.
No problem if you disagree with my understanding, inshaAllah, Allah will guide us to the truth.May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan -
Never mind "beat" the wife/husband, I would say even "leave" the wife husband is against the message of Qoran. Marriage is a sacred act. You agree to commit and if you have a family it is even more of a responsibility.
I do agree with you that marriage is sacred. But I also think love is sacred whether you are married to the person or not.
But oh I am so taken by surprise. Now I get it all. Allah is so logical . Trust me, this verse is not talking about permanent separation. It is about reverse psychology. Here in US, every time a boyfriend or girlfriend behaves irresponsible and arrogant, older people give only one advice "don't call them for a while, step back, don't see them, let them chase you". Funny thing is that it works. I once tried to solve a friend's relationship problem using this method. Her partner came back and even behaved within 2 days. Absence makes heart grow fonder. That's what Allah is implying here.
Check the verse that comes after it. It says if the breach starts to appear permanent, the families of husband and wife should come forward to come up with a solution.
