:: Do tawakkal on Allah or be a mushrik ::

mmkhan

nice post

but

i am sorry i cannot vote with this post....

my opinion is with allah..

Salaam,

Sorry, did not understand the reason of not voting. It is just to know people's opinion. And also you can change your vote anytime.

May Allah bless you pr
mmKhan

mmkhan

I suppose I almost near to understand it, brother.

However, I still need time to ponder.

I feel afraid if this is true, because anything that may lead us to mushrik also mean "danger!" http//4.bp.blogspot.com/-vFDvbGdlDqI/U2LWOOLcyxI/AAAAAAAAGwg/66mL9nHaXFI/s1600/warning-sign.png

Salaam,

I understand what you say. But please take your time and seek Allah's help and follow what ever Allah guides you to and do not rush to conclusion 10109.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

mmkhan

I don't bother much to be a mushrik because I know it is not within human power to decide who is mushrik
especially when one have presented with direct ayat from the Quran and with proper reasoning
unless it shows that they want to take over God's power. . . to become God.

and . . in fact, I believe even Abraham himself was not confident he and his family are Muslims . . .

And Abraham enjoined his sons and Jacob
?O my sons, God has selected the system for you
so do not die except as ones who have submitted (to Islam).? <- they are not yet following Islam?
2.131

so , you can call me a mushrik if that what's make you happy . . .

I don't call anyone kafir or mushrik. Why should I call it to someone? And what is there which makes me happy to call it? hmm

Angels prostrate to Allah (hablum minallah) and Adam (hablum minannas) . . .
Iblees prostrate to Allah alone (hablum minallah, ie. bigotism) .

Iblees is Allah/ God Alone.

Therefore, God Alone is Iblees. . ie. the path of Iblees.

You should analyze and understand these aayaat carefully 1745 - 1746 and 3945 and 4012.

So you believe Allah gave Muhammad a Book perfectly compiled when he become a Prophet ?

I don't believe in that crap.

Who is Muhammad? Please take a look at my detailed thread here.

And of-course if is not mandetory on you to believe it.

May Allah bless you pr
mmKhan

muslims

You should analyze and understand these aayaat carefully 1745 - 1746 and 3945 and 4012.

So what is your conclusion ?

You don't agree that Iblees prostate to Allah Alone, and the angels prostrate to Allah and Adam ?

Ignominy shall be their portion
wheresoever they are found
save (where they grasp)
a rope from Allah (hablum minallah)
and
a rope from men (hablum minannas)
(3112)

Who is Muhammad? Please take a look at my detailed thread here.

I don't know what's the merit of your point but what I'm trying to show is that there is a chronological order of the revelations. . according to the link I've given or else, doesn't matter. . and because Allah does not send a Book perfectly compiled to Muhammad. This chronological order of the verses is very crucial to the understanding of the Quran because it shows us step by step how to understand and implement the rules in the Quran.

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

I am doubtful of the word's meaning as prostrate at all but I believe it to mean submit or humble. Perchance the word does not even mean that but mean behold or similar is in admire something. Just as 'muslims' in this case I doubt that God told the angels/controllers to physically prostrate or even submit to Adam. That would be against the decree even if explicitly told by God. It does not suit the context. It seems retarded that God asks the angels to submit to Adam. Pay homage or something similar I could agree on, but in that case you pay homage to God as well when you do sujud in a masjed (I know Wakas' interpretation of it not meaning place of worship but I did not buy that at least not yet).

The same is when people are told to enter gates in sujud. It simply cannot mean prostrate intricately but pay homage which can be done in more ways than prostration even if the word has become associated with it in the traditional Arab rites and later forgotten of its more generic meaning. Pay homage can be done by bowing your head or kneeling (with one knee for example) so it is a very generic meaning of the word.

God bless you

muslims

It seems retarded that God asks the angels to submit to Adam.

Isn't that what the angels do all this time ? To serve human beings etc ? Well. . I do believe it is consistent with the facts of the Quran , and to serve Allah means to serve other human beings , to follow Allah's commands for the benefit of ourselves, family, friends and other human beings. . . It is all about human beings and because no one knows what is Allah.

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

It may be so, but that they submit or yield to Adam is still slightly inaccurate. It seems a bit off. Pay homage to the human Adam could be it in that case. A show of respect to him. All except Ebless accepted to do it because he was too arrogant to show any respect to someone as inferior because he is made of fire while humans are of mud.

If they serve anything it is God and not some human. If they do something for us it is because God decreed an order. They are hardly subordinate to us.

God bless you

muslims

If they serve anything it is God and not some human.

If this is your contention . . then we don't have to serve and take care our family, children, friends, family and other human beings . . . We only serve God and pray all the time , but wait. . .what is God's commands in the Quran ? Righteousness etc ? Isn't it to serve other human beings ? Now. . . is this the same as what the angels are doing for all this time ? ie. God command angels to serve human beings . . . prostrate to Adam (ie. mankind).

And when your Lord
took from the children of Adam
from their loins
their descendants <- this is what Adam represents
and made them testify of themselves
, "Am I not your Lord?"
They said, "Yes, we have testified."

lest you should say on the day of Resurrection
"Indeed, we were of this unaware"
(7172)

To serve Allah is to serve mankind . . .

You alone we serve (ie. through serving mankind, righteousness), and You alone we seek for help.
1.5

God orders justice and goodness
and that you shall help your relatives
and He deters from evil, vice, and transgression
He warns you that you may remember.
(16.90)

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

I do not doubt that the service of mankind is in our mission. But the issue here is submission to Adam under the same "banner" as is done traditionally in a masjed. And I say that the conceived prostration here is a much milder word in the context more to show respect or pay homage. The angels are in service to God and they serve God alone. But they can show respect to Adam and so did all except Ebless.

God bless you

muslims

I do not doubt that the service of mankind is in our mission. But the issue here is submission to Adam under the same "banner" as is done traditionally in a masjed. And I say that the conceived prostration here is a much milder word in the context more to show respect or pay homage. The angels are in service to God and they serve God alone. But they can show respect to Adam and so did all except Ebless.

No one knows what the angels look like. . .and thus, no one knows how they prostrate to Adam . . What we know , that they were assigned and control the earth and the universe , to ensure everything runs according to Allah's commands . . and thus, they are serving mankind , days and nights. . or you believe Allah did all this by Himself ? or Allah reveals the wahy directly to Muhammad ? or you believe Allah serve mankind ?

JavaLatte

I understand what you say. But please take your time and seek Allah's help and follow what ever Allah guides you to and do not rush to conclusion 10109.

Alright, inshaAllah. )

Peace.

mmkhan

So what is your conclusion ?

You don't agree that Iblees prostate to Allah Alone, and the angels prostrate to Allah and Adam ?

Ignominy shall be their portion
wheresoever they are found
save (where they grasp)
a rope from Allah (hablum minallah)
and
a rope from men (hablum minannas)
(3112)

Brother, didn't you get what is my conclusion even after going through the aayaat I gave you? Or you don't even bother to check them? hmm

It is very simple that Sajda does not mean prostration. Please take a look at this carefully. And please go through it to understand.

I don't know what's the merit of your point but what I'm trying to show is that there is a chronological order of the revelations. . according to the link I've given or else, doesn't matter. . and because Allah does not send a Book perfectly compiled to Muhammad. This chronological order of the verses is very crucial to the understanding of the Quran because it shows us step by step how to understand and implement the rules in the Quran.

Again brother, at least go through the opening post to understand what I meant. Otherwise what remains to discuss. You are coming back with the same things even after giving you the links and aayaat. In short, there is no Muhammed for me.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

muslims

Brother, didn't you get what is my conclusion even after going through the aayaat I gave you? Or you don't even bother to check them? hmm

It is very simple that Sajda does not mean prostration. Please take a look at this carefully. And please go through it to understand.

I did look at them and my view about Sajda (prostrate) is the angels must "served" human beings. . .

In fact, this what I have been discussing with Man of Faith

No one knows what the angels look like. . .and thus, no one knows how they prostrate to Adam . . What we know , that they were assigned and control the earth and the universe , to ensure everything runs according to Allah's commands . . and thus, they are serving mankind , days and nights. .

and my stance on this issue does not change the facts that there is "hablum minallah" and "hablum minannas" in the Quran.

This is what I've been saying from the start. . .

Obedience to Allah means to serve mankind.

You alone we serve (ie. through serving mankind, righteousness), and You alone we seek for help.
1.5

God is not weak and does not need us to serve Him. . he wants us to serve and take care each other.

Maybe your interpretation is from Islam as a "religion" , God and Religion . .

. . .

Again brother, at least go through the opening post to understand what I meant. Otherwise what remains to discuss. You are coming back with the same things even after giving you the links and aayaat. In short, there is no Muhammed for me.

I think you should read again because you have repetedly failed to understand the issue
and your theory that there is no Muhammad doesn't affected the issue I raise in this thread

My point is on the "chronological order" of the Quran, not who is Muhammad. . . or whether Muhammad exists or not
In fact, you can name the Prophet to any names you want. . Ahmad, Bakar, Soleh, Richard, John, Tom, Sam etc. . .

but that does not change the facts relating to the "chronological order" of the Quran
that does not change the facts that Allah does not send a Book perfectly compiled to his Messenger, whoever he may be. . .
it is so since there are chronological events in the Quran . . .wars and such and such.

I don't know what's the merit of your point but what I'm trying to show is that there is a chronological order of the revelations. . according to the link I've given or else, doesn't matter. . and because Allah does not send a Book perfectly compiled to Muhammad. This chronological order of the verses is very crucial to the understanding of the Quran because it shows us step by step how to understand and implement the rules in the Quran.

That "chronological order" of the Quran is very crucial to the understanding and implementation of the rules in the Quran
It is so since no one can be expected to practice all the rules in the Quran simultaneously
no one will be able to do this, even the Prophet. . . any Prophets!

Therefore. . .

It is ridiculous to expect one can practices everything in the Quran and then giving a choice, " tawakkal on Allah or else be a mushrik"

I will write here whatever I was taught by Allah about doing tawakkal on Allah or else be a mushrik

How could this be possible ?

Because if it is true. .everyone on earth will be a mushrik. . . including all Prophets and the Angels.

p.s. btw . . I don't agree with your interpretation relating to Muhammad, it does not fit. . . .I believe there is no "Ahmad", but there is "Muhammad" in the Quran.

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

God can do anything by own machine. The Master simply says 'be' and it is. The reason The Master reveals things to humans is because it is the most subtle way of doing so without spoiling the test and it exposes most hypocrites. God may send controllers/angels in disguise also as missionaries/co-actors on Earth (as not to spoil the test as in their ethereal form it would be too obvious).

Do you think God lets humans be missionaries/handle the correspondence because God is unable to
do this? How is it with your faith?

God is in control of everything including natural laws and God is the foundation of all that, ie it is all "within the palms of his hands" (note allegorical expression!). God can control everything created without anyone helping.

But yet The Master takes people to help the on the mission, but that is to show our own worthiness. God could easily do everything single-handedly. And if we do something to help it is through God, because we use The Master's creation including natural laws to execute our actions. Praise be to our Master!

God bless you

muslims

Do you think God lets humans be missionaries/handle the correspondence because God is unable to
do this? How is it with your faith?

God is in control of everything including natural laws and God is the foundation of all that, ie it is all "within the palms of his hands" (note allegorical expression!). God can control everything created without anyone helping.

You are attempting to put words in my mouth . . . who say God unable to do this ? confused

What really happen here is God gave us the brain
and God create a system known as the "Sunnatullah",
and the system has its "law of cause and effect"
and you will not find any changes in the Sunnatullah

This is God?s way with those who have passed away before,
and you will not find any change in God?s way
33.62

You will not find any change in God?s way
and you will not find any bypass to God?s way
35.43

God now asks mankind not to be an idiot waiting everything from Allah,
or even using the corrupted understanding of "tawakkal" while praying days/nights and doing nothing else

God asks us to do our best to study the system, to study the sign. .
so that we can benefit ourselves, have lots of money to sadaqah, and benefit humanity . . .

praise is to Allah , Lord of the worlds
1.2

but those who does not understand and living in dreams/nightmares. . .
they will be subjected to the following "Sunnatullah"

And whoever turns away from My remembrance
then he will have a miserable life
20.124

"Miserable life"? Who are these people ? Isn't it the Muslim Ummah ?

No wonder why. . because they been living in the illusion of God, Religion, Hell, Paradise, Sin, Reward, Angels, Iblees, Satan, Ikhlas, Tawakkal and all the Mutasyaabihat context of life . . rather than in the real world, ie. the "Deen" of Islam.

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

Yes it is true that we were put into a working world much like a video game and our actions have implications and we are told to struggle in God's cause.

But ultimate God still has no need for us at all.

God bless you

mmkhan

I did look at them and my view about Sajda (prostrate) is the angels must "served" human beings. . .

You said that but with no aayat to support your claim.

God is not weak and does not need us to serve Him. . he wants us to serve and take care each other.

Oh, so you mean Allah is not weak to serve Him, but He is weak to serve humans!

I think you should read again because you have repetedly failed to understand the issue
and your theory that there is no Muhammad doesn't affected the issue I raise in this thread

My point is on the "chronological order" of the Quran, not who is Muhammad. . . or whether Muhammad exists or not
In fact, you can name the Prophet to any names you want. . Ahmad, Bakar, Soleh, Richard, John, Tom, Sam etc. . .

but that does not change the facts relating to the "chronological order" of the Quran
that does not change the facts that Allah does not send a Book perfectly compiled to his Messenger, whoever he may be. . .
it is so since there are chronological events in the Quran . . .wars and such and such.

You did not bring me evidence yet for where did you get this so called chronological order of alQuraan?

That "chronological order" of the Quran is very crucial to the understanding and implementation of the rules in the Quran
It is so since no one can be expected to practice all the rules in the Quran simultaneously
no one will be able to do this, even the Prophet. . . any Prophets!

Therefore. . .

It is ridiculous to expect one can practices everything in the Quran and then giving a choice, " tawakkal on Allah or else be a mushrik"

How could this be possible ?

Because if it is true. .everyone on earth will be a mushrik. . . including all Prophets and the Angels.

Again, you mixing many things into a single topic. When I said tawakkal, how did you conclude that it means follow everything mentioned in alQuraan?

p.s. btw . . I don't agree with your interpretation relating to Muhammad, it does not fit. . . .I believe there is no "Ahmad", but there is "Muhammad" in the Quran.

That is not a problem for me if you don't agree with my understanding. We all may differ in many things, so it is not an issue.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

Existential1

I'm going to give my opinion of the poll question.

Though I believe the either-or statement to be a bit problematic, which I will explain why, I do believe it to be factual.

Yes, to rely on anything besides God is to in some sense deem sole reliance not necessary. However I feel as though one of His names is "Most Forgiving" for a reason. I never forget that when I believe I might be in-error.

It is not possible to reasonably rely practically on Him without also putting forth some effort of your own. God gave us the capacity to think, to act. We can rely on God for sustenance, food, water, etc, but we still must put forth the effort of picking up that food or water and chewing/swallowing it. Using that capacity (or relying on the capacity God gave you) in a way to get yourself closer to Him, in my opinion, is not consistent with placing the title of mushrik.

I also think you have to really evaluate how you interpret reliance on Him. If I'm trying to establish a 501 (c)3 non-profit in the US to advance critical thinking Islamic study, I'm going to need to make projections in order to satisfy donors. I can make those projections, because I'm acknowledging that with the favor of God, this is how I believe things will turn out. Do I know for certain? Absolutely not, only God knows. But I believe God knows we do not live in a world full of believers, and thusly, we must keep Him in-mind when do activities that others may not associate with Him (like making financial projections).

In conclusion, I agree that "do tawakkal" on Allah or you may open yourself to being branded mushrik. But I'd say that first, only God may decide who is or is not that. Secondly, that by being sincere and mindful of your connection to God, you may rely on Him even when you deal with situations/people who do not. Thirdly, in those situations when you are not mindful of your connection to Him, then you may be crossing that mushrik border. If that happens though, I'd believe there are varying degrees of defiance that are recorded with varying weight in your book of deeds. Lastly, again, only God knows.

muslims

You said that but with no aayat to support your claim.

Oh, so you mean Allah is not weak to serve Him, but He is weak to serve humans!

You did not bring me evidence yet for where did you get this so called chronological order of alQuraan?

Again, you mixing many things into a single topic. When I said tawakkal, how did you conclude that it means follow everything mentioned in alQuraan?

That is not a problem for me if you don't agree with my understanding. We all may differ in many things, so it is not an issue.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

Okay, I have no idea what you did not understand,

but . . it is obvious that there is no point for me to repeat. . .

according to the link I've given or else, doesn't matter. .

it is so since there are chronological events in the Quran . . .wars and such and such.

. . .

BLUE and also, on the suggestion there is no connection between "mushrik" and "obedience to the commands in the Quran"

We are to do tawakkal on Allah alone being a mumin otherwise we may fall mushrik .

Take note, "mushrik" or "non-mushrik" is about "obedience" to the commands in the Quran, ie. referring to "action" (refer here),
not about "faith", ie. tawakkal, reliance , "iman" . . .

I think you're confused because your comparison between "mushrik" (action) and "tawakkal" (faith) was already irrelevant. .

Zulf

I'm going to give my opinion of the poll question.

Though I believe the either-or statement to be a bit problematic, which I will explain why, I do believe it to be factual.

Yes, to rely on anything besides God is to in some sense deem sole reliance not necessary. However I feel as though one of His names is "Most Forgiving" for a reason. I never forget that when I believe I might be in-error.

It is not possible to reasonably rely practically on Him without also putting forth some effort of your own. God gave us the capacity to think, to act. We can rely on God for sustenance, food, water, etc, but we still must put forth the effort of picking up that food or water and chewing/swallowing it. Using that capacity (or relying on the capacity God gave you) in a way to get yourself closer to Him, in my opinion, is not consistent with placing the title of mushrik.

I also think you have to really evaluate how you interpret reliance on Him. If I'm trying to establish a 501 (c)3 non-profit in the US to advance critical thinking Islamic study, I'm going to need to make projections in order to satisfy donors. I can make those projections, because I'm acknowledging that with the favor of God, this is how I believe things will turn out. Do I know for certain? Absolutely not, only God knows. But I believe God knows we do not live in a world full of believers, and thusly, we must keep Him in-mind when do activities that others may not associate with Him (like making financial projections).

In conclusion, I agree that "do tawakkal" on Allah or you may open yourself to being branded mushrik. But I'd say that first, only God may decide who is or is not that. Secondly, that by being sincere and mindful of your connection to God, you may rely on Him even when you deal with situations/people who do not. Thirdly, in those situations when you are not mindful of your connection to Him, then you may be crossing that mushrik border. If that happens though, I'd believe there are varying degrees of defiance that are recorded with varying weight in your book of deeds. Lastly, again, only God knows.

Well written!

One trap we fall into is when we try to define God as something, to make a specific image of God... which we cannot properly do. When we create a faulty image, then many other things often suffer, like how we interpret concepts such as 'rely on' and 'serve'.
I think that we wisely instead should think of what God is NOT. This approach may be useful is cleansing the faulty and extremely limited images we have. Atheists also fall into this trap. They have an image, from religion, and then (rightly so) reject it. But then conclusions are made that are not warranted, i.e. that there is no such thing as a Creating Source Intelligence.

Peace