Oldest Qur?an manuscript MA VI 165
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MOF bro,
My apologies hail
peace
Very well.
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Peace everyone -- verse 2215 came up in another thread and the issue in translation is mostly inconsistency, lack of cross-reference, context, and inserting words not present in the text especially this case concerning those who are on the edge of faith?
1975 say who be in the error falyamdud/so surely extends for him the almighty extension of until when see they of what promised being either the punishment and either the hour so will understand they of who worst place/position of and weaker host of
2211 and from/among the humankind who devoted the god on edge so if struck him good reassured with it and if hits him fit'natun/trial turns on countenance his lost the world and the afterlife such it the loss the clear 2212 calls he of from besides the god what not harms him and what not shall profit him such it the straying the far 2213 calls he of to whom harm his nearer from profit his surely wretched the patron and surely wretched the friend 2214 surely the god enter the ones believes they of and do they of the righteous works gardens flow from underneath it the springs surely the god does what intends
2215 who be that think that never supports him (i.e. who/said person) the god in the world and the afterlife falyamdud/so surely extends bisababin/by means/rope? to the firmament/sky/heaven furthermore l'yaqa/let him cutoff so let sees shall remove disposition his what raged
2216 and like such have descended we it signs clear and that the god guides whom intendshttp//oi66.tinypic.com/2581dua.jpg
http//oi68.tinypic.com/2lzvih.jpg
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@ brother noon send me a link of these pages i mean where i can find whole quran.. in the same sequence.. thanx in advance,,
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Peace everyone -- verse 2215 came up in another thread and the issue in translation is mostly inconsistency, lack of cross-reference, context, and inserting words not present in the text especially this case concerning those who are on the edge of faith?
Did you reach a conclusion about 2215 when you checked the photo's of the old manuscript ? What is your conclusion on it ? I can't help you with this because I have no Arabic knowledge, sadly.
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@ brother noon send me a link of these pages i mean where i can find whole quran.. in the same sequence.. thanx in advance,,
Peace imrankhawaja,
The manuscript 155 pages or ~1/4 of Qur'an (ch17v36 - ch36v55) download best result 132Mb link below...
http//idb.ub.uni-tuebingen.de/diglit/MaVI165
It takes a bit getting used to although after translating numerous pages it gets easier.
Did you reach a conclusion about 2215 when you checked the photo's of the old manuscript ? What is your conclusion on it ? I can't help you with this because I have no Arabic knowledge, sadly.
Peace Dakhan,
No, script is fairly consistent with modern text except for verse numbering e.g. initialed chapters are single verse, etc.
One simply needs to read context it's obvious not telling those on the edge of faith to extend a rope hang themselves?
Likewise ask in context of the verses prior and following who exactly does "him" refer to other than back to who?
2215 who be that think that never supports him the god
Likewise ask how/why this word is translated as rope? by/with ?
1884 surely we established we for him in the land and gave him from each thing means/course of
2644 so threw they of ropes theirs and staffs theirs and say they of by might Firaun/Pharaoh surely we surely we the dominating
1115 on neck hers cord/rope from palm fiberTherefore ...
2214 surely the god enter the ones believes they of and do they of the righteous works gardens flow from underneath it the springs surely the god does what intends
2215 who be that think that never supports him the god in the world and the afterlife so surely/let extends by means/course to the sky/heaven furthermore let him cutoff so let sees shall remove plan/disposition his what raged
2216 and like such have descended we it signs clear and that the god guides whom intends -
Peace imrankhawaja,
The manuscript 155 pages or ~1/4 of Qur'an (ch17v36 - ch36v55) download best result 132Mb link below...
http//idb.ub.uni-tuebingen.de/diglit/MaVI165
It takes a bit getting used to although after translating numerous pages it gets easier.
handshake thanks buddy
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@ brother noon i want the one with translation... the copy i downloaded is just arabic
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@ brother noon i want the one with translation... the copy i downloaded is just arabic
Peace, the translation is my own (manuscript has 154 pages), here are first 9 start manuscript v1736 to end ch17 start ch18...
http//i65.tinypic.com/eze3q8.jpg
http//oi65.tinypic.com/rtjggh.jpg
http//oi66.tinypic.com/281zxh3.jpg
http//oi68.tinypic.com/20h0h3s.jpg
http//oi67.tinypic.com/352kd8g.jpg
http//oi64.tinypic.com/29qdraa.jpg
http//oi65.tinypic.com/oi9bls.jpg
http//oi64.tinypic.com/1ik16r.jpg
http//oi63.tinypic.com/ixd2t5.jpg
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Peace -- someone messaged me about hamzah (ء e.i. glottal stop?
In this manuscript appears either as alif or small red dot next to alif...
http//oi63.tinypic.com/avhtvp.jpg
http//oi63.tinypic.com/24pav02.jpg
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Virtually no diacritical markers in the original manuscript.
And all the claimed variations of Alef is just one and the same letter.
Be well
Amenuel -
Peace, another member messaged me to confirm if "alif" in old manuscripts i.e. b-s-m spelling was specific to bismillah or does it also occur in other instances...
200 in name the god the almighty the merciful
208 the god not deity except he for him the names the beautiful
Birmingham Quran ch19v93-ch20v13
http//oi65.tinypic.com/6sxq52.jpgMA VI 165 Quran ch19v97-ch20v16
http//oi64.tinypic.com/2v9sq3t.jpgMA VI 165 Quran ch27v28-40
http//oi63.tinypic.com/2zioifb.jpg2228 to witness they of gains for them and remembered/mention they of name the god in days well-known on what provided them from beast the cattle so eat ye of therein and feed ye of the miserable the poor
2234 and to each community made we of rite of to remembers they of name the god on what provided them from beast the cattle so the deity yours deity one so to him submit ye of and give news the humble ones
MA VI 165 Quran ch22v28-35
http//oi66.tinypic.com/idhd9i.jpg2436 in houses which the god that elevate and remembered therein name his glorify for him therein in the early/morning and the evenings
MA VI 165 Quran ch24v35-42
http//oi65.tinypic.com/2qxx5bs.jpg -
Peace, another member messaged me to confirm if "alif" in old manuscripts i.e. b-s-m spelling was specific to bismillah or does it also occur in other instances...
200 in name the god the almighty the merciful
208 the god not deity except he for him the names the beautiful
Birmingham Quran ch19v93-ch20v13
http//oi65.tinypic.com/6sxq52.jpgMA VI 165 Quran ch19v97-ch20v16
http//oi64.tinypic.com/2v9sq3t.jpgMA VI 165 Quran ch27v28-40
http//oi63.tinypic.com/2zioifb.jpg2228 to witness they of gains for them and remembered/mention they of name the god in days well-known on what provided them from beast the cattle so eat ye of therein and feed ye of the miserable the poor
2234 and to each community made we of rite of to remembers they of name the god on what provided them from beast the cattle so the deity yours deity one so to him submit ye of and give news the humble ones
MA VI 165 Quran ch22v28-35
http//oi66.tinypic.com/idhd9i.jpg2436 in houses which the god that elevate and remembered therein name his glorify for him therein in the early/morning and the evenings
MA VI 165 Quran ch24v35-42
http//oi65.tinypic.com/2qxx5bs.jpgSo, the Quran from Birmingham is the same as today? Now we have evidence that Quran never changed.
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So, the Quran from Birmingham is the same as today? Now we have evidence that Quran never changed.
Peace, yes MA VI 165 as well (Birmingham is only two pages) which are same as today's except for verse numbering i.e. initials were not counted as separate verses and usage of alif mostly.
e.g. the other day thought there was consistency error with missing alif in 1942 said?
If we look carefully scribes had system to differentiate and applied consistently throughout manuscript...
no alif if address to one person
1942 when said to father his O father minealif if referring to many people
2152 when said to father his and folk hishttps//s27.postimg.org/wn1kjjhbn/MA_VI_165_Quran_ch19v33-v45.jpg
https//s27.postimg.org/6srrtrhbn/MA_VI_165_Quran_ch21v43-v57.jpg
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Peace, yes MA VI 165 as well (Birmingham is only two pages) which are same as today's except for verse numbering i.e. initials were not counted as separate verses and usage of alif mostly.
No numbering, but we can still see the divisions on the pages
http//www.hazardlab.jp/contents/post_info/1/0/5/10504/quran.jpg -
No numbering, but we can still see the divisions on the pages
Peace, there was numbering i.e. dashes at end of verses and larger markings start/end of 10 verses which scribes used as reference and to keep count/checksum; although earliest manuscripts initials had no end verse marks thus not counted/combined into single verse, e.g.
191 kaaf ha ya ain saad (no end verse marks counted as one with next verse)
192 remembrance mercy lord your devotee his Zakariyyahttps//s26.postimg.org/jm1leh6p5/MA_VI_165_Quran_ch18v107-ch19v7.jpg
Here is another early 1st century AH Sana manuscript example end 9128-129 to 107
https//s26.postimg.org/qzurinuw9/Sana_Qur_an_ch9v127-ch10v7.jpg
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Peace, a forum user noticed Tanzil web site, 9127, the word "yarakum" is spelled with 'ya' in the Uthmanic script spelling, and with an 'alif' in the simplified Imlaei script spelling and wanted to confirm with older manuscripts.
There should be no alif in 9127 yarkum/seeth you (plural) same as in examples below...
2440 yarh/seeth it
26218 yarka/seeth you (singular)https//s26.postimg.org/89glfarop/MA_VI_165_Quran_ch24v35-42.jpg
https//s26.postimg.org/ectklgskp/MA_VI_165_Quran_ch26v205-ch27v3.jpg
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peace, thank you to Mazhar for pointing out likay l OR combined likayl
upon checking older manuscripts and usage within context...
(written as two separate words if referring to plural) OR (written as single word if referring to singular)
1670 needs to be consistent with 225 and likewise 3153 with 5723
not correct http//corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(315314)
not correct http//corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(57231)
3153 likay l tazan (plural)
5723 likay l tasaw (plural)not correct http//corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(167011)
correct http//corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(22550)
1670 and among you whom (singular) intends to feeble the upkeep likayl
225 and among you whom (singular) intends to feeble the upkeep likayl
https//s7.postimg.org/wcrewdtqz/MA_VI_165_Quran_ch22v5-11.jpgcorrect http//corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(333732)
3337 likay l being upon the believers (plural) critical
https//s7.postimg.org/4qonbw5az/MA_VI_165_Quran_ch33v33-38.jpgcorrect http//corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(335054)
3350 likayl being upon you (singular) critical
https//s7.postimg.org/k1ygca557/MA_VI_165_Quran_ch33v50-53.jpgcorrect http//corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(59717)
597 kay l being circulation between the rich (plural) -
peace, correction found 1670 verse in old manuscript (Or 2165)
http//www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=or_2165_fs001r#
1670 and the god creation yours furthermore taketh of you and among you whom intends to feeble the upkeep likay/surely that may l/not knoweth after knowledge thing of indeed the god knower supreme
https//s7.postimg.org/n58ve3abf/Or_2165_Quran_manuscipt_ch16v65-75.jpg