Bakka/Mecca
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I see answering questions to you means raising questions to me in return. My God, how old are you?
But we can conclude OnlyOneGodMultipleQiblas demonstrates the following 'reason'
He doesn't know who built the shrine at mecca.
He doesn't know how old it is or if it predates quran.
He doesn't have any sources for what he believes to be the qibla.
He is ignorant to factual data such as no christian influence in the hijaz reason.
He doesn't know where Quran tells him mecca is the qibla, simply because it isn't there. He trusts the hadith to be true on this matter.
He believes God would tolerate the exclusive access to the most sacred by polytheists and thinks as a muslim he is not obliged to safeguard the most sacred.
He is not impressed by any archaeological evidence but prefers the fantastic stories we find in the hadith.
Peace
Difference between you and me is that not only do I believe in the Quran, I also believe in the world wide academic historians opinion, that matches my belief.
You on the other hand, believe in things because you want to believe in things.
This campaign to disprove the existance of Prophet Muhammad and the whole history od Mecca etc is quite old and worn out. You don't want to believe that Muslims recorded a history of their origins. Thats your choice. I think we've been through this roundabout long enough
"To you your religion and to me mine."
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Peace runninglikezebra.
Here is a history quote , similar to your history quotes from your posts,but in disagreement with your point of view
Kaaba & Mecca In History
Edward Gibbon writes about the Ka'bah and its existence before the Christian era in his book
..... of blind mythology of barbarians - of the local deities, of the stars, the air, and the earth, of their sex or titles, their attributes or subordination. Each tribe, each family, each independent worrier, created and changed the rites and the object of this fantastic worship; but the nation, in every age, has bowed to the religion as well as to the language of Mecca. The genuine antiquity of Caaba ascends beyond the Christian era in describing the coast of the Red sea the Greek historian Diodorus has remarked, between the Thamudites and the Sabeans, a famous temple, whose superior sanctity was revered by all the Arabians; the linen of silken veil, which is annually renewed by the Turkish emperor, was first offered by the Homerites, who reigned seven hundred years before the time of Mohammad.
Diodorus Siculus was a Greek historian of 1st century BC who wrote Bibliotheca Historica, a book describing various parts of the discovered world. The following lines are the English translation of Greek quoted by Gibbon from the book of Diodorus Siculus (Diodorus of Sicily) describing the 'temple' considered to be the the holiest in the whole of Arabia
And a temple has been set-up there, which is very holy and exceedingly revered by all Arabians.
It is interesting to know that Claudius Ptolemy of Alexandria, mathematician and astronomer, flourishing about a century after Pliny, undertook to make an atlas of the habitable world. He was not a descriptive geographer, and his book was intended to be no more than a commentary on his maps. He enumerated some hundred and fourteen cities or villages in Arabia Felix.
For example, Dumaetha, placed by Ptolemy just outside the northern boundary of Arabia Felix, must be the mediaeval Arabian Daumet, which is today the chief village of the great oasis of Jauf. Hejr, famous in the "times of ignorance" as the seat of a kingdom, and now Medayin Salih, is Ptolemy's Egra. His Thaim is Teima, now known for its inscriptions to have had temples and some sort of civilization as far back as 500 BC. It is the Tema of Job. In Lathrippa, placed inland from Iambia (Yambo), we recognize the Iathrippa of Stephan of Byzantium, the Yathrib of the early Arab traditions, now honoured as El Medina, the City of Cities.
Apart from this a place called Macoraba is also shown which is identified as Mecca (please refer to the map facing page 17 of reference ). G E von Grunebaum says
Mecca is mentioned by Ptolemy, and the name he gives it allows us to identify it as a South Arabian foundation created around a sanctuary.
The main question should be
Where/what is "Masjid -Al-Haram"?
Of course evidence from Qoran required.
Many thanks.
GOD bless you.
Peace.You are showing me evidence of pre-quranic pagan worship in Arabia. I don't dispute that. It still is a place of pagan worship today. Question is did Jews or Christians ever recognize Mecca like they would recognize their own sons? The question is really simple.
Can you think of any such place in the world that is recognized by muslims, jews and christians that is NOT Jerusalem? Also a simple question.
Peace
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Can you think of any such place in the world that is recognized by muslims, jews and christians that is NOT Jerusalem? Also a simple question.
Peace
I am forced to say this but please remember what I quoted to you from the Quran
"Even if thou wert to bring to the people of the Book all the Signs (together), they would not follow Thy Qibla; nor art thou going to follow their Qibla; nor indeed will they follow each other's Qibla. If thou after the knowledge hath reached thee, Wert to follow their (vain) desires,-then wert thou Indeed (clearly) in the wrong."
What does it matter what the previous Qibla was.
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@OnlyOneGod just out of curiosity what is your nationality?
Peace
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Belgian.
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The verse you quoted do you know what historical events it relates to? To which actors? Clearly the People of The Book who refuse to follow 'Thy qibla' are not all the People of the Book but a specific group, otherwise it would contradict with "The people of the Book know this as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know."
I can identify each of those groups, can you?
Peace
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"Even if thou wert to bring to the people of the Book all the Signs (together), they would not follow Thy Qibla nor art thou going to follow their Qibla; nor indeed will they follow each other's Qibla."
For Jews the qibla was always Jerusalem. Christians don't have a qibla. The christians mentioned here are the byzantines who would never accept a qibla that is associated with the Jews or the Muslims.
Christians expelled the Jews from Jerusalem. In turn certain Jews collaborated with Sassanids (persian polytheists) to reconquer Jerusalem. They are historically known as the Tiberian jews and the followers of Nehemiah ben Hushiel. They betrayed their convenant with God when they sided with polytheists to reconquer Jerusalem. Nehemiah ben Hushiel was a mystic, he was installed into power as an exilarch and there are many indicitations these jews worshipped him like a messianic Ezra.
This verse is telling muslims not to expect these Tiberian Jews or Christians will ever accept your qibla and God is telling them not to follow their example which turned them into polytheists.
Who could God turn to to protect the most sacred? Christians expel and refuse access to Jews. Jews collaborate with polytheists.
Muslims get appointed as a balanced community to establish the correct Qibla once again. The same qibla given to Abraham and to be the guardians of Temple Mount. A promise which is still kept today.
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_Islamic_Waqf
Peace
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Peace runninglikezebras
This verse ,that you keep quoting does not talk about a place or qibla?
The word "Yaarifounahu" is masculine ,It just means they know the "truth" about the new messenger bringing a new scripture! It is written in the Torah and the Gospel.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace runninglikezebras
This verse ,that you keep quoting does not talk about a place or qibla?
The word "Yaarifounahu" is masculine ,It just means they know the "truth" about the new messenger bringing a new scripture! It is written in the Torah and the Gospel.
GOD bless you.
Peace.I suggest you read the entire sura if you think it does not speak about the qibla. If you take the previous verses into account its clearly not speaking about recognizing the truth about a messenger but the truth about the correct qibla.
Peace
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The verse you quoted do you know what historical events it relates to? To which actors? Clearly the People of The Book who refuse to follow 'Thy qibla' are not all the People of the Book but a specific group, otherwise it would contradict with "The people of the Book know this as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know."
I can identify each of those groups, can you?
Peace
"Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in"!!
"The verse you quoted do you know what historical events it relates to? To which actors? "
Does it matter?
"Clearly the People of The Book who refuse to follow 'Thy qibla' are not all the People of the Book but a specific group, otherwise it would contradict with "The people of the Book know this as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know."
You are assuming that this verse talks about the Qibla when none of the major translations say that it is talking about the Qibla. It could be talking about the Quran, as translated by Pickthall, or about Muhammad (PBUH) as translated by Sahih Internationa, Mohsin Khan, Shakir etc.
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"Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in"!!
"The verse you quoted do you know what historical events it relates to? To which actors? "
Does it matter?
"Clearly the People of The Book who refuse to follow 'Thy qibla' are not all the People of the Book but a specific group, otherwise it would contradict with "The people of the Book know this as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know."
You are assuming that this verse talks about the Qibla when none of the major translations say that it is talking about the Qibla. It could be talking about the Quran, as translated by Pickthall, or about Muhammad (PBUH) as translated by Sahih Internationa, Mohsin Khan, Shakir etc.
Amazing! This while the majority of verses leading up to them deal with the qibla. Isn't that weird? Does the previous verse speak of qibla or not? Maybe someone is trying to conceal something?
Peace
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Amazing! This while the majority of verses leading up to them deal with the qibla. Isn't that weird?
Peace
You think its strange that thye people of the book are told to follow the Prophet (PBUH) while talking about the Qibla? Does this translation make sense to you in that context?
"Those to whom We gave the Scripture (Jews and Christians) recognise him (Muhammad SAW or the Ka'bah at Makkah) as they recongise their sons. But verily, a party of them conceal the truth while they know it - . "
Or maybe this translation
"Those whom We have given the Book recognize him as they recognize their sons, and a party of them most surely conceal the truth while they know (it)."
Seems quite logical to me.
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You think its strange that thye people of the book are told to follow the Prophet (PBUH) while talking about the Qibla? Does this translation make sense to you in that context?
"Those to whom We gave the Scripture (Jews and Christians) recognise him (Muhammad SAW or the Ka'bah at Makkah) as they recongise their sons. But verily, a party of them conceal the truth while they know it - . "
My logic mind tells me it is speaking about the truth about the qibla mentioned in the verse before it. Is that irrational of me?
"they recognize it" NOT "they recognize him"
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Erf#(21464)
Peace
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My logic mind tells me it is speaking about the truth about the qibla mentioned in the verse before it. Is that irrational of me?
Peace
So Qibla can be compared to sons while the Prophet cannot?
Wouldn't it be more logical to compare Qibla to one of their religions buildings?
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Ba-Kaf-Kaf (e.g. bakka) = pounding or crushing (al-&unuqa (on) the neck) (daqqul-&unuqa), distinguishing/ranking above others (farraqahu, kharaqahu), jostling, pressing or crowding(crowdszahm), any crowding(or crowds), competition. (izdihaam) heaping/piling together/amassing (taraakib), super-imposition of things on top of other things (taraakim), a man/male having or the trying to have sex with a female, denial or rejection a thing or person's dignity, to humiliate, cancellation/dissolution/breaking, being in need or being stout, muscular or rough from activity, name of a place.
bakkah n. 396
= Miim-Kaf-Kaf = Sucking, Sucking up, Absorbing, drinking up, Destruction/Destroying, diminishing, diminution/failing; failure, to cast, to throw away, to discard, to straighten/tighten or impede/restrict, to beseech/ask/accept, crowding, competition (izdihaam). Makkah (city of).
makkah n.f. 4824
These two words, suggested by a Moroccan friend very well versed in Arabic and in the Qur'an are complementary and are an apt description either litterally or symbolically of the heart.
B-k-k fills up,
M-k-k empties and with that alternation the heart pounds.
An ocurence of that may signal a single place or single correlation of events or a sttern of events. It means the same thing, but a live thing, pumping life sustance or sustenance, either physically or spiritually.
Salaam
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Peace runninglikezebra.
For example what does this mean
What change does this suggest?
Are you saying "Masjid-Al-Haram" is in Jerusalem?
Evidence from Qoran please?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
So Qibla can be compared to sons while the Prophet cannot?
Wouldn't it be more logical to compare Qibla to one of their religions buildings?
Is the prophet a thing? Do you call the prophet IT?
Peace
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Peace runninglikezebra.
For example what does this mean
What change does this suggest?
Are you saying "Masjid-Al-Haram" is in Jerusalem?
Evidence from Qoran please?
GOD bless you.
Peace.Good logic, I think I gave my perspective of those verses in earlier posts, please consult them before asking me. If not, people will accuse me of repeating. To save you work, I deny those verses speak about a change at all. If you see a change in them please tell me where you see it and what evidence you see for it.
Peace
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Is the prophet a thing? Do you call the prophet IT?
Peace
None of the major translations say "it".