Bakka/Mecca
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You can find those yourself, look for old jewish manuscripts and christian manuscripts referring to Baca. You can find the references to the verses in my previous posts. A geographic feature is not a city, you dufus.
Peace
Again with the biblical references. You say that the bible lies about Jesus being a son of God and then quote it as a historical record to "a geographic feature" which no one other than your bible group has heard about and then rudely refer to me as a dufus? Not very intelligent of you. Kindly show us records of this "geographic feature" ever having existed historically, next to or within Jerusalem.
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Again with the biblical references. You say that the bible lies about Jesus being a son of God and then quote it as a historical record to "a geographic feature" which no one other than your bible group has heard about and then rudely refer to me as a dufus? Not very intelligent of you. Kindly show us records of this "geographic feature" ever having existed historically, next to or within Jerusalem.
Don't worry I'm not part of a bible group. Again I can only refer you to the references in the old testament (manuscripts that have been carbon dated) making evident the place baca was known to the Jewish and situated in Jerusalem. Stop asking me the same question over and over again, are you trying to ignore the evidence I posted showing the qibla of all the early mosques until some dufus caliph decided on his own initiative to destroy all of those and orientate them differently?
Peace
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In the centre of Jerusalem sits an imposing structure (even today) called the Dome of the Rock, built by Abd al-Malik in 691 A.D. One will note, however, that the Dome of the Rock is not a mosque, as it has no Qibla (no direction for prayer). It is built as an octagon with eight pillars 14, suggesting it was used for circumambulation (to walk around). Thus, it seems to have been built as a sanctuary (Glasse 1991102). Today it is considered to be the third most holy site in Islam, after Mecca and Medina. Muslims contend that it was built to commemorate the night when Muhammad went up to heaven to speak with Moses and Allah concerning the number of prayers required of the believers (known as the Mi?raj in Arabic) 15.
Yet, according to the research carried out on the inscriptions on the walls of the building by Van Berchem and Nevo, they say nothing of the Mi?raj, but state mere polemical quotations which are Qur?anic, though they are aimed primarily at Christians. The inscriptions attest the messianic status of Jesus, the acceptance of the prophets, Muhammad?s receipt of revelation, and the use of the terms ?islam? and ?muslim? 16. Why, if the Dome of the Rock were built to commemorate that momentous event, does it saying nothing about it? Perhaps this building was built for other purposes than that of commemorating the Mi?raj. The fact that such an imposing structure was built so early suggests that this and not Mecca became the sanctuary and the centre of a nascent Islam up until at least the late seventh century, 17! -
I believe it does. But Quran doesn't tell us the jewish qibla to be wrong. Neither does Quran tell us the qibla is to be changed. The order to change the qibla came from Caliph Walid I as archaelogical evidence points out.
You are going off-topic to demonstrate a point, so I'll oblige. The instructions in Quran overrule any of the older scriptures. But see above. The order to change qibla did not come from God, it came from caliph Walid I.
Well in Yemen they did find a church dating back to that era. But like I said any historical evidence is good. Inscriptions, manuscripts, etc.
Peace
"I believe it does. But Quran doesn't tell us the jewish qibla to be wrong. Neither does Quran tell us the qibla is to be changed. The order to change the qibla came from Caliph Walid I as archaelogical evidence points out."
So you think the following is not a command by God to change Qibla? And please make the effort to read all of it and tell me that God did not change the Qibla
Quran
"(Our religion is) the Baptism of Allah And who can baptize better than Allah? And it is He Whom we worship."
"Say Will ye dispute with us about Allah, seeing that He is our Lord and your Lord; that we are responsible for our doings and ye for yours; and that We are sincere (in our faith) in Him?"
"Or say ye that Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes were Jews or Christians? Say Do ye know best, or doth Allah? And who is more unjust than he who hideth a testimony which he hath received from Allah? Allah is not unaware of what ye do."
"That was a people that hath passed away. They shall reap the fruit of what they did, and ye of what ye do! Of their merits there is no question in your case"
"The fools among the people will say "What hath turned them from the Qibla to which they were used?" Say To Allah belong both east and West He guideth whom He will to a Way that is straight."
"Thus We have appointed you a middle nation, that ye may be witnesses against mankind, and that the messenger may be a witness against you. And We appointed the qiblah which ye formerly observed only that We might know him who followeth the messenger, from him who turneth on his heels. In truth it was a hard (test) save for those whom Allah guided. But it was not Allah's purpose that your faith should be in vain, for Allah is Full of Pity, Merciful toward mankind."
"We have seen the turning of thy face to heaven (for guidance, O Muhammad). And now verily We shall make thee turn (in prayer) toward a qiblah which is dear to thee. So turn thy face toward the Inviolable Place of Worship, and ye (O Muslims), wheresoever ye may be, turn your faces (when ye pray) toward it. Lo! Those who have received the Scripture know that (this revelation) is the Truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do."
"Even if thou wert to bring to the people of the Book all the Signs (together), they would not follow Thy Qibla; nor art thou going to follow their Qibla; nor indeed will they follow each other's Qibla. If thou after the knowledge hath reached thee, Wert to follow their (vain) desires,-then wert thou Indeed (clearly) in the wrong."
"The people of the Book know this as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know."
"The Truth is from thy Lord; so be not at all in doubt. "So then do you believe in Gods words?
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"I believe it does. But Quran doesn't tell us the jewish qibla to be wrong. Neither does Quran tell us the qibla is to be changed. The order to change the qibla came from Caliph Walid I as archaelogical evidence points out."
So you think the following is not a command by God to change Qibla? And please make the effort to read all of it and tell me that God did not change the Qibla
Quran
"(Our religion is) the Baptism of Allah And who can baptize better than Allah? And it is He Whom we worship."
"Say Will ye dispute with us about Allah, seeing that He is our Lord and your Lord; that we are responsible for our doings and ye for yours; and that We are sincere (in our faith) in Him?"
"Or say ye that Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes were Jews or Christians? Say Do ye know best, or doth Allah? And who is more unjust than he who hideth a testimony which he hath received from Allah? Allah is not unaware of what ye do."
"That was a people that hath passed away. They shall reap the fruit of what they did, and ye of what ye do! Of their merits there is no question in your case"
"The fools among the people will say "What hath turned them from the Qibla to which they were used?" Say To Allah belong both east and West He guideth whom He will to a Way that is straight."
"Thus We have appointed you a middle nation, that ye may be witnesses against mankind, and that the messenger may be a witness against you. And We appointed the qiblah which ye formerly observed only that We might know him who followeth the messenger, from him who turneth on his heels. In truth it was a hard (test) save for those whom Allah guided. But it was not Allah's purpose that your faith should be in vain, for Allah is Full of Pity, Merciful toward mankind."
"We have seen the turning of thy face to heaven (for guidance, O Muhammad). And now verily We shall make thee turn (in prayer) toward a qiblah which is dear to thee. So turn thy face toward the Inviolable Place of Worship, and ye (O Muslims), wheresoever ye may be, turn your faces (when ye pray) toward it. Lo! Those who have received the Scripture know that (this revelation) is the Truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do."
"Even if thou wert to bring to the people of the Book all the Signs (together), they would not follow Thy Qibla; nor art thou going to follow their Qibla; nor indeed will they follow each other's Qibla. If thou after the knowledge hath reached thee, Wert to follow their (vain) desires,-then wert thou Indeed (clearly) in the wrong."
"The people of the Book know this as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know."
"The Truth is from thy Lord; so be not at all in doubt. "So then do you believe in Gods words?
The verse you highlighted seems to fit you pretty well don't you think? You have the Book with all the Signs (Quran) and still you don't know your Qibla.
Peace
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The verse you highlighted seems to fit you pretty well don't you think? You have the Book with all the Signs (Quran) and still you don't know your Qibla.
Peace
I told you to read all of it ... plz don't be lazy. I highlighted another part for your benefit.
And BTW "People of the book" are the christians and the Jews.
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What makes you think I'm unfamiliar with those verses?
If People of the Book are christian and Jews then you contradict with
"The people of the Book know this as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know."
None of the christians or jews recognize mecca like they recognize their sons. Literally zero. Jerusalem is recognized though by muslims, christians and jews.
Peace
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peace runninglikezebras.
You say
I'd still like to see that quranic proof for Mecca locating masjid al haram. So far I have those in support of mecca only seen avoiding precise questions.
Qoran says 4827
Please translate and give evidence where this " Masjid al-Haram" is?
Thank you.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
What makes you think I'm unfamiliar with those verses?
If People of the Book are christian and Jews then you contradict with
"If People of the Book are christian and Jews then you contradict with
The people of the Book know this as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know."
None of the christians or jews recognize mecca like they recognize their sons. Literally zero. Jerusalem is recognized though by muslims, christians and jews.
Peace
Well it is quite obvious that you are unfamiliar with these verses otherwise you would never claim that we as Muslims follow the qibla of the Christians and the Jews.
"The people of the Book know this as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know."
Contradict with what? That the qibla has been changed (as clearly mentioned in the above verses)? Kindly elaborate.
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peace runninglikezebras.
You say
I'd still like to see that quranic proof for Mecca locating masjid al haram. So far I have those in support of mecca only seen avoiding precise questions.
Qoran says 4827
Please translate and give evidence where this " Masjid al-Haram" is?
Thank you.
GOD bless you.
Peace.Am I some kind of translator robot now? You can find the translation yourself. To identfy this place
"The people of the Book know this as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know."
None of the christians or jews recognize mecca like they recognize their sons. Literally zero. Jerusalem is recognized though by muslims, christians and jews.
Like posted above. There is no such place in the world that is recognized by all the abrahamic faiths. It's not that hard to find out where masjid al haram is. Still today temple mount is called sharif al haram.
Peace
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Well it is quite obvious that you are unfamiliar with these verses otherwise you would never claim that we as Muslims follow the qibla of the Christians and the Jews.
"The people of the Book know this as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know."
Contradict with what? That the qibla has been changed (as clearly mentioned in the above verses)? Kindly elaborate.
That verse contradicts with mecca as a possible candidate. The qibla has never been changed by Gods or his messenger authority. We know caliph Walid I changed the qibla. As demonstrated by archealogy of early mosques. The earliest archaelogical evidence of a qibla towards mecca is 8th century. Well after the lifespan of Muhammad.
Peace
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This is still a one way debate in which the meccans like to ask me questions while avoiding mine. Here's my list again
Please answer these questions
Who built the shrine at mecca?
How old is the masjid al haram in mecca?
What source do you have proving who built the masjid al haram in mecca and when?
Do you claim there was christian influence in the hijaz region?
Where in Quran do you see Mecca named as the qibla?
Do you agree Quran says hindering access to masjid al haram is a great injustice?
If you do, how do you justify that with the practice of only allowing muslims at Mecca?
Thank you.
Please answer these questions.
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"The people of the Book know this as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know."
None of the christians or jews recognize mecca like they recognize their sons. Literally zero. Jerusalem is recognized though by muslims, christians and jews.
Like posted above. There is no such place in the world that is recognized by all the abrahamic faiths. It's not that hard to find out where masjid al haram is. Still today temple mount is called sharif al haram.
Peace
Did you not yourself say that these abrahamic faiths recognize Bekka?
You couldn't find any historical record to place bekka in Jerusalem. But we know that the Qur'an refers to it.
Seems to me more of an issue about you not accepting Quran rather than anything else.
Quran is a reminder to mankind, and thus to expect the Jews and the Christians to know what their Prophets were talking about is not feasible. You yourself accept that the christians are wrong when they talk about the trinity. So then why would you accept that they know where bekka is located when the Quran is giving you clear answers to it?
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Quran is giving clear answers
"The people of the Book know this as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know."
This is literally what Quran says about the qibla. Some of the jewish and christians conceal the truth. Telling us the majority knows where this is.
Again baca can only be identified in Jerusalem. As only the baca in Jerusalem fits that description. Mecca never fitted that description. If you think it does please provide sources attesting at least some christians and jews recognized Mecca to be a site of pilgrimage. They don't exist.
Then you tell me I have a problem accepting Quran? That made me smile, seriously.
Peace
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This is still a one way debate in which the meccans like to ask me questions while avoiding mine. Here's my list again
Please answer these questions
Who built the shrine at mecca?
How old is the masjid al haram in mecca?
What source do you have proving who built the masjid al haram in mecca and when?
Do you claim there was christian influence in the hijaz region?
Where in Quran do you see Mecca named as the qibla?
Do you agree Quran says hindering access to masjid al haram is a great injustice?
If you do, how do you justify that with the practice of only allowing muslims at Mecca?
Thank you.
Please answer these questions.
"Who built the shrine at mecca?"
Who built the shrine at the temple mount. Actually the better question would be. Was there ever anything Jewish related on the temple mount that you pray to? Atleast we know that the Kaaba is there in Mecca, and have never had any proof to show that there never was a Kaaba in Mecca (other than your fantasies).
"How old is the masjid al haram in mecca?"
The Masjid al Haram keeps being renovated. And it is renovated because we don't care about the rocks it is made of. It is simply a direction of Prayer.
How old is the temple Mount? and how come the Jews have yet to prove its link to any abrahamic prophet?"What source do you have proving who built the masjid al haram in mecca and when?"
What source do you have for proving these things related to your Qibla in Jerusalem?
"Do you claim there was christian influence in the hijaz region?"
I have no reason to doubt it. What is your proof to doubt the whole academic world on this, including the vast majority of western non-muslim scholars. It is you who is on the weak wicket on this issue, not me.
"Where in Quran do you see Mecca named as the qibla?"
Where do you see Jerusalem being named as the Qibla. What we DO see is God telling us to follow Muhammad (PBUH) in the direction of Qibla. Unless you think that Mohammad (PBUH) never lived in the Hijaz, and was never a leader of a vast Arab empire at the time of his death. Do you think he was a figment of the Hadithers imagination?
"if you do, how do you justify that with the practice of only allowing muslims at Mecca?"
How does the saudi governments decision have anything to do with the message of God? Does Allah (SWT) say anywhere in the Quran that non-muslims are not allowed. If he does then thats Gods decision, not mine.
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I see answering questions to you means raising questions to me in return. My God, how old are you?
But we can conclude OnlyOneGodMultipleQiblas demonstrates the following 'reason'
He doesn't know who built the shrine at mecca.
He doesn't know how old it is or if it predates quran.
He doesn't have any sources for what he believes to be the qibla.
He is ignorant to factual data such as no christian influence in the hijaz reason.
He doesn't know where Quran tells him mecca is the qibla, simply because it isn't there. He trusts the hadith to be true on this matter.
He believes God would tolerate the exclusive access to the most sacred by polytheists and thinks as a muslim he is not obliged to safeguard the most sacred.
He is not impressed by any archaeological evidence but prefers the fantastic stories we find in the hadith.
Peace
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Quran is giving clear answers
"The people of the Book know this as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know."
This is literally what Quran says about the qibla. Some of the jewish and christians conceal the truth. Telling us the majority knows where this is.
Again baca can only be identified in Jerusalem. As only the baca in Jerusalem fits that description. Mecca never fitted that description. If you think it does please provide sources attesting at least some christians and jews recognized Mecca to be a site of pilgrimage. They don't exist.
Then you tell me I have a problem accepting Quran? That made me smile, seriously.
Peace
Well the christians and the Jews living there DID know the truth. You simply want to ignore those people.
"Again baca can only be identified in Jerusalem."
As per whom? You have yet to give any solid evidence on this other than your love for quoting the bible. At one time you claim that the bible is false and then go on to use it as a historical grid reference for places no one has heard of. I would suggest that u choose a side and stick to it.
"As only the baca in Jerusalem fits that description."
Which description of Baca? By whom?
" If you think it does please provide sources attesting at least some christians and jews recognized Mecca to be a site of pilgrimage."
The christian writers of the bible were not Prophets of God, therefore, for them to not know the actual location of baca is understandable. Why would they mention a place like Mecca where they had never even visited it?
God in his last message sent a Messenger to that location, whether you want to believe or not is obviously up to you.
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I'm sort of done with debating with you OnlyOneGod, you don't show much rationality.
If you still claim the hadith to be true when the archaeological evidence of the qibla of early mosques contradicts this, then you are simply insane in my book. There is no mosque that can be dated to the 7th century pointing to Mecca. Not one testimony of the qibla being mecca that can be dated to 7th century. Your meccan qibla is only supported by hadith and contradicted not only by Quran, but by the entire historical record.
Peace
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Peace runninglikezebra.
Here is a history quote , similar to your history quotes from your posts,but in disagreement with your point of view
Kaaba & Mecca In History
Edward Gibbon writes about the Ka'bah and its existence before the Christian era in his book
..... of blind mythology of barbarians - of the local deities, of the stars, the air, and the earth, of their sex or titles, their attributes or subordination. Each tribe, each family, each independent worrier, created and changed the rites and the object of this fantastic worship; but the nation, in every age, has bowed to the religion as well as to the language of Mecca. The genuine antiquity of Caaba ascends beyond the Christian era in describing the coast of the Red sea the Greek historian Diodorus has remarked, between the Thamudites and the Sabeans, a famous temple, whose superior sanctity was revered by all the Arabians; the linen of silken veil, which is annually renewed by the Turkish emperor, was first offered by the Homerites, who reigned seven hundred years before the time of Mohammad.
Diodorus Siculus was a Greek historian of 1st century BC who wrote Bibliotheca Historica, a book describing various parts of the discovered world. The following lines are the English translation of Greek quoted by Gibbon from the book of Diodorus Siculus (Diodorus of Sicily) describing the 'temple' considered to be the the holiest in the whole of Arabia
And a temple has been set-up there, which is very holy and exceedingly revered by all Arabians.
It is interesting to know that Claudius Ptolemy of Alexandria, mathematician and astronomer, flourishing about a century after Pliny, undertook to make an atlas of the habitable world. He was not a descriptive geographer, and his book was intended to be no more than a commentary on his maps. He enumerated some hundred and fourteen cities or villages in Arabia Felix.
For example, Dumaetha, placed by Ptolemy just outside the northern boundary of Arabia Felix, must be the mediaeval Arabian Daumet, which is today the chief village of the great oasis of Jauf. Hejr, famous in the "times of ignorance" as the seat of a kingdom, and now Medayin Salih, is Ptolemy's Egra. His Thaim is Teima, now known for its inscriptions to have had temples and some sort of civilization as far back as 500 BC. It is the Tema of Job. In Lathrippa, placed inland from Iambia (Yambo), we recognize the Iathrippa of Stephan of Byzantium, the Yathrib of the early Arab traditions, now honoured as El Medina, the City of Cities.
Apart from this a place called Macoraba is also shown which is identified as Mecca (please refer to the map facing page 17 of reference ). G E von Grunebaum says
Mecca is mentioned by Ptolemy, and the name he gives it allows us to identify it as a South Arabian foundation created around a sanctuary.
The main question should be
Where/what is "Masjid -Al-Haram"?
Of course evidence from Qoran required.
Many thanks.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
The christian writers of the bible were not Prophets of God, therefore, for them to not know the actual location of baca is understandable. Why would they mention a place like Mecca where they had never even visited it?
God in his last message sent a Messenger to that location, whether you want to believe or not is obviously up to you.
This shows how little logic you have. Quran says people of the Book recognize the place like their sons. Here you are saying they never even visited Mecca while still pretending Quran says the qibla is in Mecca. You sir are crazy in the coconut. Delusional.
Peace