Christians will be punished and are wicked???...
-
6111
And though We should send down the angels unto them, and the dead should speak unto them, and We should gather against them all things in array, they would not believe unless Allah so willed. Howbeit, most of them are ignorant. -
4056
Behold, as for those who call God?s messages in question without having any evidence therefore in their hearts is nothing but overweening self-conceit, which they will never be able to satisfy seek thou, then, refuge with God - for, verily, He alone is all-hearing, all-seeing!4056
Surely (as for) those who dispute about the communications of Allah without any authority that has come to them, there is naught in their breasts but (a desire) to become great which they shall never attain to; Therefore seek refuge in Allah, surely He is the Hearing, the Seeing. -
Hmm.. fair enough. But I think you made a point that this verse doesn't refer to Christians as I don't hear them say God is the Messiah and neither do I hear them say God is a third of 3... It would be more that God is a manifestation in 3 forms as you said, the father the son and the spirit. In fact, I think 99% of religions that have multiple "Gods" don't see them as separate deities as such. It's like they might say the God of love and God of hate.. really, they most likely acknowledge that they all form one supreme God. I don't think that believing in such a way is "bad" as long as there is an acknowledgement of that following a system of justice, kindness and universal human rights is the ultimate system they should be following. People say believe in the one God... But what is God? That you cannot answer... Though you can describe its attributes. If God encapsules the sun, moon, sea, land etc, then what are we told to believe in? When God speaks of shirk, is it really about multiple Gods? Yes, serving something that doesn't harm nor benefit you is pointless, and I dislike pagans for this, but there is something deeper as to why shirk is condemned... As armaniz pointed out, shirk is described as unforgivable. People who say God is a third of 3 can be forgiven, so is this shirk? I think not...
But is shirk something that "diverts" you from the straight path to "God"? I.e. following your own desires and ego and arrogance, strutting the earth like the unbeatable, like you have power to deceive and make people follow your own ideas, your own religion, brainwash people to satisfy your insecure needs of power. To me that is shirk, people who are simply ignorant to the truth have an obligation to not be ignorant and seek truth as well as possible, but those who cover the truth, who know the truth but speak lies and falsities to gain power and brainwash and cause corruption and oppression, these are the rejectors, the kafara...
If I am wrong, May I stand corrected.
Peace
Salaam Sushi,
You may have noticed, the Qur'an, does not or mainly does not condemn people by atnia or religion or whatever distinction, but by what they do or do not do. It is the people themselves who put themselves in the slot by their actions and ommissions. It is not that God takes a collective and pronnounces slavation or condemnation.
Want it or not we are the heroes of our own battles. putting on ourselves a label is doing nothing for us. Or even ahdering innocently out of a sense of loyalty to a label, is going to do nothing for us.
As to what the Christians say I merely pointed out certain things, concerning the formulation in the Qur'an and concenring my actual observation of facts as I have come to known them, and I did that for the sake of clarity.
I think I mentionned in this thread, if not in another one, one saying, may be a hadith, but I really cannot remember which goes
Shirk is when you fear other than God.
There you have it. Shirt is in us, we fear many things, porbably more than God. Not falling into shirk is our daily battle. It is not something that happens to people who have this or that image and bend in front of it though of course that applies to it too, it is in us. It is a matter of growing in certainty.
My own idea of religions and more pricesely that of the anciente egyptions and that of Aztecs, for me it is undoubtedly monotheist, but the names of God, which we learn in the Qur'an, are formulated somehow else. I do not much about religion of the anciente egyptians but it comes accross to me as very spiritual and real understanding of rahma and justice. As to the old azte religion, that I am 100% it was monotheist. They had very clear concept of the unity of Go and of the infinite manifestations, in degrees, like, the had what is purported in other religions to be our earliest fathers for them, to put it in "pagan" language, which they did not use, it was first manifestations down the scale of them; godess-2, go-2, that is first their a manifestation in the splitting of two, then three, whatever number you care, and that is why, the same as the names of God in the Qur'an which grated into one another, the deities graded into one another, that is the same one turned another one under certain conditions.
In spite of it all, and just as happens with every people in the world, the tendency to give too much weight to the manifestations or the saints or the deceased prophets, or whatever, is always there. God, abstract idea of God may be too much for people to get close too and they become attached to Saint Rit, or whatever... But that I think happens in every religion, because it is in the persons themselves. Others worship their beloved one, make him or her the foundation of everything...
And I already pointed out the three enemies of the soul of the chatholic catchism world, devil and flesh, they are like a trinity of evil that many of us worship, sometimes we fall more for one or two of the three, but any one you fall in love with will lead to your undoing.
Then, there is another aspect, and it is the passional aspect. Many people may have a funny mental idea of Godness, but as far as feeling, passion, is concerned, they are right, they are compassionate, fair and just to a fault, selfless self-giving. The mental for them is not the ruler, so they in fact are right and truthful. Let us not forget the names of God. Your mentl idea may be off, but while you are compassionate and act so for others, in fsct you are fully woshipping the Compassionate, just as you worship the Ghafur, when you forgive others...
For those religions which had human or animal or things representations of the names of God, what is important is the real pressence of the essence of man, if a human representation of a virtue inspires the person to be the qualities represented by the human representation, wll and good. I think for instance, of Isis, ?what a moving story! and what stimulus to be perseverant in doing good and trusting God in a quest for giving self for the life of others... It supposed it is an allegory, but a very moving and effective one.
Labels do not make a good or bad person, sincerity and good deeds do.
Salaam
-
Freedom,
You have serious interpretation problems, in reading what I write.
You seem to see it as if God is nothing to me and I do not understand from where you get this notion. And you write that I can take my life and well I would if I could.
It is not about distaste for this world, it is just that this world is a mere illusion and not really the real world. Fleshly indulgence is the trap of this world.
And I said God runs the world as a kind of simulation although God sustains it. It is a "platform" that is dependent on God and God is the sole Administrator.
And are you going to blame God for you unrighteously laughing at me? You have already been disrespectful against the God you make into such image.
And if you think qatal means fight then you are on really thin ice. You missed the point completely.
I have the deepest respect for my 'Rabb', but I do not involve God in unrighteousness.
Have faith
-
Freedom,
You have serious interpretation problems, in reading what I write.
You seem to see it as if God is nothing to me and I do not understand from where you get this notion. And you write that I can take my life and well I would if I could.
It is not about distaste for this world, it is just that this world is a mere illusion and not really the real world. Fleshly indulgence is the trap of this world.
And I said God runs the world as a kind of simulation although God sustains it. It is a "platform" that is dependent on God and God is the sole Administrator.
And are you going to blame God for you unrighteously laughing at me? You have already been disrespectful against the God you make into such image.
And if you think qatal means fight then you are on really thin ice. You missed the point completely.
I have the deepest respect for my 'Rabb', but I do not involve God in unrighteousness.
Have faith
I think you might be mistaken, I'm the one who says God is like nothing. You seem to believe in some abstract realm that you hope to will yourself to assimilate with, I believe God is Annihilation, Death, Absolute Non-Information, so can not be experienced directly, but creates all information, but can not be "assimilated with" or become a "co-creator with" (I know you aren't saying the co-creator thing), but when you cease to experience any information and are thus not individuated by a set of information you are experiencing as "yourself" it is called "returning to God" but "you" can't experience that, as there is nothing at all to experience, God is not made of information, God creates all information, and God is only One, nothing can be partnered with it, everything is information and fettered and bound by God to do as God wills, God animates all aspects of this shimmering curtain, and behind the curtain is Nothing but Annihilation.
-
Freedom,
You have serious interpretation problems, in reading what I write.
You seem to see it as if God is nothing to me and I do not understand from where you get this notion. And you write that I can take my life and well I would if I could.
It is not about distaste for this world, it is just that this world is a mere illusion and not really the real world. Fleshly indulgence is the trap of this world.
And I said God runs the world as a kind of simulation although God sustains it. It is a "platform" that is dependent on God and God is the sole Administrator.
And are you going to blame God for you unrighteously laughing at me? You have already been disrespectful against the God you make into such image.
And if you think qatal means fight then you are on really thin ice. You missed the point completely.
I have the deepest respect for my 'Rabb', but I do not involve God in unrighteousness.
Have faith
God is the source of the good and the bad, if you read the numerous quotes I provided from the Bible, you might see the same message there as well. Lord of Evil, Master of Good, King of Devils, who binds and fetters all wills, ALL CREATIONS, EVEN THE CREATION CALLED "unrighteousness" is from GOD, don't let your piety make you blasphemy (but you will say as God bids you to say).
God sends the delusion on people, the Bible says so too. God makes them fight, God hardens their hearts, God makes them say what they say, it is all God, the Bible says it, the Qur'an says it, the Old Testament says it, the New Testament says it, and I showed so many verses, why not take a peak? Surely you can will yourself to do it, no? You can never do it, unless Allah wills you to do it
2868
Thy Lord bringeth to pass what He willeth and chooseth. They have never any choice. Glorified be Allah and Exalted above all that they associate (with Him)!7630
Yet ye will not, unless Allah willeth. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.1839
And "Alas, if thou hadst but said, on entering thy garden, `Whatever God wills there is no power save with God!' Although, as thou seest, I have less wealth and offspring than thou,449
Art thou not aware of those who consider themselves pure? Nay, but it is God who causes whomever He wills to grow in purity; and no mistake is made as much as a hair's breadth.450
Behold how they attribute their own lying inventions to God - than which there is no sin more obvious.451
Have you not seen those to whom a portion of the Book has been given? They believe in idols and false deities and say of those who disbelieve These are better guided in the path than those who believe. (Do you say this?)452
It is they whom God has rejected and he whom God rejects shall find none to succour him. -
Freedom,
You have serious interpretation problems, in reading what I write.
You seem to see it as if God is nothing to me and I do not understand from where you get this notion. And you write that I can take my life and well I would if I could.
It is not about distaste for this world, it is just that this world is a mere illusion and not really the real world. Fleshly indulgence is the trap of this world.
And I said God runs the world as a kind of simulation although God sustains it. It is a "platform" that is dependent on God and God is the sole Administrator.
And are you going to blame God for you unrighteously laughing at me? You have already been disrespectful against the God you make into such image.
And if you think qatal means fight then you are on really thin ice. You missed the point completely.
I have the deepest respect for my 'Rabb', but I do not involve God in unrighteousness.
Have faith
What image? I'm the one who says God is not made of information, you are the one who says God is something that can be experienced (only information can be experienced), so who makes the image? You are the one who implies God is just letting the simulation run and upholding it while you choose where you go, and you seem not to realize that even the "events" that happen are "creations" of Allah, not just "made of creations of Allah" but "are creations of Allah" you are just receiving information from Allah, your will is the will of Allah really, what you think is from Allah really
6844
Leave Me (to deal) with those who give the lie to this pronouncement. We shall lead them on by steps from whence they know not. -
Salaam Sushi,
You may have noticed, the Qur'an, does not or mainly does not condemn people by atnia or religion or whatever distinction, but by what they do or do not do. It is the people themselves who put themselves in the slot by their actions and ommissions. It is not that God takes a collective and pronnounces slavation or condemnation.
7179
And most certainly have We destined for hell many of the jinn and men; who have hearts with which they fail to grasp the truth, and eyes with which they fail to see, and ears with which they fail to hear. They are like cattle -nay, they are even less conscious of the right way it is they, they who are the heedless!716
Satan said Because Thou hadst led me into error, certainly, I will sit in ambush for them on Thy path, one that is straight.639
And those who denied Our signs are unwilling to hear and unwilling to speak. They are in the shadows. Whomever God wills, He causes to go astray. And whomever He wills, He lays on a straight path.2868
Thy Lord bringeth to pass what He willeth and chooseth. They have never any choice. Nothing is Allah! and Exalted above all that they associate (with Him)!6125
And whomsoever it is Allah's will to guide, He expandeth his bosom unto the Surrender, and whomsoever it is His Will to send astray, He maketh his bosom close and narrow as if he were engaged in sheer ascent. Thus Allah layeth ignominy upon those who believe not.
You have no choice in the matter
7630
But you cannot will it unless God wills for, behold, God is indeed all-seeing, wise.God doesn't follow you, you follow God's command. You do not command God and make God follow after you laying forth what happens for you, you have no command, the command is Allah's only.
2106
Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things? -
Congratulations then Freedom. Unfortunately it does seem like a hypocritical statement because God is an image according to your ways of presenting God to me. Your understanding of God is heavily materialized. God is not an image representation of an object whatsoever to me so it is a kind of unfounded accusation you come up with.
God sustains everything and is the only "entity" in existence and we are part of that existence. We should be an integral part of it and that does not mean indulgence in the illusive flesh, because that is not the real reality. A jinn is a worldly person who has not understood the importance in life.
Unrighteousness is not from God. Stop humiliating God will you?
There is a reason why God carries the adjective Al-Rahman in the beginning of nearly every chapter right after Allah. It suggest strongly a good foundation.
And even in sectarian interpretations it is written that all the bad is from yourselves.
Have faith
Salaam -
All this, is only to prove or make manifest who it is who really Surrenders.
-
But it seems like you like the passivity of your faith and could it be that it shows in your personal representation. It is not a help to your salvation to think you cannot affect your fate, because you can. It is called willpower and the right path is to aim for anti-materialism and work on your spiritual self.
All this, is only to prove or make manifest who it is who really Surrenders.
Indeed it does. You have surrendered to passivity, have you not? Because you do not have to care about anything for God controls you, does God not? If you make fun of me then God did it and not you? Talk about disrespect towards your foundation.
Salaam
-
Congratulations then Freedom. Unfortunately it does seem like a hypocritical statement because God is an image according to your ways of presenting God to me. Your understanding of God is heavily materialized. God is not an image representation of an object whatsoever to me so it is a kind of unfounded accusation you come up with.
God sustains everything and is the only "entity" in existence and we are part of that existence. We should be an integral part of it and that does not mean indulgence in the illusive flesh, because that is not the real reality. A jinn is a worldly person who has not understood the importance in life.
Unrighteousness is not from God. Stop humiliating God will you?
There is a reason why God carries the adjective Al-Rahman in the beginning of nearly every chapter right after Allah. It suggest strongly a good foundation.
And even in sectarian interpretations it is written that all the bad is from yourselves.
Have faith
SalaamMaybe you really can't see? I have shown it so many times now
478
Wherever you may be, death will overtake you - even though you be in towers raised high. "Yet, when a good thing happens to them, some say, "This is from God," whereas when evil befalls them, they say, "This is from thee !? Say "All is from God." What, then, is amiss with these people that they are in no wise near to grasping the truth of what they are told?Allah makes you do it with your own hands if Allah so wills, he leads you on, not a breath you take is by your own strength or will, it is Allah who wills it
5659
Is it you that create it or are We the creators?The Compassionate, and who other than Allah, who encompasses and creates all information, and encompasses your senses and knows all your experiences thoroughly and experiences them, is Compassionate but Allah? Do you know what the word Compassion means, and what Rahman means? They both mean the same thing, it makes Allah experiences all information Allah creates, it is not an ability you have at all, you can't know what I'm experiencing, only Allah knows thoroughly the experience inside and out. It doesn't mean "bound to do only what you deem "good" to be", Allah is unbound, free, and does whatever Allah wills, creates whatever Allah wills.
You do not create the events of your life, you do not produce the information, you do not command the results, you do not command the actions, you do not make Allah chase after you, you are running by the command of Allah, you are doing by the command of Allah, and even your will is the will of Allah only, you are nothing except what Allah makes you and makes you experience at any moment
2868
Thy Lord bringeth to pass what He willeth and chooseth. They have never any choice. Nothing is Allah! and Exalted above all that they associate (with Him)!7630
But you cannot will it unless Allah wills for, behold, God is indeed all-seeing, wise.
He maketh whom He will to enter His mercy, and for evil-doers hath prepared a painful doom.
You can't do it, only Allah can do it, and you can not make Allah do it, Allah does whatever Allah wills, and Allah is the Lord of everything, Creator of everything, the bad and the good are All from Allah, and Allah is the one who makes them do it
6112
AND THUS it is that against every prophet We make as enemies the evil forces from among humans as well as from among invisible beings that whisper unto one another glittering half-truths meant to delude the mind But they could not do this unless thy Sustainer had so willed stand, therefore, aloof from them and from all their inventions!
I am the one who says that God is not any information, literally no image, and you seem to say that God is a spiritual realm perhaps and that you are a co-creator with God perhaps, or can be (and even if you do not say this directly, you say it in the following way) by saying that You create your destiny, You create your fate, You create your own decisions, You will a thing and You make it happen, that Allah only supports what You decide, that Allah is thus like a Servant that does Your Will. So that when You decide to stand up, Allah make it so by supporting YOUR decisions, NO. You do not command Allah, Allah commands you, if Allah makes you stand up, you will stand up, even if you think the thoughts are your own, those thoughts came from Allah, they are information created by Allah, all events are created by Allah, if Allah wills you to stand, you will stand.
Everything in the Heavens and the Earth obeys Allah and is submissive to his will, willingly or unwillingly, there is never any choice, no "free will" except Allah who wills freely, who is not bound to his promises, his words, or justice, but does and creates whatever, and can change it in an instant.
You try to make yourself a God with Allah, by saying that You decide things, and Allah follows and upholds you and your decisions. Then you literally also say and imagine what seems like "experiencing God" or "Being God" when God is NOT INFORMATION, there is NOT ANYTHING TO BE EXPERIENCED, it is Non-information because God was BEFORE INFORMATION and CREATES INFORMATION, there was not INFORMATION WITH GOD, it is GOD who created it in the first place, and God is not made of any information so CAN NOT BE EXPERIENCED IN ANY WAY DIRECTLY, and what "you" are is what God tells you you are, and what you do is what God tells you you do, and what you think is what God tells you you think, and you "return to Allah" when you cease to experience information, thus you are nothing, non-existent, and have no experience, and that whole thing is "skipped" because "non-information" can not be experienced, and the next thing you know will be information again. So if there is an Abstract Spiritual Realm as you imagine THAT TOO IS INFORMATION MADE BY GOD, All your experiences no matter what they may be are information, and only God is not made of information and is like nothing at all, not empty space, not black or white, like nothing at all, except that God creates all information, which is what YOU are, what YOU do, those are ALL creations of Allah, every moment you experience information that information is God's creation, EVERYTHING YOU SEE AND THINK AND HEAR AND DO AND EVERYTHING THAT IS PROVEN AND MADE MANIFEST is information created by Allah only, there is no other creator, you do not create your thoughts, you do not create your deeds, you do not create ANYTHING WHATSOEVER NOR CAN YOU DO ANYTHING EXCEPT AS ALLAH WILLS YOU TO DO, so it will be made manifest and proven as to WHAT YOU ARE, and some are CREATED FOR HELL others CREATED FOR PARADISE according to the Qur'an, and you have NO CHOICE ABOUT THAT, it is with will of ALLAH alone.
Thank you!
-
But it seems like you like the passivity of your faith and could it be that it shows in your personal representation. It is not a help to your salvation to think you cannot affect your fate, because you can. It is called willpower and the right path is to aim for anti-materialism and work on your spiritual self.
Indeed it does. You have surrendered to passivity, have you not? Because you do not have to care about anything for God controls you, does God not? If you make fun of me then God did it and not you? Talk about disrespect towards your foundation.
Salaam
I'm pretty sure you're the one who said God passively supports whatever you decide in the simulation, and I am the one who said in response to that, that God's power is active.
Surrender is willingly or unwillingly always the case, we are only either given the realization or not given the realization. See if you can earn your way to paradise. You will not be able to accomplish it, save if Allah wills. Do you ignore all those verses I show you?
-
Please check out these verses from the Bible as well if you can
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607120.msg361407#msg361407 -
will ALWAYS judge in fairness and equality. Justice will be served, I have no fear about that.
Justice will be served? Allah will be served, and Allah makes up whatever is justice, and can change it. Fairness and equality are also the creations of Allah, Allah does not serve them, they serve Allah, and Allah can change them entirely.
These are called "partners" (which is what shirk means). The "gods" of the past had these same names, "Justice" "Fairness" "Honor" "Love" "Equality", and people would comfort themselves by saying that God is bound to each, partnered with each, that God is bound to do justice "ALWAYS" as you said, and whatever else. Thus they would feel safe with their lie they imagined, and they would not have felt that way or experienced that comfort, except that Allah willed it to be so. The fear of Allah is an extremely important part of the Surrender.
Allah is not fettered to justice, nor fairness, nor honor, nor love, nor equality, nor balance, nor time, nor any of his various creations which are all just information Allah creates and animates, just like you and makes you believe what you do.
If you find that you are not afraid of Allah, then you are not experiencing what the Qur'an says a Muslim should be experiencing (I am not saying you are not a Muslim).
So I try to show you and give my speeches so that you might refine your religion, even as I refine mine.
-
Freedom,
No I do not ignore them. But either you just quote them out of context or they are poorly translated.
God supports or not, God has given respite to the beast, so people are let to live their lives. If God knows the outcome and decides whether we "believe" or not then the test is quite redundant, do you not think?
The test is where we put our preferences and whether we choose to be worldly or spiritual.
Have you ever tried to apply logic to your reasoning?
Salaam
-
You say God decides you stand up. Okay.
Do you say that God makes you laugh sarcastically at me or that you lie or lose your peace too?
I find that you are disrespectful to God and you are a bit confused about the matter of God.
Salaam
-
You say God decides you stand up. Okay.
Do you say that God makes you laugh sarcastically at me or that you lie or lose your peace too?
I find that you are disrespectful to God and you are a bit confused about the matter of God.
Salaam
I never said I laughed sarcastically at you, I said I find your name amusing and I liked it. I don't think I really literally laughed either, I've been silent this whole time, but the laughter, if it ever occurred, or the joy, was inside, not out of hubris.
To me, you're nothing but what Allah makes you to be, it isn't your fault, it is the responsibility of Allah alone. You're as pathetic as me, even if you don't realize it, all information is equal in its humbleness before God, none can defy God, the sun is no more powerful before God than any of us, so it is our brother, and has no authority over us, only God has authority over everything we do.
Correct the wrong things I say.
If I made some speech where I said I'm laughing at you, I didn't really laugh at you literally as far as I know, but I find your name to be funny and amusing. Man of Faith vs FreedomStands, and that I'm the one who is totally opposed to the idea of Freedom for myself, and I am the one who lacks all faith but might seem so blind in what I'm saying. These are the jokes of Allah, Allah makes us all a joke if Allah wills.
-
Freedom,
No I do not ignore them. But either you just quote them out of context or they are poorly translated.
God supports or not, God has given respite to the beast, so people are let to live their lives. If God knows the outcome and decides whether we "believe" or not then the test is quite redundant, do you not think?
The test is where we put our preferences and whether we choose to be worldly or spiritual.
Have you ever tried to apply logic to your reasoning?
Salaam
There is no "test" as if Allah doesn't decide or doesn't know. There is only "proving" and "making manifest", to "prove a thing", "make it apparent", that means "creating" Allah only "makes" it revealed or manifest or exist, Allah is not ignorant or "seeing how it plays out" as if besides Allah there is "luck" or "chance" or "random results" or Allah is rolling dice and doesn't control all outcomes.
Whose religion is better? Mine or yours? If you think yours is better, then can you explain why you think that? Why do you think it is better that you think I'm blaspheming perhaps by saying Allah is the King of all Evil and controls all harm and benefit to you, and you seem to be saying that Allah "leaves it to chance" to "see if they do this or that" and doesn't control it, as if "chance" is a factor, a partner to Allah, and as if the people each have their own power to will anything.
Even though Allah will decide between us, don't you think my way and what I say is far better than yours? If not, please explain why not.
-
I just said I think you were discourteous towards God, but that it between you and God. That because you give God the blame for your or others wrongdoing.
I do not call it religion but more of a spiritual awakening and growth. Whether it is better or not is for you yourself to decide or God to be mad at you if there is something that is plainly wrong and disrespectful. I can only pity you for not seeing things clearly, but I also do not see much to be wrong about. It is more about not getting the preferences right. And it is usually the conjecture that people dispute over and I reject the grand majority of them. When you have a religion then you adhere to a sect.
I do not understand what you mean by leaving it to chance. It is an illusion and the real existence is an abstract and spiritual reality beyond the nature of the flesh. It is we who prove ourselves and every bad thing we do brings us away from God while the good things bring us closer to God. It is a kind of karma system. But it is not God who is responsible for the idiocy that humans do. That is from ourselves. And should we actively choose to do right, then it was our choice. And God loves that which is good, so it brings assimilation and affinity with God as well. But this is a testing, our souls/consciousness is being measured and the losers are the spiritually shallow and the winners are those who are spiritually ascended.
But no one throws us in any Hell but we fix this ourselves. In fact Hell is rather not being let in, inside the spiritual realm of God. And the ones who failed are primarily those who were absorbed in the flesh.
And in fact there is a belief/disbelief delusion, since neither iman/amen nor kafar stands for the two. Belief will not avail a man the slightest without spiritual symbiosis and affinity. In fact it is little about belief at all since the phenomenon of God is simply very complicated to comprehend and the essence is about how much of affinity one was with those who do good in assimilation with God.
Have faith