Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Peace theNabster,
It will be nice if we kept civil in our exchanges...
Thanks for the reminder. May the god give me patience.
Now Ayman you have hit on something good with the solstice idea combined with the moon cycles.
All good comes from the god. Many people contributed to this understanding and hit on good things. Even those who are against this understanding have inadvertently helped to solidify it and further discredit the traditional timing. The solstice idea is based on 1712.
Layth however argues that the month of Ramadan starts at the beginning of the winter Solstice, and he gave an interesting argument too.
I had posted a quick summary of the various theories some 70 pages ago
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg177608#msg177608
In there, I explain why I don't agree with Layth's timing. However, I am open to agree if he can bring more evidence that shows that his timing is more in line with the great reading.
You base your argument on breaking down the word Ramadan and rooting out the meaning scorching heat.
Well I have another more obvious meaning (as I come from an area where the arabic was very close to that of the arabs in the time of the prophet in North Africa, where the children of Hassan fled persecution from their "brethren" in Syria and the Jazeerah)-
Ramadan = Ashen (from Ramad = Ash)
like ashes - dull silver, a colour seen of the moon in winter.
So here we go one could combine this with Layth angle and put Ramadan at the end of December, from the winter solstice beginning.Although they sound similar in English, the Arabic word "ramad" for ash is actually not the same as "ramaDh" for scorching. The first is spelled with a Dal and the second is spelled with a Dhad. They are two different roots and meanings.
Of course if I were to be cynical I would prefer this, as Ramadan in winter will be easier to fast ), but joke aside, we need more evidence than just names.
Exactly. Names are meaningless and anyone can arbitrarily call anything a certain name. The correct understanding is not arbitrary but connects everything such as "hajj", fasting, hunting restriction, etc. and automatically makes them fall into place. So far, only the "scorching full-moon" understanding does that.
But I am certain, something will turn up, Allah will get the truth out, but we must keep an open mind, and expect it, and this means stop acting like what we say is written in stone.
I agree. All we can do is follow the best understanding based 100% on the great reading. Right now the "scorching full-moon" understanding is the best available and it is based 100% on the great reading. If a better understanding that is also based 100% on the great reading arises in the future then I am all for it. But the best understanding will never come out from trying to justify the 100% arbitrary traditional calendar and fantacizing to be following the messenger while ignoring the message and following arbitrary manmade traditions.
Peace,
Ayman
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Bro Ayman, Salam,
and thank you for the distinction between ramad and ramadh.
my "arabic" has become very rusty as i rarely use it for apart from reading the Quran,
my two main other languages being french and english.
It is sad because as I said I was brought up among people who spoke pristine sahraoui
arabic (also known as sharif arabic in north africa).
Indeed I followed the development of your ideas since I joined free-minds since 2003.
In fact joining free-mind was as a result of a prayer to The God from me.
I have been very lucky though because I never felt an urge to study or get near the hadith.
To summarise, I think in my opinion you are very close to the correct answer regarding the positioning of Ramadan,
and the way the months fall into place when The Prophet realigned them onto a luni-solar calendar which
they were not following, however, since they (the Arab conspirators) pushed the birth of The Prophet a few decades
forward (2 or more), they argued the opposite and said that The Prophet actually re-instated a pure lunar calendar.
I do believe that the lunar calendar was instated after the death of the prophet as an act of reversal into idolatry (Moon God
connection), akin to the other pagan customs such as the Cube and black stone and pagan rituals in Makkah...
Makkah existed, but it certainly was not the Makkah of today, it was Petra (Petra is a roman name, it is a nabatean/arabic town, so what was its arabic name?), and it is referred to in the Quran.
Jerusalem contains the Ka'aba.
It all fits as part of the conspiracy, so for those who are worried about Lunar Ramadan being destroyed, we have no foundation to start with, apart from the Quran that is, so what are you on about?
May The God make us Peace Makers and Reasonable in our endeavours and not shirk from the Truth even if we think it is painful. -
Ps In fact you have given yourself too much credit in believing that you can replace the Prophet.
Salaam farida )
In fact, Ayman is repeating the hadith of the prophet, which is They (the crescents) are but signs to mark fixed periods of time for (the affairs of) people, and for hajj. (source 2189). You are the one who refuses to acknowledge this very "sahih" hadith or discuss it. ;D
Refusing to discuss it because it's about hajj is no excuse, since the discussion is about a shahr of the "Islamic" calender, and the two issues are very much linked.
BTW, why didn't the quraan tell us the name of the month for hajj? And why, in this verse (2189) there's no mention of "Ramadan" if it has to do with "crescents"? -
Bro Ayman, Salam,
and thank you for the distinction between ramad and ramadh.
my "arabic" has become very rusty as i rarely use it for apart from reading the Quran,
my two main other languages being french and english.
It is sad because as I said I was brought up among people who spoke pristine sahraoui
arabic (also known as sharif arabic in north africa).
Indeed I followed the development of your ideas since I joined free-minds since 2003.
In fact joining free-mind was as a result of a prayer to The God from me.
I have been very lucky though because I never felt an urge to study or get near the hadith.
To summarise, I think in my opinion you are very close to the correct answer regarding the positioning of Ramadan,
and the way the months fall into place when The Prophet realigned them onto a luni-solar calendar which
they were not following, however, since they (the Arab conspirators) pushed the birth of The Prophet a few decades
forward (2 or more), they argued the opposite and said that The Prophet actually re-instated a pure lunar calendar.Peace theNabster,
It's always good to see the original members of the free-minds coming to rescue Ayman. However we on this thread are not interested in your Arabic background, your upbringing, your prayers or your luck. We expect evidence that;
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The Prophet realigned ?them? onto a luni-solar calendar
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(the Arab conspirators) pushed the birth of The Prophet a few decades forward (2 or more),
Any study or article to backup would do, even like the one quickduck produced on behalf of Ayman in his Reply #1246 on August 28, 2009, 075503 PM ?page 84 )(reminded me of Bush coming up with his explanation for the? I wrack? war) I would love to make mincemeat out of likes of Ben Abrahamson and Joseph Katz voodoo
I do believe that the lunar calendar was instated after the death of the prophet as an act of reversal into idolatry (Moon God
connection), akin to the other pagan customs such as the Cube and black stone and pagan rituals in Makkah...
Makkah existed, but it certainly was not the Makkah of today, it was Petra (Petra is a roman name, it is a nabatean/arabic town, so what was its arabic name?), and it is referred to in the Quran.I do believe = just your opinion
Jerusalem contains the Ka'aba
It all fits as part of the conspiracy, so for those who are worried about Lunar Ramadan being destroyed, we have no foundation to start with, apart from the Quran that is, so what are you on aboutI have come across few studies which points to the political and financial interests involved in the conspiracy to shift Ka'aba away from Jerusalem and I earnestly pray for that day when I can go to Jerusalem for my Hajj without any hindrance. pr
May The God make us Peace Makers and Reasonable in our endeavours and not shirk from the Truth even if we think it is painful.?
handshake
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Salaam farida
In fact, Ayman is repeating the hadith of the prophet, which is They (the crescents) are but signs to mark fixed periods of time for (the affairs of) people, and for hajj. (source 2189). You are the one who refuses to acknowledge this very "sahih" hadith or discuss it. ;D
Refusing to discuss it because it's about hajj is no excuse, since BTW, why didn't the quraan tell us the name of the month for hajj? And why, in this verse (2189) there's no mention of "Ramadan" if it has to do with "crescents"?Salaam and welcome back &
Thank you for your input Samia, I am sure Ayman would appreciate it.
peace
Psthe discussion is about a shahr of the "Islamic" calender, and the two issues are very much linked.
Please read my Reply #1297 on August 31, 2009, 023111 PM ?page 87 and let me know what you hmm
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Peace Ayman,
First I thank you for providing the tip on pasting image on this post. Thanks!
Quote from Ayman, Reply #1 on November 20, 2004, 035618 PM ?Interestingly, the full-moon around the summer solstice is special because it follows a lower path across the sky compared to the rest of the year's full moons and for some reason our brains are wired to perceive such full-moons as larger than normal.?
Let?s analyze the contradictions in this one simple sentence of Ayman.
The full moon around summer solstice is not special. The moon?s orbit is fixed by the God. It follows the same path since its creation. This is a verifiable scientific fact. Ayman is contradicting this fact by suggesting that the moon has two paths one for summer solstice and a second one for rest of the year. This is a misleading statement. Even worst, he is contradicting the Quranic verse 555 - The sun and the moon are perfectly calculated.
Ayman, our brains are not wired to perceive solstice full-moons as larger than normal. Our brain does not play any trick on us. It depicts what the eyes see. Many don?t understand what is going on. I will explain the situation to you. Even though it is you job to explain the situation to us since you are the author.
The combined effects of orbital eccentricity and the Sun's tides result in a substantial difference in the apparent size and brightness of the Moon at perigee and apogee. Extreme values for perigee and apogee distance occur when perigee or apogee passage occurs close to new or full Moon, and long-term extremes are in the months near to Earth's perihelion passage (closest approach to the Sun, when the Sun's tidal effects are strongest) in the first few days of January. Here is a link to a picture to demonstrate bigger and brighter moon in the winter season (NH). I am referring to the second picture only and nothing else.
http//science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2009/08jan_bigmoon2009.htm
At apogee, the moon is approximately 406,500 km away from earth with an apparent diameter of about 29.5' whereas, at perigee, it is approximately 356,500 km away and is characterized with an apparent diameter of about 33.6'. This difference of 50,000 km between apogee and perigee leads to the dramatic change in the apparent diameter. Also, don?t forget an airplane at 40,000 ft looks smaller than when it is at 10,000 ft or on ground. This effect applies to the moon situation as well.
I hope you noticed the snow in the picture which does not happen in the summer. The brightest of the bright moon happens around January timeframe because the Earth is closest to the sun at this time. Therefore, your theory of huge full moon at summer solstice as the clear marker is false. Please repent and start your fast now.
Quote from Ayman, Reply #1307 on Yesterday at 035016 AM ? Peace Guest and others blindly following the arbitrary sectarian calendar,
As expected, you have evaded answering this question and none of the sectarians on this thread could help you
Please tell everyone how your traditional arbitrary calendar uses the crescent moons as per 2189 to time the "hajj".
You will NEVER be able to answer because just like everything else in your manmade useless unintelligent system, your timing for "hajj" is 100% arbitrary and it neither starts nor ends with the crescent.?
Ayman, it is your job to defend your theory. You shouldn?t be asking us any questions rather telling us how 2189 justifies your theory. This is bad logic.
Clearly the verse 2189 says that the moon is the timing device and NOT THE SUN. Thus, we have lunar timing for Hajj and counting years.
I don't agree with your translation but will use it to disprove your theory.
Commonsense would dictate that start of the moon (new moon crescent) trigger the Hajj event and ends in crescent moon. Begin Hajj with beginning moon. Can it get any simpler than that? You are beating around the bush when you go from full moon (not a crescent moon) to another stage of the moon. Full moon is not considered crescent moon thus you are violating your own definition. Your concept is equivalent to entering a house from back door because the full moon is going back to its new moon stage again. Please stop disobeying the God?s commandments.
Here is a tip for you the moon is a closed loop system and the sun is a closed loop system. It is impossible to bring them together which you are attempting to do, foolishly. It is not like an electronic circuit in which you can couple energy from one loop to create another loop that is in synch with the other. You don?t have that flexibility here. An analogy that fit well is you have one foot on moon another feet on sun and forcing them to synch. And this is unwise and dangerous.
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I don't understand a logical absurdity in this thread. That is if Aymans theory is false, the traditional theory becomes true.
The question remains, why is Ramadan the ninth month of the count and when does your count begin? When is the beginning of the year?
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I don't understand a logical absurdity in this thread. That is if Aymans theory is false, the traditional theory becomes true.
Peace Rami
I thought you were the prodigy yet I see you falling into the traditional theory trap. nope
The question remains, why is Ramadan the ninth month of the count and when does your count begin? Where is the beginning of the year?
Please read my Reply #1297 on August 31, 2009, 023111 PM ?page 87 and let me know what you hmm
peace
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Peace Ayman,
Peace Vivek,
Basically, witnessing "shahr ramadhan" means witnessing the scorching full-moon. Per 2184-185, when we witness the scorching full moon we abstain the abstinence for the complete count (10 days) of a few days (3-10 days).
Why is it 10 days? Why not exactly one day?
Is it because the full-moon appears so for about 10 days to our sight?
Isn't full-moon only for a single day scientifically?
Why is it 3-10 days but not from the 1st day of the full-moon?
The scorching full-moon is the full-moon after the summer solstice. The interval between solstices is how years are determined as per 1712. The lunar cycle is kept in sync with the solar cycle by counting exactly 12 full-moons in the solar year (as per 936). Thus, we would skip the occasional 13th full-moon and this would automatically and effortlessly align the lunar cycle with the solar cycle. It is the perfect system.
I hope this very short summary helps.
Peace,
Ayman
Not only traditional Islam but also major religions(Hinduism, Judaism, Taoism,etc) followed lunar calendar. The solar calendar system is purely a christian concept which all of humanity follow now. Though the Quran mentions both the sun and moon as pointers to the time, considering that all other religions followed lunar calendar, why can't we conclude that Islam too in the time of Muhammad used purely a lunar calendar having nothing to do with solar cycles? I ask this question because I believe all such religions as the revealed ones like Islam and value them all at par.
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
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2185 Shahr ramadan, in which the Qur?an was revealed; as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Therefore, whoever of you witnesses the month...
Shiin-ha-Ra = make it notable/known/manifest/public/infamous (in a bad or good sense), hire/contract for a month, stay a month, month old, month, new moon, moon, full moon, any evil thing that exposes its author to disgrace, a vice/fault or the like, big & bulky, reputable/eminent.
Source http//www.studyquran.co.uk/19_SH.htm
Ra-Miim-Dad = to be burning, heat, be blasted by the sun. ramaDda - to sharpen (a spear) between stones, roast, pasture on a burning ground, burn. ramDda - scorching heat, burning hot (ground). ramadzan - the ninth month of Islamic calendar, the month of fast.
Source http//www.studyquran.co.uk/17_RA.htm
I don't get why some people so DESPERATELY want to believe in the "Islamic calendar". It's the dumbest calendar ever because it serves absolutely no practical purpose. The seasons occur in different months of the "Islamic calendar" over just a few years. Also, it's next to impossible to know the precise date when a month of the "Islamic calendar" starts. Wouldn't an infinitely wise god would give us better ways of determining times of year? Understanding shahr ramadan as the Flower Moon is much, much more sensible because the Flower Moon is obvious, it's occurrence is independent of the decisions that were taken by previous generations and there's no evidence that the "Islamic calendar" was instituted by the god. Only those who secretly think the god is stupid can believe that the god instituted the "Islamic calendar" and therefore those who believe It did will probably go to Hell.
And those idiots celebrate Prophet Birth day in different seasons too.http//img525.imageshack.us/img525/1562/arrowed.gif
Prophet Muhammad was born Arabia in the city of Mecca on the 12th day of Rabi-ul-Awwal, which was Monday the 20th day of April, 571 A.C. This falls on Saturday May 25, 2002 and fell on June 4th last year (2001). This is also his death anniversary.
http//www.amaana.org/prophet/milad.htm
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What does hajj have to do with us fasting ramadan? Nothin. fftopic What does this and that have to do with anything? This stupid thread been goin on too long. I think its enuff info and differnt views for each to come to their own conclutions and for this thread to be locked or something. Why is it still going on? Back and forth? And my posts alone should be enuff, I think. With verses and correct understanding of them. And either one of the two groups is guided or astray. And it was inspired to me that I am on a straight path. Me and those who follow.
All an all, Ayman is really smart in this area and he has more knowleadge than me and most when it comes to gazing at the stars and all that stuff. But I only follow what quran says and the sun has nothin to do with determining when ramadan is. I also think it is important to know what ayman knows, just like it is important to know what R.K. knew. But I will not reject because of them.
In Allah I place my trust.
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Salam farida,
I am not trying to convince anyone, just putting forward what i believe is true from my synthesis of what i read so far in the Quran, and the different articles i came across.
Since it was not my intention to write an essay on this proving or disproving using certain intellectual and/or factual tools, let us say that you either take these as initial hypotheses to prove or disprove, or leave it at that and stay content with the tafseers and works of the likes of Tabari, Shafie, Bukhari you seem content to carry on following.
The Quran is factual data enough for me, and from it you can glean a lot of chronological, archeological, historical, sociological information that more often than not contradict what the sectarians have "cooked" together.
Other sources there are, and we need more work, but there is a lack of resources and will as overall, the sectarians do believe that they have the truth engraved in stone, so they do not feel the need to do any forensic and so on research on the matter, in fact if anything, there was a talk several times in Medinah that they should destroy graves and relics of Sahabah because of the dangers of idolatry (this of course will destroy valuable evidence).
I for one would love to be able to get some fragments of belongings of the prophet dating round about his death and using the latest technology to carbon date, that will shed the light on the time line.
Now the question to ask, is his body even in Medinah as we are led to believe, there was a story that during the Ottoman empire there was an attempt at stealing his body which was foiled by the guardians of his tomb...
So long as Al Saud's culture of secrecy is economical with the truth and uses superstition and intimidation to cover and discourage research in the rational history of our past, we will carry on being ignorant and the weakest mentally among us (the huge majority) will either reject the deen or turn to the "scholar" to fill the void).
No offense, but i usually do not like to engage with abrasive people like you, as you are too agressive in your exchanges for my taste, and i do have a choice with whom i choose to interact in a forum, so kindly count yourself lucky that i replied this time...
May Allah increase us in knowledge, patience, compassion, and provides us with the means to better ourselves -
I agree that the start of ramadan depends on the sighting of the moon. 2185 and 2189 is enuff to prove that this is correct. Ramadan depends on the sighting of the moon and not a myriad of other factors other than thin sighting. Even if shar means "moon", there is still no mention of the sun ( or solar) in 2185. I agree that 2185 contains the complete info that we need to know when to start the abstinace, and the sun or solar system has nothin to do with it to my knowleadge. Especially when you translate "shara" as full moon. And 105, 1712, 971, the other similar verses you try to throw up, all that he say she say and these differnt storys has nothing to do with us fasting according to 2185. 2185,2189, and 105 leave no doubt that the year is lunar. New moons or cresent moons, 2189 still mentions the moon as timing device, and not the sun as a timing device. And in 7142 and 892 is mention of nights and not days. And you caint say that " Ma3dootat" is a fixed 10 days ( without explicit knowleadge) and 2184 does not say for "10 days." I agree that " ma3doodat" as " a few" can be any number from 3-10, but you caint say it is 10 days for certain ( without knowleadge). Espeacially when The God didnt say so or say "fast 10 days." And 936 also justifies a lunar year because the moon is mentioned and not the sun.
105 clearly says God measured the phases of the moon so that you might know the number of years and the calculation; while the sun is only mentioned as a shinning brightness and the moon was made to reflect it. Ramadan is to be observed by those who witness it. Also I think even seeing a 1-2 day old cresent is still good enuff to call ramadan if one is certain that the cresent is 1-2 days old. And shahr can mean month or moon, which is bout the same to me. Each full/new moon is considered a new month. 2185 is evidence that there is a month named ramadan. The year is lunar - to my understanding. And you are following all the similar verses seeking to cause confusion and frustrate 2184-185 and 189. From 105, it can be seen that the learning of the number of years and calculation are helped by the moon to my understanding. And to say the complete count is 10 fixed days in 2185 is a lie against Allah - the Lord. We calculate from new moon to the next. There are 12 full moons ( or months) with God a year. I agree God tells us to count 12 months ( or moons) in a year, and four are restricted. And the weeks have always been 7 day weeks every since the Genisis, so all that 10,20 day weeks used by some is irrelevant or might I say wrong,wrong,wrong and off topic.As of right now your false understanding is creating a contradiction. 2185 can be translated as " designated days, certain days, specific days,ect..." And to say a "few" days in 2184 can be misleading. You are creating another problem by implying that the god is giving supeflous usless information in 2185. All we can say is that a Ramadan may last for 29 or 30 days ( as usual) and the count is to be started when the moon is first visible until the next month.
Bring the clear meaning for " Ma3doodat.? O you who believe, you are ordered to fast as those before you, it could be that you are fearful and obedient. A designated term; so whoever from among you is ill or traveling; then complete the number at other times; and as for those who cannot do without, then they may redeem by feeding any of the poorest of the poor, and whoever gives alms voluntarily, then it is best for him, and it is best that you fast, if you are able. The Quran was sent down in the month of Rahmadan, to guide the people and to clarify the guidance and the Difference between Right and Wronge. So one should fast the month, whoever of you witnesses it. And whoever from among you is ill or traveling; then complete the number on other days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the term, and glorify God for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful.
giveup peace
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Salaam and welcome back &
Thank you for your input Samia, I am sure Ayman would appreciate it. D
peace
PsPlease read my Reply #1297 on August 31, 2009, 023111 PM ?page 87 and let me know what you hmmThank you for the welcome, farida.
In fact I was following the thread closely, but could not have the time to participate; also did not find something new except acusing Ayman of repeating himself while the same questions are posed to him.
Until I red your post which you just told me of, and I mean this onePeace Supernaut,
You are talking of the calendar adopted by 'Umar ibn al-Khattab as he in his wisdom felt it necessary to have a calendar so as to fix the dates.
For the Quranic approach understand reference A & B below
A-936. The count of the months with God is twelve months in God's record......
Now if you seriously want to seek the truth then go back to Rex?s post on page 80? Reply #1185 on August 25, 2009, 055646 AM ?
In response to point 4 quickduck Now pay attention to a very important question raised by Rex Why forbidden to kill an animal on June 22 in one year and OK to kill same animal until July 20 in a different year?He again raised that question to Ayman here page 81 ? Reply #1202 on August 26, 2009, 042940 AM
Again, why forbidden on June 22 one year and OK to kill the animal until July 20 in a different year?Both ignored this very valid Question which is the core as described in 937.
B- 937 Know that the use of the additional month causes an increase in rejection, for it is used by those who have rejected that they may misguide with it by making it lawful one year and forbidding it one year so as to circumvent the count that God has made restricted; , thus they make lawful what God made forbidden! Their evil works have been adorned for them, and God does not guide the rejecting people
What you?re talking of now is your view/opinion and I as a lawyer should ignore it but I have time, as long as you don?t repeat your questions, or else be ready to pay my fee >D .
I can see that you use http//www.studyquran.co.uk so it may add to everyone?s knowledge if you study the two terms for years used in the Qur?an and share this knowledge with us. I give you a few examples below
The year 3am( ا is used for carrying out our obligations to God, and the term Seeneen ( ) is also year especially in connection with land,
526 Land be out of reach 40 yrs
1247,48, year of draught and harvesting ,
105 The sun and the moon are both used when referring to Sineen
1712 where for daily seeking bounty from land sineen is used
926 wish to live life thousand seeneen,So clearly there are two types of years in the Quran.
The calendar you or Meteora are referring to is the official calendar, adopted by 'Umar ibn al-Khattab to fix the dates. This did NOT disturb the month of fasting.(just as the ?sunni? in my blue lagoon scenario see?s Ramadan as the 12th month, of his migration yet he fast on same occasion as the rest whose calendar see this month as the 9th)
Good of you to select ?the Flower moon ?from the Wikipedia collection since what, in English, is called the full moon is actually half of the moon cycle.
We do not fast according to your ?stupid" Islamic calendar, we fast according to the cycle started by the prophet per the event when the Qur?an was revealed to him, and he surly knew more than your dictionaries if it was during burning, heat/ blasted by the sun. yes
As ?guest? pointed out on page 80 ? Reply #1192 on August 25, 2009, 070849 PM ? The Quran says Prophet Muhammad was given wisdom. Nowhere in the Quran have we found that Ayman was given wisdom. On the contrary the Quran warns us about people like you who twist God?s words hmm
So Alhumdullilah, despite all failed attempts to knock unconscious true Muslims in order to make re-arrangements, the cycle established by the prophet Mohammad (pbuh) is rock solid and is going on till this day without any discontinued intercalation or frozen commutation. hail
peace
Ps An example of Shiin-ha-Ra = make it notable/known/manifest/public/infamous The announcement (Cards) proud parents convey about the birth of their infant... sunWhat drew my attention was your differenciation between the meaning of "sana/ " and "3aam/ ". I really like your rendition and was surprised that you did not notice that God does not care what "our year" is or how long it's, but for Him it's from harvest to harvest (sanaa)or draught to draught (3aam), yet you cannot comprehend how, in the same manner, He does not care about our "month" and how long it ias. God speaks to use using His creation not our inventions, and that's why the quraan is full of advice for us to contemplate the creation.
As for the story of Khalifa Omar, the narrators say that the setting of a calendar was initiated by the walis and governors when money poured from foreign governates, and they had to know when exactly it arrived and to which "ramadan" it belonged so as not to mix the revenues of different years. I found this very interesting. They did not have a problem with when to fast (when ramadaan was), nor when to go to hajj; yet they wanted to know which "ramadaan/harvest time". This revenue, of course, was mainly the income of harvest. The decision of starting with the year of immigration was not even Omar's. So the year had nothing to do with fasting people did not need it for their fasting, otherwise, the prophet would have set it, and not address people that "their deen was complete".
Most probably, the corruption took place later when the islamic empire was full of hypocrates and traitors, the same time of hadith invention.
Moreover, even hadith and tales could not prove that a month called "Ramadan" existed. Those who dicuss this say the equivalent was called "Zahir/ ". I wonder why God brings about a name of a month the people are not aware of, and no question was asked!
Thanks again for this post -
I agree that the start of ramadan depends on the sighting of the moon. 2185 and 2189 is enuff to prove that this is correct. Ramadan depends on the sighting of the moon and not a myriad of other factors other than thin sighting. Even if shar means "moon", there is still no mention of the sun ( or solar) in 2185. I agree that 2185 contains the complete info that we need to know when to start the abstinace, and the sun or solar system has nothin to do with it to my knowleadge. Especially when you translate "shara" as full moon. And 105, 1712, 971, the other similar verses you try to throw up, all that he say she say and these differnt storys has nothing to do with us fasting according to 2185. 2185,2189, and 105 leave no doubt that the year is lunar. New moons or cresent moons, 2189 still mentions the moon as timing device, and not the sun as a timing device. And in 7142 and 892 is mention of nights and not days. And you caint say that " Ma3dootat" is a fixed 10 days ( without explicit knowleadge) and 2184 does not say for "10 days." I agree that " ma3doodat" as " a few" can be any number from 3-10, but you caint say it is 10 days for certain ( without knowleadge). Espeacially when The God didnt say so or say "fast 10 days." And 936 also justifies a lunar year because the moon is mentioned and not the sun.
Ma3doodat105 clearly says God measured the phases of the moon so that you might know the number of years and the calculation; while the sun is only mentioned as a shinning brightness and the moon was made to reflect it. Ramadan is to be observed by those who witness it. Also I think even seeing a 1-2 day old cresent is still good enuff to call ramadan if one is certain that the cresent is 1-2 days old. And shahr can mean month or moon, which is bout the same to me. Each full/new moon is considered a new month. 2185 is evidence that there is a month named ramadan. The year is lunar - to my understanding. And you are following all the similar verses seeking to cause confusion and frustrate 2184-185 and 189. From 105, it can be seen that the learning of the number of years and calculation are helped by the moon to my understanding. And to say the complete count is 10 fixed days in 2185 is a lie against Allah - the Lord. We calculate from new moon to the next. There are 12 full moons ( or months) with God a year. I agree God tells us to count 12 months ( or moons) in a year, and four are restricted. And the weeks have always been 7 day weeks every since the Genisis, so all that 10,20 day weeks used by some is irrelevant or might I say wrong,wrong,wrong and off topic.As of right now your false understanding is creating a contradiction. 2185 can be translated as " designated days, certain days, specific days,ect..." And to say a "few" days in 2184 can be misleading. You are creating another problem by implying that the god is giving supeflous usless information in 2185. All we can say is that a Ramadan may last for 29 or 30 days ( as usual) and the count is to be started when the moon is first visible until the next month.
Bring the clear meaning for " Ma3doodat.? O you who believe, you are ordered to fast as those before you, it could be that you are fearful and obedient. A designated term; so whoever from among you is ill or traveling; then complete the number at other times; and as for those who cannot do without, then they may redeem by feeding any of the poorest of the poor, and whoever gives alms voluntarily, then it is best for him, and it is best that you fast, if you are able. The Quran was sent down in the month of Rahmadan, to guide the people and to clarify the guidance and the Difference between Right and Wronge. So one should fast the month, whoever of you witnesses it. And whoever from among you is ill or traveling; then complete the number on other days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the term, and glorify God for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful.
giveup peace
Ma3doodat--3-- cant you read 3 in Ma3doodat
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Thank you for the welcome, farida.
In fact I was following the thread closely, but could not have the time to participate; also did not find something new except acusing Ayman of repeating himself while the same questions are posed to him.
Until I red your post which you just told me of, and I mean this oneWhat drew my attention was your differenciation between the meaning of "sana/ " and "3aam/ ". I really like your rendition and was surprised that you did not notice that God does not care what "our year" is or how long it's, but for Him it's from harvest to harvest (sanaa)or draught to draught (3aam), yet you cannot comprehend how, in the same manner, He does not care about our "month" and how long it ias. God speaks to use using His creation not our inventions, and that's why the quraan is full of advice for us to contemplate the creation.
As for the story of Khalifa Omar, the narrators say that the setting of a calendar was initiated by the walis and governors when money poured from foreign governates, and they had to know when exactly it arrived and to which "ramadan" it belonged so as not to mix the revenues of different years. I found this very interesting. They did not have a problem with when to fast (when ramadaan was), nor when to go to hajj; yet they wanted to know which "ramadaan/harvest time". This revenue, of course, was mainly the income of harvest. The decision of starting with the year of immigration was not even Omar's. So the year had nothing to do with fasting people did not need it for their fasting, otherwise, the prophet would have set it, and not address people that "their deen was complete".
Most probably, the corruption took place later when the islamic empire was full of hypocrates and traitors, the same time of hadith invention.
Moreover, even hadith and tales could not prove that a month called "Ramadan" existed. Those who dicuss this say the equivalent was called "Zahir/ ". I wonder why God brings about a name of a month the people are not aware of, and no question was asked!
Thanks again for this postI?m expecting a storm with thunder bolt &
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Of course you find in "Islamic" literature the story and its opposite. So here is another story about the Islamic calender
It's said that the Islamic calender was set much earlier, from the first year the prophet immigrated, and so it was logical that he started it with "rabee3 -ul-awal first grazing", but Omar changed it to make it start with "mu7arram the restricted month".
In my opinion
Both stories are baseless, and they are just there to give credit to the whole fiasco of a lunar "Islamic" year. Otherwise, if the firs khalif could change the beginning of a calender, thus moving the time of fasting, how much manipulation took place in this calender?
And should we trust it, or trust God and search in His book? -
Salam farida,
I am not trying to convince anyone, just putting forward what i believe is true from my synthesis of what i read so far in the Quran, and the different articles i came across.
Since it was not my intention to write an essay on this proving or disproving using certain intellectual and/or factual tools, let us say that you either take these as initial hypotheses to prove or disprove,Salaam theNabster
I am sorry to say we are long past intial hypothesis, and at a stage where we are not wasting anymore time on unfounded opinions.
and stay content with the tafseers and works of the likes of Tabari, Shafie, Bukhari you seem content to carry on following.
That is your choice not mine and you can carryon with that by all means
The Quran is factual data enough for me, and from it you can glean a lot of chronological, archeological, historical, sociological information that more often than not contradict what the sectarians have "cooked" together.
Absolutely correct.
Other sources there are, and we need more work, but there is a lack of resources and will as overall,
Yes we need to evaluate all other sources, including Ayman's, and there is no lack of resources, but yes there is a lack of will and the old habit of dependency on others.
the sectarians do believe that they have the truth engraved in stone, so they do not feel the need to do any forensic and so on research on the matter
They are stuck in paralysis and we can only pray for them to wake up and seek the truth.
in fact if anything, there was a talk several times in Medinah that they should destroy graves and relics of Sahabah because of the dangers of idolatry (this of course will destroy valuable evidence).
Yes I have read this too. Very convenient for the Saudis. Anyway they need the tourist flow so they need to modernise and expand; after all this is the biggest tourist event in the world.
I for one would love to be able to get some fragments of belongings of the prophet dating round about his death and using the latest technology to carbon date, that will shed the light on the time line.
This shows you desire the truth and, sincerely seeking the truth, we will find it.
Now the question to ask, is his body even in Medinah as we are led to believe, there was a story that during the Ottoman empire there was an attempt at stealing his body which was foiled by the guardians of his tomb...
So long as Al Saud's culture of secrecy is economical with the truth and uses superstition and intimidation to cover and discourage research in the rational history of our past, we will carry on being ignorant and the weakest mentally among us (the huge majority) will either reject the deen or turn to the "scholar" to fill the void).I believe that, as the Qur'an prophesied, the record will be laid open and with the modern technology available to us it will happen soon insha?Allah
No offense, but i usually do not like to engage with abrasive people like you, as you are too agressive in your exchanges for my taste, and i do have a choice with whom i choose to interact in a forum, so kindly count yourself lucky that i replied this time...
May Allah increase us in knowledge, patience, compassion, and provides us with the means to better ourselvesSince you appear to be a reasonable person following this thread you should know that I too am no friend of abusive language and, as you will see from the quotes following, I only use it in response to abuse.
I am sure you will have noticed that it was Ayman who started calling all who disagreed with him stupid idiots and ignorant, lacking knowledge etc. Such invectives, the sign of a loser, were present in almost every post of his. There is a limit to putting up with such nonsense and adding name calling to that is too much, so I feel he got no more than he rightly deserved.If you feel I was aggressive with Siki (the Roman Salute) then know that it was in response to this remark siki on August 25, 2009, 070605 AM
Yes! because the country is PLAGUED with 180 million (minus a few) sunni sectarians, siki
Does this ring a bell? His language is no different from Hitler?s hate propaganda against the Jews, and I believe no one should harbour such feelings for anyone at all.And if you felt that I was aggressive with Rami as Reply #1276 on August 30, 2009, 013833 PM then know too that it was in response to his abhorrent accusation and mocking my fasting, not even understanding the basics of my fasting system. Check it yourself ? Reply #1241 on August 28, 2009, 060853 AM page 83.
You seem to be an honest and fair minded person so please advise me; where, was I alone aggressive? Or is it the traditional value that a woman should put up with obnoxious men at the bottom of this accusation?
peace
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If you feel I was aggressive with Siki (the Roman Salute) then know that it was in response to this remark siki on August 25, 2009, 070605 AM
Yes! because the country is PLAGUED with 180 million (minus a few) sunni sectarians, siki
Does this ring a bell? His language is no different from Hitler?s hate propaganda against the Jews, and I believe no one should harbour such feelings for anyone at all.Hey but those "plagued people" think o' us as infidels and apostates...threatening us with death... brickwall