Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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You mixed the traditional Babylonian Jewish calendar with the Torah calendar. The idea of adding an intercalary months and the metonic cycle is Babylonian. The Torah based calendar calls the first crescent after the Abib in Israel the first month. So its auto-adjusting.
Peace Rami
Reply #509 on September 22, 2008 truthseeker11
Excerpt from one of the links, http//www.crivoice.org/calendar.html http//www.abu.nb.ca/ecm/topics/custom7.htm
"The Rabbis would structure elaboate rules as to what constituted an appearance of the new moon, how many witnesses to the event were necessary, what qualifications those witnesses must possess, etc."
This shows how hard it is to accurately witness a new moon. The current sectarians who follow the Jews instead of The Quran have the same problem of determining the new moon every year and it is an empiric fact that there is always a dispute among them about the appearance of the new moon
The modern Hebrew calendar, since it is based on rules rather than observations, does not exactly track the tropical year, and in fact the average Hebrew year of ~365.2468 days is intermediate between the tropical year (~365.2422 days) and the sidereal year (~365.2564 days)
peace peace -
Salaam Samia,
You have a funny logic!
Words "attributed to quraan" are not the word "quraan" which you mentioned in your post and which I am talking about. Words referring to the quraan are attributes and have their own masculine and feminine description. They do not affect the gender of the word they are describing.
The example brought by Ayman best explains this.No funny logic is the full moon.
she is not except a remembrance
"she/it is" can refer to any attribute of Qur'an; read context of 7431 and the verse posted...
72
A Book was descended to you so no strain be in your chest from it, to warn with it and a remembrance to the believers.I am afraid we are pooring water in the sand, and whatever we say or whatever we try to explain to him , i bet he (Nun, Holiday, Pseudo, Eid, Rex...) still cannot understand. It's like that, you cannot do anything...it's a hopeless case .
Mos u fshi si miza n?n bishtin e kalit. -- Albanian proverb
Do not hide like a fly under the tail of a horse.You are an ignorant pretender and cheerleader; answer the questions...
2183 Ya ayyuha allatheena amanookutiba AAalaykumu alssiyamu
O you those who believe, it is dictated on you the fasting.2184 waAAala allatheena yuteeqoonahu
?and on those who endure it -- obviously refers back to the fasting.2185 faman shahida minkumu alshshahra falyasumhu
?so who witnessed from you the month, so he should fast it?While you have it as?
?.so who witnessed from you the full moon, so he should abstain, the abstinence.So yeah a double negative, if your vision is good, you are outdoors in clear weather lucky to see the full moon then avoid the fasting.
Likewise apply what was asked in the prior post...
583-4
And those who declare their wives as forbidden for them as their mothers
so freeing a neck from before that they touch each other
And he who finds not must do the abstinence two successive full-moons before they both touch each other
And he who is unable to do so should feed sixty poorThe abstinence two successive full-moons means wait until next 98%, 99%, 100% full moon then fast to next non-identifiable 98%, 99%, 100% full moon which is about a month +/- a few days for error.
Therefore, the abstinence of one full-moon is ZERO days!
- Does he commence fasting? YES!
- Can he sleep with his wife until the next full moon? NO!
- Does feeding 60 poor equate to two months fasting? YES!
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Peace progressive,
Also, why the DOUBLE POSTING?
FYI, a full moon IS an object, or do you suggest something different?Sorry for double posting, i corrected.
no, moon is an object , full moon is an event WHEN that moon object is in FULL STATE. That's what common sense suggests.BTW, what's the problem with not understanding Arabic?
The same problem with not understanding english.
Some may think that "workout" means working outside the office laughPeace
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Salaam Samia,
No funny logic is the full moon.
she is not except a remembrance
"she/it is" can refer to any attribute of Qur'an; read context of 7431 and the verse posted...
72
A Book was descended to you so no strain be in your chest from it, to warn with it and a remembrance to the believers.Mos u fshi si miza n?n bishtin e kalit. -- Albanian proverb
Do not hide like a fly under the tail of a horse.I like proverbs..
Here's an arabic one dhil al kalb 3omro ma yen3idil
the tail of the Dog never gets straight.You are an ignorant pretender and cheerleader; answer the questions...
That's what i am doing, answering, not cheerleading ignore
salam
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no, moon is an object , full moon is an event WHEN that moon object is in FULL STATE. That's what common sense suggests.
It can be both - I just checked dictionary.com
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Salaam Samia,
No funny logic is the full moon.
she is not except a remembrance
"she/it is" can refer to any attribute of Qur'an; read context of 7431 and the verse posted...
72
A Book was descended to you so no strain be in your chest from it, to warn with it and a remembrance to the believers.Salaam Eid
Forget about using 7431 to prove any arguement because it's the verse in question.
(A Book was descended to you so no strain be in your chest from it, to warn with it and a remembrance to the believers).
If you mean that this verse is your proof, what does it prove? It does not even contain (she/it is).
In fact, it proves my point
The two red letters are masculine singular pronouns referring to (A Book). They are the two translated "its" (underlined) in the English version of the verse.
is an attribute to the book.There's no other word linked to it in the verse, and so to any one ignorant of Arabic, nothing shows it's feminine.
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It can be both - I just checked dictionary.com
Thanks God it can be both, so fasting IN THE FULL MOON does make sense, as well as quran descending in A FULL MOON. (the event , not the object)
Thank you very much
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Thanks God it can be both, so fasting IN THE FULL moon does make sense.
Thank you
That is, of course, if 'shahr' means 'full moon'. And I still dont think that it makes sense, but if you think it makes sense, then so be it.
Anyways, I am looking forward to Ayman's response to my post.
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Salam progressive
i also (like you did) used dictionnaries to find that "shahr" means full moon.handshake
Note the IF in my last post.
BTW according to PRL, the root of 'shahr' can mean 'full moon' AND 'month' (among other things).
Peace peace
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That's what i am doing, answering, not cheerleading ignore
Then answer my prior post not run away like that fly posting nonsense as this...
3- hence, "the hot-scorching-big-obvious-reddish-full moon" ie. "shahr Ramadan" is unique because it happens only once in a year, after the summer solstice. the reddish big full moon of December misses at least one important attribute "hot-scorching"...am i clear enough ?
i thought some people on this forum had problems with understanding arabic, but now i see that they had big problems with english as well ((((((((((
YOU MISSED THIS BIG ONE LAST YEAR 3 DAYS BEFORE THE SOLSTICE!
http//science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htm
On Wednesday night, June 18th, step outside at sunset and look around. You'll see a giant form rising in the east. At first glance it looks like the full Moon. It has craters and seas and the face of a man, but this "moon" is strangely inflated. It's huge!
You've just experienced the Moon Illusion.
http//science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/images/moonillusion/Kasaitis1_strip.jpgThe full moon which occurs sometimes 28 days after solstice will be a baby moon compared to the above.
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Salaam Samia,
Salaam Eid
Forget about using 7431 to prove any arguement because it's the verse in question.
(A Book was descended to you so no strain be in your chest from it, to warn with it and a remembrance to the believers).
If you mean that this verse is your proof, what does it prove? It does not even contain (she/it is).
No, put it all together, both are a remembrance...
7431... she/it is not except a remembrance to the human
Now give us your honest opinion of Ayman's assertion which lead to the above off topic...
2183 Ya ayyuha allatheena amanookutiba AAalaykumu alssiyamu
O you those who believe, it is dictated on you the fasting.2184 waAAala allatheena yuteeqoonahu
?and on those who endure it -- obviously refers back to the fasting.2185 faman shahida minkumu alshshahra falyasumhu
?so who witnessed from you the month, so he should fast it?While Ayman has it as?
?.so who witnessed from you the full moon, so he should abstain, the abstinence.So yeah a double negative, if your vision is good, you are outdoors in clear weather lucky to see the full moon then avoid the fasting.
Does the above logic look correct to you Samia?
Likewise Samia please apply logic to what was asked in numerous prior posts and tell us if this is correct...
583-4
And those who declare their wives as forbidden for them as their mothers
so freeing a neck from before that they touch each other
And he who finds not must do the abstinence two successive full-moons before they both touch each other
And he who is unable to do so should feed sixty poorThe abstinence two successive full-moons means wait until next 98%, 99%, 100% full moon then fast to next non-identifiable 98%, 99%, 100% full moon which is about a month +/- a few days for error.
Therefore, the abstinence of one full-moon is ZERO days!
- Does he commence fasting? YES!
- Can he sleep with his wife until the next full moon? NO!
- Does feeding 60 poor equate to two months fasting? YES!
Peace
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Peace Eid, all,
- Does feeding 60 poor equate to two months fasting? YES!
This is a very good point and furthermore proves that 'shahr' means 'month'. Here you go
581 God has heard the woman who argues with you regarding her husband, and she complains to God. God hears the argument between you. God is Hearer, Seer.
582 Those among you who estrange their wives by saying to them "You are as my mother." They can never be as their mothers, for their mothers are the women who gave birth to them. Indeed, they are uttering what is strange and a falsehood. God is Pardoner, Forgiver.
583 Those who had estranged their wives in this manner, then they again repeat it, they shall free a slave before they have sexual contact between them. This is to enlighten you. God is well aware of everything you do.
584 However, he who does not have the means shall fast for two consecutive months before the couple may touch one another again; and he who is unable to do it shall feed sixty poor people. That is so you would acknowledge God and His messenger. These are the limits set by God. Those who do not appreciate have incurred a painful retribution.
584 Faman lam yajid fasiyamushahrayni mutatabiAAayni min qabli an yatamassafaman lam yastatiAA fa-itAAamu sitteenamiskeenan thalika litu/minoo biAllahiwarasoolihi watilka hudoodu Allahi walilkafireenaAAathabun aleemun.
Feeding 60 needy people equates to to fasting for two 'shahrs' ('shahrayn' (months), in the above case.
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Salaam farida
As I explained, I was following the thread closely,aka reading, albeit not participating.What new opinions were there? I was not talking about new posts nor new posters. And I was definitely not put off by Ayman's posts. The pleasure is mine )Salaam Samia
Now you too are playing Ayman's game asking me to spell out for you ...naughty naughty nope
However, it seems you did not understand my post. I liked your rendition on "sana" and "3aam" as defined by natural events (harvest and flood) not name nor number of days. Same for day (sun/sunrise-sunset - darkness), again no name or number of hours.Then suddenly a month with a name and anumber of days? Only one month? Why didn't we have the name of the month of hajj.
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that we are required to fast a lunar month, which started with the first event of Ramadan (hottest time) when the Qur'an was revealed. This month drifts each year by 11 days (or 12 days in case of leap year). Approximately every 33 years it completes its cycle, returning to the position it had when the Qur?an was first revealed, and that is when we are to seek the night of power.
So seeking Leilat Al Qadr is linked to hot weather, as the Quran was revealed, on that night, in the phase of the cycle where that night falls in the month of hot weather.
Read again word for word and you will find that Ramadan is only mentioned with regard to the revelation of the Qur?an2185 ?A month, marked by heat, in which the Qur'an was revealed; as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion
Therefore, whoever of you witnesses the month, then let him fast therein.......? this section is about the month that comes once in every 12 moon cycles.(like a birthmonth) The complete count is from crescent to crescent from birth to death that is the most natural cycle and there is no other explanation what so ever.
Why didn't we have the name of the month of hajj
Because hajj is not linked to any special divine event; rather it's a yearly event just like our moon/month of fasting, which has with time become known as Ramadan.
Etymology was of course noticed by me and I think you mentioned it in more than a post.
yes
Even the etymology of month starts with the noun "moon" not crescent.The "th" serves as "relative to/ related to" as in "sixth" for example. It did not start with "crescent", so, as in Arabic, it has nothing to do with crescent nor with number of days
@ quickduck and all
We should not worry about pre-Quranic language as we follow the language mentioned in the great reading and the English term ?full moon? is not the term used in Arabic, or in any language associated with Arabic, like Urdu.(fusion of mainly Arabic, Persian and Sanscrit)In Urdu month and moon is also referred to as Ashahra.(3hahra) The cycle is mainly divided into three parts Awwal Ashahra, Thanni Ashahra and Aakhri Ashahra. The term ?full moon? has no basis in the Qu?an. Ayman too acknowledged that English, is not a language mentioned in the great reading.
Reply #858 on Page 58
Whether we like it or not we all use ?extra-Quranic sources?. You just used a computer to type this and you used English, which is not a language mentioned in the great. As I said, it comes down to knowing the limitations of the various other sources. What I also found out is that the sources that are truthful have never contradicted the great reading .However, my question is How can you prove that a month called Ramadan is what God is talking about? Where did you get it when it was never mentioned in any of the previous scriptures, nor had any other "month" been mentioned before,nor do we have any more information abou its position in the year,its number of days...?
Why would a people call a month (scorching) when it's as scorching as well as cold as any other month?I think I?ll leave it to you to ponder on this point. You never know; one day you may be able to come up with substantial evidence to prove us wrong in following the order of the months firmly established by the Prophet during his stay with us (previous generation)..
I just hope that you honestly try to give it a little thought Why are we in a mess every year because no one is able to see the "crescent"? .
nope Not Me but ?they? are in a mess every year, not because no one is able to see the "crescent", but simply because they rely on disunited corrupt Imams whose strings are pulled by different powers at the top. As for me I just follow the movement of the moon, according to the latest technology, and that is absolutely fine with me, as there is no requirement for everyone to physically witness the crescent.
Also think of the night the quraan was descended.The time we are supposed to fast was mainly chosen for this event why start fasting a couple or triple of weeks earlier,and then just guess, if we even think about it, which night is that one better than a thousand moons? Traditioalists do not know it nor care about it tenth as much as they care about the "month of Ramadan"
Shiin-ha-Ra = make it notable/known/manifest/public/infamous has always been associated with something like the birth of a child, or death or the beginning of married life, so the middle moon, 1/2 moon cannot mean Shahra.
Once the new moon is witnessed we have arrived in that month/moon/shahr. Those who believe in literally witnessing the moon can do so if they wish and those who are unable to see are present in that month which is equal to witnessing as per verses 4120, 21, 22, it is confirmed that the skin is capable of witnessing and will testify(DNA prints verify that)
And most of all, why would God link the hajj with crescents and not fasting, yet traditionalists, and unfortunately you, link fasting to crescents and not hajj?
pr Bless you Samia for solving the riddle question in an appropriate manner and now I understand what Dr Ayman meant in his bold scripts crescent moons as per 2189 to time the "hajj".
Reply #1307 & Reply #1310 on September 01, 2009, 072910 AM page 88And of course his blabbing I guarantee that you will NEVER be able to answer. )
If only he could be as civil as you this issue would have been resolved looooong time ago. '(
I asked myself this question when I was just a kid and could understand the logic and planning behind it hail"God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship" from (2185)
Hajj is an obligation only for those who can afford it and it requires travelling to a certain destination. There is no requirement to start it from the crescent because Allah(swt) did not want to cause hardship for those who needed time to travel to a far off place.
If Hajj was to start straight away after sighting the crescent, based on the same principle of witnessing the moon, as in Ramadan, then imagine the difficulty and chaos caused for those who must travel from far off places.
You plan your holidays and travel well in advance, but when it comes to pushing your desire over logic you overlook the most obvious.
pr I do sincerely hope you pay attention to the nature of God who is the best of planners.
Ps Now please tell your friend Dr Ayman to go and stick his head in the sand.
? You are a lawyer and I expect from a lawyer to start from uncertainty, and work their way forward, not the other way round
Since you mentioned the Lawyer, allow me to educate you; Samia a trespass is a trespass; you cannot sneak into a premises from the backdoor with the excuse that the notice was only displayed in the front yard.
So no fiddling as per 936, 37.
936. The count of the months with God is twelve months in God's record......
937 Know that the use of the additional month causes an increase in rejection, for it is used by those who have rejected that they may misguide with it by making it lawful one year and forbidding it one year so as to circumvent the count that God has made restricted; , thus they make lawful what God made forbidden! Their evil works have been adorned for them, and God does not guide the rejecting people.
peace -
Peace Eid,
The point to this pointless exercise is you avoiding to answer how to fast a full-moon.
No the point is that all your arguments are from ignorance. Even an illiterate knows the basics such as the difference between masculine (he/"huwa" and feminine pronouns (she/"hiya" and that they refer to masculine and feminine objects. You have not even reached that level. You are acting like a baby who is still learning "dada" and "mama" but doesn't know pronouns and frankly speaking I am not in the mood for babysitting so don't continue sliding this slippery slope and have the courage to admit that you were wrong otherwise you will lose whatever little credibility you still have and changing your screen name will not help.
2183 Ya ayyuha allatheena amanookutiba AAalaykumu alssiyamu
O you those who believe, it is dictated on you the fasting.
2184 waAAala allatheena yuteeqoonahu
?and on those who endure it -- obviously refers back to the fasting.
2185 faman shahida minkumu alshshahra falyasumhu
?so who witnessed from you the month, so he should fast it?
While you have it as?
?.so who witnessed from you the full moon, so he should abstain, the abstinence.Both hu refer back to "the fasting that was dictated on you." This is because there are many types of abstinances. In this case, what was dictated on us is "the fasting of the complete count of a few days".
So yeah a double negative, if your vision is good, you are outdoors in clear weather lucky to see the full moon then avoid the fasting.
Likewise apply what was asked in the prior post...
583-4
And those who declare their wives as forbidden for them as their mothers
so freeing a neck from before that they touch each other
And he who finds not must do the abstinence two successive full-moons before they both touch each other
And he who is unable to do so should feed sixty poor
The abstinence two successive full-moons means wait until next 98%, 99%, 100% full moon then fast to next non-identifiable 98%, 99%, 100% full moon which is about a month +/- a few days for error.
Therefore, the abstinence of one full-moon is ZERO days!Where does it say "the abstinence of one full-moon"? In 2185, like in 2184, the "hu" refers back to "the abstinence that was dictated on you".
- Does he commence fasting? YES!
- Can he sleep with his wife until the next full moon? NO!
- Does feeding 60 poor equate to two months fasting? YES!
You are again speaking from ignorance. Fortunately, only Progressive1993 buys such arguments . There is no such thing as a 11 relation between feeding the poor and days of abstinence. You obviously never read 589 where feeding 10 poor equates to 3 days of fasting (i.e., 3.331). I guess we won't be hearing this nonsense from you again.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Progressive1993,
This is a very good point and furthermore proves that 'shahr' means 'month'. Here you go
581 God has heard the woman who argues with you regarding her husband, and she complains to God. God hears the argument between you. God is Hearer, Seer.
582 Those among you who estrange their wives by saying to them "You are as my mother." They can never be as their mothers, for their mothers are the women who gave birth to them. Indeed, they are uttering what is strange and a falsehood. God is Pardoner, Forgiver.
583 Those who had estranged their wives in this manner, then they again repeat it, they shall free a slave before they have sexual contact between them. This is to enlighten you. God is well aware of everything you do.
584 However, he who does not have the means shall fast for two consecutive months before the couple may touch one another again; and he who is unable to do it shall feed sixty poor people. That is so you would acknowledge God and His messenger. These are the limits set by God. Those who do not appreciate have incurred a painful retribution.
584 Faman lam yajid fasiyamushahrayni mutatabiAAayni min qabli an yatamassafaman lam yastatiAA fa-itAAamu sitteenamiskeenan thalika litu/minoo biAllahiwarasoolihi watilka hudoodu Allahi walilkafireenaAAathabun aleemun.
Feeding 60 needy people equates to to fasting for two 'shahrs' ('shahrayn' (months), in the above case.You might want to read 589 and then be mature enough to admit it when you are wrong.
Peace,
Ayman
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Salaam Samia,
No, put it all together, both are a remembrance...
7431... she/it is not except a remembrance to the human
Salaam Eid
(7431... she/it is not except)
What does "she/it is" refer to? It cannot refer to since it precedes it. This is against universal grammar of linguistics.
is not exclusively linked to the qur'aan. It's mentioned in the quraan several times with no relation to itverse 3843
And We gave him his people, and doubled their number,- as a Grace from Ourselves, and a thing for commemoration, for all who have Understanding.
Now give us your honest opinion of Ayman's assertion which lead to the above off topic...
2183 Ya ayyuha allatheena amanookutiba AAalaykumu alssiyamu
O you those who believe, it is dictated on you the fasting.2184 waAAala allatheena yuteeqoonahu
?and on those who endure it -- obviously refers back to the fasting.2185 faman shahida minkumu alshshahra falyasumhu
?so who witnessed from you the month, so he should fast it?While Ayman has it as?
?.so who witnessed from you the full moon, so he should abstain, the abstinence.If we see it as "linguistically ambiguous" because two m.s nouns precede it,we have to find a reason to support one understanding against the other. For example, if you say The national banks conference this is an "ambiguous" sentence unless you can prove whether "national" refers to banks or conference. The almost equal nearness of the adjective to both nouns causes this ambiguity.
Back to your question In such a case I would personally say it refers to "shahr" since it's the nearest singular masculine to the pronoun.My answer to the remainder of your post will follow.
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Peace Progressive1993,
You might want to read 589 and then be mature enough to admit it when you are wrong.
Peace,
Ayman
OMG... what is wrong with your inference/deduction/argumentation/logic?!?! You have proven them to be very bad in your last few posts...
589 and 581-4 are talking about different things, hence there are different methods of redeeming oneself. Are you trying to suggest that there is a contradiction in the Quran?
It is an undeniable fact, that one can fast for 2 'shahrs' (months) or feed 60 if in the situation described in 581-4.
Ayman, your theory is a like a bad word...
1426 The example of a bad word is like a tree which has been uprooted from the surface of the earth, it has no stability.
I also would like to add that you have yet failed to give proofs of monotheists in the past fasting after having witnessed 'the full moon of scorching heat'.
I think you dont want to respond to my post with red and blue because I have shown you evidence from teh OT that people in Israel fasted in the 9th month of a lunar calendar... wait.. isnt Ramadan the ninth month of the Islamic Lunar Calendar? hmm
From http//www.submission.org/fasting-bible.html
"And it came to pass in the fifth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, in the ninth month, that they proclaimed a fast before the Lord to all the people in Jerusalem, and to all the people that came from the cities of Judah unto Jerusalem." This is not a special fast proclaimed by a religious ruler, because this particular king was wicked. Nevertheless, he did follow the formality of what was practiced the month of fasting. The time given for this fasting is stated to be the ninth month.
The season of the fast in this particular year, thought by many scholars to be 604 B.C., is stated to be in the winter. Jeremiah 3622, "Now the king sat in the winter house in the ninth month and there was a fire on the hearth burning before him." Now the present Jewish calendar adds a thirteenth month from time to time to match the solar year, so that the ninth month of the civil year (used in the dates of kings' reigns) falls in May or June, summer in Palestine. If we project the lunar calendar presently used in the Middle East back in history, we find that the ninth month falls in November of the year 604 B.C. It appears that during Bible times a purely lunar calendar was used, and the ninth month was a month of fasting.
Lets see if you continue ignoring..
peace
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In Urdu month and moon is also referred to as Ashahra.(3hahra) The cycle is mainly divided into three parts Awwal Ashahra, Thanni Ashahra and Aakhri Ashahra.
my dear