Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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seid you did not fully put that into scope.
yes the thirty shahr include the pregnancy period and the suckleing period.
wich is only about six month of pregnancy and tow years of suckleing.
i would say that the first few month of pregnancy the fetus is not devaloped to call it a fetus it is really only a fertelized egg.
only when their is extra weight that it is considered and that would be after three month of pregnancy and a fetus would start to devalope,check the ultra sound for a pregnant woman,trust me i have three kids and i see how the fetus devalope.
so it is thirty month of carrying.
salam. -
Let me breakdown what you wrote
- The "hajj" is days maadoodat. Agreed
- The 10 days fast is for those whose family is present in the inviolable institution of obedience and... Agreed on 10 days fast
- ...thus will fast the whole maximum/complete maadoodat of 10 days while the 3 is for those whose family is not. Problem for me here, I found you mixing both the above mentioned points together when actually they are two different things. One talks about the period of Hajj, and second is about fasting for 10 days ONLY for those who cannot bring offering .
The period of "hajj" is not specifically 3 or 10. One can stay 2 or more than 3. We know that "maadodat" cannot be just any number and is more than 2 based on 2203. So the only question remaining is what is the max/complete of "maadoodat"?
- This is clear from 2196. Yes only 10 days fasting is clear from 2196 without any mentioning of iddat.
- If you don't agree then why do you think the god mentioned the result 10 when everyone can count 3+7 and also why did he specifically describe the 10 as complete? I agree that there must be some reason for that, but still I cannot relate it with ayyamam maadoodaat. I also agree with you that other numbers, such as 1000-50 and 300+9 does not show the complete result as in 2196, so there must be some reason.
The reason is to answer the question "what is the max/complete of maadoodat?" Simple.
Peace,
Ayman
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This is a false analogy. The god certainly knows that people can add and subtract. He says 1000-50 and doesn't give the result 950 and he says 300+9 and doesn't give the result as 309.
ONLY in the case of 3+7 he gives the total specifically described as a COMPLETE 10 to make it clear that 10 is the COMPLETE count of few/maadoodat.
verse 2914 - 1000 minus 50
verse 1825 - 300 plus 9
Verse 2196 - 3 plus 7 - a complete 10The analogy between these verses is that numbers are put in a special way - and thereby the verses can let the reader wonder what the reason could be behind this.
The three verses have three different ways of presenting a count - that is clear, that does not make the analogy false.Verse 2196 does not imply that a count until 10 can be called a -count ma'doodat- according to the Koran.
The word -ma'doodat- is not used in verse 2196.Verse 2203 gives koranic evidence for a possible range of -ma'doodat- as a standard it is 3, it can be 2 or somewhat more.
The wording -to hurry/hasten- is connected to the number of days of staying at the -hajj- going from 3 to 2.
The wording -delays- refers to a stay of somewhat longer than 3 days.
The number 10 seems not to be in this range of -ma'doodat- an increase of the stay up to 230% of the standard duration of 3 days could hardly be called a reasonable delay. In the Koran no proof is found that the -hajj- lasted until 10 days.
Rather a maximum stay of 4 or 5 days seems to be implied.- Anyway there is no koranic proof beyond reasonable doubt that a -count ma'doodat- can be until 10.
- There is no koranic proof that completing a -count ma'doodat- should only go until 10.
- Considering the wording of verses 2196 and 2203 - one can conclude that they do not suggest a duration of the communal fast of 10 days in any way.
The wording of verses 2184, 2185 and 2203 refers rather to a duration of the communal fast of 3 days.
The following words seem to be clear, precise and bindingverse 2185 ... whoever witnessed the full moon shall fast it ...
The duration of the full moon as seen from earth's perspective is 3 days (at least 98% coverage).
The connection with the duration of the fast can be found confirmed by the usage of the wording -ma'doodat- in verses 2184 and 2203.As said before
It would be particular to assume that our Creator gave the details of the time-frame of only special occasions of fasting for some special people and not for the general communal fast of -shahr ramadan-.- 492 - a fast of two consecutive full moons in case of unvoluntary manslaughter and one can not compensate in another prescribed way.
- 584 - a fast of two consecutive full moons in case of a certain wrong manner of divorce.
- 589 - a fast of three day in case of breaking a serious oath and one can not compensate in another prescribed way.
- 2196 - a dual fast of 3 + 7 days for a special group of visitors of the -hajj-.
It seems to be particular to assume that for the communal fast of -shahr ramadan- the believers are not precisely instructed and that they should read in sources next to the Koran that a -count ma'doodat- has to be until 10 - since this general rule is not found in the Koran.
Verse 2185 seems to be complete and detailed in this matter - no assumptions needed.
... Therefore, those of you who witnessed the -full moon- shall fast it ...
The ones who missed the communal fast, or one or two days of it, can fast other days and complete the relevant count - in this case that seems to be until three, the duration of a full moon.Peace,
TruthseekerDisclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.
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Peace --
verse 2914 - 1000 minus 50
sanat cannot be same as aman/year nor does it make sense for anyone to live 950 years.
Different topic although may add insight; believe an equation is given ...
4615 And bearing of him and his separation thirty shahran until when he reaches his strength and reaches forty sanatan
30 x 29.53059 days (lunar month) = 2.42556228 years = 40 sanat
2914 And verily, We sent Noah to his people and he remained among them thousand sanatin less fifty years
3/4 lunar month x 1000 = 60.639057 years ? 50 years = 10.639057 years
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^^
Peace,First, re living for 950 years, it's like saying, 'I've never met one who does it so it doesn't make sense.'
Second, your equation raises another question what kind of "strength" exactly that is being reached when your child reaches 2 1/2 years? I'm asking this because that's not even an age when you can leave your child to live by himself.
Third, IMO it's overly cryptic to say 1000 something minus 50 something to just say "ten (or eleven) years".
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^^
Peace,First, re living for 950 years, it's like saying, 'I've never met one who does it so it doesn't make sense.'
Peace,
It's illogical, means all those people also lived 950 years and contradictory ...
296 if he could be granted life thousand sanatin
Second, your equation raises another question what kind of "strength" exactly that is being reached when your child reaches 2 1/2 years? I'm asking this because that's not even an age when you can leave your child to live by himself.
Perhaps used wrong word in English; look up all uses choose best meaning...
6152 ashuddahu his development
1222 ashuddahu his development
1734 ashuddahu his development
1882 ashuddahum their development
225 ashuddakum your development
2814 ashuddahu his development
4067 ashuddakum your development
4615 ashuddahu his developmentThird, IMO it's overly cryptic to say 1000 something minus 50 something to just say "ten (or eleven) years".
It's not sanat - sanat; rather sanat - aman different terms, equation for calculation clearly given...
4615 30 shahr = 40 sanat
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Peace,
It's illogical, means all those people also lived 950 years and contradictory ...
296 if he could be granted life thousand sanatin
No, not necessarily all those people. Reported in 2914 is just a "he" who remained among his people (say, a nation, collectively, i.e. generations of the same nation).
296 clearly speaks of a different person/people.
It may sound illogical for us who are not used to seeing people older than age 100. Though i still think that this is not something that is already set in stone, since we haven't figured out everything about our DNA and all the potentials we have.
Perhaps used wrong word in English; look up all uses choose best meaning...
6152 ashuddahu his development
1222 ashuddahu his development
1734 ashuddahu his development
1882 ashuddahum their development
225 ashuddakum your development
2814 ashuddahu his development
4067 ashuddakum your development
4615 ashuddahu his developmentsame question with another word here ("development" in place of "strength"...
It's not sanat - sanat; rather sanat - aman different terms, equation for calculation clearly given...
4615 30 shahr = 40 sanat
okay, i should've said 1000 something - 50 something else but you clearly missed my point about being 'overly cryptical'...
My point being, the term sanat might have been a common measurement unit (not necessarily same as "aman/year", but what is the significance of 3/4 lunar month or ~22 days?
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No, not necessarily all those people. Reported in 2914 is just a "he" who remained among his people (say, a nation, collectively, i.e. generations of the same nation).
296 clearly speaks of a different person/people.
It may sound illogical for us who are not used to seeing people older than age 100. Though i still think that this is not something that is already set in stone, since we haven't figured out everything about our DNA and all the potentials we have.
2324 so said the chiefs those who disbelieved from his people, "This is not except a man like you...
Would you consider someone living today yet born in 11th century the same as you;
perhaps he?d give insight on events 900+ years ago like crusaders capturing Jerusalem in 1099 CE?Reminds me of those who believe in 6000 year old earth, yet trees are older...
World's Oldest Living Tree -- 9550 Years Old -- Discovered In Sweden
http//www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080416104320.htmsame question with another word here ("development" in place of "strength"...
ashuddahu pertains to different stages of growth and development...
46 and test the orphans until when they reach the age of marriage
so if you perceive in them sound judgment so deliver to them their wealth
1734 and not come near wealth the orphan apart from with what it's best until he reaches ashuddahuYou consider withholding orphan?s wealth and forbid marriage until they reached age 40?
okay, i should've said 1000 something - 50 something else but you clearly missed my point about being 'overly cryptical'...
My point being, the term sanat might have been a common measurement unit (not necessarily same as "aman/year", but what is the significance of 3/4 lunar month or ~22 days?
is year...
2914 and verily, We sent Noah to his people and he remained among them thousand sanat less fifty man
3114 and his separation in mayni (two years)sanat (harvest window perhaps)
(30 lunar months) / 40 = 22.1479425 days296 if he could be granted life thousand sanat
((30 lunar months) / 40) x 1000 = 60.639057 years526 "so indeed it forbidden to them forty sanat they will wander in the earth
((30 lunar months) / 40) x 40 = 2.42556228 years2247 a day with your Lord like thousand sanat from what you reckon
((30 lunar months) / 40) x 1000 = 60.639057 years2914 and verily, We sent Noah to his people and he remained among them thousand sanat except fifty man
(3/4) x lunar month x 1000 = 60.639057 years ? 50 years = 10.639057 years325 in a day measure which is thousand sanat from what you reckon
((30 lunar months) / 40) x 1000 = 60.639057 years4615 and bearing of him and his separation thirty shahr until when he reaches his development and reaches forty sanat
((30 lunar months) / 40) x 40 = 2.42556228 years704 a day its measure fifty thousand sanat
((30 lunar months) / 40) x 50,000 = 3,031.95285 yearssinna is seasons/harvests perhaps ?
1247 He said, "You will sow seven sinna as usual, so what you reap so leave it in its ears only little from what you eat.
1712 ...and that you may know number al-sinna and the count. And everything We have explained it detailed
1825 And they remained in their cave three hundred sinna and add nine
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2324 so said the chiefs those who disbelieved from his people, "This is not except a man like you...
Would you consider someone living today yet born in 11th century the same as you;
perhaps he?d give insight on events 900+ years ago like crusaders capturing Jerusalem in 1099 CE?Yes, especially when our background (e.g. nationality) hasn't changed much in all those nine centuries. You're not comparing Noah's time with today's (and back to 11th century) Jerusalem are you?
And I don't know why you're referring to 2324, because in that case, even a prophet from six or nine thousand years ago is also "not except a man like you".
Please note that i haven't assigned any number to the 'variable'. At this point however, i will not discard the option of even "nine hundred and fifty years" just because it is not something that's happening in this time (and AQ doesn't suggest this either--it's a reference of the past, and likely, of a very special case).
Reminds me of those who believe in 6000 year old earth, yet trees are older...
World's Oldest Living Tree -- 9550 Years Old -- Discovered In Sweden
http//www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080416104320.htmI don't get the relevance. I believe that humanity (with God-conscious potential) was started more than tens of thousands of years ago on earth.
ashuddahu pertains to different stages of growth and development...
46 and test the orphans until when they reach the age of marriage
so if you perceive in them sound judgment so deliver to them their wealth
1734 and not come near wealth the orphan apart from with what it's best until he reaches ashuddahuYou consider withholding orphan?s wealth and forbid marriage until they reached age 40?
Yes, I believe Ashuddahu is different for everyone, it's not a one-size-fits-all standard marked by certain amount of time, as you have suggested yourself. From 4615, I do not equalize "ashuddahu" with "40 sanat". I asked because of a little semantic problem with your equation/conversion of 4615.
You would not give all the orphans' wealth when they reached age two and a half year so they can manage it by themselves, would you? "Sound judgment" in that age would be the miraculous exception rather than the norm, i suppose we'll both agree on that (i.e. "sound judgment" will be reached past age 2 1/2).
Let's try to see it this way, using your translation and your conversion
4615 And bearing of him and his separation thirty shahran until when he reaches his development/maturity and reaches forty sanatan
Would it be logical for AQ to talk about human development in random fashion such as this
4615 And bearing of him and his separation 2.42556228 years until when he reaches his development/maturity (>2.42556228 years) and reaches 2.42556228 years
This is where the question came from.
sanat (harvest window perhaps)
(30 lunar months) / 40 = 22.1479425 daysThank you but IMO you're just presenting your own conversion table. You're so called "equation" is where verification is most needed. Thanks however for showing that it could be somehow related with sinna. For now i will hold my opinion.
Peace,
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Peace --
sanat cannot be same as aman/year nor does it make sense for anyone to live 950 years.
Different topic although may add insight; believe an equation is given ...
4615 And bearing of him and his separation thirty shahran until when he reaches his strength and reaches forty sanatan
30 x 29.53059 days (lunar month) = 2.42556228 years = 40 sanat
2914 And verily, We sent Noah to his people and he remained among them thousand sanatin less fifty years
3/4 lunar month x 1000 = 60.639057 years ? 50 years = 10.639057 years
Salaam
This thread was becoming so repeatative that it was not worth contributing to it, until you started discussing Sanat and Aam as this is very important subject this may lead us to reccognising forbidden months too.
Why not start a new thread discussing the difference between these terms so others, who may have had enough of this thread and may not even bother to look at it twice, will miss out on this subject.
I always hmm Noah live for almost a century and how many generation he saw passed during his life time?
When referring to Noah's age we read Sanat and Aaman in that verse so yes I am inclind to follow your calculations so does that means he lived till 60+ OR was it after the storm that he lived for another 60 years?Peace
BTW I only read this thread when I see any contribution form SEid
Simpls -
sanat cannot be same as aman/year nor does it make sense for anyone to live 950 years.
Different topic although may add insight; believe an equation is given ...
4615 And bearing of him and his separation thirty shahran until when he reaches his strength and reaches forty sanatan
30 x 29.53059 days (lunar month) = 2.42556228 years = 40 sanat
2914 And verily, We sent Noah to his people and he remained among them thousand sanatin less fifty years
3/4 lunar month x 1000 = 60.639057 years ? 50 years = 10.639057 years
Peace
2914 And verily, We sent Noah to his people and he remained among them thousand -sanatin- less fifty -<aamaan-.
Both the word -sana- as the word -<aam- seem to mean a year according to the Koran. Both words are seemingly interchangable
But it is noticable that sometimes the Koran uses the word -sana- in a negative context and the word -<aam- in a positive context.7130 We then afflicted the people of Pharaoh with years of drought/-sineen-, a shortage in crops, so that they might take heed.
1247 He said, "You will plant regularly for seven years/-sineen-, and whatever you harvest you must leave it in its pods, except for the little that you will eat."
1248 "Then after that will come seven ones severe in drought, which will consume all that you planted except for what you have stored."
1249 "Then after that will come a year/-<aam- in which the people will have abundant rain and which they will be able to produce once again."Lane's dictionary states that the word -sana- can refer to a year of drought or barrenness.
This information could lead to following reading of verse 2914 - as is mentioned in Lane's as well.
- And verily, We sent Noah to his people and he remained among them thousand years of hardship -sanatin- less fifty good years -<aamaan-.-
In the Bible, Genesis 929 states And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years and he died.
The reading of the word -sana- as 22 days seems not to be supported by verse 4615.
- "My Lord, direct me to appreciate the blessings You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents, and to do righteousness that pleases You. And let my progeny be righteous. I have repented to You; I am of those who have submitted." -
These words are rather spoken by an adult person - not by a little child of about 2.4 years old.
Truthseeker
Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.
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Peace,
Yes, especially when our background (e.g. nationality) hasn't changed much in all those nine centuries. You're not comparing Noah's time with today's (and back to 11th century) Jerusalem are you?
And I don't know why you're referring to 2324, because in that case, even a prophet from six or nine thousand years ago is also "not except a man like you".
No, unless humans had similar life spans he'd be a man 900+ years older/unlike you not a tree.
Would it be logical for AQ to talk about human development in random fashion such as this
4615 And bearing of him and his separation 2.42556228 years until when he reaches his development/maturity (>2.42556228 years) and reaches 2.42556228 years
Talks about one critical stage of early life development (ashuddahu) and equates 30 shahr to 40 sanat not about attaining wisdom/maturity at exactly age 40 or that people are dumb before that.
4067 furthermore He brings you out a child, furthermore lets you reach ashuddakum
This thread was becoming so repeatative that it was not worth contributing to it, until you started discussing Sanat and Aam as this is very important subject this may lead us to reccognising forbidden months too.
Why not start a new thread discussing the difference between these terms so others, who may have had enough of this thread and may not even bother to look at it twice, will miss out on this subject.Yes, this thread is the mother of all threads. Perhaps I'll revive/link to one of the older topics.
2914 And verily, We sent Noah to his people and he remained among them thousand -sanatin- less fifty -<aamaan-.
Both the word -sana- as the word -<aam- seem to mean a year according to the Koran. Both words are seemingly interchangable
But it is noticable that sometimes the Koran uses the word -sana- in a negative context and the word -<aam- in a positive context.7130 We then afflicted the people of Pharaoh with years of drought/-sineen-, a shortage in crops, so that they might take heed.
1247 He said, "You will plant regularly for seven years/-sineen-, and whatever you harvest you must leave it in its pods, except for the little that you will eat."
1248 "Then after that will come seven ones severe in drought, which will consume all that you planted except for what you have stored."
1249 "Then after that will come a year/-<aam- in which the people will have abundant rain and which they will be able to produce once again."Lane's dictionary states that the word -sana- can refer to a year of drought or barrenness.
This information could lead to following reading of verse 2914 - as is mentioned in Lane's as well.
- And verily, We sent Noah to his people and he remained among them thousand years of hardship -sanatin- less fifty good years -<aamaan-.-
That's an obvious contradiction; Lane was a bad logician. 50 harsh or good years?
When does a year start and how to determine a good or bad year; can it be both?
Why would anyone desire thousand years of hardship?
296 ...he could be granted a life thousand sanat (bad years?)
2247 a day with your Lord like thousand sanat (bad years?) from what you reckonIn the Bible, Genesis 929 states And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years and he died.
No time to study Bible or ancient Hebrew although it's similar to Arabic?
http//biblos.com/genesis/9-29.htmThe reading of the word -sana- as 22 days seems not to be supported by verse 4615.
- "My Lord, direct me to appreciate the blessings You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents, and to do righteousness that pleases You. And let my progeny be righteous. I have repented to You; I am of those who have submitted." -
These words are rather spoken by an adult person - not by a little child of about 2.4 years old.
Does it say in the verse at exactly age 40 the human says that?
They are spoken by those considerate of their parents ? at any age!4615
And We have enjoined the mankind to his parents? kindness
Carried him his mother hardship and gave birth to him hardshipAnd bearing of him and his separation thirty shahr until when he reaches ashuddahu and reaches forty sanat
He says, "My Lord...
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That's an obvious contradiction; Lane was a bad logician. 50 harsh or good years?
Lane's dictionary states that the word -sana- can refer to a year of drought or barrenness.
2914 And verily, We sent Noah to his people and he remained among them thousand years of hardship -sanatin- less fifty good years -<aamaan-.
1000 years of difficulty minus 50 years that were as a contrast good.
In analogy of following verses
7130 We then afflicted the people of Pharaoh with years of drought/-sineen-, a shortage in crops, so that they might take heed.
1247 He said, "You will plant regularly for seven years/-sineen-, and whatever you harvest you must leave it in its pods, except for the little that you will eat."
1248 "Then after that will come seven ones severe in drought, which will consume all that you planted except for what you have stored."
1249 "Then after that will come a year/-<aam- in which the people will have abundant rain and which they will be able to produce once again."As said before, verse 2914 has a special wording.
A person could say I had 60 bad years except for 3 good ones. It is not the most direct way of transferring a message - but it is clear.
The explanation as found in Lane's dictionary seems not to be illogical.When does a year start and how to determine a good or bad year; can it be both?
The Koran does not give information about the timing of the start of the year.
Both words for year -<aam- and -sana- are used in the Koran in general.
Only in the case of a contrast between years the word -sana- is sometimes used in a negative context and the word -<aam- in a positive context.Why would anyone desire thousand years of hardship?
296 ...he could be granted a life thousand sanat (bad years?)
2247 a day with your Lord like thousand sanat (bad years?) from what you reckonThe word -sana- is also used in a neutral way as is the word -<aam- when there is not a context of positive versus negative.
No time to study Bible or ancient Hebrew although it's similar to Arabic?
http//biblos.com/genesis/9-29.htmCopy-paste from the link
sha?nah yearsThe Hebrew word -shanah- for year is rather similar to the Arabic word -sana-
Does it say in the verse at exactly age 40 the human says that?
They are spoken by those considerate of their parents ? at any age!
4615
And We have enjoined the mankind to his parents? kindness
Carried him his mother hardship and gave birth to him hardshipNumbers can have a symbolical meaning - the year 40 can be read as a symbol of mental maturity.
Interestingly some modern insights on the human development acknowledge the real maturity of a human around the age of 40.
That of course does not exclude that people can realise the knowledge of verse 4615 at other ages as well.And bearing of him and his separation thirty shahr until when he reaches ashuddahu and reaches forty sanat
He says, "My Lord...The cause and effect of the verse seem to be when one reaches maturity - symbolized as the age of 40 years, then one may acknowledge the value of following sentence
- "My Lord, direct me to appreciate the blessings You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents, and to do righteousness that pleases You. And let my progeny be righteous. I have repented to You; I am of those who have submitted." -
Peace,
TruthseekerDisclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.
-
Peace,
1000 years of difficulty minus 50 years that were as a contrast good.
50 of 1000 cannot be called bad then also called good.
1247 He said, "You will plant regularly for seven years/-sineen-, and whatever you harvest you must leave it in its pods, except for the little that you will eat."
1248 "Then after that will come seven ones severe in drought, which will consume all that you planted except for what you have stored."
1249 "Then after that will come a year/-<aam- in which the people will have abundant rain and which they will be able to produce once again."As said before, verse 2914 has a special wording.
A person could say I had 60 bad years except for 3 good ones. It is not the most direct way of transferring a message - but it is clear.
The explanation as found in Lane's dictionary seems not to be illogical.An obvious contradiction and illogical; seven good which they stored their food followed by seven bad?
Copy-paste from the link
sha?nah yearsThe Hebrew word -shanah- for year is rather similar to the Arabic word -sana-
Perhaps they have it wrong ...
Hebrew Transliteration English
vai?yih?yu become
kol- all
ye?mei- day/era
no?ach, Noah
te?sha nine
me?'o?vt hundred
sha?nah, ?
va?cha?mi?shim fifty
sha?nah; ?Numbers can have a symbolical meaning - the year 40 can be read as a symbol of mental maturity.
Interestingly some modern insights on the human development acknowledge the real maturity of a human around the age of 40.
That of course does not exclude that people can realise the knowledge of verse 4615 at other ages as well.Therefore a contradiction as with the case of orphans marrying and getting their inheritance < age 40.
The cause and effect of the verse seem to be when one reaches maturity - symbolized as the age of 40 years, then one may acknowledge the value of following sentence
- "My Lord, direct me to appreciate the blessings You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents, and to do righteousness that pleases You. And let my progeny be righteous. I have repented to You; I am of those who have submitted." -
Again another contradiction soon as any believer < age 40 says that.
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50 of 1000 cannot be called bad then also called good.
The special wording of verse 2914 seems to give the message that the years of Noah that he remained with his people were many and most of them were difficult. In a literal reading 50 easier and 950 harder years.
As said before in analogy
A person could say I had 60 bad years except for 3 good ones. It is not the most direct way of transferring a message - but it is clear.An obvious contradiction and illogical; seven good which they stored their food followed by seven bad?
The first seven years can also be seen as hard years because of following
1247 He said, "You will plant regularly for seven years/-sineen-, and whatever you harvest you must leave it in its pods, except for the little that you will eat."Perhaps they have it wrong ...
Hebrew Transliteration English
vai?yih?yu become
kol- all
ye?mei- day/era
no?ach, Noah
te?sha nine
me?'o?vt hundred
sha?nah, ?
va?cha?mi?shim fifty
sha?nah; ?Both the Koran as the Torah indicate that the age of Noah was very high and that it is worthwhile to mention.
This is not the case with other prophets.According to your interpretation there would not be anything special about the duration of the stay of Noah with his people - so why would it still be mentioned with Noah and not with the other prophets?
Therefore a contradiction as with the case of orphans marrying and getting their inheritance < age 40.
Again another contradiction soon as any believer < age 40 says that.There is not a contradiction - it depends on the context what the word -ashuddahu- means.
There are nevertheless the literal wording of verse 4615 many children that are not getting breast-feeded until the total age of 30 -shahr- (including pregnancy).
The words are rather used in general in a normative way concerning the period of breast-feeding. This does not create a contradiction either.As said before
Numbers can have a symbolical meaning - the year 40 can be read as a symbol of mental maturity.
Interestingly some modern insights on the human development acknowledge the real maturity of a human around the age of 40.
That of course does not exclude that people can realise the knowledge of verse 4615 at other ages as well.
This is not contradictory - it is rather the sometimes special use of language of the Koran.Anyway for now I do not see any sense in a new usage of a 22 day period of counting.
From verse 4615 one can not read a binding ruling in this matter - rather the contrary, seeing the other koranic verses.
It seems not to have any contact with phases of the moon or other phenomena - or with known calendars.
There does not seem to be any practical use for a period of 22 days as a way for counting time.Peace,
TruthseekerDisclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.
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Peace Eid,
sanat cannot be same as aman/year nor does it make sense for anyone to live 950 years.
Different topic although may add insight; believe an equation is given ...
4615 And bearing of him and his separation thirty shahran until when he reaches his strength and reaches forty sanatan
30 x 29.53059 days (lunar month) = 2.42556228 years = 40 sanat
2914 And verily, We sent Noah to his people and he remained among them thousand sanatin less fifty years
3/4 lunar month x 1000 = 60.639057 years ? 50 years = 10.639057 yearsDear brother, I agree that "sana" and "aam" are different but forty sana cannot be 2.42 years. Reason is that if we read the rest of 4615, we will see that upon reaching 40 sana, the person would say "O my Lord! Grant me that I may be grateful for your favour that you have bestowed upon me, and upon both my parents, and that I may work righteousness that you approve; and make my offspring good. I have repented to you and I am amongst the peacemakers." Surely, a 2.42 year old child cannot utter such prayer.
I think that if we look at all the passages where "sana" is mentioned, it seems to have to do with the natural cycle of the earth (For example, see 105 and 1712).
On the other hand, "aam" seem to have to do with human calendars. For example, see "aamohm" (their year)
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace truthseeker,
Both the Koran as the Torah indicate that the age of Noah was very high and that it is worthwhile to mention.
This is not the case with other prophets.According to your interpretation there would not be anything special about the duration of the stay of Noah with his people - so why would it still be mentioned with Noah and not with the other prophets?
Samia explained it nicely in this thread...
I do not think that Noah lived 950 years, otherwise, his people would have believed in his message, thinking that he was an extraordinary creature or an angel...
That of course does not exclude that people can realise the knowledge of verse 4615 at other ages as well.
Correct!
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Peace Eid,
Dear brother, I agree that "sana" and "aam" are different but forty sana cannot be 2.42 years. Reason is that if we read the rest of 4615, we will see that upon reaching 40 sana, the person would say "O my Lord! Grant me that I may be grateful for your favour that you have bestowed upon me, and upon both my parents, and that I may work righteousness that you approve; and make my offspring good. I have repented to you and I am amongst the peacemakers." Surely, a 2.42 year old child cannot utter such prayer.
I think that if we look at all the passages where "sana" is mentioned, it seems to have to do with the natural cycle of the earth (For example, see 105 and 1712).
On the other hand, "aam" seem to have to do with human calendars. For example, see "aamohm" (their year)
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Thank you for that concise reply and sanat seems to fit perfectly with concept of time in general...
Here are verses for reference...
2259 he said, "nay, you remained hundred AAam
928 so not let them come near al-masjid al-haraam after mihim
937 they make it allowed AAam
937 and make it prohibited AAam
9126 do not they see that they are tried in every AAam once or twice?
1249 then comes from after that AAam
2914 and verily, We sent Noah to his people and he remained among them thousand sanat/time only fifty AAamA
3114 and his separation in mayni296 if he could be granted life thousand sanat/time
526 so indeed it forbidden to them forty sanat/time they will wander in the earth
2247 a day with your Lord like thousand sanat/time from what you reckon
2914 And verily, We sent Noah to his people and he stayed with them thousand sanat/time only fifty AAamA
325 in a day measure which is thousand sanat/time from what you reckon
4615 and bearing of him and his separation thirty shahr until when he reaches ashuddahu and reaches forty sanat/time
704 a day its measure fifty thousand sanat/time7130 and certainly, We seized people Firaun bil-sinna/with the time and scarcity of the fruits
105 that you may know amount al-sinna/the time and the count
1242 so he remained in the prison short sinna/time
1247 he said, "You will sow seven sinna/time as usual so what you reap so leave it in its ears only little from what you eat
1712 and that you may know amount al-sinna/the time and the count and everything We have explained it detailed
1811 so We cast over their ears in the cave sinna/time amount
1825 and they remained in their cave three hundred sinna/time and add nine
2040 so you remained sinna/time among people madyan
23112 he?ll ask "how long did you remain in the earth, amount sinna/time? They?ll say, "We remained a day or a part a day
2618 he said, didn't we bring you up among us a child, and you remained among us from your life sinna/time?
26205 We let them enjoy sinna/time
304 in short sinna/time6152 and not go near wealth the orphans except with that which best until he reaches ashuddahu
1222 and when he reached ashuddahu We gave him wisdom and knowledge
1734 and not go near wealth the orphans except with that which best until he reaches ashuddahu1882 so intended your Lord that they reach ashuddahuma and bring forth their treasure
225 and We cause to remain in the wombs what We will for a term appointed moreover We bring you out a child moreover that you may reach ashuddakum2814 and when he reached ashuddahu wa-is'taw We bestowed upon him wisdom and knowledge
4067 furthermore He brings you out a child furthermore lets you reach ashuddakum4615 and bearing of him and his separation thirty shahr until when he reaches ashuddahu and reaches forty sanat/time/phases/stages
Best regards,
Eid Abdullah
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Samia explained it nicely in this thread...
- I do not think that Noah lived 950 years, otherwise, his people would have believed in his message, thinking that he was an extraordinary creature or an angel... -
According to the Koran - several prophets had special signs next to the content of the message itself.
For instance
- Abraham and the fire that was cool for him.
- Moses and the kane that became a snake and the special white hand.
- Jesus who called people back from the death, healing the sick.
A sign of Noah could be his high age - this can be seen as compatible with the extraordinary deeds of other messengers.
Also Abraham, Moses or Jesus could have been regarded as an extraordinary being because of the special signs.
That was probably the point of the signs - to have a special way of getting attention to the content of the message.The question remains
According to your interpretation there would not be anything special about the duration of the stay of Noah with his people - so why would it still be mentioned in the Koran with Noah and not with the other prophets?Peace,
TruthseekerDisclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.