Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Peace Farida,
For now I would say this much; Please do not respond to my valid concern like a plitician, I have seen enough of Bush and Tony Blair evading the answer and diverting attention.
Now you hurt my feelings putting me in the same sentence as those clowns.
Peace Farida,
Ayman
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Salaam anthonywallace
And what about a blind person who is barred from receiving such a reward ???
peace
???
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Peace Farida,
And what about a blind person who is barred from receiving such a reward ???
You are the only one here barring them. What do you have against blind people?
They are certainly not barred but they are not obligated to fast. I hope that you can see the difference.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Farida,
As you noticed after pondering on the great reading, we are not compulsed to witness the scorching full-moon or even fast. But it is better for us if we knew. So we should try to do it but there is no punishment or we are not going to go to hell if we don't.There is nothing in the great reading that tells us that we should witness the summer solstice. The summer solstice can be calculated years in advance as per 1712. The same goes for the sun and moon cycles. The only time witnessing is required it is only the scorching full-moon and it is only for the purpose of fasting. Notice that 105 doesn't say to witness the sun or the moon to know the number of years. In fact both 1712 and 105 refer to the cycles as ways to teach us "calculation".
This is why you and others here who have not witnessed the scorching full-moon last July are exempt from fasting. The only problem occurs when people say "the god told us to fast now" but they have no proof from the great reading for such claim. The problem is not that they didn't fast during the proper time. The problem is that they are saying something about the god which is not true.Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
I did not mention any punishment and this was not part of my question it will only divert attention from my concern.
The purpose of fasting
2-183 O you who believe! Observing As-Saum (the fasting) is prescribed for you as it was prescribed for those before you, that you may become Al-MuttaqoonDoes that mean that there is no obligation on the blinds to work towards becoming Al-Muttaqoon are they born Muttaqeen due to having no sight ?
OR
There is an obligation to fast on those who have sight and who happen to witness scorching moon and thus need to become Muttaqeen? Some people associate fasting with punishment so are they in fact punished for witnessing this event ???So back to the solstice. As you noticed, in 1712 we are told that daylight and night are used to know the number of years. Since "daylight and night" are the function of the sun and not the moon so according to 1712 the year is certainly solar. How do we use "daylight and night" to determine the number of years? The only way to use "daylight and night" to determine the year is to look at the interval between two consecutive shortest daylight/longest night (winter solstice) or two consecutive shortest night/longest daylight (summer solstice). Of course the etymology of "shahr ramadan" points to the red moon after the summer solstice.
As you saw from the passage of the great reading, the restriction is about hunting and the Arabs changed the calendar to violate the hunting restrictions. Interestingly "taramad", one of the derivatives "rmd/ramadan" is used to describe a mehtod of hunting where the hunters chase a wild animal in the time of heat in the hot desert until its legs are burned and it falls to the ground for an easy catch. Basically, in the hot time of the year, the Arabs favorite sport was this inhumane way of hunting. Moreover, this time is when young animals have just been born. Of course, those young and inexperienced animals would have been easy prey for this cruel method of hunting. Animals also would have been easy to catch because they get very thirsty in the summer. All that a hunter has to do is wait by the water hole. A young animal or a mother who is extremely thirsty from the heat would be very easy catch even without a weapon. Notice that in 594, it is said that the god would test the believers with wild game that can be easily reached with their hands and spears.
Thank you for explaining this; as I said in my post no 29 in this thread that
... I am pretty sure that others too have, in the past, played their part in switching the months, but that does not mean I accept Ayman's version.I would rather keep fasting in a random month than ending up like the Christians http//www.candlegrove.com/solstice.html#turta
A linguistic puzzle.
The rebirth of the sun.
The birth of the Son.
Christmas was transplanted onto the winter solstice, some 1,600 years ago, centuries before the English language emerged from its Germanic roots. Is that why we came to express these two ideas in words that sound so similar?Notice that 105 doesn't say to witness the sun or the moon to know the number of years. In fact both 1712 and 105 refer to the cycles as ways to teach us "calculation".
If what you say is meant by the surah 1712... surely in the Dome of the Rock sits Makaam-e- Ibrahim and the passage of light over the rock should confirm this . I have watched a programme about rays from the sun falling on those rocks.. Do You have any evidence that the rocks in the Dome of the Rock are aligned with the solstices and equinoxes, I think this could be the way to solve this puzzle as
An utterly astounding array of ancient cultures built their greatest architectures -- tombs, temples, cairns and sacred observatories -- so that they aligned with the solstices and equinoxes. Many of us know that Stonehenge is a perfect marker of both solstices
http//www.candlegrove.com/solstice.html#turtapeace
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Peace Farida,
Now you hurt my feelings putting me in the same sentence as those clowns.
Peace Farida,
Ayman
They are not clowns, one avoids straight answers by acting like a clown and the other displays excellent lawyer skills when it comes to playing with words.
Up and coming Obama is good with words too '(I would also like to hear the opinion of others such as sister Samia. When we look as all the occurrences and derivatives on NZL in the great reading, we see that it has to do with "descending" so when it refers to stages I believe that the connotation is not just any "stage" but specifically "descending stages". Since it is impossible for the moon to go through "descending stages" (or to the point where something descends per Anwar) from anything other than the full-moon, this would indicate that the starting stage is the "full-moon".
I hmm Zl is common in both ?Mana ? ZL? and N-ZL.
Is it same ZL as in ZLIL ?
Samia, Wakas and others we need your helppeace
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Peace Frida and All;
Ayman is avoiding to answer my point; as you can note, Summer was after the 4 restricted Month (9-81). in other words, Rammadan had to be 4 month before summer time, and cann't fall in June 15.
If Ayman does not answer, then, I will understand that Ayman is deliberately trying to lead people Astray.Peace
Peace all,
Another point I would like to share with you; The following is a Quotion from Ayman 4 years ago
Begin Quote
Sister, you ignore that you are starting to count 4 "periods" from "ramadan", so according to you the hunting restriction is early fall-winter. Where I am in the Northern Hemisphere, fall is deer hunting season because that is when they are the most plentiful. Hence, your preservation of land-game argument is not factual.
End QuoteAs you can note Rammadan is the begining of 4 restricted Months. Thus according to Ayman, if Rammadan Moon starts in June 15 (solistic Moon), then the end of the 4 restricted Months would be in about October 15. In this time according to Ayman would be Fall time.
Now let us explore the following
( ( ( ( (
A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Messenger to those of the pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances. (1) Go ye, then for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him. (2) And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the pagans. If, then ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith. (3) (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those pagans with whom Ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided anyone against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term for Allah loveth the righteous. (4) But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (9-5)
As you can note the war would start after October 15--Fall Time and not in the heat of Summer time.
Now read the following, from the same Chapter
(
Those who were left behind rejoiced in their inaction behind the back of the Messenger of Allah they hated to strive and fight with their goods and their persons, in the Cause of Allah they said "Go not forth in the heat. Say "The fire of Hell is fiercer in heat." If only they could understand! (9-81)
Now is the period after October 15 Hot or should be...Mild or Cold? Or Maybe it was Global Warming? confused
Peace
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Salaamun all,
2-183 O you who believe! Observing As-Saum (the fasting) is prescribed for you as it was prescribed for those before you, that you may become Al-Muttaqoon
Does that mean that there is no obligation on the blinds to work towards becoming Al-Muttaqoon are they born Muttaqeen due to having no sight ?
OR
There is an obligation to fast on those who have sight and who happen to witness scorching moon and thus need to become Muttaqeen? Some people associate fasting with punishment so are they in fact punished for witnessing this event ???801 HE FROWNED and turned away
AAabasa watawalla
(801)802 because the blind man approached him!
An jaahu alaAAma
(802)803 Yet for all thou didst know, he might perhaps have grown in purity,
Wama yudreeka laAAallahu yazzakka
(803)804 or have been reminded, and helped by this reminder.
Aw yaththakkaru fatanfaAAahu alththikra
(804)805 Now as for him who believes himself to be self-sufficient
Amma mani istaghna
(805)806 to him didst thou give thy whole attention,
Faanta lahu tasadda
(806)807 although thou art not accountable for his failure to attain to purity;
Wama AAalayka alla yazzakka
(807)808 but as for him who came unto thee full of eagerness
Waamma man jaaka yasAAa
(80809 and in awe
Wahuwa yakhsha
(809)But... nothing about Taqwa here -[
Regards,
mmKhan -
I hmm Zl is common in both ?Mana ? ZL? and N-ZL.
Is it same ZL as in ZLIL ?
Samia, Wakas and others we need your helpYou forgot the "N" ;D
The root for both words is "nuun zain laam NZL"
ZLIL (do you mean thaleel lowly; humble?) has only the laam in common, so it's not of the same root (first letter is Thaal, not Zain) -
Peace Frida and All;
Ayman is avoiding to answer my point; as you can note, Summer was after the 4 restricted Month (9-81). in other words, Rammadan had to be 4 month before summer time, and cann't fall in June 15.
If Ayman does not answer, then, I will understand that Ayman is deliberately trying to lead people Astray.Peace
Salaam Bilalhammad,
I think, according to Ayman's calculation, Ramadan would always fall after June 21 and you have put June 15 above. Maybe for that reason he is ignoring it.
I am hopeful that, in the interest of removing all doubts, Ayman would address this post of yours.peace
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You forgot the "N" ;D
The root for both words is "nuun zain laam NZL"
ZLIL (do you mean thaleel lowly; humble?) has only the laam in common, so it's not of the same root (first letter is Thaal, not Zain)Thanks Samia for correcting me but, still could you elaborate Ayman's question;
Quote
I would also like to hear the opinion of others such as sister Samia. When we look as all the occurrences and derivatives on NZL in the great reading, we see that it has to do with "descending" so when it refers to stages I believe that the connotation is not just any "stage" but specifically "descending stages". Since it is impossible for the moon to go through "descending stages" (or to the point where something descends per Anwar) from anything other than the full-moon, this would indicate that the starting stage is the "full-moon".peace
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Salaam Bilalhammad,
I think, according to Ayman's calculation, Ramadan would always fall after June 21 and you have put June 15 above. Maybe for that reason he is ignoring it.
I am hopeful that, in the interest of removing all doubts, Ayman would address this post of yours.peace
Peace,
Let me ask you Question; If Rammadan is the First rectricted month, and it Falls in June 21st; and if the end of the 4 restricted is about October 21, according to Ayman; then, Does verse 9-81 proves that Ayman theory is Wrong?The Truth is, Rammadan had to be 4 months before Summer time.
Peace
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Salam. Because of the large number of people posting, and the various opinions I am addressing everyone in this thread instead of a particular person.
The issue of what and when is shahr ramadan, is a vexing question, and has no consensus amongst Muslims. This is not the only place there is this debate, the issue of when the fast begins and when the fast ends, is also another vexing question with no consensus amongst Muslims.
Because each Muslim has to answer for their own deeds, and not the deeds of others, my first instinct is to advise Muslims to make a determination for themselves as to what shahr ramadan means, and what the black thread of night distinct from the white thread of day means. The reason I say this is because as Muslims we will be judged by our own actions, not by the actions of others.
Of course I know that this will find no satisfaction amongst those Muslims who seek to impose personal concepts on other Muslims. To them I say, remember, if what you insist upon turns out to be wrong, the wrong of what you insisted will be held against you on the day of judgment. For this reason, even if the answer that comes out of the Quran is distasteful to some people, sometimes even to myself, I will share the answer even in the face of a lot of hostility.
When I talk about personal concepts, I am referring to the concepts being insisted upon, like all Muslims should fast at the same time, or all Muslims should pray at the same time. I find there is no clear authority to support the imposition of these concepts. I for one, will not participate in such concepts until I am shown clear authority.
I can cite a clear example of where these concepts produce an irrational result, and because of this I cannot accept these concepts. Take the example of a momin, who lives above the geographical boundary known as the Arctic Circle. In the Arctic Circle one day is six months long, one night is six months long. Should a momin not eat or drink for six months? Should a momin pray only five times in a year? No, obviously not. When these concepts produce irrational results, we have enough sense to go back and figure out what we are supposed to do.
Inshallah Allah will guide all of us.
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All,
Ayman said
Since it is impossible for the moon to go through "descending stages" (or to the point where something descends per Anwar) from anything other than the full-moon, this would indicate that the starting stage is the "full-moon".
I do not agree with this. I do not think that this is the logic behind the etymology of the meaning of 'stages' as it concerns nazala. Despite that we are not dealing with etymology. I was just trying to help people understand the sense behind this meaning and the possible logic for it. manzil means stage, any stage, descending or ascending. As it refers to the moon it includes all its stages before full moon, at full moon and after full moon.
To give a similar word with a somewhat similar concept going on here Mawqa3 means location as well. It is from the root waqa3 which is to fall literally, and also means to occurr/happen. Now Mawqa3 is not where someone literally falls (although it can mean this). It arrived at that meaning from an archaic usage of the concept 'to fall'. Old English I think makes similar use of the concept to fall for location. Ex. "The old oak tree wilst fall to thy left upon the road hither" It can still be used in today's language albeit rare. Ex. "If you keep going straight the store your're looking for will fall on your left." No literal falling at all. And we need only go to the word 'befall' to see how the concept of falling is also connected to occurrence and happenings. So I hope everyone can see how the concept of to fall or descend doesn't have to be literal or order-oriented as it concerns the use of manzil. In the end no matter how far the meanings may seem to stray from the original root, if there is no evidence that it is a post-quranic meaning (the most obvious being that it is an interpretational meaning given by a post-quranic figure) then the meaning is what it is. Period.
Godbless,
Anwar -
All,
I do not agree with this. I do not think that this is the logic behind the etymology of the meaning of 'stages' as it concerns nazala.
(
And say "O my Lord! Enable me to disembark with Thy blessing for Thou art the Best to enable (us) to disembark." (23-29)
And say "My Lord! Cause me to land at a blessed landing-place, for You are the Best of those who bring to land." (23-29)
You are right; here God is ordering the prophet to ask for the blessed Rank (Manzilan) because God is the best when rewarding Ranks (kair El-Monzalin) in Heaven (and not the best in lowring and decending the true believers in ranks of Heaven)
Peace
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Salam ayman. Simply because you personally believe that translations are a magic incantation whereby everything is solved, does not mean thats is true. Even if we examine your claim, to give you fair hearing on the issue, the phrase "shahr ramadan" gets stuck in the starting gate.
I have seen mutiple translations of the word shahr to begin with, month, period, moon, moon goddess, are some of the ones I have seen. Who is to say which one of these is the right one, I am sure people will choose a different translation for different reasons. The word ramadan is alternately claimed to be a proper noun, a derivative of the word ramd meaning to burn, and even then a dispute arises as to whether ramd means burn, when other words are used for burn in the Quran.
I am sure this will lead to forum members insisting they have the answer and that the other person is wrong based on their own personal education and biases. Some people look only in Arabic dictionaries, some people obssess over diacritical marks, some people go to lexicons, you know the drill as well as I do.
Inshallah keeping an open mind on the subject is the best way to go at this point. Claiming we know what everyone should do is improper on weak grounds such as this. Reasonable observance of fasting is the best course.
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Every year, a common occurrence is a dispute between followers of various sects about when so-called Ramadan starts and ends. This year is no exception and some countries ended their so-called Ramadan one day before others.
In the so-called Islamic calendar the start of Ramadan depends on the sighting of the new crescent moon. The sighting of the new crescent moon is not an easy task and only expert observers under optimal viewing conditions can see the new-moon crescent. Hence, the vast majority of people never sees the new-moon crescent and only sees the 1-2 day old crescent. This difficulty is a major reason for the annual dispute about the timing. What many people don't know is that the start of so-called Ramadan depends on a myriad of other factors other than the sighting of the new-moon crescent.
The current so-called Islamic calendar was established during the time of Caliph Omar, long after the death of the prophet and the revelation of the great reading. This is confirmed by archeological evidence from coins and manuscripts of the era.
Interestingly, the word "hijri" doesn't appear on manuscripts until much later so we don't really know what this arbitrary dating of the new era was based on.
One of the factors that affects when present-day so-called Ramadan starts depends on when the start of the so-called Islamic calendar was set. For example, had its start been set for three years earlier, then this year the dating of Ramadan would have been a month earlier. As I mentioned above, we know from verifiable archeological evidence that the new calendar was established around 638 AD, long after the prophet's time. Several generations later, a story circulated that Omar decided after consultation with others to make the year of the "hijra" the first date of the new era. So the timing of Ramadan today is dependent not only on the sighting of the new crescent moon but on an arbitrary decision that was made many centuries ago.
As a side note, traditionalists also contend that the prophet first started to abstain in the second year after migration/"hijra". So according to them this means that 2185 was revealed early in Yathrib. The traditionalists contend that Chapter 9 (where they claim there is the alleged calendar modification order) was revealed in the last year of the prophet's life. By holding to this traditional view and backdating the so-called Islamic calendar to the alleged first year of "hijra" sectarians imply that all his life, the prophet abstained on the wrong dates (see Appendix).
Another factor that the start of the present so-called Ramadan depends on is the order of the months at the time the new calendar system was adopted. In "pre-quranic" times, the Arabs didn't use a single standard calendar. Arabs used calendars based on 4, 5, and 6-season system. Some "pre-quranic" Arabs used the calendar system of the Persians. Others used the calendar system of the Jews and some used the calendar system of the Romans. The Nabataeans used to align the months with the zodiac and hence some Arabs used the star based calendar system. Rabi3 months etymology denotes grazing in spring and fall. In Arabia the rainy season, which would promote the growth of grasses for grazing, occurs during autumn. This is confirmed by what is known about Arabs using a 6 season system that split fall into Rabi3 Althani (early fall) and Kharif (late fall) prior to the so-called Islamic calendar. In this system each season lasted two months. The new Omar Calendar that we have today has a different order for the months. The arbitrary decision to rearrange the order of the months also affects when the present day so-called Ramadan occurs.
Hence, in addition to the sighting of the new crescent moon, we have two other completely arbitrary factors affecting when so-called Ramadan starts. Hence, for all intents and purposes, the current so-called Ramadan is completely arbitrary and it is no different than randomly picking a month for abstaining.
The problem of pinpointing an arbitrary month called Ramadan is the same type of problem that the Jews, Christians, and sectarians face in pinpointing their "holy" days in the arbitrary week. For example, sectarians claim that Friday, which they named Al-Jum3at (as opposed to the common noun "ywm al-jum3at"/time of gathering in the great reading), is a special "holy" day where, according to their traditions, Adam was created. What is hard for many people to understand is that the week is completely arbitrary. Hence, the fact is that the week has not always been seven days. Weeks from 4 to 20 days were observed. For example, the ancient Egyptians used a 10-day week while the Mayans used a 20-day week. The week was typically the interval from one market day to the next. Four to 20 days gave farmers and craftsmen enough time to gather and transport products to sell. Hence, when Friday occurs depends on when the present seven day week was arbitrarily adopted and which day it started with.
There is nothing wrong or forbidden with an arbitrary timeframe in itself. The problem is to act as if The God somehow has to conform to the man-made arbitrary timeframes and to say to people that The God ordered you to fast in this or that completely arbitrary timeframe or take that arbitrary day as "holy". Another problem with such arbitrary timeframes is that errors made at the beginning of their adoption are propagated into the future and get larger and larger. This shouldn't be the case because we are not responsible for the errors of those who came before us. Hence, an effective method of specifying a timeframe shouldn't be one that allows such errors to propagate. It should be one that allows those who have faith at any point of time to obey The God's command correctly irrespective of what their predecessors decided to do or not to do. This is impossible with the current so-called Islamic calendar, which as we saw is influenced by decisions made centuries ago. Another problem is that, as we saw earlier, now and in the past people used different calendars, a universal command that is to be understood by everybody would best be based on clear cosmic phenomena and not on man-made calendars.
Now that we presented the problem, let's look in the great reading for the solution.
2183 O you who have believed, you are ordered to fast as those before you were , it could be that you fear and obey ( God).
2184 (At) certain times ; so whoever of you be ill or on a journey, then finish at differnt times. And concerning those who cannot endure it, you redeem by feeding any (of the) poorest of the poor ; and whoever gives alms volutarily then it is best for him; and it is best that you fast, if you are able.
2185 The Quran was sent down (in the) hottest month, to guide the people and (to) clarify the guidance and the Difference between Right and Wronge. So one should fast the entire month, whoever of you witnesses it. And whoever be ill or on a journey, then finish on different days . God wants you with flexiblness and not with hardship; and so that you may complete the term, and glorify God for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful.
eat
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yay
Praise be to Allah eat
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Salaam everyone
I have noticed that when anyone asks Ayman a question he comes up with his verdict. This habit goes against the practice of the prophet. From the sample of Qur?an verses below we learn how he replied to concerns raisedonly after seeking guidance from God
2189 They ask thee concerning the crescent moons /New Moons/ phases of the moon!. Say .....
2215 They ask thee what they should spend (In charity). Say.....
2217 They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited MONTH. Say " ....
219 They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say ......Therefore I don't need to remind that for all answers here (unless one's personal opinion) we need to give evidence from the Quran and on the subject of witnessing Ramadan, please correct me if I am wrong, the verses below confirm that it?s not only eyes and ears that bear witness, but even one?s skin bears witness.
4120 At length, when they reach the (Fire), their hearing, their sight, and their SKINs will bear witness against them, as to (all) their deeds.
4121 They will say to their SKINs "Why bear ye witness against us?" They will say "(Allah) hath given us speech,- (He) Who giveth speech to everything He created you for the first time, and unto Him were ye to return.
4122 "Ye did not seek to hide yourselves, lest your hearing, your sight, and your SKINs should bear witness against you! But ye did think that Allah knew not many of the things that ye used to do!
I would therefore ask Ayman again Do you still think there is no obligation on the blind to fast and, if so, where is the evidence for that ???
All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.
peace
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Performance agreement
Desired Results - ( This is what The God expexts of all the believers muscle )
- Fast the entire month (of) hottness. 2184 - 185 handshake
Guidelines- ( This is what not to do ) nope
(1.)It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are God?s boundaries, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God makes His revelations clear to the people that they may be righteous. 2187 police
Accountabilities- ( This is the standard performance that is expected of you,how you are to fast, and what you will be held accountable for )
(1.) Eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then complete the fast until night; 2187 handshake eat handshake
Consequenses elektro & elektro
Rewards - ( These are the benifits of fasting yay)
3335 Surely, .... the fasting men, and the fasting women,........ God has prepared for them a forgiveness and a great recompense. pr yay angel
Punishments - ( These are the penaltys for not fasting the hottest month &
N/A wow o wow
peace jedi