Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Peace Guest,
Two quotes from Ayman
?In conclusion, we can see that The God gave us a clear marker for the restriction month. This clear marker is independent from any man-made calendar system and instead relies on easily witnessed cosmic phenomena.?
?You already missed the scorching full-moon (?shahr ramadhan?) for this year. The night of the scorching full-moon for 2009 was July 6. Therefore, the fast started on July 7 for 10 days and so the last day of fasting was July 16.
For next year, the scorching full-moon will be on June 25, 2010. Therefore, the first day of the fast will be June 26 for 10 days and so the last day will be July 5.?
Contradiction, contradiction, contradiction, ???????
First he says that his timing system is independent of manmade calendar/timing system. Then he uses the very manmade calendar to forecast the occurrence of so called next scorching full-moon i.e. June 25, 2010. Any (his) visual based system is incapable of predicting future events. He is also using the manmade calendar to predict summer solstice (June 21-22) and the occurrence of full-moon.Wow! You found a major contradiction in my understanding & . I guess I can forget about trying to find the timing according to the great reading and I should just follow the timing ordained by Umar, the rightly guided companion of the prophet. I will go back to be Sunni again because as Farida said I can't understand the Quran better than the prophet whose understanding she gets from the holy Sunna and Tafsir of Ibn Kathir. But wait, it's a miracle, o here are the exact dates without using any human calendar
This year the night of the fast was The night of the first full-moon after the summer solstice
Next year the night of the fast will be The night of the first full-moon after the summer solstice
The year after the night of the fast will be The night of the first full-moon after the summer solstice
Etc. Etc. Etc.There. People can know exactly when to start fasting with no manmade months names and no arbitrary months order and no dependencies on when the calendar was made to start by some guy.
But he forbids the use same (modern) calendar/timing system to predict the occurrence new moon. This is hypocrisy at its worst.
Now your turn. You or any of the other thinly disguised Sunnis hypocritically pretending to follow the great reading
Please give the timing of the start of the fast with no manmade months names and no arbitrary months order and no dependencies on when the calendar was made to start by some "rightly guided" guy.
WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT AND WHETHER I FORBID IT OR NOT, YOU CAN'T AND YOU WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO DO IT PERIOD. jedi
Until you can do this, you will be ignored as anyone constantly babbling silliness should be.
Peace,
Ayman
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I think the following verse demonstrate that years are solars, this can be a key argument in favour of Ayman's theory.
1247 (yusuf ali)
Joseph said "For seven years shall ye diligently sow as is your wont and the harvests that ye reap ye shall leave them in the ear except a little, of which ye shall eat.This verse definitly links years to seasons, therefore in my modest comprehension Ramadan has to be fix.
Peace
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I think the following verse demonstrate that years are solars, this can be a key argument in favour of Ayman's theory.
1247 (yusuf ali)
Joseph said "For seven years shall ye diligently sow as is your wont and the harvests that ye reap ye shall leave them in the ear except a little, of which ye shall eat.This verse definitly links years to seasons, therefore in my modest comprehension Ramadan has to be fix.
Peace
So I still have no idea when it should start. ??? ???
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So I still have no idea when it should start. ??? ???
21st August. If your're going to fast, then make sure that you eat and drink a lot on the night before.
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Thank you for your question and a warm welcome to the forum.
There is no such thing as a year with 12 equal months. Even the useless lunar year will have months with 30 days and months with 29 days. So you need to reword your question.
Thanks. To restate historic evidence shows calendar was in place.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PERF_558
Arabic text
Dots and hamzas added; otherwise, spelling uncorrected.
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In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful. This is what `Abdallah,
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Son of Jabir, and his companions-in-arms, have taken as of slaughter sheep at Heracleopolis (Ihnas)
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from a representative of Theodorakios (Tidraq), second son of Apa Kyros (Abu Qir), and from a substitute of Christophoros (Istufur), eldest son of Apa Kyros (Abu Qir), fifty sheep
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as of slaughter and fifteen other sheep. He gave them for slaughter for the crew of his vessels, as well as his cavalry and his breastplated infantry in
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the month of Jumada I in the year twenty-two. Written by Ibn Hadidu.
Grohmann worked out "30 Pharmouthi of the indiction year 1" to be 25th April, 643
If the above is correct then new month calculated 2/3 days after new moon align with event 10 years earlier.
New Moon
1/27/632
25-Feb
26-Mar
25-Apr
24-May Rabi' al-awwal 5/26 - death of prophet (pbuh) 8 June (12 of Rabi? al-Awwal)
23-Jun 4. Rabi' al-thani
23-Jul 5. Jumada al-awwal
21-Aug 6. Jumada al-thani
20-Sep 7. Rajab
19-Oct 8. Sha'aban
17-Nov 9. Ramadan
17-Dec 10. Shawwal
1/15/633 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
14-Feb 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
15-Mar 1. Muharram
14-Apr 2. Safar
13-May 3. Rabi' al-awwal
12-Jun 4. Rabi' al-thani
12-Jul 5. Jumada al-awwal
10-Aug 6. Jumada al-thani
9-Sep 7. Rajab
9-Oct 8. Sha'aban
7-Nov 9. Ramadan
7-Dec 10. Shawwal
1/5/634 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
4-Feb 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
5-Mar 1. Muharram
3-Apr 2. Safar
3-May 3. Rabi' al-awwal
1-Jun 4. Rabi' al-thani
1-Jul 5. Jumada al-awwal
30-Jul 6. Jumada al-thani
29-Aug 7. Rajab
28-Sep 8. Sha'aban
27-Oct 9. Ramadan
26-Nov 10. Shawwal
26-Dec 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
1/24/635 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
23-Feb 1. Muharram
24-Mar 2. Safar
22-Apr 3. Rabi' al-awwal
22-May 4. Rabi' al-thani
20-Jun 5. Jumada al-awwal
19-Jul 6. Jumada al-thani
18-Aug 7. Rajab
17-Sep 8. Sha'aban
17-Oct 9. Ramadan
15-Nov 10. Shawwal
15-Dec 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
1/14/636 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
12-Feb 1. Muharram
13-Mar 2. Safar
11-Apr 3. Rabi' al-awwal
10-May 4. Rabi' al-thani
9-Jun 5. Jumada al-awwal
8-Jul 6. Jumada al-thani
6-Aug 7. Rajab
5-Sep 8. Sha'aban
5-Oct 9. Ramadan
3-Nov 10. Shawwal
3-Dec 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
1/2/637 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
1-Feb 1. Muharram
2-Mar 2. Safar
1-Apr 3. Rabi' al-awwal
30-Apr 4. Rabi' al-thani
29-May 5. Jumada al-awwal
28-Jun 6. Jumada al-thani
27-Jul 7. Rajab
25-Aug 8. Sha'aban
24-Sep 9. Ramadan
23-Oct 10. Shawwal
22-Nov 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
22-Dec 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
1/21/638 1. Muharram
19-Feb 2. Safar
21-Mar 3. Rabi' al-awwal
20-Apr 4. Rabi' al-thani
19-May 5. Jumada al-awwal
17-Jun 6. Jumada al-thani
17-Jul 7. Rajab
15-Aug 8. Sha'aban
13-Sep 9. Ramadan
13-Oct 10. Shawwal
11-Nov 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
11-Dec 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
1/10/639 1. Muharram
8-Feb 2. Safar
10-Mar 3. Rabi' al-awwal
9-Apr 4. Rabi' al-thani
8-May 5. Jumada al-awwal
7-Jun 6. Jumada al-thani
6-Jul 7. Rajab
5-Aug 8. Sha'aban
3-Sep 9. Ramadan
2-Oct 10. Shawwal
1-Nov 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
30-Nov 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
30-Dec 1. Muharram
1/28/640 2. Safar
27-Feb 3. Rabi' al-awwal
28-Mar 4. Rabi' al-thani
27-Apr 5. Jumada al-awwal
26-May 6. Jumada al-thani
25-Jun 7. Rajab
24-Jul 8. Sha'aban
23-Aug 9. Ramadan
21-Sep 10. Shawwal
20-Oct 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
19-Nov 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
18-Dec 1. Muharram
1/17/641 2. Safar
15-Feb 3. Rabi' al-awwal
17-Mar 4. Rabi' al-thani
16-Apr 5. Jumada al-awwal
15-May 6. Jumada al-thani
14-Jun 7. Rajab
13-Jul 8. Sha'aban
12-Aug 9. Ramadan
11-Sep 10. Shawwal
10-Oct 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
8-Nov 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
8-Dec 1. Muharram
1/6/642 2. Safar
5-Feb 3. Rabi' al-awwal
6-Mar 4. Rabi' al-thani
5-Apr 5. Jumada al-awwal
4-May 6. Jumada al-thani
3-Jun 7. Rajab
3-Jul 8. Sha'aban
1-Aug 9. Ramadan
31-Aug 10. Shawwal
29-Sep 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
29-Oct 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
28-Nov 1. Muharram
27-Dec 2. Safar
1/25/643 3. Rabi' al-awwal
24-Feb 4. Rabi' al-thani
25-Mar Jumada al-awwal begins 3/27
24-Apr April 25 PERF 558There is no need to forge above dates or the receipt of sheep in two languages.
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Who uses a Solar calender? I thought the gregorian, "Islamic", and lunar calenders were used in Arabic. O0
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Peace brothers and sisters
I hope that people in UK are watching the Debate on Moon sighting on Islamic channel. It seems they are all over the place on which day to start the fast. It seems like the birth of the new moon is the most difficult thing to sight. A logical argument is that why dont we use mathematical calculations to take over the sighting my eye. Seems logical but the panel is very split on this. Its very confusing and I am not sure that all sunni's are clear or able to agree on a start date. Mathematical calculations show that it is not possible to view the birth of the moon on Thursday or Friday night as the sun will obscure the view. There is a small window to sight it on Saturday, so fasting could start on saturday or sunday and I bet not all muslims will start on the same day, as a result eid wont be on the same day, how confusing is that. I really don't think the Umma is united which is a shame. I say this because If I start fasting according to my local mosque on saturday some of my friends might start earlier or later so we wont be able to celebrate Eid together. I remember a while back I sent a friend of mine a text to say Eid mubarak and he said eid is tomorrow, makes me feel if I followed the wrong advice. Oh well the debate goes on and unity goes begin.
Peace
Hope
Salaam Hope
I am sorry I do not watch Islam TV or any other money making channel, nor do I attend any such Mosque ( still searching for a Mosque built on Tawqa). Quibbles among so called Islamic scholars is nothing new and must not become a source of despair for Muslims as Satan uses such tactics to divert us from the right path
You are worried about a possible delay in fasting for a day of two; according to Ayman?s system fasting is months apart according to the regions. please study this thread http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.720
Quote from Nun de plume on October 16, 2008, 051600 AM
Also, which summaer months, North or South America ? Chicago or Buenos Aires?
Reply from Ayman
It is the summer season where young animals need protection. Obviously, the summer solstice and therefore the scorching full-moon is different in the northern and southern hemispheres.....everyone having their own seasonal Leilat ul Qadrpeace
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Salam,
Can you answer these questions ?
- When the authorities decide start month using new moon can you verify it by yourself?
- When the authorities decide start month using full moon can you verify it by yourself?
I have read this thread and I think you are the one who miss the big picture.... Remember, some of tradisionalist insist that they MUST SPOT THE NEW MOON BEFORE BEGIN THE MONTH... and just like hope4 wrote.... "the Debate on Moon sighting".. Use your reason, can the conclusion of this debate minimize if we are using Full Moon instead of New Moon?
Salaam
Your questions are answered in detail in this link http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg213934#msg213934
Since we are suppose to do our own research and not follow others blindly I would suggest you study all posts by EId , Pseudo, Nun and Rex in response to Ayman?s claim.
peace -
Peace Guest,
Wow! You found a major contradiction in my understanding & . I guess I can forget about trying to find the timing according to the great reading and I should just follow the timing ordained by Umar, the rightly guided companion of the prophet. I will go back to be Sunni again because as Farida said I can't understand the Quran better than the prophet whose understanding she gets from the holy Sunna and Tafsir of Ibn Kathir. But wait, it's a miracle, o here are the exact dates without using any human calendar
This year the night of the fast was The night of the first full-moon after the summer solstice
Next year the night of the fast will be The night of the first full-moon after the summer solstice
The year after the night of the fast will be The night of the first full-moon after the summer solstice
Etc. Etc. Etc.There. People can know exactly when to start fasting with no manmade months names and no arbitrary months order and no dependencies on when the calendar was made to start by some guy.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace,
How did you work that out? Do we have any indication in the Quran as to how? since we do know how to work out the time for dawn and night , but I can't see anywhere how to work out the summer solstice
However the summer solstice has been known for millenniae so how was the exact time of the Solstice calculated?
Well the Time Team research shows that in early Bronze Age people painstakingly built the Stone Henge to calculate the longest and shortest day of the year... a man made monument unless you thinks some god placed Stone Henge there for you to calculate the Summer Solstice. (A pagan belief)
For the latest Winter Solistices Discovery at Baltray a monument build by ancient civilization, legend and folklore check this link; http//www.mythicalireland.com/ancientsites/baltray/solstice.html
peace -
I think the following verse demonstrate that years are solars, this can be a key argument in favour of Ayman's theory.
1247 (yusuf ali)
Joseph said "For seven years shall ye diligently sow as is your wont and the harvests that ye reap ye shall leave them in the ear except a little, of which ye shall eat.This verse definitly links years to seasons, therefore in my modest comprehension Ramadan has to be fix.
Peace
Salaam herbman
Yes this verse talks of Sineen which as I understand it is the measurement of a year linked to the seasons and relating to harvesting and draught see also 7130
So far I have noticed that the term Sineen is a seasonal year (soli-lunar), when both the moon and the sun are taken to calculate the year as in 105
The other world is AAam which is used in other instances like in surah 928 related to the Sacred Mosque etc 928
In one place both terms, related to years, is used 2914
I think we need to work out these two types of years used to finally understand the count of years.
peace -
2185 The Shahr Ramadan, in which the Quran was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Therefore, those of you who witness the shahr shall fast therein. Whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and glorify God because He has guided you, that you may be thankful.
We are asked to fast IN "Shahr Ramadan" (the month of Ramadan). You (Ayman) say that "shahr" means "full-moon", but HOW CAN YOU FAST IN A FULL-MOON?!
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Peace Eid/Pseudo/Nun/Rex,
24-May Rabi' al-awwal 5/26 - death of prophet (pbuh) 8 June (12 of Rabi? al-Awwal)
23-Jun 4. Rabi' al-thaniHow do you know that the prophet died on 12 of Rabi' Al-Awwal and not 10 of Rabi' Al-Thani or even in a different year?
You are following nothing but conjecture based on circular arguments.
Peace,
Ayman
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Salaam Hope
I am sorry I do not watch Islam TV or any other money making channel, nor do I attend any such Mosque ( still searching for a Mosque built on Tawqa).
Salams, hope i did the quote correctly, i'm a bit new to this.
I found this online mosque, which is a great idea for us to be able to pray together instead of being a Billy No Mates on the day of the Congregational Prayer. I'm talking about Jum'aah of course! o)
Here is the online mosque They do a Khutbah and you can play the audio file or read it.http//www.horizonsmosque.webs.com/
Salams and peace o)
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Peace everyone,
How to determine the solstice is clearly described in 1712
17.12. We have made the night and the day as two signs the sign of the night We have obscured, while the sign of the day we have made visible so that you may seek favors from your Lord, and so that you may know the number of years and the calculation, and We have explained all things in detail.
How can you determine the number of years using the ?night and the day?? The ONLY way to use the night and the day to determine the number of years is to count the interval between shortest/longest day and the shortest/longest night, in other words the interval between either the summer solstices or winter solstices. So the sign in 1712 leaves absolutely no doubt that the year is primarily solar and tells us exactly how to know the year.
As for hypocrites who claim that using the sun for timing is "pagan", I would suggest that they act accordingly and sleep and work at random arbitrary times during the day and stop following the seasons and not take a summer vacation ot plant crops etc. etc. and should just follow the completely useless and arbitrary manmade lunar calendar that is 100% dependent on the manmade order of the months and when was year 0 made to start by some guy.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Progressive1993,
2185 The Shahr Ramadan, in which the Quran was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Therefore, those of you who witness witnessed the shahr shall fast therein. Whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and glorify God because He has guided you, that you may be thankful.
We are asked to fast IN "Shahr Ramadan" (the month of Ramadan). You (Ayman) say that "shahr" means "full-moon", but HOW CAN YOU FAST IN A FULL-MOON?!This has already been discussed numerous times on this thread. You are providing a false translation. The verb is in the perfect past tense so it should be witnessed. How can you fast after you witnessed a month? This means that you can only fast after the month is over. So clearly and logically, 2185 is talking about witnessing an EVENT that triggers the fast and not a month.
Peace,
Ayman
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Salams, hope i did the quote correctly, i'm a bit new to this.
I found this online mosque, which is a great idea for us to be able to pray together instead of being a Billy No Mates on the day of the Congregational Prayer. I'm talking about Jum'aah of course! )
Here is the online mosque They do a Khutbah and you can play the audio file or read it.http//www.horizonsmosque.webs.com/
Salams and peace )
Also relevant http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598320.0
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Peace Ayman,
Peace Progressive1993,
This has already been discussed numerous times on this thread. You are providing a false translation. The verb is in the perfect past tense so it should be witnessed. How can you fast after you witnessed a month? This means that you can only fast after the month is over. So clearly and logically, 2185 is talking about witnessing an EVENT that triggers the fast and not a month.
Peace,
Ayman
This doesn't change much, does it? HOW CAN YOU FAST IN the so-called "moon of scorching heat"?! Please dont try to avoid this question again, which is, btw, obvious refutation of your claim.
Concerning the past tense thing...
Many, many... phrases in the Quran are in past tense, such as the splitting of the moon and God speaking with Jesus on J-day, although both, looking at it from Muhammad's time, are in the future - how do you explain that?
The thing is that the past tense signifies certainty. God knows everything and he was certain that the moon was going to be split, so he made the phrase it past tense.
The usage of the past tense in 2185 can also signify that people already witnessed the moon before the revelation of the Quran - remember that fasting was practiced before the revelation of the Quran.
From submission.org/fasting-bible.html
Jeremiah 366. "Therefore go thou, and read in the roll, which thou hast written from my mouth, the words of the Lord in the ears of the people in the Lord's house upon the fasting day and also thou shalt read them in the ears of all Judah that come out of their cities." Here we find a definite practice of fasting. The following verses will show that this is not just a day of fasting, but precisely a month. More detail on this day of fasting is given in verse nine "And it came to pass in the fifth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, in the ninth month, that they proclaimed a fast before the Lord to all the people in Jerusalem, and to all the people that came from the cities of Judah unto Jerusalem." This is not a special fast proclaimed by a religious ruler, because this particular king was wicked. Nevertheless, he did follow the formality of what was practiced the month of fasting. The time given for this fasting is stated to be the ninth month.
The season of the fast in this particular year, thought by many scholars to be 604 B.C., is stated to be in the winter. Jeremiah 3622, "Now the king sat in the winter house in the ninth month and there was a fire on the hearth burning before him." Now the present Jewish calendar adds a thirteenth month from time to time to match the solar year, so that the ninth month of the civil year (used in the dates of kings' reigns) falls in May or June, summer in Palestine. If we project the lunar calendar presently used in the Middle East back in history, we find that the ninth month falls in November of the year 604 B.C. It appears that during Bible times a purely lunar calendar was used, and the ninth month was a month of fasting.
Indeed, God did not lie when he said
2183 O you who acknowledge, fasting is decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you that perhaps you may be righteous/aware.
Ayman, do you have any evidence of monotheists having fasted after witnessing the "moon of scorching heat"?? Do you have ANY evidence? I showed you my evidence for the real Ramadan - not the fabricated, one-third "Ramadan" of yours. Are you still going to reject the real Ramadan, and not fast for a full month - not just your lousy 10 days?
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Peace everyone,
How to determine the solstice is clearly described in 1712
17.12. We have made the night and the day as two signs the sign of the night We have obscured, while the sign of the day we have made visible so that you may seek favors from your Lord, and so that you may know the number of years and the calculation, and We have explained all things in detail.
How can you determine the number of years using the ?night and the day?? The ONLY way to use the night and the day to determine the number of years is to count the interval between shortest/longest day and the shortest/longest night, in other words the interval between either the summer solstices or winter solstices. So the sign in 1712 leaves absolutely no doubt that the year is primarily solar and tells us exactly how to know the year.
As for hypocrites who claim that using the sun for timing is "pagan", I would suggest that they act accordingly and sleep and work at random arbitrary times during the day and stop following the seasons and not take a summer vacation ot plant crops etc. etc. and should just follow the completely useless and arbitrary manmade lunar calendar that is 100% dependent on the manmade order of the months and when was year 0 made to start by some guy.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace
1712 is clearly about Sineen a term used mainly in relation to draught and harvesting, here seeking bounty during the day and calculating
Here you may know the number of years and the calculation for harvesting (as I understand a year made up of four season) but for the month,full moon cycle (Shahar)from one cresent to the next is to be taken into consideration. Nothing less nothing more just twelve months in God's record, no skipping or adding 13th No adjustment ,937.......in order to adjust the number of months forbidden by Allah and make such forbidden ones lawful .......Call it what ever you want to but just twelve moon cycle.
936 The count of the months with God is twelve months in God's record the day He created the heavens and the Earth; four of them are restricted. This is the correct system; so do not wrong yourselves in them; and fight those who set up partners collectively as they fight you collectively. And know that God is with the righteous.
peace -
Peace Progressive1993,
This doesn't change much, does it? HOW CAN YOU FAST IN the so-called "moon of scorching heat"?! Please dont try to avoid this question again, which is, btw, obvious refutation of your claim.
First of all where does the word "in" (Arabic "fi" occurs in the passage. Please underline it in the Arabic. You are again making a false claim. I already answered many times on this thread the question about how to fast the schorching full moon so try to read. Here it is one more time for you
How to fast the scorching full-moon is given in 2184-187. We are told to fast from food and drink and sexual activities from daybreak until night (which starts at sunset) the complete count of a few days (ten days).
Concerning the past tense thing...
Many, many... phrases in the Quran are in past tense, such as the splitting of the moon and God speaking with Jesus on J-day, although both, looking at it from Muhammad's time, are in the future - how do you explain that?
The thing is that the past tense signifies certainty. God knows everything and he was certain that the moon was going to be split, so he made the phrase it past tense.While the god knows the future, this is a command for humans. Are you saying that humans also know everything about the future? "Shahid"/"witnessed" is in the perfect past tense but "yasum"/"fast" is in the present tense.
The usage of the past tense in 2185 can also signify that people already witnessed the moon before the revelation of the Quran - remember that fasting was practiced before the revelation of the Quran.
Here your contradictions are exposed. You are forced to change your words from "month" to "moon" because you know that "witnessed a month" is illogical nonsense and it is impossible to witness a month and then fast in it.
Also, your idea is pure nonsense because it implies that "whoever witnessed the month before revelation shall go back in time and fast it".
Peace,
Ayman