Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Peace Imraan,
Ramaddan appears only once in the Quran as far as I know. You therefore have no reference within the quran by which you can verify your interpretation. Therefore it could be the name of the month just as much as it could be meant scorching heat. So there is no definitive conclusion that can be reached through tasreef (as opposed to tafseer).
A sign in verse 981 indicates that the time of a particularly big fight that the hypocrites were fearful from was a hot time of the year. Shortly afterwards, 986 talks about a chapter descending/"inzal" at that time. So we can at least learn that "ramadan" was a hot time of the year.
On the other hand, how do you know that the month that sectarians call Ramadan is the one talked about in the great reading? Who decided that Ramadan ought to be the 9th month? Who decided to rearrange the restricted "shahr" in the sectarian calendar so that they would not be consecutive?
You are putting your faith in the Sectarians.
As for witnessing the month or moon, it really doesn't matter which of the two you use in the quran as they are both acceptable. The context would dictate the choice. There is no reason why "shahr" cannot be used as the month of Ramaddan in the beginning of the verse & the moon in the middle of the verse. Both are consistent with quranic usage. Your question is therefore irrelevant to the discussion.
So you admit that "shahr" can only mean moon in the middle of the verse. Which phase of the moon? Also, if the single meaning of "full-moon" fits everywhere then why try to force another inconsistent meaning?
We run into the same problems with salat & sadaqaat in the quran. That is that there are no9 contradictions in quran, only apparent contradictions due to a lack of investigation. By that I mean investigation within the quran because it explains itself through the process of tasreef (as opposed to tafseer).
There is no problem with "salat" and "sadaqat".
You have avoided the issue I brought up regarding stages of development.
I have not avoided it. The great reading has been revealed at different times and is not arranged chronologically. Had what has been revealed first or next been important then the god would have arranged the entire great reading in chronological order. So your interpretation based on chronology has no basis in the great reading and is 100% based on conjecture about what was revealed first and what was revealed next. How do you know for certain that 2185 was not revelealed before 2183-184? Or how do you know that they were not revealed at the same time? You don't.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Herbman,
Has anyone wonder why God will mention only one month up to 12?
Same for the days, why would God mention only one day? Everyone here seems to agree yawm jumu'a doesnt mean Friday.
God has mentionned 2 salat, so we pray 2 salat, not 5, because they are simply not mentionned.So everyone agrees that sectarians took the common noun "jumu'a" and turned it into the meaningless proper name of their arbitrary "holy" day of the week. So we know for sure that this is their way of lying. They simply did the same with "ramadan". This is as expected and shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.
Peace,
Ayman
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So you admit that "shahr" can only mean moon in the middle of the verse. Which phase of the moon? Also, if the single meaning of "full-moon" fits everywhere then why try to force another inconsistent meaning?
Peace,
Ayman
Peace
Term "full moon" is not used in Arabic or even Urdu language what you call full moon is often referred to as "the moon of the 14th" in Urdu. However full moon cycle from one crescent to another can be seen as full moon/month.
peace -
Peace herbman
Has anyone wonder why God will mention only one month up to 12?
Same for the days, why would God mention only one day? Everyone here seems to agree yawm jumu'a doesnt mean Friday.
God has mentionned 2 salat, so we pray 2 salat, not 5, because they are simply not mentionned.As I mentioned in an earlier post, whether it is a month or not, whether it is the name of a month or not, makes no difference.
The mis understanding regarding the 2,3 or 5 salat is also caused by ignoring the stages of development of communities. There has not been any number fixed to how much salat is commanded. The times of salat as they appear in the quran cover an extensive period, which one cannot uphold by interpreting these times as time that should be spent in salat (depending on your understanding of salat). This is, however off topic. I would be willing to discuss this in the appropriate forum if you are.
Imraan
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Peace Imraan,
A sign in verse 981 indicates that the time of a particularly big fight that the hypocrites were fearful from was a hot time of the year. Shortly afterwards, 986 talks about a chapter descending/"inzal" at that time. So we can at least learn that "ramadan" was a hot time of the year.
Peace,
Ayman
I remember this discussion last yeear Quote from belalhammad link=topic=9188.msg177136#msg177136 check it here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.240Re Hot/"ramadan" Answer
? Reply #250 on September 08, 2008, 110005 PM ? Quote
Peace,
Let me ask you Question; If Rammadan is the First rectricted month, and it Falls in June 21st; and if the end of the 4 restricted is about October 21, according to Ayman; then, Does verse 9-81 proves that Ayman theory is Wrong?The Truth is, Rammadan had to be 4 months before Summer time.
Peace
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Ramadan is the month in which the Quran was revealed, thats what makes it so special and holy. And thats what it means to us. The months on the "submission" calender start when the moon is first visible. So whoever " witnesses" the month shall fast it. There is a night in the month of ramadan called " the night of decree." This night is a speacial night. But I dont know which particular night it is. I guess this night was/or is when the decree is or was.... peace
Ayman stop it. Im on your head. Stop sinning or your will be punished. police
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Ramadan is the month in which the Quran was revealed, thats what makes it so special and holy. And thats what it means to us. The months on the "submission" calender start when the moon is first visible. So whoever " witnesses" the month shall fast it. There is a night in the month of ramadan called " the night of decree." This night is a speacial night. But I dont know which particular night it is. I guess this night was/or is when the decree is or was.... peace
Ayman stop it. Im on your head. Stop sinning or your will be punished. police
Peace you are becoming sunni day by day please dont scare him by muscle laugh
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Peace Ayman
A sign in verse 981 indicates that the time of a particularly big fight that the hypocrites were fearful from was a hot time of the year. Shortly afterwards, 986 talks about a chapter descending/"inzal" at that time. So we can at least learn that "ramadan" was a hot time of the year.
This is what I refer to as grasping at straws. Anyway, it doesn't matter whether or not it was hot. My contention is that there is no contradiction in 2185 regardless of which interpretation you use.
On the other hand, how do you know that the month that sectarians call Ramadan is the one talked about in the great reading? Who decided that Ramadan ought to be the 9th month? Who decided to rearrange the restricted "shahr" in the sectarian calendar so that they would not be consecutive?
Again it is irrelevant in this discussion because there is no contradiction regardless of the interpretive position taken.
You are putting your faith in the Sectarians.
My faith is based on the investigation I do through accepting that the quran explains itself. You are creating sectarianism through insistence of the absolute validity of your opinion. It is only your opinion & since you cannot disprove the alternate view it cannot be considered absolute.
So you admit that "shahr" can only mean moon in the middle of the verse. Which phase of the moon? Also, if the single meaning of "full-moon" fits everywhere then why try to force another inconsistent meaning?
Sure, but regardless of your insistence, there is still no contradiction.
There is no problem with "salat" and "sadaqat".
There are no contradictions, just as there are none in the verses we are discussing. There are, however what may appear to be contradictions.
In relation to sadaqat, it is shown as both voluntary & compulsory in the quran. Which is it?
In relation to the times of salat, people have been debating whether it is 2, 3 or 5. None of these are mentioned in the quran. In 11114 & 1778 a large span of time is mentioned for the salat. In 2458 there seem to be 2 specific salats mentioned. These appear to present as different timings for salat.
I have not avoided it. The great reading has been revealed at different times and is not arranged chronologically. Had what has been revealed first or next been important then the god would have arranged the entire great reading in chronological order. So your interpretation based on chronology has no basis in the great reading and is 100% based on conjecture about what was revealed first and what was revealed next. How do you know for certain that 2185 was not revelealed before 2183-184? Or how do you know that they were not revealed at the same time? You don't.
It is not about a linear chronology, but the different stages of human & communal development. It is not conjecture, but the use of reason that points to the importance of these stages in determining the meaning & validity of verses in the context of the people applying them. It is obvious that acclimatising to something is done before going into something full swing. That is why it is clear that 2184 was revealed before 2185. This is not conjecture, but logic, reason & common sense.
Imraan
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Peace Brother Ayman and Sister Farida
All this talk of tropical islands and coconuts is giving me cravings for a Bounty! "Ah... the taste of paradise....!" http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bounty_%28chocolate_bar%29
Let's say they agree to call it ramadan, for the sake of argument, regardless of when it is that they wake up, because their intention is good, they just want to fast to please Allah s w t...
Picture this...They have a Qur'an (original, arabic, no translations), it survived the ship wreck, but they do not have access to internet/translations/ group discussions on the forums or hadith books. Can they still study the Qur'an? None of them speaks or reads Arabic.
and
scenario 1. They find a wild boar. Can they eat it to break their fast? In this scenario, there is no other meat on the island.
scenario 2. if they find a sheep, can they eat it to break their fast?If they were desperate for food, they wouldn't be fasting anyway, right??
Wherever you are in the world, and whatever your beliefs regarding the start date for the holy time of year and fasting, however long you may be fasting for, as long as it is for the correct intention of it being for Allah Alone, I wish you much success and may you be showered with the blessings, peace and guidance of Allah s.w.t. always inshAllah. May He be constantly Glorified.
Peace group
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Peace Brother Ayman and Sister Farida
All this talk of tropical islands and coconuts is giving me cravings for a Bounty! "Ah... the taste of paradise....!" http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bounty_%28chocolate_bar%29
Let's say they agree to call it ramadan, for the sake of argument, regardless of when it is that they wake up, because their intention is good, they just want to fast to please Allah s w t...
Picture this...They have a Qur'an (original, arabic, no translations), it survived the ship wreck, but they do not have access to internet/translations/ group discussions on the forums or hadith books. Can they still study the Qur'an? None of them speaks or reads Arabic.
Wherever you are in the world, and whatever your beliefs regarding the start date for the holy time of year and fasting, however long you may be fasting for, as long as it is for the correct intention of it being for Allah Alone, I wish you much success and may you be showered with the blessings, peace and guidance of Allah s.w.t. always inshAllah. May He be constantly Glorified.
Peace group
handshake group
Best wishes and regards -
scenario 1. They find a wild boar. Can they eat it to break their fast? In this scenario, there is no other meat on the island.
scenario 2. if they find a sheep, can they eat it to break their fast?If they were desperate for food, they wouldn't be fasting anyway, right??
If there was no food available so they are already on fast
But if you can find a sheep then no need to eat a pig eat -
Peace Imraan,
My faith is based on the investigation I do through accepting that the quran explains itself. You are creating sectarianism through insistence of the absolute validity of your opinion. It is only your opinion & since you cannot disprove the alternate view it cannot be considered absolute.
If you are truthful then prove from your investigation of the great reading that Ramadan is the 9th month of a lunar calendar in which the year zero is the year of the supposed Hijra and month 0 is Safar and where months begin with the new moon crescent. If you can do it then we will know that you are truthful. I know you can't do it and you will evade because you are in reality blindly following sectarians but as usual it takes courage to admit the truth.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace ayman
Peace Imraan,
If you are truthful then prove from your investigation of the great reading that Ramadan is the 9th month of a lunar calendar in which the year zero is the year of the supposed Hijra and month 0 is Safar and where months begin with the new moon crescent. If you can do it then we will know that you are truthful. I know you can't do it and you will evade because you are in reality blindly following sectarians but as usual it takes courage to admit the truth.
Peace,
Ayman
I'm not sure why you seem to be insisting that my position is that Ramaddan can be absolutely defined as the 9th month. I am saying that you are presenting your view as the absolute even though you can't refute the alternate view from the quran.
My position is that it does not matter whether or not you see Ramaddan as the 9th month or not, there still is no contradiction in the quran. Any "apparent contradictions" are a product of disregarding the fact that the quran provides information/directives/laws/advices, etc. for communities at different stages of their development. Just as you cannot expect a preschooler to grasp concepts/accept responsibilities/abide by laws the way a post graduate student can, communities need to arrive at the destination that the quran is leading us to in stages.
I am saying that the sectarians believe that their view is the only truth according to the quran. Therefore when you present your view as absolute while you cannot disprove the opposing view, you may be acting in this manner & should maybe pause & reflect. Sometimes when we are in the thick of things we lose sight of many things that would otherwise be obvious to us.
Imraan
Imraan
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Dear all, Peace,
I did some research on 01/01/01 AH, with the classical Hijri/Gregorian date convertor which you can find here http//www.islamicfinder.org/dateConversion.php?mode=hij-ger&day=1&month=1&year=1&date_result=1
result is Friday 16 July 622 C.Esearching summer solstice for that year 622
result 20 Jun
http//www.timeanddate.com/calendar/seasons.html?year=600&n=0searching the new moon for that year 622 after summer solstice
first new moon is 14 july
http//www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html?year=622&n=0By this we can conclude the start of the new hijri calendar started exactly 2 days after new moon (when new moon was visible=mashud) after the summer solstice (hot month/Ramadan).
That's strange, isn't it?
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bravo After one full year thay come up with a man made deivice to work out the solstice determination. hail
rotfl
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@ ayman
I will give a more detailed/long er response this time. Last time I had no time at all.
About the whole "fasting IN 'the moon"..2185 Shahru ramadana allatheeonzila feehi alqur-anu hudan...
So I guess according to you, the Quran was sent down IN the moon.. fair enough.
Also.. please provide evidence for monotheists having practiced fasting during the time that you fast, as opposed to how it is told in the Bible and mandated in the Quran.
2183 O you who acknowledge, fasting is decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you that perhaps you may be righteous/aware/guard yourself.
I showed you my evidence from the Bible - Ramadan is the 9th month of the lunar calendar and Muslims (those who truly submit to God) are to fast in it.
Peace,
and have a blessed Ramadan peace -
Salaam,
I feel a need to carry forward scenario in my post ? Reply #1089 on Yesterday at 013602 PM ?
One day people living near the Island saw a teen age boy sailing to their land claiming that he comes from the nearby Island. The story made big headlines and all the world media wanted to cover his story.
Hounded by the reporters the boy felt very scared but he was on a mission to find the truth for himself so he decided to answer their questions.
Someone asked, how old are you? and the boy said I am not sure as my parents do not agree on my age..he produced from his sack two crescents marked 2nd hj with a big mark in the middle of the second crescent saying Birth of the son of Abdullah and then he says but according to my mother when I was born she had to skip that moon so I was born when she skipped thirteen ?round moon? of the summer solstice calculations.All the reporters were really puzzled they asked do you know what is the religion of your parents?
Boy My mother calls my father Sunni but my father says he is just Muslim.
elektro the crowd what you mean Muslims .....the ter rorrr...ist .
Boy confused rowed? boat? yes its me bravo
Everyone confused rotflOne middle eastern reports inquired ! any idea when did your parents arrive on that Island?
Boy According to my father it was exactly 16 Ramadan back
What you mean your parents are the one who disappear from the face of this earth around 15 years back?
-[May be I am not sure as my father calls his current time in the Island as year 16 hijri.WHAT DO YOU MEAN!!! yuck Middle eastern reporter shouted your father thinks he is the prophet that he counts his migration as hijri and ! when does Ramadan falls in your hijri ???
BOY It started two days ago but my parents were arguing over it so want to find the truth myself. According to my father?s calculation it?s the 12th moon . He starts his new count after every Ramdan as he only remembers Ramadan ended when he arrived there. wow
Middle Eastern Reporter What do you mean Last moon it is actually is the 9th month according to hadith >(
Boy & I have never heard my father talk of anyone called Hedith he only mentioned that the system was established by the prophet Ibrahim and finally completed by Mohammad and who delivered word of God called the Quran to us. hail
The crowed confused whatever yeahBoy When does Ramadan start in your world?
Middle Eastern man yes some started day before yesterday others are starting today and some will start tomorrow when they see the new moon of this month.
Boy Well then my father is not wrong yay
Middle Eastern Reporter NO! >( he is not following real ?Hijri? calendar he has made up his own year of migration. tempt
brickwall arista from the crowd shouted but The fact is, Nabi definitely not using Hijrah Calendar...
angel Rami raised his hand and added The truth is that there is NO calendar outlined in the Quran. The Quran talks to people who know the calendar already.
The crowd. yes ??? whatever..what does he know he is a Jew anyway ignoreBoy ;D My father too says that Ramdan was known to people and has continued through the lunar cycle until this day.
Rev.John tried to put his word in ! it was always Lunar calendar but later it?s been changed bbb... -X
hypno You Rev don?t tell us about your views shouted Americans muscle you are condemned to hell as you are rejected Jesus as the saviour >D
A western man police looks at the boy suspiciously and asks him to hand over his crescents and the sun dial
Boy ( look please if you take the crescents away I can start my count from the next moon but if you take this other object away which belongs to my mother?s tribe then I will have to wait for full one year to make a new one. '(
Middle Eastern Reporter rotfl What nonsense, there are thousands of dials here in our land we call is sundial and it was a Muslim who invention it back in 8th hijri to determine Qibla direction yes
hmm A Swedish reporter interrupted this was first invented by the Vikings who introduced it to Muslims when they ventured toward Muslims civilizations. jedi
Boy giveup quietly slipped out of the crowed and sailed back to his father Your Ramadan cucle has been maintained by the grace of God. hail
CNN Breaking news FBI has have discover a new terrorist cell in remote Island of ....... handshake