Hot/"ramadan" Answer
-
Peace Hope4,
Sometime ago, I summerized the various points of view on this issue here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg177608#msg177608
I think that those who experience confusion might be taking info too fast and not seeing how everything is connected in the big picture.
If you notice, those who promote the traditional timing are the same folks who promote Mecca and its pagan shrines and rituals. Those folks have the bigger issue of the only unforgivable sin of idolatry to worry about and timing should not be the highest priority issue for them anyway.
Unlike the traditional understanding in which everything is disconnected, so that for example the arbitrary timing has nothing special to do with the mindless pagan rituals that they call Hajj, the proper understanding connects all those issues.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace,
All of us dont know the traditional timing, so mayby you should spend alittle time on explaining it. And everyone who has read the great reading does not know that the so-called traditional point of view has zero support in Quran. The new era was not made to start according to a different marker. The begining of the new era was not set to 3 years earlier. And right now, not only are sectarians are fasting a completly random month ( or whole month), but monothests are fasting it also. And according to 1712, (1) night and (2) day are two signs; so that you may know the number of years and the count ( not (1) day and (2) night as you put it. And the year being solar is not a fact, it is only some therom of yours. 1712 is not enuff to prove the year is solar exspeasially when 1712 doesnt go with your saying because you turned the words around and you make it as there was the sign of day first and then came the sign of night when 1712 says otherwise. And the count is not already known as 30 or 29 days. Nor is it known as 3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0r 10 days using your false interpretation of 2184 or a month. And the night of decree does not fall in the other months other than ramadan, just like days 29-31 dont fall in the month febuary.
This is what has prompted you to search for a better point of view or ( seperate) based on the Quran. It seems like you the only one creatin a " sectary Ramadan." To God we all will be gathered. This is a fact that only the most ignorant and dogmatic would dispute. According to 2185 the Quran was descended sometime in the month of ramadan. 871 says it was sent down in the night of decree. Putting 2185 and 971 together we can conclude that the night of decree is in the month of ramadan. What month was it and what day/or night was it the quran came down is the questions and answers. According to 2185 the abtenence is for the entire month of ramadan. As long as it is ramadan we are to be fasting.
Gotta go, later. jedi peace
-
Peace all
As it turns out, the symbol I thought was for full moon on my calendar is not the symbol for full moon, it is the symbol for new moon! How bizarre, confusing confused and embarrasing! The full moon was on 6th August.
Also here is a link to the summer solstice dates http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solstice
And the Full Moon Dates http//www.ewpnet.com/full-moon.htm
I have just been trying to work out how Ayman worked out about his suggestion that the fast should have been on the 7th July (first full moon after the summer solstice which was 21 June)
I get that now, but Ayman, how come you refer to it being 10 days and not 30 days? You mentioned a "few" days and then after it, in brackets, you put 10 days.
Thanks
Peace
-
Peace UmAlawi,
I get that now, but Ayman, how come you refer to it being 10 days and not 30 days? You mentioned a "few" days and then after it, in brackets, you put 10 days.
According to 2184, the fast is for a few (3-10) days ("ayyam ma3doodat". We are then told in 2185 to complete the count. The complete count of a few (3-10) is 10. This is further confirmed by the fact that the term "complete 10" used in 2196. Also, 2827 talks about completing 10. Thus, in 2185 the complete count is 10 days.
Peace,
Ayman
-
First of all where does the word "in" (Arabic "fi" occurs in the passage. Please underline it in the Arabic. You are again making a false claim. I already answered many times on this thread the question about how to fast the schorching full moon so try to read. Here it is one more time for you
I know that - doesnt change anything about the timing of Ramadan. What you are saying is irrelevant stuff about HOW to fast - not WHEN to fast.
How to fast the scorching full-moon is given in 2184-187. We are told to fast from food and drink and sexual activities from daybreak until night (which starts at sunset) the complete count of a few days (ten days).
You didnt get my point, again. How can you fast IN the moon?! You can fast IN the MONTH. Have fun fasting IN the MOON.
While the god knows the future, this is a command for humans. Are you saying that humans also know everything about the future? "Shahid"/"witnessed" is in the perfect past tense but "yasum"/"fast" is in the present tense.
You didnt get my example using cross-reference (tasreef) for usage of past-tense in the Quran. If you didnt understand I'll elaborate for you tomorrow again. I have no time now.
Here your contradictions are exposed. You are forced to change your words from "month" to "moon" because you know that "witnessed a month" is illogical nonsense and it is impossible to witness a month and then fast in it.
It was a typo - I meant month. That typo probably made your day...
Also, your idea is pure nonsense because it implies that "whoever witnessed the month before revelation shall go back in time and fast it".
You logic is filled with nonsense, and, of course, you didnt pay attention to my example(s) - how new. I'll elaborate on this tomorrow again - just for you ;D
Peace
and happy Ramadan ;Dpeace
-
Peace Brother Ayman
I don't speak/understand Arabic, so it's difficult for me to know which words mean what, when trying to compare the translations. Does "ma3doodat" in Arabic specifically mean 3-10? Is that a known fact to arabic speaking people or is it something you have deduced from being able to find the same word elsewhere in the Qur'an?
Also, I think I just had a lightbulb moment?! Are you saying that
1.Hajj and Ramadan are not 2 separate things
and
2.the (mis)translation of (full)Moon as Month has made people mistakenly believe that they have to fast for 30 days / a full month instead of the 10 days that is mentioned in the Hajj section?So you are suggesting it's like this If you witness a Summer Solstice, wait for the next full moon, then fast for 10 days and coincide it with the pilgrimage/feast/festival/debate if you can afford it.
?
Thanks
Peace -
Peace UmAlawi,
I don't speak/understand Arabic, so it's difficult for me to know which words mean what, when trying to compare the translations. Does "ma3doodat" in Arabic specifically mean 3-10? Is that a known fact to arabic speaking people or is it something you have deduced from being able to find the same word elsewhere in the Qur'an?
Yes, in Arabic "ma3doodat" means few, while "3adida" means many. This is well known. It is typically used for things that can be counted on the fingers. This is probably where the maximum of 10 came from. As I explained above, the complete count of "ma3doodat" being 10 can also be deduced from other places in the great reading.
Also, I think I just had a lightbulb moment?! Are you saying that
1.Hajj and Ramadan are not 2 separate thingsThey are not completely separate. The first restricted full-moon (the one after the solstice) marks the fast and the next three restricted full-moons mark the feast/"hajj" (four restricted full-moons alltogether). The period for both the fast and easch feast is 10 days, ending when the crescent appears. This is also described in both 3639. We are told that the moon is measured in descending stages ("manazil". 3639 specifically states that the moon is measured in descending stages until it becomes like an old curved sheath (i.e., a crescent). So what shape does the moon descend from in stages until it becomes a crescent? clearly this can only be the full-moon. This is also how the crescents provide the timing for the "hajj" per 2189. It is the timing for ending the "hajj". This is why we are told in 2189 to enter from the front doors (the clear obvious full-moon). However, we can exit from the dim and unobvious back doors (the crescent).
and
2.the (mis)translation of (full)Moon as Month has made people mistakenly believe that they have to fast for 30 days / a full month instead of the 10 days that is mentioned in the Hajj section?Yes. The 10 days for the fast and the feast/"hajj" are consistent and the timing mechanism is the same. Those who advocate the manmade traditional timing on this have completely ignored the god's words and their "hajj" has NOTHING to do with the crescent. It starts on 8th of Dhu Al-Hajjah (not with the crescent) and ends not with the crescent either in complete violation of 2189.
So you are suggesting it's like this If you witness a Summer Solstice, wait for the next full moon, then fast for 10 days and coincide it with the pilgrimage/feast/festival/debate if you can afford it.
You are partially right. It is like this
Wait for the first full-moon after the summer solstice, then fast for 10 days.
Wait for the next full-moon then have a feast where you gather people to witness benefits and eat and feed the poor.
Wait for the next full-moon then have another feast.
Wait for the next full-moon then have another feast.
Alltogether a period marked by four inviolable full-moons where hunting wild lifeis not allowed.Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace everyone,
Following is the data for average monthly temperatures in USA
http//www.met.utah.edu/jhorel/html/wx/climate/maxtemp.html
As everyone can clearly see that although in some places August is slightly hotter than July, in majority of places and overall on an average July is hotter than August. The shahr ramadhan/nearly full-moon of the scorching heat is therefore the one immediately following the summer solstice and not the one in August.
-
Salaam UmAlaw
Let me give you a scenario; let?s say that a group of Ayman?s followers and one ?Sunni ?were travelling in a ship but they get stranded on an Island just like in the movie ?Blue Lagoon?. They have no idea where they are (hemisphere?) they have no modern device to keep track of time all they know is that when they left "the Sunnies" were about to end fasting.
In that Island when ?Sunni? saw the crescent he knew that Ramadan has ended and starts to cut a piece of coconut in the shape of crescent every time he sees the new moon.
The group could work out dawn when they see night light separating from the day and they can also work out night after the sunset .They can also estimate midday when the sun is high and no shadow. All of them can clearly see full moon to keep track of months. Working out the seasons is a bit tricky as it is a tropical place, but they can see the signs of spring and summer and autumn and winter.
After collecting eleven crescents the ?Sunni? starts his fast but for the rest of the group they have to first work out the summer Solstice in order to start fasting. confused
How would they do that?
peace -
Peace,
All of us dont know the traditional timing, so mayby you should spend alittle time on explaining it. And everyone who has read the great reading does not know that the so-called traditional point of view has zero support in Quran. The new era was not made to start according to a different marker. The begining of the new era was not set to 3 years earlier. And right now, not only are sectarians are fasting a completly random month ( or whole month), but monothests are fasting it also. And according to 1712, (1) night and (2) day are two signs; so that you may know the number of years and the count ( not (1) day and (2) night as you put it. And the year being solar is not a fact, it is only some therom of yours. 1712 is not enuff to prove the year is solar exspeasially when 1712 doesnt go with your saying because you turned the words around and you make it as there was the sign of day first and then came the sign of night when 1712 says otherwise. And the count is not already known as 30 or 29 days. Nor is it known as 3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0r 10 days using your false interpretation of 2184 or a month. And the night of decree does not fall in the other months other than ramadan, just like days 29-31 dont fall in the month febuary.
This is what has prompted you to search for a better point of view or ( seperate) based on the Quran. It seems like you the only one creatin a " sectary Ramadan." To God we all will be gathered. This is a fact that only the most ignorant and dogmatic would dispute. According to 2185 the Quran was descended sometime in the month of ramadan. 871 says it was sent down in the night of decree. Putting 2185 and 971 together we can conclude that the night of decree is in the month of ramadan. What month was it and what day/or night was it the quran came down is the questions and answers. According to 2185 the abtenence is for the entire month of ramadan. As long as it is ramadan we are to be fasting.
Gotta go, later. jedi peace
Continuation,
As of right now your false understanding is creating a contradiction. 2185 can be translated as " designated days, certain days, specific days,ect..." And to say a "few" days in 2184 can be misleading. You are creating another problem by implying that the god is giving supeflous usless information in 2185. All we can say is that a Ramadan may last for 29 or 30 days ( as usual) and the count is to be started when the moon is first visible until the next month. These are just some problems with you and your followers understanding and I am sure there are more.
Bring the clear meaning for " Ma3doodat."
What is traditional timing? How does the traditional point of view have zero support in the Quran? How does tradional timing assume that the word "ramadan" in 2185 is meaningless and that the god could have said "bla bla bla," as long as it come after the month shaaban? What do you mean it assums the god could have said bla bla bla? How is traditional timing 100% arbitary? What do you mean " secetarian ramadan?" If the Islamic calender didnt start when the prophet muhamad made pilgramage to medina in 622 AD, the beginning of the Hijra, then when did it start? And who or what is Muharram? What do you mean Muharram was selected? Selected by whom of what? How is the order of the months in this new era completly arbitary? What do you mean day and night are a function of the sun and not of the moon? Is the year solar or luni-solar? And what is luni-solar? And how does traditional timing violate 936? Do you count exactly 12 months/or a year using a solar calender? And how much is 12.3 months again; is that like a year and 3 months, or 12 months and 3 days/weeks/months??? And how does traditional timing creat a contradiction between 2185 and 971? And what does 971 - the similar verse- have to do with us fasting the month of ramadan and obeying 2185-the governing verse? And could you please explain how us knowing that the count is 30 or 29 days make both the so-called "any number" and " completing the count" useless and unesessary information? ???
O0
-
Peace everyone,
Let me give you a scenario; let?s say that a group of Ayman?s followers and one ?Sunni ?were travelling in a ship but they get stranded on an Island just like in the movie ?Blue Lagoon?. They have no idea where they are (hemisphere?)
It does not matter what hemisphere they are in. All they have to do is wait for summer.
they have no modern device to keep track of time all they know is that when they left "the Sunnies" were about to end fasting.
In that Island when ?Sunni? saw the crescent he knew that Ramadan has ended and starts to cut a piece of coconut in the shape of crescent every time he sees the new moon. After collecting eleven crescents the ?Sunni? starts his fast
When "the sunnies" were about to end fast is completely arbitrary dependent on when their god Umar decided to start the lunar calendar and when their god Umar decided the month of abstinence to arbitrarily be. Had their god Umar decided to start the lunar calendar earlier, the sunni worshippers of Umar would be abstaining in a different part of the solar year depending on when their god Umar decided to start the lunar calendar. Also had their god Umar decided on a different order of the lunar months arbitrarily, their month of abstinence would have been in a different part of the solar year. This arbitrary choice of when to start the lunar calendar and the arbitrary order of the lunar months has no basis in the great reading and observation of the period of abstinence based on such arbitrary man made calendars is therefore complete idolatry.
6116 And if you obey the majority of those on Earth they will lead you away from God?s path; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.
1036 Most of them only follow conjecture. While conjecture does not avail against the truth in anything. God is aware of what they do.
2170 And if they are told ?Follow what God has sent down,? they say ?No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing!? What if their fathers did not understand anything and were not guided?
2875 And We will extract from every nation a witness, then We will say ?Bring forth your proof.? They will then realize that all truth belongs with God, and what they had invented will abandon them.
For those on the island who serve the god alone instead of Umar, when the pagan sunnies end their abstinence is of no use and completely irrelevent. Also "eleven crescents" would be approximately five and a half lunar cycles because both waning and waxing phases of the moon are crescents.
The group could work out dawn when they see night light separating from the day and they can also work out night after the sunset .They can also estimate midday when the sun is high and no shadow. All of them can clearly see full moon to keep track of months. Working out the seasons is a bit tricky as it is a tropical place, but they can see the signs of spring and summer and autumn and winter.
Excellent. If that is the case then determining summer solstice would be very easy for them.
After collecting eleven crescents the ?Sunni? starts his fast but for the rest of the group they have to first work out the summer Solstice in order to start fasting. confused
How would they do that?-
At summer solstice the sun is at the highest point in the sky at noon and this can be determined by measuring the length of the shadow of a tall vertical object. At summer solstice this shadow will be the shortest vertically.
-
At summer solstice the sun rises at the most northern point on the horizon. During spring the sun will rise at a further northern point every day. The day when the sun rises at the most northern point will be summer solstice. Over the next days the sun will start rising more and more south from that point on the horizon. This can also be determined from the shadow of the tall vertical object. The shadow will keep moving horizontally further and further with each successive day as the summer solstice approaches. On the day of the summer solstice the shadow will be at the most extreme horizontal point and then over the next few days the shadow will start moving in the other direction horizontally with each successive day.
A sundial or a gnomon or any tall vertical object can be used for the solstice determination.
-
-
Peace All
I find these continuous debates about certain issues in the quran stem from the failure to realise that the quran was revealed in stages. It has to be this way since it is meant for all time. It cannot be static, it must be dynamic. Any community or individual must be able to approach the truth presented in it no matter what their present state is. In order to achieve this the quran allows communities & individuals time to acclimatise themselves to the changes they need to make on their way to truth.
In this instance, we find that 2184 states "ayyam ma'doodaat". It has been claimed that this means a few days & cannot be a full month. These claims are then used to say that the understanding of a full month of fasting creates a contradiction in the quran. Even understanding "ma'doodaat" to mean a few days, there is no contradiction with understanding that according to 2185, we are required to fast for the entire month of Ramadaan (please don't bring up the issue of scorching heat as this does not have basis in the quran.If anyone insists on discussing this, we can leave it for once the current aspect has been discussed fully).
All this means is that these to verses were revealed at different times & refer to the particular stage of development of an individual as to whether to fast a few days or a full month. This understanding is further re-enforced by the fact that 2184 states that those who are sick or on a travelling can make up the fast on other days. This is repeated in 2185. Why would this be repeated if the verses were revealed at the same time. A closer investigation the reason for the repetition. We find that 2184 states that if it is difficult for one to fast, such a person may feed people instead. In 2185 there is no such concession. It would therefore seem that initially the requirement was to fast a few days with certain concessions if one found it difficult, but at a later stage a full month was prescribed. This is because once you are used to the fasting there is no longer a need for such a concession. This does not mean that 2184 has been abrogated. It can be applied today, just as 2185 can be applied. It is just that it applies to different people depending on the stage of their development.
Anyway, I tried to discuss this in another thread in a more general manner. Here is the link
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598672.0
Imraan
-
Peace UmAlawi,
If Farida's group stranded on an island spent a long time wandering and lost consciousness and lost track of time and woke up to find themselves on the island. Farida is forced to start from a "reference point" in the Sunni calendar. Because this reference point is 100% arbitrary, if this reference point is lost, it cannot be established again. The Sunni guy wouldn't know that it is Ramadan which ended and not Shaaban or whatever. The fact that the Sunni calendar is completely arbitrary is exposed and the Sunni guy is unable to follow it. If it wasn't known that "the Sunnis were about to end fasting", the lone Sunni would be forever lost and out of sync with the Sunnis.
On the other hand, the summer solstice is easily determined using a natural sundial cut from a coconut to keep track of time of day and the length of the shadow. The group (including the Sunni) will need this anyway to know the time of the day and to organize their lives on the island. It is easy to see when the summer solstice occurs because just before the summer solstice the shadow is decreasing while right after it the shadow is increasing. So it is the day when the transition happens. Afterwards you start looking for the full-moon. This full-moon will also be special because it will take a very low path accross the horizon and for the first few hours after it rises will appear reddish in color.
A few years later, the group is saved and the poor Sunni guy finds out that he was actually fasting in Rabbi Al-Thanni all this time. On the other hand, the group who followed the great reading on the island is in perfect sync with everyone in the same hemisphere who follow the great reading.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Imraan,
Even understanding "ma'doodaat" to mean a few days, there is no contradiction with understanding that according to 2185, we are required to fast for the entire month of Ramadaan (please don't bring up the issue of scorching heat as this does not have basis in the quran.If anyone insists on discussing this, we can leave it for once the current aspect has been discussed fully).
What does Ramaddan mean then? How do you know that it is Ramadaan and not Shaaban or Rabi Al-Awwal, etc.?
All this means is that these to verses were revealed at different times & refer to the particular stage of development of an individual as to whether to fast a few days or a full month. This understanding is further re-enforced by the fact that 2184 states that those who are sick or on a travelling can make up the fast on other days. This is repeated in 2185. Why would this be repeated if the verses were revealed at the same time. A closer investigation the reason for the repetition. We find that 2184 states that if it is difficult for one to fast, such a person may feed people instead. In 2185 there is no such concession. It would therefore seem that initially the requirement was to fast a few days with certain concessions if one found it difficult, but at a later stage a full month was prescribed. This is because once you are used to the fasting there is no longer a need for such a concession. This does not mean that 2184 has been abrogated. It can be applied today, just as 2185 can be applied. It is just that it applies to different people depending on the stage of their development.
If you take "shahr" to mean "month" then do you think that 2185 was all revealed at the same time or was the word "fast" revealed before "who ever witnessed the month". I am asking because, when using "month", 2185 would become internally inconsistent and result in the absurdity that one has to witness the month first and then fast after it is over since witnessed is in the perfect past tense. This is why even the most staunch Sunnis have admitted to the fact that 2185 must be talking about witnessing the event (the new moon) and not the month.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace UmAlawi,
If Farida's group stranded on an island spent a long time wandering and lost consciousness and lost track of time and woke up to find themselves on the island. Peace,
Ayman
Peace
Please do not conjure. Nowhere in my scenario they wondered for a long time or lost awareness they were stranded in an Island fully conscious, without any modern device and as I said it was already Ramdan for a sunni guy (a"reference point" so he was able to make a note of the end of Ramadan when he saw the new moon crescent.
peace -
Peace Truthseeker,
the sunni worshippers of Umar would be abstaining in a different part of the solar year depending on when their god Umar decided to start the lunar calendar.
It is not just within the solar year where because of the approximately 11 days difference, the Sunnis would have been fasting in what is now Shaaban had the start of the calendar's era been made three years earlier. The lunar month would also change even within the lunar year itself. It is 100% dependent on when year 0 and month 0 was established. Had month 0 been established a month earlier then the whole calendar would shift one month earlier. Similarly, had month 0 been established 1 month later than the whole calendar would shift one month later and so on.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Farida,
Please do not conjure. Nowhere in m y scenario they wondered for a long time or lost awareness they just were stranded in an Island fully conscious, without any modern device and as I said it was already Ramdan for a sunni guy (a month well known ) so he was able to make a note of the end of Ramadan when he saw the new moon crescent.
peaceIn other words, you admit that your Ramadan is 100% dependent on humans, specifically Sunnis. You admit that if the poor Sunni loses consciousness, he would be completely out of sync and unlike those who follow the great reading, it would be impossible for him to know when Ramadan is. Let's hope that the Sunni guy doesn't get banged on the head during the violent storm that stranded him on the island rotfl .
When he wakes up, he will realize that his Sunni Ramadan is 100% arbitrary and manmade and he might start to look for the timing in the great reading so getting knocked out might not be a bad thing after all.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Ayman
Peace Imraan,
What does Ramaddan mean then? How do you know that it is Ramadaan and not Shaaban or Rabi Al-Awwal, etc.?
If you take "shahr" to mean "month" then do you think that 2185 was all revealed at the same time or was the word "fast" revealed before "who ever witnessed the month". I am asking because, when using "month", 2185 would become internally inconsistent and result in the absurdity that one has to witness the month first and then fast after it is over since witnessed is in the perfect past tense. This is why even the most staunch Sunnis have admitted to the fact that 2185 must be talking about witnessing the event (the new moon) and not the month.
Peace,
Ayman
Ramaddan appears only once in the Quran as far as I know. You therefore have no reference within the quran by which you can verify your interpretation. Therefore it could be the name of the month just as much as it could be meant scorching heat. So there is no definitive conclusion that can be reached through tasreef (as opposed to tafseer).
As for witnessing the month or moon, it really doesn't matter which of the two you use in the quran as they are both acceptable. The context would dictate the choice. There is no reason why "shahr" cannot be used as the month of Ramaddan in the beginning of the verse & the moon in the middle of the verse. Both are consistent with quranic usage. Your question is therefore irrelevant to the discussion.
We run into the same problems with salat & sadaqaat in the quran. That is that there are no9 contradictions in quran, only apparent contradictions due to a lack of investigation. By that I mean investigation within the quran because it explains itself through the process of tasreef (as opposed to tafseer).
You have avoided the issue I brought up regarding stages of development.
Imraan
-
Peace Farida,
In other words, you admit that your Ramadan is 100% dependent on humans, specifically Sunnis. You admit that if the poor Sunni loses consciousness, he would be completely out of sync and unlike those who follow the great reading, it would be impossible for him to know when Ramadan is. Let's hope that the Sunni guy doesn't get banged on the head during the violent storm that stranded him on the island rotfl .
When he wakes up, he will realize that his Sunni Ramadan is 100% arbitrary and manmade and he might start to look for the timing in the great reading so getting knocked out might not be a bad thing after all.
Peace,
Ayman
I only presented a scenario to make my point ! However any attempt to make true Muslims loses consciousness, so that they will be completely out of sync would be futile as this is the system established by the honourable prophet Mohammad and protected by God even though majority will go astray.
peace -
Has anyone wonder why God will mention only one month up to 12?
Same for the days, why would God mention only one day? Everyone here seems to agree yawm jumu'a doesnt mean Friday.
God has mentionned 2 salat, so we pray 2 salat, not 5, because they are simply not mentionned.