Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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This is most likely why God does not use and call the intermediary unit as A MONTH, but tells us "to take reference from one complete visible cycle of the moon" ,He means, may it be 29, or 30 , do it in what ever moon gives you in your geographical location.
Salaam
God explains a complete visible cycle from child to old age not from full strength. nope Here are the stages clearly explained
Free_Minds
40; 67. He is the One who created you from dust, then from a seed, then from an embryo, then He brings you out as a child, then He lets you reach your maturity, then you become old; and some of will have their lives terminated before this; and so that you may reach an appointed term, and perhaps so you may understand.3639 And the moon We have measured it to appear in stages, until it returns to being like an old curved sheath- From Crescent ? To Crescent .
Also
The Hellenic calendars, the Hebrew Lunisolar calendar and the Islamic Lunar calendar started the month with the first appearance of the thin crescent of the new moon http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MonthHe uses shahar , the full moon, which is brightest and longest duration wise, for most of his commands as a marker , ensuring "a least chance for ambiguity"
Full Moon ??? Please do not use English term tell us in your own language what word do you use for full moon?
Shahar as a Month, is most probably an evolved meaning. "When people saw full moon, and again saw the full moon they mentally realised that a certain number of days have elapsed, and hence started identifying "coming of the full moon" with a certain duration passed (Month)
Moon to month Etymology
Middle English < Old English mna? < Proto-Germanic *mn?- < Proto-Indo-European *me(n)ses- (moon, month), probably from PIE base *m?- (to measure), referring to the moon?s phases as the measure of time. Cognate with moon.
? Cognates include Ancient Greek (mn), Armenian (amis), German Monat, Old High German mnd, Middle High German mnt, Old Irish m?, and Old Slavic (msncĭ.
http//en.wiktionary.org/wiki/monthI sincerely hope that this effort of mine helps some one.
peace
siki
Someone ) You mean Ayman!
yes -
A very logical , well written and badly needed sum up.
welcome aboard.
handshake
siki
Yehh welcome aboard.
handshake quickduck sun
In the past we used to get responses in support of Ayman from the eloquent ones now it?s been switched a different category. yeah
Maybe you can sum up this for quickduck that The count of the months with God is twelve months in God's record the day He created the heavens and the Earth .... Provided humans understand
It does not matter what hemisphere they are in. All they have to do is wait for summer.-
At summer solstice the sun is at the highest point in the sky at noon and this can be determined by measuring the length of the shadow of a tall vertical object. At summer solstice this shadow will be the shortest vertically.
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At summer solstice the sun rises at the most northern point on the horizon. During spring the sun will rise at a further northern point every day. The day when the sun rises at the most northern point will be summer solstice. Over the next days the sun will start rising more and more south from that point on the horizon. This can also be determined from the shadow of the tall vertical object. The shadow will keep moving horizontally further and further with each successive day as the summer solstice approaches. On the day of the summer solstice the shadow will be at the most extreme horizontal point and then over the next few days the shadow will start moving in the other direction horizontally with each successive day.
OR
On the other hand, the summer solstice is easily determined using a natural sundial cut from a coconut to keep track of time of day and the length of the shadow. .....It is easy to see when the summer solstice occurs because just before the summer solstice the shadow is decreasing while right after it the shadow is increasing. So it is the day when the transition happens. Afterwards you start looking for the full-moon. This full-moon will also be special because it will take a very low path accross the horizon and for the first few hours after it rises will appear reddish in color
A sundial or a gnomon or any tall vertical object can be used for the solstice determination
However if for any handicap one is unable follow the above procedure then he is a worthless human his fast is not acceptable to God he is discarded. ignore
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Moon to month Etymology
Middle English < Old English mna? < Proto-Germanic *mn?- < Proto-Indo-European *me(n)ses- (moon, month), probably from PIE base *m?- (to measure), referring to the moon?s phases as the measure of time. Cognate with moon.
? Cognates include Ancient Greek (mn), Armenian (amis), German Monat, Old High German mnd, Middle High German mnt, Old Irish m?, and Old Slavic (msncĭ.
http//en.wiktionary.org/wiki/monthSomeone ) You mean Ayman!
yesPeace Sister Farida
Speaking of German, Salat means "Salad" here ;D
rotfl -
Peace Farida, siki
Thank you for your warm welcome.to Farida, i think you, Once again , have made at least one mistake trying to find similitudes between 4067 and 3639.
- He is the One who created you from dust, then from a seed, then from an embryo, then He brings you out as a child, then He lets you reach your maturity, then you become old (person) ; and some of will have their lives terminated before this; and so that you may reach an appointed term, and perhaps so you may understand.
3639 And the moon We have measured it to appear in (descending) stages, until it returns to being like an old (ancient) curved sheath.
1 - As far as i know, 4067 talks about the DEVELOPPMENT STAGES of a human being, as opposite to 3639 talking about a CYCLE STAGES of the moon.
None of us return to an "embryo" stage , but the moon always return to the "old curve sheet" stage . THAT's a Big difference .2 - as far as i understand arabic ( my mother tongue ) i can say that the the world "old" that you used in both verses, is in fact different in arabic version.
in 4067, God tells us that we may became "chuyukhan" (old person ) if not died before.
in 3639 god describes the crescent to be like an "qadeem" ( ancient ) curve sheet.i think both meaning cannot be interchanged, because the curve sheet never dies, and if you treat an old person as being "ancient" , she won't be happy with it
Peace all
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Peace Farida, siki
Thank you for your warm welcome.to Farida, i think you, Once again , have made at least one mistake trying to find similitudes between 4067 and 3639.
- He is the One who created you from dust, then from a seed, then from an embryo, then He brings you out as a child, then He lets you reach your maturity, then you become old (person) ; and some of will have their lives terminated before this; and so that you may reach an appointed term, and perhaps so you may understand.
3639 And the moon We have measured it to appear in (descending) stages, until it returns to being like an old (ancient) curved sheath.
1 - As far as i understand, 4067 talks about the DEVELOPPMENT STAGES of a human being, as opposite to 3639 talking about a CYCLE STAGES of the moon.
None of us return to an "embryo" stage , but the moon always return to the "old curve sheet" stage .2 - as far as i understand arabic ( my mother tongue ) i can say that the the world "old" that you used in both verses, is in fact different in arabic version.
in 4067, God tells us that we may became "chuyukhan" (old person ) if not died before.
in 3639 god describes the crescent to be like an "qadeem" ( ancient ) curve sheet.i think both meaning cannot be interchanged, because the curve sheet never dies, and if you treat an old person as being "ancient" , she won't be happy with it o
Peace all
Salaam
wow your English is good you know the difference between "ancient" and old bravo
Me in development stages understand nothing brickwall -
ASA to all,
I'm visiting FM after a long time, and I probably wouldn't even have posted except that I got into an argument with my family about Fasting. Suffice to say, it didn't end well for any of us, and I've put my family into a lot of stress because of my lack of clarity about my beliefs. I have been meaning to get guidance from the Book about how to go through life in light of Allah's commandments, but I'm ashamed to say that I realised today that I have been putting off the duties of a Believer, behind the excuse of actually understanding those commandments before implementing them in my life, a definite indicator of procrastination and, worse, hypocrisy.
I guess that's why, more out of desperation than anything else, I came back to FM and searched topics about Ramadan and came across this one. I read Br. Ayman's article and whatever I could in this thread, and tried to get an understanding of all viewpoints. Before I really get into my questions and all, I'll summarize the status of Quran in my eyes at present.
I believe that the Quran is explained in detail (6114), has all explanations for a believer (1689) and contains the complete Shariah of God (Koran 4518 and 4213), as against man-made Shariah (Koran 4221).
Please understand that I have no intention to belittle anybody else's belief's or impose mine on anybody. I admit here and now, that I'm still learning and just hoping and praying that I don't go astray. Having said that, let me post my observations and questions.
(1) The meaning of the word "Shahar" has been debated about a lot in the discussion. Some say it means "Full Moon", others contend that it means "Month". Don't know if there are other meanings which have been attributed to the word, but these seem to enjoy most popularity. So, I looked up the root word used throughout the Book to see the context that it's been used in different places, namely 2185, 2194, 2197, 2217, 2226, 2234, 492, 52, 597, 92, 95, 936, 3412, 4615, 584, 654 & 973, and used both "Full Moon" and "Month" to translate. In all instances, it gave me the impression of a time frame, although in some verses, a significance was attached to these time frames, i.e. "Shahru Ramadana" (2185) and "Alshahra Alharam" (2194, 2217, 52, 597, 95). "Shahar" could very well be a time frame between two markers (e.g. two consecutive full/new moons), which would make sense, for the sake of continuing consistency and giving structure to time measurement. Whatever markers are used (Two consecutive full moons or two consecutive new moons), the time frame between them would be the same, I believe. Correct me, if I'm mistaken.
However, for the significant time frames, like "Shahru Ramadan" and "Alshahra Alharam", the starting marker will be important and understandably so. So, the real question in my mind is, what would that marker be? The New Moon? The Full Moon? The Half Cresent Moon?
The Full Moon Marker, to me, makes more "sense", mainly because it somehow incorporates all the usages of "Shahar" in one word, without skewing the context or understanding of the verses.
(2) The next issue that was discussed was the year. Two verses are used, 105 & 1712. Both mention the sun and the moon, so we can know about the number of years and the count. I personally didn't infer anything concrete from the verse which suggested that the year is either solar or lunar. From what I understand, they're both complementary.
The rising and setting of the sun helps us move from day to day. The phases of the moon give us the count from Shahar to Shahar. The seasonal cycle gives us the reference point for the start of a new year, and help us count the number of years between same seasons, e.g. 3 summers ago = 3 years ago, etc.
Don't really know how the years are consequent to the understanding of Fasting or Ramadan, but I thought I should post what I understood at present.
(3) The word "Myqat" has been discussed as well, attributing the meaning, "timing" to it. Two verses are quoted, 2189 (which has the plural, "Mawaqit" & 7142 (which has the singular, "Myqat". The translations used in the article are as follows
They ask you regarding the crescent moons, Say "They are timings for the people as well as for the debate." And piety is not that you would enter a home from its back, but piety is whomever is righteous and come to the homes from their main doors. And be aware of the God that you may succeed.
And We appointed for Moussa thirty nights, and We completed with ten thus was completed the timing of his Lord, forty nights...
While looking for all instances of the word, "Myqat", I found another verse which contained the word
- And they used to Say "After we die and turn to dust and bones, we will get resurrected?"
- "As well as our forefathers?"
- Say "The people of old and the later generations,"
- "Will be summoned to an appointed meeting on a predetermined Day."
Substituting "timing" in place of "an appointed meeting" doesn't really lend itself well to the meaning of the verse. However, on the flip side, insert "appointed meeting(s)" in place of "timing(s)" in 2189 & 7142, and it still makes... sense.
Now I guess I should get to the point. I don't think that the frequency of "10 nights/days" appearing throughout the Quran necessarily means it relates to Ramadan, or at least I don't see any compelling evidence for it. God's "appointed meeting" with Prophet Musa was completed counting 30 + 10 = 40 nights. So the "completed count" was 40 nights, no? Similarly, 10 days of Hajj are quoted, and Prophet Moses agreement to complete either 8 or 10 years (2827). Note that the next verse (282 mentions him saying, whichever of the two "counts" he accomplishes, there'll be no hard feelings from the employer. So, for all we know he may have "completed" the 8-year count and left. (I'm not sure of any verse in the Book that mentions how much time he was in service before he left. If anyone know, kindly point out my mistake.)
I guess the crux is, even if one occurences in the which display various similarities, it doesn't automatically mean that they are related. Verse 37 comes to mind which mentions the danger of seeking to derive interpretations from verses similar to each other. I'm sorry if I'm out of context there, but that is my real concern.
In essence, if I believe that "Shahar Ramadan" represents a particular time frame from one Full Moon to the next and if we witness the First Full Moon which marks the start of the Shahar, then we should complete the count of the "Shahar" with the Fasting. Occam's Razor, I guess.
(4) The bone of contention, "Ramadan". Two views. Proper Noun or Common Noun?
If it is a proper noun, then it's very reasonable to assume that Ramadan was an identifiable word/month in Pre-quranic era of Arabia. Otherwise, no one would know what was being addressed, when the Message was sent down. So, now the question is, "Is there evidence of presence of the word/month of Ramadan in the Pre-quranic era and if so, is it acceptable to anybody who believes that all explanations are in the Book?"
4144 comes to mind,
And had We made it a non-Arabic Quran, they would have said "If only its verses were made clear!" Non-Arabic and Arabic, Say "For those who believe, it is a guide and healing. As for those who disbelieve, there is a deafness in their ears, and they are blind to it. These will be called from a place far away."
I think If "Shahar Ramadan" was not a widely understood and used terminology in Arabia in those days, the signs would still have been unclear which would have contradicted this verse.
But, even this doesn't answer the question, "How do we know if Shahrah Ramadan then is the same Shahrah Ramadan now?" This is part I'm struggling with. Maybe I'm trying to overthink it, I don't know. But something feels missing. I guess I'm expecting a clearer distinction than this.
I look at the convention of naming in general. Everything is given a name which, more often than not, is indicative of its attributes. Take Allah's names in the Quran, for example. Every name takes root from certain attibutes, e.g. Ar-Razzaq (The Ever-Providing) takes root from Rizq (Bounty/Supply/Provisions). It would not surprise me if months, seasons and years were named in the same fashion in early Arabian times. The Gregorian Calender's September and December, for example, take root from "Septa" meaning 7 and "Deca" meaning 10 respectively. Similarly, "Shahra Ramadan" may well have taken cue from it's root "Ra-Miim-Dad", meaning "Scorching Heat", signifying the hottest month.
So, basically, even if "Shahra Ramadan" is a proper noun, it's root might indicate the nature of the time frame itself. In this case, Br. Ayman's Summer Solitice Moon "Marker" seems logical and doesn't seem to create any contradiction in the Book.
Those are my thoughts on the matter. Thanks for having the patience to read through them.
Peace
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"Month" does not define an accurate time period, even in existing solar calendar, If i tell you to carry out something for a month, i will have to clarify , weather 30 or 31 days. I think we could have caused less confusion by assigning 30 days to all months and making Feb, (or any month) of 35 days. But probably people back then wanted to equally distribute the shock of a single long month.
But the lunar month can not be humanly adjusted, It would never be a fixed period , and hence would keep us guessing, 29, or 30? So God can not use this term, He has to tell us start and end markers, and when ever he actually wanted to use the period a "lunar month", He used the term fasayamm shahreen. The days between two markers. what ever they turn out to be, 29 or 30.
siki
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"Month" does not define an accurate time period, even in existing solar calendar, If i tell you to carry out something for a month, i will have to clarify , weather 30 or 31 days. I think we could have caused less confusion by assigning 30 days to all months and making Feb, (or any month) of 35 days. But probably people back then wanted to equally distribute the shock of a single long month.
But the lunar month can not be humanly adjusted, It would never be a fixed period , and hence would keep us guessing, 29, or 30? So God can not use this term, He has to tell us start and end markers, and when ever he actually wanted to use the period a "lunar month", He used the term fasayamm shahreen. The days between two markers. what ever they turn out to be, 29 or 30.
siki
You should have explained this to God to make luner months according to your requirement so that you could adjust it as you wish, when you wish !
BTW whats the world for full moon in Urdu?
peace -
The orbit of the Earth is slowing down by a fraction of a second every year. The rotation of the Earth is also slowing each year, so they cannot be considered fixed or constant. Also, as the moon is receding from the Earth, it's orbit around the Earth is slowing.
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"Month" does not define an accurate time period, even in existing solar calendar, If i tell you to carry out something for a month, i will have to clarify , weather 30 or 31 days. I think we could have caused less confusion by assigning 30 days to all months and making Feb, (or any month) of 35 days. But probably people back then wanted to equally distribute the shock of a single long month.
But the lunar month can not be humanly adjusted, It would never be a fixed period , and hence would keep us guessing, 29, or 30? So God can not use this term, He has to tell us start and end markers, and when ever he actually wanted to use the period a "lunar month", He used the term fasayamm shahreen. The days between two markers. what ever they turn out to be, 29 or 30.
siki
Sorry, Siki... I might not be understanding you correctly, but when I say "Month", I don't mean the conventional Gregorian month or any other organized month for that matter. I'm just using a generalized one-word term for "Shahar", which basically seems to me as the time frame between 2 consecutive same moon phases, used in the same sense as 936. Not attributing a fixed number to them. It's a count from one marker to the other, right?
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ASA to all,
I'm visiting FM after a long time, and I probably wouldn't even have posted except that I got into an argument with my family about Fasting. Suffice to say, it didn't end well for any of us, and I've put my family into a lot of stress because of my lack of clarity about my beliefs.
PeaceSalaam and welcome back
At least your family didn't abandoned you to some remote Island where you would have to wait for summer and then using a natural sundial cut from a coconut to keep track of time of day and the length of the shadow.
Afterwards you start looking for the full-moon. This full-moon will also be special because it will take a very low path accross the horizon and for the first few hours after it rises will appear reddish in color hail
! Next time you have argument with your family make sure you have a sundial or a gnomon or any tall vertical object for the solstice determination
peace -
The orbit of the Earth is slowing down by a fraction of a second every year. The rotation of the Earth is also slowing each year, so they cannot be considered fixed or constant. Also, as the moon is receding from the Earth, it's orbit around the Earth is slowing.
Thanks Rev
Time to get meal ready to break fast so will catch up later insha'Allah
peace -
Peace all,
So God can not use this term, He has to tell us start and end markers, and when ever he actually wanted to use the period a "lunar month", He used the term fasayamm shahreen. The days between two markers. what ever they turn out to be, 29 or 30.
siki
I agree...that's the only and easiest way for people all around the world, space and time, (even those stranded in farida's island) to have understanding of time frames without the use of any technical instrument for measuring.
Peace Rev..
If the earth and moon are slowing down by a fraction of second every year , the this would be insignificant in a human life. Moreover, the time frame between two solstices will still be a fixed year within this same humain life or even the whole human civilisation.
As Br.Ayman said in one of hiw posts, the time frame between 2 summer solstices has always been equal to a year , and will still be , in a million years from now. whether this year is 365.2xxx , 360,9xxx or 150,8xxx days.Salam
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Peace all,
I agree...that's the only and easiest way for people all around the world, space and time, (even those stranded in farida's island) to have understanding of time frames without the use of any technical instrument for measuring.
Peace Rev..
If the earth and moon are slowing down by a fraction of second every year , the this would be insignificant in a human life and still a year between two solstices will be fixed within this same humain life or even the whole human civilisation.
As Br.Ayman said in one of hiw posts, the time frame between 2 summer solstices has always been equal to a year , and will still be , in a million years from now. whether this year is 365.2xxx , 360,9xxx or 150,8xxx days.Salam
Yes this is true. I was just making the point that there is no such thing as a fixed point in space/time as everything in the universe is moving and speeds change. If you calculate back 1400 or 2000 years ago, it has made a difference in the time between two solstices and the time between the phases of the moon.
I agree that as far as humans are concerned, the change is not very significant within their lifetime.
peace -
Peace all,
I agree...that's the only and easiest way for people all around the world, space and time, (even those stranded in farida's island) to have understanding of time frames without the use of any technical instrument for measuring.
Peace Rev..
If the earth and moon are slowing down by a fraction of second every year , the this would be insignificant in a human life and still a year between two solstices will be fixed within this same humain life or even the whole human civilisation.
As Br.Ayman said in one of hiw posts, the time frame between 2 summer solstices has always been equal to a year , and will still be , in a million years from now. whether this year is 365.2xxx , 360,9xxx or 150,8xxx days.Salam
I agree, moreover Rev , As the civilization has progressed to a level where we have managed to discover the info regarding slowing down of orbits by a second, He in his infinite wisdom knew, that by then we will be able to make "week , hour seconds , nanoseconds etc, and use them. Does he restrict us to using his timing devices only?
siki