Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Peace,
Quote from Ayman ?On the other hand, taking "shahr" to mean "month" creates an insurmountable logical absurdity and physical impossibility since "witnessed" is in the perfect past tense. In other words, you would have to witness the month first and then go back in time and fast it. This false understanding of "shahr" as "month" of course reduces the passage to complete nonsense and hence even the staunchest Sunnis and defenders of "shahr" as "month" are forced to admit that 2185 must be talking about witnessing an event (they claim is the New Moon crescent) and not a "month".?
This is the guy who produced the most contradictory article in the world. And here he is giving lecture on ?insurmountable logical absurdity and physical impossibility?. The winner of the mother-of-all-contradiction article.
You have witnessed the month if you are in it a moment after its start i.e. right after the sunset of first day of the month. So what is the fuss about ?witness the month first and then go back in time and fast it?. What kind of nonsense logic is this, what an absurd understanding? No wonder he produced what he produced.
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Peace,
Quote from Ayman ?On the other hand, taking "shahr" to mean "month" creates an insurmountable logical absurdity and physical impossibility since "witnessed" is in the perfect past tense. In other words, you would have to witness the month first and then go back in time and fast it. This false understanding of "shahr" as "month" of course reduces the passage to complete nonsense and hence even the staunchest Sunnis and defenders of "shahr" as "month" are forced to admit that 2185 must be talking about witnessing an event (they claim is the New Moon crescent) and not a "month".?
This is the guy who produced the most contradictory article in the world. And here he is giving lecture on ?insurmountable logical absurdity and physical impossibility?. The winner of the mother-of-all-contradiction article.
You have witnessed the month if you are in it a moment after its start i.e. right after the sunset of first day of the month. So what is the fuss about ?witness the month first and then go back in time and fast it?. What kind of nonsense logic is this, what an absurd understanding? No wonder he produced what he produced.
Indeed, and he even tries to justify his nonsense with more nonsense.
Ayman, I'm still waiting for your response.
Have a great Ramadan, everyone! peace
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Peace progessive
Indeed, and he even tries to justify his nonsense with more nonsense.
Ayman, I'm still waiting for your response.
If you really read the 100 and more Ayman's answers althrough this thread, and then put his 9 or more arguments together in front of your eyes , then you'll notice that there's no need to ask for other answers.
if you disagree with him when he says
?On the other hand, taking "shahr" to mean "month" creates an insurmountable logical absurdity and physical impossibility since "witnessed" is in the perfect past tense. In other words, you would have to witness the month first and then go back in time and fast it. This false understanding of "shahr" as "month" of course reduces the passage to complete nonsense and hence even the staunchest Sunnis and defenders of "shahr" as "month" are forced to admit that 2185 must be talking about witnessing an event (they claim is the New Moon crescent) and not a "month".? , then recap this with te other statements so the picture would be clearer to your eyes.
Zoomin' in too close to a jigsaw puzzle does not help see the picture as clear as if you zoom out (look from above )...For me, Ayman has already answered enough, and i am responsible for what i believe . So unless someone gives me ( or find it my self) a really logical theory that refute Aymans' summer solstice, i'll go on facing the retribution verses that farida always kindly remind me..
Salam
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Peace AW,
You are wrong, the start of the new era has nothing to do with the migration of the prophet. The era started on Muharam 1 year 0 but traditionalists say that the prophet's migration was 66 days later on 8 Rabi' Al-Awal. Even if Muharam 1 was the actual date of the migration, which is nothing but speculation anyway, then why choose this particular date? This is certainly nothing that is authorized by the god through the great reading. Some guy named Umar arbitrarily decided to choose this year and a certain month in it to start the calendar and it has nothing to do with hijra, the great reading or anything. Same goes for the arbitrary order of the months. So the sectarian Ramadan is 100% arbitrary.
Peace,
Ayman
peace,
Nobody said Muharram 1 was the actual date of migration. And it dont have to be either just because it is the 1st month/moon. Umar choose year 622ad cause it was the year the prophet migrated and i dont know what actual month ( or moon) and day the calender started ,only the year. Umar could have decided to start the calender in 1 muharram, 622ad, even thoe the prophet didnt migrate untill the 3rd moon of the year as they say. I dont see whats the big deal. And just because muhammad migrated in month( moon) rabi al awal, dont mean rabi alawal has to be called month 1 ( or moon 1); because then the late umar would be calling the 3rd moon the 1st. The months would be arbitary if rabi al awal was made to be month 1 because the phases of the moon would not be measured right. And there is no such thing as a " sectarian ramadan" unless some muslims start following you or using a solar calender instead of lunar.
All I know is that the years of the islamic calender are counted from the beginning of the hijra, sometime in the year 622ad. Therefore, the year 2000, for example, on the gregorian calender corrisponded to the year 1421 on the Islamic calender. The calender could have started on 8/ month ( full moon) rabi al awal/ year 622ad to my understanding. The only thing authorized by God is using the moon to keep track of the years and count. I assum umar decided to start the calender on day 8, moon rabi al awal, year 622ad. But thats my assumtion as of now. And either we or you are guided or clearly astray.
What does the start of the islamic calender have to do with?
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Peace AW,
Can you understand that calendars are manmade and "arbitrary" since they depend on which day/month/year they were started ?
This also is valid for all calendars including hebrew, gregorian AND islamic one, and no matter if this calendar is lunar or solar based .
Moreover, the order of months, as in my understanding, was never been always the same. A few re-arrangements were practiced from time to time. please (re-)check http//www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/The%20Islamic%20Jewish%20Calendar.pdf for better understanding.Salam all
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A night of full moon, a night full of light, the night in which quran was revealed, quran is noor "light" in the darkness of ignorance. What is laylatul qadr? elektro
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Peace AW,
Can you understand that calendars are manmade and "arbitrary" since they depend on which day/month/year they were started ?
This also is valid for all calendars including hebrew, gregorian AND islamic one, and no matter if this calendar is lunar or solar based .
Moreover, the order of months, as in my understanding, was never been always the same. A few re-arrangements were practiced from time to time. please (re-)check http//www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/The%20Islamic%20Jewish%20Calendar.pdf for better understanding.Salam all
Oh, so what do you suggest? peace
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Oh, so what do you suggest? peace
Salaam
Let me tell you Anthony Wallace what quickduck suggests that if you use the quotes from the Qur?an then you are acting like a ?grown beard imam?. So We should look cool and use the word submitter instead of Muslim and use the word ?great reading? instead of Quran and learn from the pdf file research of Ben Abrahamson and Joseph Katz http//www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/The%20Islamic%20Jewish%20Calendar.pdf.This research is purely hadith driven, yet he considers it acceptable for a better understanding of how a few re-arrangements were practiced from time to time
peace -
I may know the reason why some are aggressive in the Ramadan thread.
Because they are fasting Ramadan NOW so they tend to be harsh with people who reject 'Umar's arbitrary Ramadan'.
Normal human reaction.
No need to worry.
Peace Rami,
Could I ask on what authority do you say that my month of fasting is 'Umar's arbitrary Ramadan', please state that source or apologise for you baseless accusations.
If you have become knowledgeable from PDF file research of The Islamic Jewish Calendar How the Pilgrimage of the 9th of Av became the Hajj of the 9th of Dhu'al-Hijjah. By Ben Abrahamson and Joseph Katz Then you are talking rubbish based on hadiths, check it your self from these excerpts below
There are no such differences of opinion with regard to the date of the Hijra as there are with
regard to the time when the call first came to Muhammad and with regard to the day and
year of his birth....... They know that birth of the prophet was not known yet they puts doubts into minds by their own suggestion]...during the time of'Umar ibn al-Khattab and it became necessary to have a calendar so as to fix the dates. TheCaliph, who was so well aware of the sunna of the Prophet and of his temperament, instead of fixing the standard from the birth of the Prophet, which heralded an entirely new chapter in the history of man or his death which had placed such a heavy responsibility upon the
shoulders of the Caliphs or some other event, he ordered the adoption of the Hijra as the
basic date for the Islamic calendar..And then on basis of this hadith
Shams al-Din Muhammad ibn 'Abd al-Rahman al-Sakhawi (d. 902) in his al-I'lan bi'l-Tawbikh
li-man dhamma ahl al-tawrikh gives the following details about the origin of the Islamic
calendar "A report on the authority of Ibn 'Abbas states that there existed no era in Medina
when the Prophet arrived there. People came to use an era a month or two after his arrival.
This continued until Muhammad's death. Then, the use of an era was discontinued, and there
was none during the caliphate of Abu Bakr and the first four years of the caliphate of 'Umar.
Then, the (Muslim) era was established.? Umar is reported to have said to the assembled
dignitaries among the men around Muhammad "The income is considerable. What we have
distributed has been without fixed dates. How can we remedy that?" One answer came from
al-Hurmuzan. He had been king of alAhwaz. After his capture during the conquest of Persia,
he had been brought to 'Umar and had become a Muslim. He said "The Persians have a
(method of) calculation which they call mahroz and which they ascribe to their Sassanid
rulers. The word mahroz was arabicized as mu'arrakh, and the infinitive ta'rikh was formed
from it.
'Umar chose the strictly lunar calendar as the official calendar, and no intercalation
And the authors conclude based on their twisted understanding and source Although the Islamic Calendar has undergone two distinct changes (discontinued intercalation
and frozen commutation), is still possible to align the Islamic Calendar to its Jewish
counterpartYes I am fasting and that is not what makes me angry but unfounded accusations so I would appreciate if you produce your proof or else apologise.
peace -
Peace Rami,
Could I ask on what authority do you say that my month of fasting is 'Umar's arbitrary Ramadan', please state that source or apologise for you baseless accusations.
If you have become knowledgeable from PDF file research of The Islamic Jewish Calendar How the Pilgrimage of the 9th of Av became the Hajj of the 9th of Dhu'al-Hijjah. By Ben Abrahamson and Joseph Katz Then you are talking rubbish based on hadiths, check it your self from these excerpts below
There are no such differences of opinion with regard to the date of the Hijra as there are with
regard to the time when the call first came to Muhammad and with regard to the day and
year of his birth....... They know that birth of the prophet was not known yet they puts doubts into minds by their own suggestion]...during the time of'Umar ibn al-Khattab and it became necessary to have a calendar so as to fix the dates. TheCaliph, who was so well aware of the sunna of the Prophet and of his temperament, instead of fixing the standard from the birth of the Prophet, which heralded an entirely new chapter in the history of man or his death which had placed such a heavy responsibility upon the
shoulders of the Caliphs or some other event, he ordered the adoption of the Hijra as the
basic date for the Islamic calendar..And then on basis of this hadith
Shams al-Din Muhammad ibn 'Abd al-Rahman al-Sakhawi (d. 902) in his al-I'lan bi'l-Tawbikh
li-man dhamma ahl al-tawrikh gives the following details about the origin of the Islamic
calendar "A report on the authority of Ibn 'Abbas states that there existed no era in Medina
when the Prophet arrived there. People came to use an era a month or two after his arrival.
This continued until Muhammad's death. Then, the use of an era was discontinued, and there
was none during the caliphate of Abu Bakr and the first four years of the caliphate of 'Umar.
Then, the (Muslim) era was established. Umar is reported to have said to the assembled
dignitaries among the men around Muhammad "The income is considerable. What we have
distributed has been without fixed dates. How can we remedy that?" One answer came from
al-Hurmuzan. He had been king of alAhwaz. After his capture during the conquest of Persia,
he had been brought to 'Umar and had become a Muslim. He said "The Persians have a
(method of) calculation which they call mahroz and which they ascribe to their Sassanid
rulers. The word mahroz was arabicized as mu'arrakh, and the infinitive ta'rikh was formed
from it.
'Umar chose the strictly lunar calendar as the official calendar, and no intercalation
And the authors conclude based on their twisted understanding and source Although the Islamic Calendar has undergone two distinct changes (discontinued intercalation
and frozen commutation), is still possible to align the Islamic Calendar to its Jewish
counterpartYes I am fasting but that is not what makes me angry but unfounded accusations so I would appreciate if you produce your proof or else apologise.
peaceI didn't read this article.
Your Ramadan is arbitrary! Your Ramdan is almost always a misnomer.
Have you wondered why the they call it Ramadan?
There is a reason and this reason doesn't go through the seasons.
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Salaam
Let me tell you Anthony Wallace what quickduck suggests that if you use the quotes from the Qur?an then you are acting like a ?grown beard imam?. .....Only if you use them OFF topic. Everyone (including me ) can/must use quotes from the quran, but only in order to prove/disaprove a theory/understanding, Not for cursing and putting spells on people because they're discussing an issue with you. (read the forum rules).
Can anyone Tell me, who in this forum uses this kind of sentences in almost all of their posts
- Redeem or you will face an enorm Retribution
- Forget what you are thinking about, or you will end down in hell.
- God will curse you if you don't follow Farida's brilliant understandings.
3366 On the Day when their faces will be turned over in the Fire, they will say "Oh, we wish we had obeyed God, and obeyed the messenger
3367- And they will say "Our Lord, we have obeyed our leaders and our learned ones, but they misled us from the path."
3368- Our Lord, give them double the retribution, and curse them with a mighty curse
3369-O you who believe, do not be like those who harmed Moses, but then God cleared him of all they said, and he was honorable before God.
3370-O you who believe, be aware of God and speak only the truth
3371- He will then direct your works, and forgive your sins. And whosoever obeys God and His messenger has triumphed a great triumph
3372 -We have offered the trust to the heavens and the Earth, and the mountains, but they refused to bear it, and were fearful of it. But the human being accepted it; he was transgressing, ignorant
3373- So that God may punish the hypocrite men and the hypocrite women, and the men who set up partners and the women who set up partners. And God redeems the believing men and the believing women. And God is Forgiver, Merciful
17 81. And say "The truth has come and falsehood has perished. Falsehood is always bound to perish''.
If anyone sees that those verses are not OFF TOPIC, please tell me...
As long as you keep going this way , you'll always appear like a "grown beard imam" to me. Unless you are very sure about who/what God adresses in the underlined words above.
@Anthony wallace
what i suggest is what i already said in another post
1 - manmade inventions are not prohibited as long as they don't contradict the quranic teachings.
2 - calendars ( including sundials and vertical tall objects ignore are as useful as cars, watchs and computers in our daily life. but when it comes to religious matters (salat, fasting, hajj...) we should use the informations given in the quran. (you see farida, i can also use the word "quran" as well as "the great reading".3- God guides whoever he wills, and leads astray whoever he wills. euuuuh...sorry, this is fftopic
Salam
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Peace,
Quote from Ayman ?Another sign that makes it absolutely clear that the year is solar is in 1712?
Another quote from Ayman ?Given that night and day is certainly determined by the sun and not the moon, the sign in 1712 leaves absolutely no doubt that the year is solar.?
Please note the use of the word ?absolutely?. This is a very strong word to be used for manmade theory. He is implying that there is no doubt in his Ramadan theory and that his interpretation of verses is infallible.
Now lets examine Ayman?s solar year i.e. interval between summer solstice. This interval must line up with the solar year cycle of 365.2xx days. Remember his assertion that year is solar. A responsible author would have done the work depicted herein to validate the theory prior to releasing it in public domain. On the other hand an irresponsible and crooked minded author would hide the error in his theory and when other exposes the errors he rejects them without proper rationale.
Also, please note that Ayman?s smallest time unit is night and day. This is evident in his second quote above. The point is he cannot handle fraction of a day.
We are looking for Ayman?s time interval (year) to sync up with the solar cycle of 365.2xx. Now lets begin the analysis
Data of full moons after summer solstice from 2000-2019
YEAR MONTH TIME (GMT)JULIAN DAY #OF DAYS
2000 July 16 1357 2451742.081
354.048
2001 July 5 1506 2452096.129
354.277
2002 June 24 2145 2452450.406
383.902
2003 July 13 1923 2452834.308
354.657
2004 July 2 1110 2453188.965
354.712
2005 June 22 0415 2453543.677
383.95
2006 July 11 0303 2453927.627
354.449
2007 June 30 1350 2454282.076
383.95
2008 July 18 0800 2454665.883
354.058
2009 July 7 0923 2455019.891
354.09
2010 June 26 1132 2455373.981
383.797
2011 July 15 0641 2455757.778
354.51
2012 July 3 1854 2456112.288
354.696
2013 June 23 1134 2456466.982
383.994
2014 July 12 1126 2456850.976
354.622
2015 July 2 0221 2457205.598
383.86
2016 July 19 2259 2457589.458
354.215
2017 July 9 0409 2457943.673
354.032
2018 June 28 0455 2458297.705
383.698
2019 July 16 2140 2458681.403I have subtracted the Julian days (2nd moon-1st moon) to get the interval between the summer solstice.
Finding 1 None of the solstice interval matches the solar cycle of 365.2xx ? Contradiction
Finding 2 Ayman?s system cannot resolve the fraction within the interval ? contradiction
Finding 3 A 8 year cycle can be seen in the above table but the total number of days within the 8 year cycle is not a multiple of solar cycle. The first 8 year cycle gives 2923.945 days which is not equal to 8*365.24 = 2921.92 days ? Contradiction.
Now let?s see what happens when we don?t count the 13 moon. This is crazy but we will go through the exercise. An absurd theory requires such a fake adjustment.
Eliminating the 13 moon changes the 383.xxx days to the following (top to bottom)
383.902 goes to 354.565
383.95 goes to 354.576
383.95 goes to 354.155
383.797 goes to 354.363
383.994 goes to 354.694
383.86 goes to 354.363
383.698 goes to 354.151With no 13th moon, we loose 8 year periodicity. And if we add all the years we get 361.233. No connection to solar cycle.
The dilemma is if you keep the 13th moon you come close to satisfying 8 years aggregated solar days (still off by few days). Without the 13th moon you have lunar year.
Therefore, the mother question to the author is where is the connection between solar year and the solstice interval satisfying the condition ?absolutely clear that the year is solar??
Now, will the real author please stand up and answer the question.
More contradiction to follow, God willing.
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I didn't read this article.
Peace Rami,
Then what have you got to back up your accusation?
Your Ramadan is arbitrary! Your Ramdan is almost always a misnomer.
I can also say that you are an imposter but I would have to produce my evidence for it so its no good repeating Ayman?s rhetoric, come up with some thing new or shut up.
Have you wondered why the they call it Ramadan?
Keep your wondering to yourself I don?t need lesson from you at least .
There is a reason and this reason doesn't go through the seasons.
Ha ha ha there we go again and at last we know the real identity of this one who would love to see our month of fasting disintegrate. You really thinks I pay any attention to what you have got to say.
peace -
Peace,
With no 13th moon, we loose 8 year periodicity. And if we add all the years we get 361.233. No connection to solar cycle.
The dilemma is if you keep the 13th moon you come close to satisfying 8 years aggregated solar days (still off by few days). Without the 13th moon you have lunar year.
Therefore, the mother question to the author is where is the connection between solar year and the solstice interval satisfying the condition ?absolutely clear that the year is solar??
Now, will the real author please stand up and answer the question.
More contradiction to follow, God willing.
Salaam Guest
Thank you for your calculations but do you really expect that A-team would pay any attention to your proofs? No they are promoting a hadith based twisted study in their hope that ignorant would fall for it and they would manage to disintegrate the month of Ramadan. This is only this wishful thinking and would never ever materialise. As long as this world exist some true Muslim would defend this accusation.
peace
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Peace
Salaam Guest
Thank you for your calculations but do you really expect that A-team would pay any attention to your proofs? No they are promoting a hadith based twisted study in their hope that ignorant would fall for it and they would manage to disintegrate the month of Ramadan............ peace
does not your "arbitrary month of Ramadan" take its basis from hadiths ?
Why yours would be correct and those hadiths that don't please you would not ??
is this not hyprocrisy ? so what is it ?listen You should proove
1- that the pre-islamc arabs knew a month named Ramadan.
2 -that in the pre-islamic era, a Month (or 29.53 days or timeframe Between 2 moons/crescents...or whatever ) was known as "shahr" .and then, maybe i'll start doubting my beliefs
it will not surprise me if you don't see the big nose in my face .. giveup
Salam,
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Peace quickduck
does not your "arbitrary month of Ramadan" take its basis from hadiths ?
Salam,NO
Why yours would be correct and those hadiths that don't please you would not ??
No Pick and chose hadith with me at least.
is this not hyprocrisy ? ?
Absolutely!
listen You should proove
1- that the pre-islamc arabs knew a month named Ramadan.
2 -that in the pre-islamic era, a Month (or 29.53 days or timeframe Between 2 moons/crescents...or whatever ) was known as "shahr" .and then, maybe i'll start doubting my beliefs
I have no desire to make you change your beliefs as per surah 109
it will not surprise me if you don't see the big nose in my face .. giveup
Irrelevant
peace -
Peace Farida,
NO
so where is it from ?
No Pick and chose hadith with me at least.
That's not compulsory
Absolutely
Yes , you're right
I have no desire to make you change your beliefs as per surah 109
You act like tryin' to do the opposite. Moreover , with the wrong way
Irrelevant
Sure it is laugh
salam
P.S be polite and start your posts with some salutation.
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Peace quickduck
so where is it from ?
That's not compulsory
Yes , you're right
You act like tryin' to do the opposite. Moreover , with the wrong way
Sure it is laughsalam
ignore
P.S be polite and start your posts with some salutation.
Point taken and mistake corrected thanks for reminding peace
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Peace Farida and everyone who is having a panic attack as a result of the indisputable fact that their traditional calendar is 100% arbitrary,
How arrogant you consider everyone ignorant except yourself and your cronies who seem to pop up out of nowhere to defend you every Ramadan and ) strangely they sound so much like you though they claim not to be speaking English well.
Me and "my cronies" ) used to be in the same exact place as you. A few years ago I used to believe in the arbitrary sectarian Ramadan that has ZERO basis in the great reading exactly like you do. No matter what the result is, trying to determine the timing purely based on the great reading is better than ignoring the great reading and mindlessly following the chain of tradition. People who try to follow the truth in the great reading will always have the higher moral and logical ground over those who blindly follow arbitrary and false manmade traditions. This might seem like arrogance to you but it is because you have no real faith in your so-called Ramadan and this explains all the anger and inferiority complexes that you demonstrated on this thread. All that you proved is that your house is made of cards and this is why you get so mad when anyone shakes it. )
Now, coming to your post, please give evidence for your source. Enough of speculations from you.
There are 84 pages on this thread of evidences and sources. Despite all the noise you are making, you have not provided even one valid or invalid argument. All you have done is be a cheerleader for Guest or Progressive1993 or anyone who comes along repeating the same old stale arguments for the sectarian arbitrary timing that we all know (remember we all have been there and done that). At least those people tried and made an effort even if they were unsuccessful and their own arguments turned against them.
I see that you have completely ignored my earlier post of today Reply #1213 on Today at 042925 PM ?. Why? Is it too difficult for you to understand or you are just in the habit of repeating yourself playing on the psychology that oft repeated lies become the truth.
Whether you like it or not, the fact that your Ramadan is 100% arbitrary and is not based on the great reading is true and you can?t prove otherwise. As for lies, there are plenty of examples. For example, those desperately trying to save the traditional timing on this thread have argued using 2189, which talks about the ?crescents? being used as a timing device for the ?hajj?, but they are lying because their arbitrary timing for ?hajj? completely disregards the crescent and instead your pagan ?hajj? starts on the 8th of Dhu Al-Hija and not with any crescent and ends on the 13th of Dhu Al-Hija and not with any crescent. On the other hand, the timing that I found based on the great reading ends the ?hajj? with the crescent. Remember what I said about your house being a house of cards. I would suggest that you try to solidify your house and make a solid foundation for it before worrying about what others think. Start with something simple like 2189 that everyone agrees on and try to time your ?hajj? accordingly.
I see how much you hope to break the chain that somehow the followers of the messenger should lose track of time or their consciousness so that you could take over and enforce your false claim, but sadly for you this will NEVER happen. nope
There is no difference between what you are saying and what Hadithists say. You might as well dip some fresh flies in your food and drink some warm Camel urine to cure all your ills. Instead of following the message, you fanaticize that you are following the messenger when you are in fact following your misguided forefathers. Your chain is tied around your neck.
17 81. And say "The truth has come and falsehood has perished. Falsehood is always bound to perish!"
Indeed. This is why you are so upset.
This is also why many people like me who used to follow the traditional timing have disregarded falsehood and are now following the timing according to the great reading. On the other hand, you have not convinced anyone to go back to following the 100% baseless and arbitrary traditional timing.
Peace,
Ayman