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Hot/"ramadan" Answer

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved Islamic Calendar & Ramadhan.
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  • A Offline
    A Offline
    ayman
    wrote on last edited by
    #1961

    Peace Nabeel,

    It depends on which translation, look at this one (based on another tafsir)
    (in arabic it does not give a number it just say months maalumaat)
    2197 The Hajj (pilgrimage) is (in) the well-known (lunar year) months (i.e. the 10th month, the 11th month
    and the first ten days of the 12th month of the Isl?mic calendar, i.e. two months and ten days). So
    whosoever intends to perform Hajj therein by assuming Ihr?m), then he should not have sexual
    relations (with his wife), nor commit sin, nor dispute unjustly during the Hajj. And whatever good you
    do, (be sure) All?h knows it. And take a provision (with you) for the journey, but the best provision is
    At-Taqwa (piety, righteousness, etc.). So fear Me, O men of understanding....
    The Noble Quran
    In the English Language
    A Summarized Version of At-Tabari, Al-Qurtubi and Ibn Kathir
    with comments from Sahih Al-Bukhari
    By
    Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din Al-Hilali, Ph.D.
    Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan

    This is intereting because the "shahr" and ten days maybe some of the traces left from the original practice from before the corruption.

    Peace,

    Ayman

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      belH
      wrote on last edited by
      #1962

      Correction it's Zul Hijjah, Muharram, Safar and Rabi Awwal.

      92 Therefore, roam the land for four months and know that you will not escape God, and that God will humiliate the rejecters.

      Peace,
      If what you say is true, then the following can be concluded

      Wednesday 21 March 630 C.E. is the day when 1 st Zul Hijjah year 8 (the year when the prophet concord The restricted City, and I believe when chapter 9 was revealed) was.
      That tell us the following
      The first day of Ramadan was in Friday 22 December 629 C.E.
      The 4 restricted months started on spring time and ended on July 630 C.E.
      The Prophet had to fight during the Hot season, Which is true according to this verse in the same chapter 9

      Those who have remained are happy with their position of lagging behind the messenger of God, and they disliked striving with their money and lives in the cause of God; and they say Do not mobilize in the heat. Say The fire of Hell is much hotter, if they could only understand.
      981

      The above information are the most logic conclusions that are confirmed by the Quran.
      On the other hand, according to Ayman, Fasting was in July year 8 (Arabic Calender), therefore, verse 981 is not true (we have to cancel out); hint, the four restricted month would have ended in Fall or winter time and never in Hot season.

      To all, when Ayman (or even our Imam, Nabster) answers my two questions I posted for him before, please PM me so I can reply.
      My Questions were, how many days are in the 4 restricted months? or how many days or years are in the 30 months that in verse 46-15.

      May God bless the true believers, and guide those who are seeking his truth.
      Peace

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      • A Offline
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        ayman
        wrote on last edited by
        #1963

        Peace Belal,

        If what you say is true, then the following can be concluded
        Wednesday 21 March 630 C.E. is the day when 1 st Zul Hijjah year 8 (the year when the prophet concord The restricted City, and I believe when chapter 9 was revealed) was.
        That tell us the following
        The first day of Ramadan was in Friday 22 December 629 C.E.
        The 4 restricted months started on spring time and ended on July 630 C.E.
        The Prophet had to fight during the Hot season, Which is true according to this verse in the same chapter 9
        Those who have remained are happy with their position of lagging behind the messenger of God, and they disliked striving with their money and lives in the cause of God; and they say Do not mobilize in the heat. Say The fire of Hell is much hotter, if they could only understand.
        981
        The above information are the most logic conclusions that are confirmed by the Quran.
        On the other hand, according to Ayman, Fasting was in July year 8 (Arabic Calender), therefore, verse 981 is not true (we have to cancel out); hint, the four restricted month would have ended in Fall or winter time and never in Hot season.
        To all, when Ayman (or even our Imam, Nabster) answers my two questions I posted for him before, please PM me so I can reply.
        My Questions were, how many days are in the 4 restricted months? or how many days or years are in the 30 months that in verse 46-15.
        May God bless the true believers, and guide those who are seeking his truth.

        You are building dreams using thin air as walls. I think that this is so clear that anyone who doesn't see this deserves to be misguided.

        Peace,

        Ayman

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          belH
          wrote on last edited by
          #1964

          Peace Belal,

          You are building dreams using thin air as walls. I think that this is so clear that anyone who doesn't see this deserves to be misguided.

          Peace,

          Ayman

          rotfl

          OOOPS...Is that was a possible answer to your question?

          On the other hand, Belal and Eid act like they are all progressive and logical when in fact they are no different from Farida and Guest but instead of admitting the obvious, they claim to be following the great reading and then turn on their heels and run away from answering

          How your Ramadhan and your Hajj on the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and your restricted months (Muharam, Rajab, Dhu Al-Qi3da, Dhu Al-Hijjah, or whatever) are based purely on the god's words from the great reading and not on some unknown people or some guy named Umar arbitrarily deciding the order the months and the start of year 1 month 1 or on what the majority or Mullahs say or on Hadiths or any other such crap.

          Peace,

          Ayman

          I think it is...Now it is your turn to answer my questions...Take a deep breath and go for it.

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            guest
            wrote on last edited by
            #1965

            Peace Ayman,

            Yeah, I miss the comic relief too . But seriously, Farida and Guest at least have implicitly admitted the obvious, which is that they are blindly following "the companions", "the believers" or "the scholars" (whatever they imagine those things to be).

            Lies and more lies is your motto. You say believers are telling people to drink camel?s urine and dip flies in their food and now you are spreading lies about me of blindly following scholars. I hope you realize that these are bad behavior. You don?t even know the definition of believer. You have to be a believer to know a believer. I said ?The God tells us that we can accept the teaching of scholar provided it is in line with the Quran.? Now, what kind of deduction mechanism did you used to convert this statement into a blind follower?

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            • A Offline
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              ayman
              wrote on last edited by
              #1966

              Peace Guest,

              Lies and more lies is your motto. You say believers are telling people to drink camel?s urine and dip flies in their food and now you are spreading lies about me of blindly following scholars. I hope you realize that these are bad behavior. You don?t even know the definition of believer. You have to be a believer to know a believer. I said ?The God tells us that we can accept the teaching of scholar provided it is in line with the Quran.? Now, what kind of deduction mechanism did you used to convert this statement into a blind follower?

              Do you suffer from somekind of inferiority complex? Instead of mindlessly repeating "I am not a blind follower of scholars" and "I am a believer" to bolster your self image, just do it. No intelligent person cares if you say a hundred times "I am a believer and Ayman is not". Your argument style is like that of a 5 year old child.

              Which of your moronic scholars (name them and tell us exactly what they said) and which of their false teachings on the timing are in line with the great reading? Did the great reading tell you any of the following

              1. To arbitrarily go on your so-called Hajj from the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hjjah?
              2. To arbitrarily choose months 11, 12, 1, and 7 or 11,12,1,2 or 12,1,2,3 (as Belal baselessly assumes) or 10,11,12,1 or 9,10,11,12 or whatever as restricted.
              3. To have the placement of your so-called Ramadhan dependent on arbitrarily choosing the year 622CE to start the calendar.
              4. To have the placement of your so-called Ramadhan dependent on arbitrarily choosing any haphazard month (not even the month of the supposed Hijra) as month 1?
              5. To have the placement of your so-called Ramadhan dependent on an arbitrary order of the months?
              6. To take the god's word "ramadhan/scorching heat" as meaningless info that doesn't reflect the truth about the timing?

              You and Belal and all sectarians who claim to follow the great reading will continue to expose your hypocrisy unless you can at least address the above 6 issues so that you can answer the following question

              How your Ramadhan and your Hajj on the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and your restricted months (Muharam, Rajab, Dhu Al-Qi3da, Dhu Al-Hijjah, or whatever) are based purely on the god's words from the great reading and not on some unknown people or some guy named Umar arbitrarily deciding the order the months and the start of year 1 month 1 or on what the majority or Mullahs say or on Hadiths or any other such crap.

              I know that even a billion sectarians can't answer so please don't do like Belal and don't dream up a bunch of idiotic nonsense full of baseless assumptions that fails to address any of the above issues and therefore cannot answer the question.

              Peace,

              Ayman

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                belH
                wrote on last edited by
                #1967

                Peace All,

                I know that even a billion sectarians can't answer so please don't do like Belal and don't dream up a bunch of idiotic nonsense full of baseless assumptions that fails to address any of the above issues and therefore cannot answer the question.

                Ayman, calm down...Be constructive when criticizing so we can all learn.
                My assumptions and conclusion are based on Quran ( 9-81 tell us that the four restricted months ended around Summer Time) and science (using the date converter to identify the season in which the four restricted moon cycles and Ramadan occurred when chapter 9 was revealed).

                Before I follow any opinion I examine it using the Quran and other sound data...Therefore, I examined Brother Layth opinion. The result is "Layth's Opinion does not violate the Quran or the scientific data, and yours violates both...does that makes you angry enough to call me names?

                I'm still waiting for your answer to my two questions.

                Peace all

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                • Q Offline
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                  Q_student
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #1968

                  Peace All,

                  ...does that makes you angry enough to call me names?

                  I'm still waiting for your answer to my two questions.

                  Peace all

                  Peace

                  Peace All,

                  ...does that makes you angry enough to call me names?

                  A common methodology adopted by anyone who lacks arguements

                  I'm still waiting for your answer to my two questions.

                  Which you will never get probably.
                  Regards

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                  • B Offline
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                    belH
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #1969

                    Which you will never get probably.
                    Regards

                    Peace,
                    Let us hope he will be brave enough to do answer.
                    May God Bless

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                      noble
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #1970

                      Peace Bro Ayman,
                      Regarding some of the idiotic comments made by the slanderer, 981 refers to the battle of Tabuq to which the Prophet led an expedition in October.
                      In that year there was a drought, abnormal heat, and famine, this is well documented...
                      since some of these who post here will only believe "infallible" muslim scholars, this is what Ibn Kathir Tafsir says about it

                      deep breath
                      "
                      981 Those who stayed away (from Tabuk expedition) rejoiced in their staying behind the Messenger of
                      All?h; they hated to strive and fight with their properties and their lives in the Cause of All?h, and
                      they said "March not forth in the heat." Say "The Fire of Hell is more intense in heat", if only they
                      could understand!

                      9117 All?h has forgiven the Prophet (SAW), the Muhajir?n (Muslim emigrants who left their homes and
                      came to Al-Madinah) and the Ansar (Muslims of Al-Madinah) who followed him (Muhammad SAW) in
                      the time of distress (Tab?k expedition, etc.), after the hearts of a party of them had nearly deviated
                      (from the Right Path), but He accepted their repentance. Certainly, He is unto them full of Kindness,
                      Most Merciful.

                      9118 And (He did forgive also) the three left (i.e. he did not give his judgement in their case, and their case was suspended for All?h's
                      Decision) till for them the earth, vast as it is, was straitened and their ownselves were straitened to
                      them, and they perceived that there is no fleeing from All?h, and no refuge but with Him. Then, He
                      accepted their repentance, that they might repent (unto Him). Verily, All?h is the One Who accepts
                      repentance, Most Merciful.

                      Battle of Tabuk

                      Mujahid and several others said, "This Ayah was revealed concerning the battle of Tabuk.
                      They left for that battle during a period of distress.
                      It was a year with little rain, intense heat and scarcity of supplies and water.''
                      Qatadah said, "They went to Ash-Sham during the year of the battle of Tabuk at a time when the heat was intense.
                      Allah knew how hard things were, and they suffered great hardship. We were told that two men used to divide a date between themselves. Some of them would take turns in sucking on a date and drinking water, then give it to another man to suck on. Allah forgave them and allowed them to come back from that battle.''
                      Ibn Jarir reported that Abdullah bin Abbas said that Umar bin Al-Khattab was reminded of the battle of distress (Tabuk) and Umar said, "We went with the Messenger of Allah in the intense heat for Tabuk. We camped at a place in which we were stricken so hard by thirst that we thought that our necks would be severed. One of us used to go out in search of water and did not return until he feared that his neck would be severed. One would slaughter his camel, squeeze its intestines and drink its content, placing whatever was left on his kidney. Abu Bakr As-Siddiq said, O Allah's Messenger! Allah, the Exalted and Most Honored, has always accepted your invocation, so invoke Allah for us.' The Prophet said, (Would you like me to do that) Abu Bakr said, Yes.' The Prophet raised his hands and did not put them down until rain fell from the sky in abundance. It rained and then stopped raining for a while, then rained again, so they filled their containers. We went out to see where the rain reached and found that it did not rain beyond our camp.''' Ibn Jarir said about Allah's statement, 9117 , 9118.

                      "
                      As for the time for the Battle of Tabuk, it can be found out from several sources that it was in October, so not in the Summer!!!...

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                      • Q Offline
                        Q Offline
                        Q_student
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #1971

                        Peace Bro Ayman,
                        Regarding some of the idiotic comments made by the slanderer, 981 refers to the battle of Tabuq to which the Prophet led an expedition in October.
                        In that year there was a drought, abnormal heat, and famine, this is well documented...
                        since some of these who post here will only believe "infallible" muslim scholars, this is what Ibn Kathir Tafsir says about it

                        deep breath
                        "
                        981 Those who stayed away (from Tabuk expedition) rejoiced in their staying behind the Messenger of
                        All?h; they hated to strive and fight with their properties and their lives in the Cause of All?h, and
                        they said "March not forth in the heat." Say "The Fire of Hell is more intense in heat", if only they
                        could understand!

                        9117 All?h has forgiven the Prophet (SAW), the Muhajir?n (Muslim emigrants who left their homes and
                        came to Al-Madinah) and the Ansar (Muslims of Al-Madinah) who followed him (Muhammad SAW) in
                        the time of distress (Tab?k expedition, etc.), after the hearts of a party of them had nearly deviated
                        (from the Right Path), but He accepted their repentance. Certainly, He is unto them full of Kindness,
                        Most Merciful.

                        9118 And (He did forgive also) the three left (i.e. he did not give his judgement in their case, and their case was suspended for All?h's
                        Decision) till for them the earth, vast as it is, was straitened and their ownselves were straitened to
                        them, and they perceived that there is no fleeing from All?h, and no refuge but with Him. Then, He
                        accepted their repentance, that they might repent (unto Him). Verily, All?h is the One Who accepts
                        repentance, Most Merciful.

                        Battle of Tabuk

                        Mujahid and several others said, "This Ayah was revealed concerning the battle of Tabuk.
                        They left for that battle during a period of distress.
                        It was a year with little rain, intense heat and scarcity of supplies and water.''
                        Qatadah said, "They went to Ash-Sham during the year of the battle of Tabuk at a time when the heat was intense.
                        Allah knew how hard things were, and they suffered great hardship. We were told that two men used to divide a date between themselves. Some of them would take turns in sucking on a date and drinking water, then give it to another man to suck on. Allah forgave them and allowed them to come back from that battle.''
                        Ibn Jarir reported that Abdullah bin Abbas said that Umar bin Al-Khattab was reminded of the battle of distress (Tabuk) and Umar said, "We went with the Messenger of Allah in the intense heat for Tabuk. We camped at a place in which we were stricken so hard by thirst that we thought that our necks would be severed. One of us used to go out in search of water and did not return until he feared that his neck would be severed. One would slaughter his camel, squeeze its intestines and drink its content, placing whatever was left on his kidney. Abu Bakr As-Siddiq said, O Allah's Messenger! Allah, the Exalted and Most Honored, has always accepted your invocation, so invoke Allah for us.' The Prophet said, (Would you like me to do that) Abu Bakr said, Yes.' The Prophet raised his hands and did not put them down until rain fell from the sky in abundance. It rained and then stopped raining for a while, then rained again, so they filled their containers. We went out to see where the rain reached and found that it did not rain beyond our camp.''' Ibn Jarir said about Allah's statement, 9117 , 9118.

                        "
                        As for the time for the Battle of Tabuk, it can be found out from several sources that it was in October, so not in the Summer!!!...

                        Peace
                        Do not jump into the lap of fabricated history and ahadith.
                        How come now they have become "reliable" ??
                        Contradiction /cotnradiction /conradiction between words and action.If someone else quotes from Tabari ,will you accept it ? First decide it .
                        Regards

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                        • A Offline
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                          ayman
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #1972

                          Peace Belal,

                          Ayman, calm down...Be constructive when criticizing so we can all learn.
                          My assumptions and conclusion are based on Quran ( 9-81 tell us that the four restricted months ended around Summer Time) and science (using the date converter to identify the season in which the four restricted moon cycles and Ramadan occurred when chapter 9 was revealed).

                          If you want constructive criticism then here is the most constructive thing anyone here ever gave you Don't start from the sectarian calendar and desperetly work backwards to justify it and instead start from a pure mind free of preconceptions.

                          981 doesn't say that the four restricted months ended around summer time. Can you please copy and paste the passage that says that the event in 981 came immediately after 91-3 and that everything in the 77 passages between 91-3 and 981 we can just forget about? The fact is that all we know is that 981 happened after 91-3 and was in the hot time of the year and from 986 that a passage was revealed around that time. We don't know if it is a few months after or one year after or 5 years after 91-3. So you are making a baseless assumption.

                          The other baseless assumption you are making is that the restricted "months" are the sectarian restricted months but starting from Zul Hijjah. So you know that the sectarian calendar is false and yet you hypocritically continue to base your nonsense on it.

                          The other nonsense in your argument is that you conveniently forget that the so-called Islamic calendar was not even established at that time. The months in the Islamic calendar are 100% dependent on when month 1 started and the year where the new era was made to start, all of which were arbitrarily decided later supposedly at the time of Umar. You have no idea when the so-called Islamic Calendar was established and even if it was established earlier this has zero impact on the fact that it is arbitrary and still the months will depend on month 1 and the start of the new era and the haphazard order of the months. So THREE completely arbitrary and manmade factors.

                          Again, EVERYTHING that you said is based on starting from the preconception of the sectarian calendar and then working backwards. You are not starting from the great reading with pure intentions.

                          You should have been able to see all this on your own if you had a little bit of intelligence instead of asking me to spoonfeed you what has been repeated on this thread time after time again. It is not my fault that you are slow.

                          Before I follow any opinion I examine it using the Quran and other sound data...Therefore, I examined Brother Layth opinion. The result is "Layth's Opinion does not violate the Quran or the scientific data, and yours violates both...does that makes you angry enough to call me names?

                          Again, you seem unable to read previous posts

                          http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg223683#msg223683

                          I'm still waiting for your answer to my two questions.

                          I already answered every question you and anyone else had on this thread. On the other hand, you and none of those following the sectarians' timing on this thread have answered my ONE question.

                          Peace,

                          Ayman

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                          • A Offline
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                            ayman
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #1973

                            Peace brother Nabeel,

                            Regarding some of the idiotic comments made by the slanderer, 981 refers to the battle of Tabuq to which the Prophet led an expedition in October.
                            In that year there was a drought, abnormal heat, and famine, this is well documented...
                            since some of these who post here will only believe "infallible" muslim scholars, this is what Ibn Kathir Tafsir says about it

                            I wouldn't put any weight on Islamic history, especially the dating of all its events. All the dates were messed up and pushed forward by years so that several generations later people can claim that their forefathers, saints and bygone kings fought with the prophet or were his companions or his relatives. Chapter 9 itself destroys Belal's baseless claim that 981 happened right after 91-3. All he needed to do was to read the 77 verses in between and see all the other events that happened in between (for example the battle of Hunayin in 925). Belal is following nothing but "thann"/conjecture.

                            Peace,

                            Ayman

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                              guest
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #1974

                              Peace Ayman,

                              Do you suffer from somekind of inferiority complex?

                              I was responding to your false accusation. This is my God given right. People who are against God would most certainly take that right away from good people. Ayman, stop acting like a child, improve your behavior, and hold fast to God?s light.

                              Instead of mindlessly repeating "I am not a blind follower of scholars" and "I am a believer" to bolster your self image, just do it. No intelligent person cares if you say a hundred times "I am a believer and Ayman is not". Your argument style is like that of a 5 year old child.

                              The above quote is very interesting since you are equating repeating behavior to 5 year old child. Now, how many time have you repeated this quote of yours my dear Watson ?How your Ramadhan and your Hajj on the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and your restricted months (Muharam, Rajab, Dhu Al-Qi3da, Dhu Al-Hijjah, or whatever) are based purely on the god's words from the great reading and not on some unknown people or some guy named Umar arbitrarily deciding the order the months and the start of year 1 month 1 or on what the majority or Mullahs say or on Hadiths or any other such crap.?, 5 times, 10 times, or 20 times? The answer is numerous times. Therefore, by your own definition, you are a 5 years old child, who is repeating the same thing mindlessly. You have condemned yourself, ignorantly.

                              It will be very interesting to play chess with you because it would take only few moves to defeat you (checkmate) since you are incapable of thinking ahead even a single move (as demonstrated by your quote above). Ayman, truly you do make my day. Please keep it up. Thank you.

                              Which of your moronic scholars (name them and tell us exactly what they said) and which of their false teachings on the timing are in line with the great reading?

                              I have many scholars but I will just name one for you Prophet Muhammad. And you are proudly calling Prophet Muhammad and his follower morons. This is a despicable act of yours. Initially people used their innermost thought to accept Prophet Muhammad?s message as there were no written Quran to go around. Quran was not canonized yet. You and your followers must be very proud for labeling Prophet as a moron.

                              Did the great reading tell you any of the following

                              1. To arbitrarily go on your so-called Hajj from the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hjjah?
                              2. To arbitrarily choose months 11, 12, 1, and 7 or 11,12,1,2 or 12,1,2,3 (as Belal baselessly assumes) or 10,11,12,1 or 9,10,11,12 or whatever as restricted.
                              3. To have the placement of your so-called Ramadhan dependent on arbitrarily choosing the year 622CE to start the calendar.
                              4. To have the placement of your so-called Ramadhan dependent on arbitrarily choosing any haphazard month (not even the month of the supposed Hijra) as month 1?
                              5. To have the placement of your so-called Ramadhan dependent on an arbitrary order of the months?
                              6. To take the god's word "ramadhan/scorching heat" as meaningless info that doesn't reflect the truth about the timing?

                              My dear Watson, we are not debating my theory here. We are debating you theory. Why don?t you have the capability to keep this in mind when you are writing and asking questions? Please put you theory in the above format (i.e. 1. your marker, 2. when you start Ramadan, 3. how you count years, etc) and I will (God willing) disprove it again via contradiction. And to show contradiction in your theory is merely a child play.

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                                siki
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #1975

                                I have many scholars but I will just name one for you Prophet Muhammad. And you are proudly calling Prophet Muhammad and his follower morons. This is a despicable act of yours. Initially people used their innermost thought to accept Prophet Muhammad?s message as there were no written Quran to go around. Quran was not canonized yet. You and your followers must be very proud for labeling Prophet as a moron.

                                Will you kindly share the DVD with all of us, which prophet Mohammad (pbuh) passed on to you for the benifit of mankind?

                                siki

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                                  noble
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #1976

                                  Peace Bro Ayman,
                                  As a response to what is being said...
                                  I do not think the word scholar/s convey the meaning alim/ulama as it is.
                                  In fact the derogatory word in english for muslim alim is (among other) cleric.
                                  It will be better to think in terms of Alim, as in my view, most certainly no Prophet was
                                  a Scholar in the western sense...
                                  beside, Prophets have a special standing, in that they do not produce works of scholastic
                                  interest (this is what scholars do), they in fact receive Revelations from Allah, so the exemplifying a Prophet to a Scholar is clearly incorrect.
                                  As for the Alims like the ones who really matter (cf the one who outsmarted Ifrit in Solomon's and Queen of Saba story)
                                  these you will not meet in a Jama'a, a conventional Library, a common Masjid/Jama', or a sectarian gathering I am afraid and certain of, and am sure they keep to their own, if there are still people of this caliber, and I wish there are, they do get things (ghaib things by Allah's leave that solve problems), done.
                                  As a conclusion, comparing a Prophet to an Alim is not appropriate, whatever the definition, as the functions are different.
                                  Using this argument as an excuse in the current argument to undermine a line of thought is therefore (gently put) misleading...

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                                    Q_student
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #1977

                                    Peace Bro Ayman,
                                    As a response to what is being said...
                                    I do not think the word scholar/s convey the meaning alim/ulama as it is.
                                    In fact the derogatory word in english for muslim alim is (among other) cleric.
                                    It will be better to think in terms of Alim, as in my view, most certainly no Prophet was
                                    a Scholar in the western sense...
                                    beside, Prophets have a special standing, in that they do not produce works of scholastic
                                    interest (this is what scholars do), they in fact receive Revelations from Allah, so the exemplifying a Prophet to a Scholar is clearly incorrect.
                                    As for the Alims like the ones who really matter (cf the one who outsmarted Ifrit in Solomon's and Queen of Saba story)
                                    these you will not meet in a Jama'a, a conventional Library, a common Masjid, or a sectarian gathering I am afraid and certain of, and am sure they keep to their own, if there are still people of this caliber, and I wish there are, they do get things (ghaib things by Allah's leave that solve problems), done.
                                    As a conclusion, comparing a Prophet to an Alim is not appropriate, whatever the definition, as the functions are different.
                                    Using this argument as an excuse in the current argument to undermine a line of thought is therefore (gently put) misleading...

                                    Islam is not in need of westrized concepts but of its own concepts. We would like to believe in Umar ,Uthman RA instead of David ,Richard ,Lewnski etc but
                                    Birds of a feather flock together.

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                                      noble
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #1978

                                      Peace,
                                      in my view, the western scholars constrain themselves to the realm of the Seen (athahir), whereas a true muslim Alim will endeavor to look at reality from a more extended view, including the Unseen (ghaib/baattin).
                                      but if one wishes to use the word Alim loosely, there are levels of Ilm, from the Seen to the Unseen, and it is better to not be exclusive in the definitions, as the Quran does not seem to be, as in the Ayat "... above every one who who is endowed with 'Ilm, (Allah makes) one more Alim (knowledgeable) - and I dispute that this definition is only about Deen as the sectarian religious scholars want to force feed...
                                      so yes, that also includes john, joshua, joaquim and michael, together with umar, reza, abu hanifa and ayman

                                      Islam is not in need of westrized concepts but of its own concepts. We would like to believe in Umar ,Uthman RA instead of David ,Richard ,Lewnski etc but
                                      Birds of a feather flock together.

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                                        guest
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #1979

                                        Will you kindly share the DVD with all of us, which prophet Mohammad (pbuh) passed on to you for the benifit of mankind?

                                        siki

                                        DVD is 1995 technology. Therefore, Prophet Muhammad couldn?t have passed DVD to us. As usual, this is another of your illogical and contradictory statement.

                                        DVD as an industry standard was announced in November 1995 and backed by major players in the CE, IT and movie industry. The first players appeared in Japan in November, 1996, followed by U.S. players in March, 1997. To produce DVD players, one needs to license a range of patents, owned by different companies. A number of these companies (Philips, Sony, Matsushita and Toshiba) have decided to license the necessary patents through one licensing agent. Philips has been selected to take up this administrative role. Matshusita, was the company mainly responsible for the development of DVD as it is today. Philips, one of the first companies to make CD players, was the first to make a DVD player. The invention of DVD cannot be attributed to one person or one company.

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                                          Q_student
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #1980

                                          Peace,
                                          in my view, the western scholars constrain themselves to the realm of the Seen (athahir), whereas a true muslim Alim will endeavor to look at reality from a more extended view, including the Unseen (ghaib/baattin).
                                          but if one wishes to use the word Alim loosely, there are levels of Ilm, from the Seen to the Unseen, and it is better to not be exclusive in the definitions, as the Quran does not seem to be, as in the Ayat "... above every one who who is endowed with 'Ilm, (Allah makes) one more Alim (knowledgeable) - and I dispute that this definition is only about Deen as the sectarian religious scholars want to force feed...
                                          so yes, that also includes john, joshua, joaquim and michael, together with umar, reza, abu hanifa and ayman

                                          Ayman? How ? a person who does not know abc of Quranic language ,you are considering him among Ulamaa.Look at our discussion of diptotes. Ask him what a diptote is and whether if the word Ramadhan is used as a diptote in the Quran or not.
                                          He will run away as usual which is his very obvious methodology.
                                          Regards

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