Lets Make a Qur'an! (Translation) Lets make a Translation!
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Peace be Unto those within this thread and around this thread!
My username is FreedomStands!
www.islamawakened.com/quran has lots of translations of the Qur'an, but when I use quotes from there, many people object to the translations and bother me about it, so I would like us to join together in this thread and discuss verse by verse the translation of the Qur'an and perhaps we can even make a translation in the process that most of you all approve of. I don't mind if the translation is close to being a literal word for word translation, or one that gives some implications at least in commentary, or that we produce a commentary along with it. The Qur'an doesn't have that many verses afterall, and it is possible that we at least start translating it together.
Lets begin shall we? Just one verse, we'll do it in the traditional order just for the sake of ease, then each of you can comment on this verse and how you would like to translate it and what you think it means and whatever else.
I wouldn't not want any interference though from outside ideas like the Hadith or trying to find codes or whatever else, just a straightforward word for word translation of the meaning of the verse, and then gently we can go through the whole Qur'an together.
I hope this thread picks up activity, and you all invite your friends and family to participate, investigating the grammar with sources you prefer, and able to explain and justify your choices.
We begin with something of contention possibly with the very first words
Almost all translations at http//www.islamawakened.com/quran/1/1/default.htm agree "In the Name of Allah"
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp Find the word here
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm Find the root here
and
http//www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/index_en.php
Lane's Lexicon http//www.tyndalearchive.com/tabs/lane/
Assyrian Dictionary http//www.aina.org/cad.html
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/LLhome.htm
http//www.lexilogos.com/english/arabic_dictionary.htm
http//www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/collection?collection=Perseuscorpusperseus,work,Lane,%20An%20Arabic-English%20Lexicon
So lets begin! You go first! Offer up your translations and please provide the sources and explanations for your conclusions!
I'm copy pasting the transliteration from the website, so if that is off a little, please don't mind, I'm concerned mainly with translating the words into English and to see you all develop a translation for every verse of the Qur'an!
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Arabic
Transliteration Bismi Allahi alrrahmani alrraheemi -
By name of Allah, the Almighty, the Merciful;
Thank you. There we go, someone helped with the first line, thank you so much Arman, but who else has anything to say?
The ancient word for "name" meant "glory" your name was your "reputation" or your "glory" what you were known for, your repute, basically an epithet, this is your "epithet" it is what you are known for or describes some quality of yours.
I think the word "name" confuses lots of people, even when they say "In the name of Jesus", what does "In the name" even mean to people today? It seems to make no sense to many people and they just say it blindly without understanding what the word used to mean to the ancient people. In ancient times "names" were not just random sounds that people attributed to people the way we use names now, but the "names" were words that had meanings and were descriptive.
To say "In the Name Of" was to say "By the Glory of" or "By the Power of" like "By the Power of Jesus" or "I invoke the Power of Jesus" so in the case of the Qur'an it was basically saying "Invoking the Power of Allah" or "By Allah's Reputation which is Power that I am invoking".
So how do we best get that meaning across? Which so many today do not seem to understand, as they don't know about the ancient languages or how they used to operate at all and what "In the name of" meant.
Do you have an understanding perhaps of what "In the name of" is supposed to mean or means? Most people say that completely blindly or without any understanding of what it means, just that it is repeated lots. Before we eat, what does it mean to say "In the name of Allah"? It really means "By the Power of Allah" and is meant to be a praise, an understanding, and a blessing.
Thus is it intuitively understood, and so is it continuously used in this manner even though the English words do not make sense "In the name of".
So "By the Glory of" seems to give a little more of that flavor, since the "name" was a persons "glory" or "reputation" or "attribute" and the "attribute" of "Allah" is "Ultimate Power".
A meaning based on the implied usage and implied meaning might be something like "By the Power of Allah" "In Allah's Power" or "In Allah's Glory" though the Glory word takes it further away in meaning or understanding from the implication of the power being invoked.
"Invoking the glory of Allah" or "Invoking the power of Allah" are what is occurring it seems and how it is generally used by people even to this day, so even though it is literally saying "In/By the Name of Allah" or "In/By the Glory of Allah" or "In/By the Reputation of Allah", such is confusing or not really capturing the meaning likely implied or how it is used even today to empower or activate a prayer.
"By the Power of Allah" I think gives somewhat more of the impression of what is happening here, and a lesser version that keeps more to the meaning of the term "Name" would be "By the Glory of Allah" or "By the Glorious Reputation/Epithet of Allah", the latter use of "Epithet" then brings attention to the word Allah as that Epithet, and Allah itself has implied meanings with its root of "Power" "Beyond" "Ultimate" and basically means "The Ultimate Power Far Beyond Everything" though in the minds of people "Beyond" and "Far" might imply distance, when the "Beyond" also meant just above or over or around the corner or "on the other side" meaning directly behind reality or "on the other side" or the "veil/curtain of reality". "Ultimate" encompasses "Beyond" in it, and "Power" was the general implication in the 'LH (' is the glottal stop or "Uh" sound) root. Other things associated with the root are Highest, Utmost, Extreme/Most in every sense.
There is really no such thing as a "proper name" as in a "meaningless collection of sounds" but Allah itself was an epithet for what is being spoken about.
Other senses included were "The" as in "THE" or "What IS" and "Being" as well as "One" or "THE ONE" or "THAT ONE"
Other senses included "Worshiped" "Causing Worship" "Worthy of Worship"
The obvious sense is also "God" which is how it was used and continues to be used.
So with all these senses it would be something like "THE ONE AND ONLY Awesome Mighty Powerful GOD that is the ULTIMATE UTMOST POWER Way Beyond anything in every sense but right around the corner and around everything and behind, that Overcomes everything and all people in Worship and is Worshiped and is the only one worthy of Worship"
So another meaning could be, "By/In the Power of the Ultimate Power" or "By/In the Glory of the Ultimate Power". I think In is actually confusing and not how the invocation is generally used, though it is true that we are doing so "in the power of", always, I think it is more invoking the power of Allah, invoking a blessing, which is how it is used in relation to food for example.
"By the power, of the Ultimate Power (Allah)" so if one prefers "By the Power of God" or "By the Power of Allah" really there isn't even an "of" in there probably, just a directly "By the Power (that is) God" or "By the Power Allah" or "By the Power (that is the) Ultimate Power".
"In name Allah" is the "literal translation" with things in parenthesis removed according to www.islamawakened.com/quran
The idea of "name" or "shem" or more specifically "Ha'Shem" meaning "The Name" was an extremely important concept in the Semitic language concept and among the Jews and then the Christians.
Jesus was considered one who "Contained the name" or was "Given the Glory" or was "The Word Clothes in Flesh" and this had a Biblical basis, since the Bible says "My name is in his (the angel of YWHW) so you must obey him" and it makes it pretty clear that "name" or "glory" here meant directly POWER and DIRECT CONTROL, that basically God was directly controlling this being, is basically possessing the being to be the direct vessel to do God's will (though everything is also God's will, the one that CONTAINS THE NAME is meant to be a "Representative/Messenger" or God).
Thus the Qur'an itself, may be implied as the Herald of Allah, containing the Name and written In the Name. Which basically means by the direct power of Allah these are the words of Allah and Allah is going to be speaking now directly. The statement is incredibly powerful if people understand the implications of what is being said, which the people of the past may have been closer to understanding due to knowing what "The Name" implied, and what it implied was direct power and control. If God's Name was said to be in something, it meant God's animating spirit or spirit of inspiration and direct control, which is what the Qur'an is supposed to contain in its words.
The implications are tremendous, and to capture these implications in the translation may be somewhat helpful to people, but to do so in an eloquent and concise way without making it overly wordy and with too much interpolation like the Al-Muntakhab translation.
So my suggestion for the first words, to capture the important meaning of the term, is probably "By the Power Allah" or "By Allah's Power" or "By the Power of the Ultimate Power" or "By the Power of the Ultimate One" or "By the Power of the Ultimate". "By the Power (that is) Allah".
I will write more about the next words, but tell me what you think please! (My computer might freeze that is why I'm sending it before writing more!)
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excellent new insight/ information.
Thank you so much! Your support is very helpful to me!
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excellent new insight/ information.
Also congratulations on reaching your 100th post on this website!
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Just my opinion as i have no knowledge of Arabic.
To say "By/In the name" of someone it probably means "By the power granted by" someone. For instance, a politician could say "In the name of the people, I do this and that.", which actually means "By the power granted by the people (who voted for me)" and, as such, that person could do something on behalf of the people.
Now, if we were to use the sample I gave above, it COULD mean "By the power granted by Allah." PLEASE NOTE that I said COULD.
So, IMO, could the actual message be something in the realms of "By the Grace/Blessing of Allah" instead? I personally don't think we have received any power to do anything on Allah's behalf. We can ask for His blessing to do something (and certainly not for doing the wrong stuff!).
My 2 cents ...
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Salamun Alaikum.
I am not in agreement of the translation "By the Power (that is) Allah".
First of all the goal needs to be confirmed ? are we translating or interpreting?
True that any kind of translation involves a certain degree of interpretation, but per my understanding the first goal of a translator should be to reproduce the experience of the original reading with the least possible modification possible.There are clearly other Arabic words for ?power? but the author of Qur?an did not choose those words. The word ?ism? was chosen, the closest literal meaning of which is ?name?.
While "By the Power (that is) ?" may be a valid interpretation of the term ?By the name of ...? - it is NOT the only acceptable interpretation. The other possible interpretations include on behalf of; on the part of; by the authority of; In the represented or assumed character of etc.
The original Arabic term ?bismi..? may also be interpreted as any of the above. The job of a diligent translator is to keep open the possibility of as many interpretations the original term supports as possible ? not to impose the one interpretation (s)he personally prefers. The reader should have the maximum flexibility of choosing from the various possible interpretations the original text offers.
Furthermore the term ?name? serves an extremely important purpose in the very first verse of Qur?an. It signifies that the term ?Allah? is only a name. One can know Allah in any other name ? Elohim, Brahman, God, Father and so on. Just like a scientific dissertation could start with? ?Let X be the value of such and such?? from which the readers understand that X is merely a name assigned to the concept to be discussed in the paper ? ?By the name of Allah, the Almighty, the Merciful? signifies that the book discusses the Almighty and the Merciful Elohim/Brahman/God/Father by the name ?Allah?. Thus ?By the name of Allah? stands out as the perfect beginning of the logically coherent discussion that is going to follow.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Just my opinion as i have no knowledge of Arabic.
To say "By/In the name" of someone it probably means "By the power granted by" someone. For instance, a politician could say "In the name of the people, I do this and that.", which actually means "By the power granted by the people (who voted for me)" and, as such, that person could do something on behalf of the people.
Now, if we were to use the sample I gave above, it COULD mean "By the power granted by Allah." PLEASE NOTE that I said COULD.
So, IMO, could the actual message be something in the realms of "By the Grace/Blessing of Allah" instead? I personally don't think we have received any power to do anything on Allah's behalf. We can ask for His blessing to do something (and certainly not for doing the wrong stuff!).
My 2 cents ...
Your 2 cents are worth far more than 2 cents! They are what I was suggesting as well and are actually accurate to the apparent intention of the saying when one looks at the historical meaning as I explained in my post above which I hope you can find some time to read as well.
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Salamun Alaikum.
I am not in agreement of the translation "By the Power (that is) Allah".
First of all the goal needs to be confirmed ? are we translating or interpreting?
True that any kind of translation involves a certain degree of interpretation, but per my understanding the first goal of a translator should be to reproduce the experience of the original reading with the least possible modification possible.There are clearly other Arabic words for ?power? but the author of Qur?an did not choose those words. The word ?ism? was chosen, the closest literal meaning of which is ?name?.
While "By the Power (that is) ?" may be a valid interpretation of the term ?By the name of ...? - it is NOT the only acceptable interpretation. The other possible interpretations include on behalf of; on the part of; by the authority of; In the represented or assumed character of etc.
The original Arabic term ?bismi..? may also be interpreted as any of the above. The job of a diligent translator is to keep open the possibility of as many interpretations the original term supports as possible ? not to impose the one interpretation (s)he personally prefers. The reader should have the maximum flexibility of choosing from the various possible interpretations the original text offers.
Furthermore the term ?name? serves an extremely important purpose in the very first verse of Qur?an. It signifies that the term ?Allah? is only a name. One can know Allah in any other name ? Elohim, Brahman, God, Father and so on. Just like a scientific dissertation could start with? ?Let X be the value of such and such?? from which the readers understand that X is merely a name assigned to the concept to be discussed in the paper ? ?By the name of Allah, the Almighty, the Merciful? signifies that the book discusses the Almighty and the Merciful Elohim/Brahman/God/Father by the name ?Allah?. Thus ?By the name of Allah? stands out as the perfect beginning of the logically coherent discussion that is going to follow.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
ArmanI agree with what you wrote and the variety of interpretations. What I find lacking generally though is the understanding of the meaning, so if power is far too extreme from straying from the literal meaning of the words, then the term "name" has other meanings, which are no longer appropriately captured in the English usage of the word "name". Today it almost means to people an arbitrary designation of a sound combination, rather than an epithet or having a particular meaning or reference as the ancient reference to "names" did.
This sense has recently been lost in English, and so people when reading that, do so without understanding the implications that you and I have been elaborating on.
Turning In to By is a slight improvement though, and gives some feeling of something being invoked or called upon more possibly in English "By God" rather than "In God", the By implying a form of action somewhat more than In does today.
English etymology should not be neglected either in finding good words to translate to, but sadly "name" has lots its meaning to most people, and its fine if such commentary is relegated to commentaries few might right, but I thought it would be ideal to bring the words closer to the old meanings rather than the modern literal translations of the word when the word has lots its meaning in English largely. Originally it had the same meaning though
"name (n.) Look up name at Dictionary.com
Old English nama, noma "name, reputation," from Proto-Germanic *namon (cognates Old Saxon namo, Old Frisian nama, Old High German namo, German Name, Middle Dutch name, Dutch naam, Old Norse nafn, Gothic namo "name", from PIE *nomn- (cognates Sanskrit nama; Avestan nama; Greek onoma, onyma; Latin nomen; Old Church Slavonic ime, genitive imene; Russian imya; Old Irish ainm; Old Welsh anu "name".Meaning "famous person" is from 1610s. Meaning "one's reputation" is from c.1300. As a modifier meaning "well-known," first attested 1938. Name brand is from 1944; name-calling attested from 1846; name-dropper first recorded 1947. name-tag is from 1903; name-child attested from 1845. The name of the game "the essential thing or quality" is from 1966; to have one's name in lights "be a famous performer" is from 1929."
"glory (n.) Look up glory at Dictionary.com
c.1200, gloire "the splendor of God or Christ; praise offered to God, worship," from Old French glorie (11c., Modern French gloire), from Latin gloria "fame, renown, great praise or honor," of uncertain origin.Greek doxa "expectation" (Homer), later "opinion, fame," and ultimately "glory," was used in Biblical writing to translate a Hebrew word which had a sense of "brightness, splendor, magnificence, majesty," and this subsequently was translated as Latin gloria, which has colored that word's meaning in most European tongues. Wuldor was an Old English word used in this sense. Sense of "magnificence" is c.1300 in English. Meaning "worldly honor, fame, renown" of "the kingdom of Heaven," and of "one who is a source of glory" are from mid-14c. Latin also had gloriola "a little fame." Glory days was in use by 1970."
renown (n.) Look up renown at Dictionary.com
c.1300, from Anglo-French renoun, Old French renon "renown, fame, reputation," from renomer "make famous," from re- "repeatedly" (see re-) + nomer "to name," from Latin nominare "to name" (see nominate). The Middle English verb reknouen "make known, acknowledge" has been assimilated to the noun via renowned. In old German university slang, a reknowner (German renommist) was "a boaster, a swaggerer."
renowned (adj.) Look up renowned at Dictionary.com
"celebrated, famous," late 14c., past participle adjective from renown.
fame (n.) Look up fame at Dictionary.com
early 13c., "character attributed to someone;" late 13c., "celebrity, renown," from Old French fame "fame, reputation, renown, rumor" (12c.), from Latin fama "talk, rumor, report; reputation, public opinion; renown, good reputation," but also "ill-fame, scandal, reproach," from PIE root *bha- (2) "to speak, tell, say" (cognates Sanskrit bhanati "speaks;" Latin fari "to say," fabula "narrative, account, tale, story;" Armenian ban, bay "word, term;" Old Church Slavonic bajati "to talk, tell;" Old English boian "to boast," ben "prayer, request;" Greek pheme "talk," phone "voice, sound," phanai "to speak;" Old Irish bann "law"."power (n.) Look up power at Dictionary.com
c.1300, "ability; ability to act or do; strength, vigor, might," especially in battle; "efficacy; control, mastery, lordship, dominion; legal power or authority; authorization; military force, an army," from Anglo-French pouair, Old French povoir, noun use of the infinitive, "to be able," earlier podir (9c.), from Vulgar Latin *potere, from Latin potis "powerful" (see potent).
Whatever some hypocritical ministers of government may say about it, power is the greatest of all pleasures. It seems to me that only love can beat it, and love is a happy illness that can't be picked up as easily as a Ministry.
Meaning "one who has power" is late 14c. Meaning "specific ability or capacity" is from early 15c. Meaning "a state or nation with regard to international authority or influence" is from 1726. Used for "a large number of" from 1660s. Meaning "energy available for work is from 1727. Sense of "electrical supply" is from 1896.Phrase the powers that be is from Rom. xiii1. As a statement wishing good luck, more power to (someone) is recorded from 1842. A power play in ice hockey so called by 1940. Power failure is from 1911; power steering from 1921."
"danger (n.) Look up danger at Dictionary.com
mid-13c., "power of a lord or master, jurisdiction," from Anglo-French daunger, Old French dangier "power, power to harm, mastery, authority, control" (12c., Modern French danger), alteration (due to assoc. with damnum) of dongier, from Vulgar Latin *dominarium "power of a lord," from Latin dominus "lord, master" (see domain).
""virtue (n.) Look up virtue at Dictionary.com
c.1200, vertu, "moral life and conduct; a particular moral excellence," from Anglo-French and Old French vertu "force, strength, vigor; moral strength; qualities, abilities" (10c. in Old French), from Latin virtutem (nominative virtus) "moral strength, high character, goodness; manliness; valor, bravery, courage (in war); excellence, worth," from vir "man" (see virile).""reputation (n.) Look up reputation at Dictionary.com
mid-14c., "credit, good reputation," from Latin reputationem (nominative reputatio) "consideration, a thinking over," noun of action from past participle stem of reputare "reflect upon, reckon, count over," from re- "repeatedly" (see re-) + putare "to reckon, consider" (see putative)."English has transformed, and now the English word "name", though its etymology is somewhat appropriate, no longer matches too well the ancient word used in Semitic Languages. Even the word "Glory" which would be more appropriate, has a different sense now in modern usage, and seems to make people think more of light and power rather than fame or renown, but such a sense is more appropriate than the sense provided by the modern English word "name" which today means almost entirely nothing compared to what it used to mean and so does not really provoke the same sense as the Arabic might have for those who were familiar with the Semitic languages.
So even By the Fame or By the Renown or By the Quality would be closer than "name" simply because of how "name" today no longer matches too well to the ancient sense of the words.
So I agree with you, but I want you to consider if possible words in the vast English language that might also provoke a better sense of the original words and meanings for modern readers who are not familiar with ancient Semitic or English etymology.
So many words today have changed senses and implications and bring up different ideas in the minds of people, and these new senses, regardless of their etymology or definition, are what the common people end up imagining or come up in their minds.
So a word like "name" has lost its meaning, and a word like Allah even has lots its meaning and is treated like other "names" of "Gods" which are often treated as proper names rather than including their meanings.
I want the translation to remain relatively true to the words in Arabic and also invoke the proper senses, and you may think that the word "name" invokes the proper sense in common people, but I really don't think it does, and a word like "Glory" is even closer etymologically and in sense invocation in some ways than the modern way of thinking of the word "name".
Thank you for your post! Lets continue to discuss!
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Salamun Alaikum.
I am not in agreement of the translation "By the Power (that is) Allah".
First of all the goal needs to be confirmed ? are we translating or interpreting?
True that any kind of translation involves a certain degree of interpretation, but per my understanding the first goal of a translator should be to reproduce the experience of the original reading with the least possible modification possible.... The job of a diligent translator is to keep open the possibility of as many interpretations the original term supports as possible ? not to impose the one interpretation (s)he personally prefers. The reader should have the maximum flexibility of choosing from the various possible interpretations the original text offers.
Those bolded parts, exactly.
I am a professional interpreter and I have to INTERPRET. My duty is not to translate, or any and all expressions and messages made by the speaker in the original language will be skewed and the ACTUAL MESSAGE will not get across. And to able to do so I need to have some knowledge of the background of the story, especially when I interpret for meetings. (Subject matter conferences are OK, the subject speaks for itself.)
One problem with translation and allowing readers to interpret is that the actual message could be skewed by their own interpretation. Of course, again, it depends on the subject. If it's a fictitious novel, well and good. If its a legal, life-and-death matter or an operation manual, that'd be a no-no.
So, for the Quran, this will be a very difficult matter. We do not exactly know the intended message. And to translate literally, readers could use that and interpret it to their liking and then cause harm as it is happening today. If we interpret it, we could be skewing the message ourselves.
I think what we could do is to translate and leave a foot note of translator's interpretation and explanations, with a lot of 'could's' in the footnote.
There's an Android app called "The Holy Quran". It's the Quran translated. In this app you can tap on a dogear of a verse and a commentary window pops up. This could be a good starting example.
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Let us keep discussing, and I encourage anyone watching to sign up with the website and add their comments here too! Later, maybe we can make a WIKI page and put the best of this on the discussion page, the rest of the Wiki would have the translations we come up with (just an idea/dream).
We need to pay attention to modern word sense invocation, that means what sense the word now most commonly brings up in a persons imagination and mind, not what the modern definitions are or the etymology of the English words necessarily, but most importantly what sense it invokes in order to match up the modern word sense to the ancient word sense and meaning. The modern sense of "name" literally seems to mean to most people "arbitrary sound designation or title" and is practically worthless in invoking any original sense of the Semitic word or root.
It also makes it seem that Allah is the "name" in the modern sense, just like someones "name" in the modern sense might be "Sally" and very few might know or care about the "meaning" at all, so "names" have lost their meanings and the word "name" itself has thus lost its meaning and implications, rendering the "English Bismillah" completely powerless to invoke appropriate sense in common folk readers.
This is my complaint. We need to pay attention to word sense invocation.
So if the etymology of the word "Petty" had some meaning in English and even in modern dictionaries, but in most common people it invokes a different sense than its meanings, it might be misleading or inappropriate to use it as a word to translate something, the sense of the word is its definition, and it is the most important component of the word, not the sound, not the direct accurate etymological translation, but the sense takes priority over everything, because what we should want is to be able to reach the readers and give them a more Semitic understanding since it is from the Semitic language family and was to Semitic audiences originally. What we should want is to invoke the sense it produced in Arabs and other Semitic language family speakers based on their cultural understandings of the word while still remaining close to its etymology as well but picking up words in English that better match the modern sense. When the modern sense of an English word is no longer its original sense or its etymological sense has changed, we should perhaps look for a better representative word. So the word "God" now brings up in many peoples minds an incorrect "image" and "idea" and its sense is being degraded constantly, and "name" has experienced even worse sense degradation and both have grown incredibly far from the original Semitic senses of the terms for example.
Modern common audiences who know nothing about etymology will not be able to derive the right sense or bring it to mind with a translation that just finds common English words that have lost their original meanings and no longer match up with the Semitic senses.
In the Name of Allah means almost nothing entirely in English, nor does it invoke any great sense in a common English reader of what it might have been trying to say to Semitic audiences due to their different sense of the word being translated as "name". Today In the Name of Allah would invoke the idea that it is God's arbitrary sound designation with no meaning, just like the name "Sally" or "Tom" which has no meaning for people anymore and they rarely think of the meanings. Titles meant a whole lot more around the world in the past, and the "names" and "these are just names which you have named" didn't have the same meaning as arbitrary sound designations like "names" today.
So I would be actually in a sense misleading people by putting in a modern English word that has totally lost the original meaning.
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Those bolded parts, exactly.
I am a professional interpreter and I have to INTERPRET. My duty is not to translate, or any and all expressions and messages made by the speaker in the original language will be skewed and the ACTUAL MESSAGE will not get across. And to able to do so I need to have some knowledge of the background of the story, especially when I interpret for meetings. (Subject matter conferences are OK, the subject speaks for itself.)
One problem with translation and allowing readers to interpret is that the actual message could be skewed by their own interpretation. Of course, again, it depends on the subject. If it's a fictitious novel, well and good. If its a legal, life-and-death matter or an operation manual, that'd be a no-no.
So, for the Quran, this will be a very difficult matter. We do not exactly know the intended message. And to translate literally, readers could use that and interpret it to their liking and then cause harm as it is happening today. If we interpret it, we could be skewing the message ourselves.
I think what we could do is to translate and leave a foot note of translator's interpretation and explanations, with a lot of 'could's' in the footnote.
There's an Android app called "The Holy Quran". It's the Quran translated. In this app you can tap on a dogear of a verse and a commentary window pops up. This could be a good starting example.
Basically that is what will likely happen, but I think there are even enough words in English today to bring it to a closer sense of the Semitic words than to put a word which has entirely lost its sense in modern English and actually implies a sense which was not the sense in the past for the most part. In the past "names" weren't what "names" are today generally, but people could understand the languages and meanings, while most "names" today are coming from languages and histories that are unknown to the people, so few people think of the meaning of the word "Sally" or "Tom" when they use it, so that children grow up learning that the term "name" now means "arbitrary sound designations that apply to people" and so when they read the Qur'an they think Allah is an arbitrary sound designation just like "Sally" or "Tom" which they also don't look to the meanings of since no one even cares what the meanings are of those names and it has little place in conversation. In the Qur'an and the Bible, both written in Semitic languages, "words" and "names" had an incredibly strong sense of meaning that was important to the listeners and readers.
So when a common word has a sense which is completely different from the ancient sense, a better word should be found. My going as far as "power" was an extreme example and option just to give possibilities on the parameters of straying strongly towards the "usage" end of the spectrum. Somewhere before "usage" is "sense" and below that is "literal word for word", which can often strongly give a wrong idea to people, for example if there is some phrase in the culture which has some totally different implication it will be lost on the readers in another language if it is directly translated word for word without the best choice of words to provide the sense implied. Like you said, which is what I'm saying too.
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We need to pay attention to modern word sense invocation, that means what sense the word now most commonly brings up in a persons imagination and mind, not what the modern definitions are or the etymology of the English words necessarily, but most importantly what sense it invokes in order to match up the modern word sense to the ancient word sense and meaning. The modern sense of "name" literally seems to mean to most people "arbitrary sound designation or title" and is practically worthless in invoking any original sense of the Semitic word or root.
Salamun Alaikum.
Could you please provide supporting evidence that " ancient word sense and meaning" of ism implied "power"?
Here is the Lane entry of the word "Ism"
, (S, M, Msb, K,) with the conjunctive , but this is made disjunctive by poetic license , (S,) usually with kesr , (Lh, M, TA,) and , (S, M, K,) of the dial. of Benoo-'Amr-Ibn-Temeem and of Kud?'ah, (M, TA,) mentioned by IAar, (TA,) and and (S, M, K) and , (K,) and (M, K) and and , (K,) a sign conveying knowledge of a thing; syn. and a word applied to denote a substance or an accident or attribute, for the purpose of distinction (M, K) as expl. by El-Mun?wee, in the ? Towkeef, ? the is that which denotes a meaning in itself unconnected with any of the three times if denoting what subsists by itself, it is termed ; and if denoting what does not subsist by itself, whether existent, as , or non-existent, as , it is termed (TA) the pl. is and , (S, M, K,) the latter said by Lh to be a pl. of , but it is rather a pl. of , for otherwise there is no way of accounting for it, (M,) and (S, M, K) and (M, K) are pls. of (K, * TA) the word @ is derived from , (S, TA,) or from , (Msb, Er-R?ghib, TA,) because the is a means of raising into notice the thing denoted thereby, and making it known (S, * Er-R?ghib, TA) it is of the measure , the last radical, , being wanting in it, (S, Msb, TA,) and the hemzeh being prefixed by way of compensation for it, accord to a general rule; (Msb, TA for it is originally (S, Msb, Er-R?ghib, TA) or , (S, Msb, TA,) its pl. being , and its dim. being (S, Msb, Er-R?ghib, * TA) some of the Koofees hold that it is from , meaning , the , which is the primal radical, being rejected, and the hemzeh being substituted for it, so that its measure is ; but this is a weak opinion, for, were it so, the dim. would be and the pl. would be . (Msb, TA.) One says, ; and if you will you may say, ; and in like manner, and Lh says that is the phrase of the Arabs; and he mentions as heard from Benoo-'Amr-Ibn-Temeem and Ks cites, as heard from some of Benoo-Kud?'ah, the saying, ? @ @
? , and as heard from others, not of Kud?'ah. (M.) @ @ is an elliptical phrase . (IJ, M in art. see .) -b2- @ signifies also (assumed tropical) Fame, renown, report, or reputation, of a person (TA) and so , in relation to good, (K, TA,) not to evil; mentioned by Az. (TA.) One says, @ , i. e. His fame &c. . (TA.)(from An Arabic-English Lexicon. London. Williams and Norgate. 1863. )
Compared to that here is the dictionary meaning of the English word "Name"
1a a word or phrase that constitutes the distinctive designation of a person or thing b a word or symbol used in logic to designate an entity 2 a descriptive often disparaging epithet <called him names>
3a reputation <gave the town a bad name> b an illustrious record fame <made a name for himself in golf> c a person or thing with a reputation
4 family, clan
5 appearance as opposed to reality <a friend in name only>
6 one referred to by a name <praise his holy name>
? in the name of
1 by authority of <open in the name of the law>
2 for the reason of using the excuse of <called for reforms in the name of progress>(from http//www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/name)
Per my humble observation the modern etymology of the English word "Name" resembles the ancient word sense and meaning of the arabic "ism" fairly nicely.
Best regards,
Arman
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Those bolded parts, exactly.
I am a professional interpreter and I have to INTERPRET. My duty is not to translate, or any and all expressions and messages made by the speaker in the original language will be skewed and the ACTUAL MESSAGE will not get across. And to able to do so I need to have some knowledge of the background of the story, especially when I interpret for meetings. (Subject matter conferences are OK, the subject speaks for itself.)
One problem with translation and allowing readers to interpret is that the actual message could be skewed by their own interpretation. Of course, again, it depends on the subject. If it's a fictitious novel, well and good. If its a legal, life-and-death matter or an operation manual, that'd be a no-no.
So, for the Quran, this will be a very difficult matter. We do not exactly know the intended message. And to translate literally, readers could use that and interpret it to their liking and then cause harm as it is happening today. If we interpret it, we could be skewing the message ourselves.
I think what we could do is to translate and leave a foot note of translator's interpretation and explanations, with a lot of 'could's' in the footnote.
There's an Android app called "The Holy Quran". It's the Quran translated. In this app you can tap on a dogear of a verse and a commentary window pops up. This could be a good starting example.
Salam LiberalBelief
Elaborating a bit on the bolded part...
As you are implying the readers of translation of Qur'an may get a skewed interpretation if we offer them the maximum freedom of interpretation that the original text allows. May be that is right, but what is the solution? Pushing our interpretation down their throat? That is exactly what the ISIS-Boko Haram Gong are doing... pushing their interpretation down the throad of unsuspecting readers.
No, I would say there are too many interpretation-type translations floating around already... and people have started to loose interest in those because they contradict each other and those who do not know arabic have little clue which one is the one to follow. What is missing is an honest literal readable translation - that makes clear to everyone what the original text really said - so that they can clearly see how the same verse can be interpreted both negatively and positively and that those who are trying to imply that their version of translation is the only correct version - are not necessarily telling the "full truth".
Saying so, we cannot produce a 100% perfect literal translation of Qur'an. Not only because of the quality of Qur'an but because of the differences of English and Arabic language. Still I would say a good translation of Qur'an should try to reproduce the experience of reading the original text as authentically as possible and then provide as many footnotes as interpretation as needed.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
The "power" extension, was coming from the religious sense used in Semitic languages and known to the Jews and likely the Early Christians, but "renown" and "fame" and "glory" are closer English words possibly than the modern degraded sense of "name" even though the etymology of the word "name" is appropriate and fitting and matches closely, the modern "sense invocation", meaning the sense it invokes, is a poor representation possibly of the sense used in the ancient Semitic languages.
To clarify, I was not suggesting that "power" is what the translation should be, I was just giving an extreme example of how far the term was used at times in the Semitic understanding based on its implications, especially when regarding God.
The "power" extension comes from things like this (but I agree this might be going too far, I was just trying to give an example that was common or familiar to those in the Semitic religions"
Exodus 2320-
?Behold, I send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared.
"Be on your guard before him and obey his voice; do not be rebellious toward him, for he will not pardon your transgression, since My name is in him.
If you listen carefully to what he says and do all that I say, I will be an enemy to your enemies and will oppose those who oppose you.Genesis 175
No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations.Do you see? It had much stronger implications at time than anything sensed in the modern sense invoked by the term "name" even if the etymology matches closely, modern readers just don't get the proper Semitic implications.
It didn't necessarily mean "I am changing your fame" nor "arbitrary sound designation" the way modern people take it, but it meant "I am changing your title which relates to your power or what you do" and in the case of the Angel, even more directly "My name is in him" doesn't seem to mean "my fame is in him" or even my "glory" in the modern sense or even "my title", none of that really makes sense too much, but it seemed to mean "my power" "my epithet/title which relates to my power/authority".
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basmala
You can see that what was being invoked by the ancients when they "called upon the name" was not some arbitrary sound designation, nor "fame", or "renown", nor even a meaningless "title" but actually what was being referred to was "power" or "the epithet related to power" or "authority" also in the case of "God's titles".
So "By the Title of Allah" might not even give the full sense. I am not suggesting that "power" is the definition we should settle on, I am just giving you an idea of the grand sense the term had in the the Semitic languages.
A persons "name" back then, meant their special power, what they were famous form. This sense is still used in the Qur'an, the "name" of Satan is Iblis, and that comes from the root Balasa, meaning "He Despaired" and can imply "He Lost Hope" or also "He Causes Despair/Loss of Hope" and, both which might apply simultaneously and it is his "name" because that is his special attribute or "power". I meant "power" in the sense of "super power" like you might "name" a "super hero" "Laser Man" because that is their special "power" for example and what they are "renowned" or "known for" or "glorified by".
So names were very important to the Ancient Semitic peoples across the board, and they did not name arbitrarily, and the Bible is full of important names which the people had a general understanding of by knowing the language and the implication. Modern people often leave the "names" untranslated, and thus lose the whole message half of the time, thinking that Demeter is a "name" in the modern sense like "Sally" or "Sophia" is just an arbitrary designation of sounds and letters.
So since the modern sense of the word "name" is so degraded (even if it is etymologically close to the Arabic meaning, it has lost the ability in modern times to invoke the proper sense of "Quality" "Attribute" "Special Power" "What you are Known For" "Your Glorious Deeds" "Your Glorious Character" "Your Title of Authority", I was suggesting that we might look for something which might better capture that original sense for common people who are not familiar with etymology and use "name" to mean "arbitrary sound designation like the meaningless Sally or Tom".
You can also see the usage from the earliest times, also in Christianity, that what was being invoked was a special power or the power of what was being invoked, their special quality and power and blessing ability, and that is why it says to "say the name of Allah over the food" and "not to eat what other names have been invoked on" and all this stuff, which seems practically meaningless or silly today, but that is because of how the word has lost so much of its meaning.
The idea of the "name" in the past, particularly the "name of God" was of extreme importance to the Ancient Semitic peoples, and also everyone else in the world, and "names" were used generally in the same way, to refer to someones special quality or special power or what they were renowned for, and in the case of "God" to invoke that power and use it. The Bismillah is basically a "spell" that is being cast.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spell_(paranormal)
and ancient people took "words" very seriously, and even the concept of "words" like the "word of God" was extremely important and also meant much more than what the modern word "word" means generally in its implications.
So "In the Name of Allah" is practically invoking none of the ancient Semitic implications to modern common people who don't know any of this at all, yet the people of the Semitic language family did generally know these things at the time, including the Jews and the Christians which can be seen from their usage before and based on their scripture as well and also in how other Semitic peoples used it in the past.
The "name" was an "epithet" for a person's main special quality or power of renown.
So that is what I was referring to when I said "power", but I understand that may also not be the only sense and an extreme example, I was just trying to expand the range by showing how important the concept was to the Semitic Language speaking people but today it has lost its meaning vastly, if someone says By the name of "Sally" it doesn't give any of the sense of "By the superpower quality of Sally".
The name was changed to "Abraham" because of the special power he was bestowed, and with his special power of renown (that he was going to be the father of so many who would look up to him) his title was changed to match it. You can see this happened also with "Jacob" being renamed "Israel" because of a "deed of renown" or a "glorious deed of renown" he had performed, which was "Wrestling with God" which is what the name means.
Yet, to say By the Renown of Allah doesn't really make too much sense in how the "pronouncement of the name" was traditionally used, by those before the Qur'an and after it, since it was used specifically as a magical invocation by people, and basically recommended as a magical invocation in the Qur'an as well. "Call upon me by my Names" "Invoke me by my Names" it doesn't give quite the same sense as the Semitic people might have understood it. The Qur'an is almost completely lacking all that sense of magic that was more apparent to the Semitic speaking people who frequently used names to refer to "powers" and you will see the names themselves are "powers", and not "names" in the modern sense "Sally" having no apparent meaning.
So that is what I was talking about, to give readers a better sense of the Semitic implications and usage which is not invoked by some modern senses of words.
So what it appears to be saying, and how it was used, is "By the Power (the famous quality/power that God is known for and by" known as Allah (which also had a meaning like I described, basically Ultimate Power, which is how it was used in the forms of El and whatever else around the world), and then continues with the next parts, those other powers being invoked, but also informing us of the powers/qualities of renown. El was also known by these attributes and is the same Ultimate being referred to.
I am again not suggesting we use that translation, I am just trying to say that it had a much more powerful and deeper sense than the word "name" provides, and the word "name" for modern speakers no longer invokes its etymological meaning, nor the Semitic usage, particularly when it comes to "names" as used by Semitic Language speaks to mean "ones special power or quality that one is known for" and also "authoritative power or title of power", like "In the name of the King" means "By the authority/authoritative power of the King" and you can see how its generally related to one's special power, possibly more than even "By the fame of the King do I proclaim" which doesn't make as much sense really to the implied sense.
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Salamun Alaikum
Somehow I seem to be caught into a circular argument which I always try to avoid. So this will be my last and conclusive opinion on this topic
- Power / Glory is possibly a secondary implied meaning of the arabic word "ism", but it is not the primary meaning.
- The modern English word "Name" does carry finer shades of secondary meanings of "Power" / "Glory" just like Arabic ism. Example By the name (power) of Law, I order you to surrender. His name (Glory) spread accross the countries.
Since, the English word "Name" carries both the primary and secondary meanings similar to Arabic "ism", "Name" is the near-perfect translation for this word which would be difficult to match by any other word.
- I believe generally readers of Qur'an translation should have the intelligence to understand that "By the power of Allah" can be an interpretation of "By the name of Allah", I do not feel the need to spoon feed readers like this.
If the purpose of this thread is to get the best interpretation of Qur'an and put it in English words - I'll respectfully step aside because I do not support the idea that Qur'an has one best interpretation. I'll keep an eye on this thread though in case there is something new or interesting that comes out of the process.
Best wishes in your endeavor.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Peace FreedomStands@
How do you translate the term 'qurn' ()?
Thank you so much for asking me a question, so few people seem to take advantage of the opportunity to ask me things!
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran#Etymology_and_meaning
"Quran (n.) Look up Quran at Dictionary.com
1876, variant spelling (preferred by scholars) of Koran (q.v.), from Arabic qur'an, literally "book, reading, recitation," from qara'a "to read." Related Quranic.""Koran Look up Koran at Dictionary.com
1610s, from Arabic qur'an "a reading, recitation, book," from root of quara-a "he read, recited." Related Koranic."Also you can see
" = Qaf-Ra-Alif = to recite/read, compilation, collection, reading, recitation, explanation, study, investigation.
qara'a vb. (I) perf. act. 1698, 1745, 26199, 7518
yaqra'u - impf. act. 1094, 1771, 1793, 17106
iqra - impv. 1714, 6919, 7320, 7320, 961, 963
quri'a - perf. pass. 7204, 8421
qur'an - n.m. 2185, 482, 5101, 619, 7204, 9111, 1015, 1037, 1061, 122, 123, 1231, 151, 1587, 1591, 1698, 179, 1741, 1745, 1746, 1760, 1778, 1778, 1782, 1788, 1789, 17106, 1854, 202, 20113, 20114, 2530, 2532, 271, 276, 2776, 2792, 2885, 3058, 3431, 362, 3669, 381, 3927, 3928, 413, 4126, 4144, 427, 433, 4331, 4629, 4724, 501, 5045, 5417, 5422, 5432, 5440, 552, 5677, 5921, 721, 734, 7320, 7517, 7518, 7623, 8421, 8521
quru n.m. - 2228
aqra'a vb. (IV) - 876 (to cause to read/recite)
LL, V7, p 30, 31, 32 ## http//ejtaal.net/aa/#q=qra"
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
I believe that "read" gives the wrong implication while "recite" gives the right implication, since it began as an oral text and the Jews and Christians both knew their scriptures through liturgical recitals at that time.
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Salamun Alaikum
Somehow I seem to be caught into a circular argument which I always try to avoid. So this will be my last and conclusive opinion on this topic
- Power / Glory is possibly a secondary implied meaning of the arabic word "ism", but it is not the primary meaning.
- The modern English word "Name" does carry finer shades of secondary meanings of "Power" / "Glory" just like Arabic ism. Example By the name (power) of Law, I order you to surrender. His name (Glory) spread accross the countries.
Since, the English word "Name" carries both the primary and secondary meanings similar to Arabic "ism", "Name" is the near-perfect translation for this word which would be difficult to match by any other word.
- I believe generally readers of Qur'an translation should have the intelligence to understand that "By the power of Allah" can be an interpretation of "By the name of Allah", I do not feel the need to spoon feed readers like this.
If the purpose of this thread is to get the best interpretation of Qur'an and put it in English words - I'll respectfully step aside because I do not support the idea that Qur'an has one best interpretation. I'll keep an eye on this thread though in case there is something new or interesting that comes out of the process.
Best wishes in your endeavor.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
ArmanArman, please don't give up on this thread or me, your contributions are huge and useful. If you don't like what I am saying (and what I am saying is that modern readers do not get a proper sense from the word "name" because they don't know the etymology of the word or its finer shades, but only know how they use it commonly, which means to them "an arbitrary designation of sound for some object", so perhaps another word could be used, but if you like the word, so did all the other translators so that is totally fine, I am not arguing with you), simply move on to the next word or the next verse. Verse by verse we will go through the Qur'an together, and others should contribute too, and we will make an extensive commentary on it.
The next word is Rahman, which I prefer "Compassionate" even though again, the modern sense of the word "compassion" often means to people "kindness, relenting towards" when the original etymology matches more closely the meaning of Rahman, which was to suffer along with, to know the suffering of, which is the literal meaning of compassion and empathy. When people are invoking the Compassionate, it may be that they are basically saying "see my plight" "Oh knower of my suffering" and things like that. I really enjoy this thread because I get to make extensive commentary on the words and I'd like you to continue contributing.
If you don't have more contributions for a particular word or verse, move on to the next verse, and when you translate it, offer the sources if you can of why you chose the particular words you did, just the way that I am making so much of a commentary if you can, because your commentary is very good. Please do not leave this thread or stop contributing and please don't imagine that I am disrespecting you or arguing with you, I don't want you to stop participating, I liked your commentary and I want it to continue please, and the same goes for everyone else if possible!
As we move through the Qur'an, I will have the opportunity to make extensive commentary and so will everyone else and we all may learn lots, so please don't think this is a "circular argument", just move on to the next words and your preferences and why.