Lets Make a Qur'an! (Translation) Lets make a Translation!
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Salam Hawk99.
In addition to what FreedomStands said, I personally prefer "Mighty" as translation of Aziz since the word Aziz has been used in Qur'an as a human name and also as an attribute related to the messenger. There is nothing wrong in using the word "mighty" to name or describe a human. Ar-Rahman, on the other hand, has been used exclusively for Allah which is also somewhat the nature of the term "Almighty".
Once again, if there is a better English word to suggest "One who is the source of and in total control of every aspect of our existence and sustenance" then I'd accept the word. "Almighty" is a weak proxy for this concept as it overemphasizes the power aspect. But after careful consideration, to me this seems to be the best workable proxy.
Perhaps living Ar-Rahman in transliteration may not be a bad idea, but then it makes the translation a bit difficult to read for those who are not familiar with the word.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
ArmanI think Allah and Rahman can be left untranslated for now, and we can move on to the next sentences when you are ready, any of you can initiate the move to the next sentences and begin commentary on those. I am also considering posting on Free-Minds.org the entire Qur'an on one page in one post (not sure if it is possible) in all the translations from www.islamawakened.com/quran so that people can do CTRL+F word find from a single page to find all instances or sentences they might be looking for in batches.
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Peace be Unto those within this thread and around this thread!
My username is FreedomStands!
www.islamawakened.com/quran has lots of translations of the Qur'an, but when I use quotes from there, many people object to the translations and bother me about it, so I would like us to join together in this thread and discuss verse by verse the translation of the Qur'an and perhaps we can even make a translation in the process that most of you all approve of. I don't mind if the translation is close to being a literal word for word translation, or one that gives some implications at least in commentary, or that we produce a commentary along with it. The Qur'an doesn't have that many verses afterall, and it is possible that we at least start translating it together.
Lets begin shall we? Just one verse, we'll do it in the traditional order just for the sake of ease, then each of you can comment on this verse and how you would like to translate it and what you think it means and whatever else.
I wouldn't not want any interference though from outside ideas like the Hadith or trying to find codes or whatever else, just a straightforward word for word translation of the meaning of the verse, and then gently we can go through the whole Qur'an together.
I hope this thread picks up activity, and you all invite your friends and family to participate, investigating the grammar with sources you prefer, and able to explain and justify your choices.
We begin with something of contention possibly with the very first words
Almost all translations at http//www.islamawakened.com/quran/1/1/default.htm agree "In the Name of Allah"
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp Find the word here
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm Find the root here
and
http//www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/index_en.php
Lane's Lexicon http//www.tyndalearchive.com/tabs/lane/
Assyrian Dictionary http//www.aina.org/cad.html
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/LLhome.htm
http//www.lexilogos.com/english/arabic_dictionary.htm
http//www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/collection?collection=Perseuscorpusperseus,work,Lane,%20An%20Arabic-English%20Lexicon
So lets begin! You go first! Offer up your translations and please provide the sources and explanations for your conclusions!
I'm copy pasting the transliteration from the website, so if that is off a little, please don't mind, I'm concerned mainly with translating the words into English and to see you all develop a translation for every verse of the Qur'an!
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Arabic
Transliteration Bismi Allahi alrrahmani alrraheemiLong time back I had opened a thread for this purpose.
Academic evaluation of translations
Assalamo alaikum,
The membership of the forum has become quite respectable. Active members are also quite many.
We can undertake an academic study to evalute the existing translations and benefit from the collective effort of members to arrive at a better translation. The approach should be sequential beginning with First Ayah.
We can select 7 which are available on one page of Leeds and two earlier ones of Rodewell and George Sales since both have great influence on later translations.
We have on line parsar both for English and Arabic of Qur'aan. It will facilitate as it will serve as good toolkit.
John Medows Rodwell In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful
George Sale In the name of the most merciful God.
Sahih International In the name of Allah , the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful.Pickthall In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
Yusuf Ali In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Shakir In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
Muhammad Sarwar In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
Mohsin Khan In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
Arberry In the Name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate
Would the English speaking members enlighten us
- Whether this English "sentence" is a complete sentence or is lacking in linkages.
- If it is not a complete sentence, what will be the meanings or connotation of "In the name of God"
(a) In behalf of;
(b) By the authority of;
(c) With appeal to; or
(d) Just a swearing
(e) innovocation a calling upon Allah
Though some translators who are alive do visit the forum, they did not come forward.
The intent of communication is not retrievable by merely knowing the meanings of individual words. It is the structure of the discourse that communicates the intended message of the author.
Therefore, the first step is discourse segmentation.A prepositional phrase modifies some element of the sentence. A preposition in Arabic, like English prepositions, can have different meanings in relation to other elements of the sentence.
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Long time back I had opened a thread for this purpose.
Though some translators who are alive do visit the forum, they did not come forward.
The intent of communication is not retrievable by merely knowing the meanings of individual words. It is the structure of the discourse that communicates the intended message of the author.
Therefore, the first step is discourse segmentation.A prepositional phrase modifies some element of the sentence. A preposition in Arabic, like English prepositions, can have different meanings in relation to other elements of the sentence.
Great post! So what do you think of the current translations available these days such as those found at www.islamawakened.com/quran ? I mainly opened this thread to get some interesting discussion on each verse more so than actually expecting a translations to come out of it necessarily, I wanted to see what people's opinions were on each version and if anyone had any interesting linguistic information on any of the verses (or things which might prompt me to include some interesting commentary).
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Great post! So what do you think of the current translations available these days such as those found at www.islamawakened.com/quran ? I mainly opened this thread to get some interesting discussion on each verse more so than actually expecting a translations to come out of it necessarily, I wanted to see what people's opinions were on each version and if anyone had any interesting linguistic information on any of the verses (or things which might prompt me to include some interesting commentary).
None, yes none, of the translations is academic translation. We must read and translate Qur'aan by following the principles set for a critical reader regards how to read a book.
The text of languages is typically divided into three categories
- Word---We have acquired the skill to identify it.
- Phrase
- Sentence
Phrase
It is a string of words that form a constituent and so function as a single unit in the syntax of a sentence. A phrase is lower on the grammatical hierarchy than a clause. These are compounds, in Arabic . When two or more words are adjoined or joined they constitute what is termed "Phrase" in English and in Arabic it is referred as -a combination of two or more words from which no complete information, order or desire is understood. It is an incomplete statement. However a combination of two words may also constitute a complete Sentence-.
The first Ayah of Grand Qur'aan teaches us the following three types of Phrases
- Prepositional Phrase;
- Possessive Phrase;
- Adjectival Phrase.
Reading about phrases in English language would suffice to perceive the Arabic phrases and their meanings in the sentence.
A prepositional phrase has a certain function in the sentence. It must be kept in mind as presupposition before trying to translate Arabic text otherwise it will be a distorted understanding and translation. -
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/001.%20Al%20Fateha/1.01a.gif
Elided Verb The elevated Messenger of Allah the Exalted pronounced"Ar'Reh'maan the Personal Name of Allah the Exalted is the recourse-resort to activation.
Ar'Reh'maan is eternally the Fountain of Infinite Mercy".
The prerequisite to accurately and comprehensively perceive the perception and thought conveyed in Arabic text is to know and determine the relation of each and every word with its preceding and subsequent word while determining its own position and role played in the sentence/text. One cannot comprehensively perceive the thought-idea conveyed therein merely by knowing the vocabulary of language. Some say about Arabic that we learn Arabic to read Arabic.
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Tabweeb/00002.%20Allah/1.gifhttp//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Tabweeb/00001.%20Ism%20Name/1.gif These two words constitute a grammatical unit comprising a Prepositional Phrase + Possessive Phrase. The learned grammarians lay the principle that a Prepositional Phrase in Arabic is neither the Subject nor the predicate of a sentence. It relates to either. Therefore, a verb is understood and conveniently estimated before this phrase. We need a citation for a statement. A written word or a statement is firstly spoken by someone, thereby it is reiterated in time and space. We know the Person who orally and in writing communicated the Book that we are reading and trying to translate in English, the Grand Qur'aan. Therefore, the elided Verb before the statement of universal import that can most appropriately be estimated is "Muhammad Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam, the elevated Messenger of Allah the Exalted Pronounced that------". The structure of sentence is simple and is declarative type.
Translation after syntactic analysis 101
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Could you produce a Mazhar version of the Qur'an along with a Mazhar commentary justifying each choice? I'd really enjoy reading that!
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Could you produce a Mazhar version of the Qur'an along with a Mazhar commentary justifying each choice? I'd really enjoy reading that!
It is a very long exercise. One by one Ayah is good speed.
Please peruse explanations about words of first Ayah in the link given in earlier post and suggest if it is lacking in some detail to render it more comprehensive and understandable.
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It is a very long exercise. One by one Ayah is good speed.
Please peruse explanations about words of first Ayah in the link given in earlier post and suggest if it is lacking in some detail to render it more comprehensive and understandable.
My purpose was largely for additional commentary, to mention some points about certain words and how they are understood today as compared to the implications built into those words in the Semitic Language cultures.
So even the first like "In the Name of Allah" is already rather lacking in the kind of meaning it might have had for the ancient people, since the term "Name" now in English almost means a completely arbitrary sound designation for someone and implying that Allah is that arbitrary sound designation with no deeper meaning, while in the past "names" were actually "epithets" or descriptive titles usually related to a particular quality of renown.
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Names and epithets are two different entities. Name is primarily for cognition of existence of specific object or person; epithet is for description of a certain object/person. Like there are epithets for the Grand Qur'aan; Az-Zikro; Basairo.
That is true, but I was just meaning to say that in the Semitic Languages, the names were usually descriptive rather than how today names are thought to be arbitrary sound designations. I explained more about this name business earlier. Names generally had meaning to the people of the past and were considered more important than they are today. The names usually had to do with some quality of renown that they were known for, or in the case of names given by parents that their parents wanted them to be known for. So that is why so much focus is placed on names in the Bible for example, and that sometimes the names of figures in the Bible are changed due to some circumstance that would be their quality of renown (these were almost like being named after "super powers" they had), and so even Allah has descriptive qualities built into the word and it is not just an arbitrary sound designation (is what I was trying to say), but yes you're right about names and epithets, I was just trying to mention what I mentioned above as well as earlier.
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Semitic Languages, the names were usually descriptive rather than how today names are thought to be arbitrary sound designations
Names were also given by participles. But once it is a name, it is no more a participle or epithet. Like the name of the elevated last Messenger. It is otherwise a passive participle.
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Names were also given by participles. But once it is a name, it is no more a participle or epithet. Like the name of the elevated last Messenger. It is otherwise a passive participle.
Though that is true generally, I think the names still held some impact on people, at least that is what the Biblical text makes it seem like, since it places a great deal of emphasis on name changes due to the meanings of the new names given, though I am not disagreeing of course with what you are saying, but it can be a fun little extra thing to see what the meanings within a certain name might be, particularly when it comes to Allah where the "names" really are often qualities.
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Though that is true generally, I think the names still held some impact on people, at least that is what the Biblical text makes it seem like, since it places a great deal of emphasis on name changes due to the meanings of the new names given, though I am not disagreeing of course with what you are saying, but it can be a fun little extra thing to see what the meanings within a certain name might be, particularly when it comes to Allah where the "names" really are often qualities.
Personal names Proper nouns are not translated in any language. Adjectival-Hyperbole names are translatable in target text language.
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Personal names Proper nouns are not translated in any language. Adjectival-Hyperbole names are translatable in target text language.
Yeah, there was no particular need for translating them since they knew the meanings associated generally, like the names in the Bible for example provide some more depth to the stories, like Esau meant "Hairy" and this "Hairiness" was a relevant part of the Biblical story. These references were understood by those who spoke the languages and those were the qualities of their renown, that is all I'm talking about in this case.
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Yeah, there was no particular need for translating them since they knew the meanings associated generally, like the names in the Bible for example provide some more depth to the stories, like Esau meant "Hairy" and this "Hairiness" was a relevant part of the Biblical story. These references were understood by those who spoke the languages and those were the qualities of their renown, that is all I'm talking about in this case.
Agreed.
Injeel needed no translation since it was in the native language of those people to whom it was given. Grand Qur'aan is for humanity, therefore, it needs to be translated for dissemination across the linguistic boundaries.Qur'aan has not translated non-arabic names in Arabic and has mentioned them in Arabic alphabet.
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http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Tabweeb/00001.%20Ism%20Name/1.gif
This has two Morphological segments It is a Prepositional Phrase. is an Inseparable preposition which renders its object noun in genitive state. The apparent sign of genitive state is vowel sign on the last consonant of the word.
The Preposition designates contiguity in its broadest sense. It has a wide range of uses including spatiotemporal, instrumental and manner adverbial. It is frequently used for connectivity, be it true or figurative; for accompaniment; and to make a verb transitive. It is used for resorting, recourse. This phrase in isolation, literally means "beginning-activation-concomitance is with a name -code". Initiating any controlled process requires information. And the most fundamental fact about information is that it is itself preceded by the Prime Source Who is but the Living and holding Will.
Grand Qur'aan begins with a prepositional phrase. Experts say that prepositions are difficult to define but are easy to understand. They, in Urdu and English, generally tell the "position" of people, or things in relation to where other people or things are located. They show relationship between objects in space where one thing is in relation to another; and they can show relationship in time when an event occurred in relation to another event. Moreover, in Arabic they can relate facts not affected by time and space, i.e. absolute facts or realities.
The preposition designates contiguity in its broadest sense. It has a wide range of uses including spatiotemporal, instrumental and manner adverbial.
The Prefixed Preposition is used for the following purposes
(1) For connectivity; be it true or figurative;
(2) For assistance; making use of; resorting, recourse;(3) For making a non transitive Verb as transitive;
(4) for requital,
(4) For an adverbial meaning;
(5) For accompaniment;
(6) Extraneous. According to rule it is used for the negated Predicate.Rules for preposition
If the word to which the prepositional phrase is trying to link accepts such links, we can group them together immediately. Types of words that accept these links are
a. verbs
b. gerunds
c. active, passive, hyperbolic, and resembling participles (which are derived nouns)
d. occasionally superlatives as well (which is also a derived noun)
2. If the word does not fall into one of the mentioned categories, then
a. if the word precedes the prepositional phrase, the phrase will link to a hidden word which it is able to link to and that hidden word will then become an adjective
b. if the word follows the prepositional phrase, the phrase will link to a hidden word which it is able to link to and that hidden word will then become (circumstantial adverb) -
Grand Qur'aan concatenates facts in perfect sequence and chronological order. Its first word in isolation literaly means "Beginning is with a name; name is the recourse-resort to activation" vividly indicates at the outset about superb concatenation-consistence-contiguity and colligation in the contents of the Book in hand. This is the First scientific-physical fact of the physical-material world. The creation and for created ones the initiation of the process of learning-knowledge is but the "code/name". The human memory and that of computer can save nothing without knowing or assigning a code/name to a thing-object-phenomenon.
Our knowledge is dependent upon the existence of matter and awareness of its name/code which verbally mirrors it through words comprising letters, consonants and diacritics of a language making us cognizant of it. Cognizant is he who can verbally mirror the image of that thing for others. This being the ground reality, We cannot say with certainty regarding whether thought-idea-image-name-word mirroring the physical object is the first in existence, or the object mirrored by that thought/word was the first in existence. Grand Qur'aan has clarified for us in simple words that the idea, thought, Wish and the Will of a Living Being precedes the emergence of a physical reality. The idea, thought and perception of the thing precedes its taking physical existence.