Lets Make a Qur'an! (Translation) Lets make a Translation!
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- Raab (ّ translated as ?Master? (as in Master-Slave relationship). I do not prefer the other commonly found translation of this term, ?the Lord? - which sounds too "feudal" to my ears )
Regards,
ArmanLord seems similar to what I was just describing about a possible meaning of Rahman and Rahim related to Benefaction since Lord means the one who keeps the bread as compared to the ones who eat it.
One should keep in mind that feudal or royal language would actually be common or better understood by the people at the time, and my intention would be (and my intention also in this thread is) to show how the Semitic Language speaking audience at the time (in all their ignorance too of course) might have understood these things, which might give some clues as to how they may have effected the audience upon hearing them.
I also prefer the term Master for Rabb and I refer to Allah as Master, though I like how the term Lord of the Worlds sounds, etymologically I don't care for the word Lord (even though it implies different things to modern listeners now), and Master is literally how it was used and even the word Rabbi has that same root in it.
As for Alameen, I take that to mean "Everything" and I don't think the word "Universe" quite evokes the same depth as "Everything", and instead in the Semitic languages the "Heavens" included what we usually think (or what common people tend to think of even today) as the "Universe" (to them it often means outer space, including the stars and the planets) which were referred to as "Heavens" by the ancient people, and Alameen seemed to mean "Everything" "All things", so that is why some chose to translate it as "Worlds" which is nice because it can evoke the feeling of "Realities" which is what Allah controls, All information, which are All things, and All realities, yet I would not translate it with such modern concepts as "realities" or "experiences" or any of that, but it seems "All inclusive" or "Everything" (which indeed is one definition possibly for "Universe" though it does not evoke that sense in most common people I think, who think of the immediate Heavens or stars and planets when the word "Universe" is mentioned) might be better fitting to evoke how the contemporary audience may have processed the word.
Though it differs from the word "anam" which "Everything" might evoke in some people, as their mind might be brought to focus on "things" in particular "living things"
"Alif-Nun-Miim = (this root is compared to kha-lam-qaf) meaning mankind and the jinn and others or what are on the face of the earth of all that are termed al-khalaq or created or everything having a soul or spirit, creatures.
anam n. coll. 5510
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 1, page 155 ## http//ejtaal.net/aa/#q=anm"
Though I think it is inclusive enough of everything else as well, and perhaps "All" would more specifically bring the mind to particular objects.
The root actually relates to "knowledge" largely
= Ayn-Lam-Miim = to mark/sign/distinguish, creations/beings, world, science/learning/knowledge/information, aware/know. By means of which one knows a thing, hence it signifies world or creation, because by it the Creator is known. alim (pl. ulama) - one who is learned/wise or knows.
'Alima (prf. 3rd. m. sing.) He knew.
'Alimta (prf. 1st. sing.). Thou knewest.
'Alimuu (prf. 3rd. m. plu.) They knew.
'Alimatum (prf. 2nd. m. plu.) Ye knew.
'Alimtumuu (prf. 2nd. m. plu.) Ye knew.
'Alimnaa (prf. 1st. plu.) We knew.
'Ya'lamu (imp. 3rd. m. sing.) He knows.
'Ya'lamanna (imp. 3rd. m. sing. imp.) He will surely know.
'Ta'lamuu (imp. 2nd. m. sing.) Thou knowest.
Ta'lam (imp. 2nd. m. sing. juss.) Thou knowest.
'Lam Ya'lam (imp. 2nd. m. sing. juss.) He knows not.
Ta'lamunna (imp. 2nd. m. sing. imp.) You shall with certainty come to know.
Na'lamu (imp. 1st. plu.) We distinguish; know.
Ya'lamuuna (imp. 3rd. m. plu.) They know.
Ya'lamuu (imp. 3rd. m. plu. juss. final Nun dropped).
Ta'lamuu (imp. 2nd. m. plu. juss. final Nun dropped) You know.
I'lam (prt. m. sing.) Thou know.
I'lamuu (prt. m. plu.) You know.
Yu'lama (pip. 3rd. m. sing.) These be known.
'Allama (prf. 3rd. m. sing. vb. II) He taught.
'Allamtum (prf. 2nd. m. plu. vb. II) You taught.
'Allamta (prf. 2nd. m. sing. vb. II) Thou taught.
'Allamtu (prf. 1st. sing. vb. II) I taught.
'Allamnaa (prf. 1st. plu. vb. II) We taught.
Yu'allimu (imp. 3rd. m. sing. vb. II) He teaches.
Yu'allimaani (imp. 3rd. m. dual vb. II) They two teach.
Yu'allimuuna (imp. 3rd. m. plu. vb. II) They teach.
Tu'allimuuna (imp. 2nd. m. plu.) You teach.
Tu'allimani (comb. of Tu'allim+ni) You teach me.
Nu'allimu (imp. 1st. plu.) We teach.
'Ullimta (imp. 1st. plu.) Thou art taught.
'Ullimtum (pp. 2nd. m. plu.) You are taught.
'Ullimna (pp. 1st. plu.) We are taught.
Yata'allamuuna (imp. 3rd. m. plu.) They learn.
'Ilman (n.) Knowledge; Information; Learning.
Aalimun (act. pic. m. sing.) Who knows; Learned.
'Ulamaa (plu.) Learned ones.
'Aalimuuna / 'Aalimiina (acc./act. pic. m. plu.) Learned ones.
'Aliim (act. 2nd. pic.) Who knows.
Al-'Aaliim The one who knows and knowledge is a permanent feature of his personality. One of the names of Allah.
'Allaam (ints.) Well known.
Ma'luum (pic. pac. sing.) Known.
Ma`lumat (pic. pac. plu.) Known ones
Mu'allamin (pis. pic. vb. II) Taught one.
'Alamiin (n. plu.) Worlds/Beings.
You might enjoy this link!
http//quransmessage.com/articles/alameen%20FM3.htm
The distinguishing of everything and having knowledge of everything and teaching everything are a coloring for the word almost entirely lost with words like "Universe" for example, and even "Everything" may be particularly insufficient to help inspire in modern readers the Semitic sense of the word.
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Sustainer is the best translation for if you ask me. That based on my analysis using the letter by letter method and innate letter meaning. It refers to Allah as The Good Foundation (Al-Rahman).
And Allah also does sustain all that you see.
Salaam
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Salam
"Everything" corresponds to "Kullu Shaiyeen" to me.
For "a'lamin" the acceptable choices me be
- universe
- worlds
- entire known universe (perhaps most appropriate but longish)
- every thing that we know of. (too long)
That our "world" is a part of the universe is a common knowledge to even school kids. So, I could not fully agree to the assertion that "the universe" invokes an idea of stars and planets etc.
Full Definition of UNIVERSE
1 the whole body of things and phenomena observed or postulated cosmos as a a systematic whole held to arise by and persist through the direct intervention of divine power b the world of human experience c (1) the entire celestial cosmos (2) milky way galaxy (3) an aggregate of stars comparable to the Milky Way galaxy
2 a distinct field or province of thought or reality that forms a closed system or self-inclusive and independent organization
3 population 4
4 a set that contains all elements relevant to a particular discussion or problem
5 a great number or quantity <a large enough universe of stocks ? to choose from ? G. B. Clairmont>("Universe." Merriam-Webster.com. Merriam-Webster, n.d. Web. 15 Jan. 2015. <http//www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/universe>.)
Regards,
Arman -
Salam
"Everything" corresponds to "Kullu Shaiyeen" to me.
For "a'lamin" the acceptable choices me be
- universe
- worlds
- entire known universe (perhaps most appropriate but longish)
- every thing that we know of. (too long)
That our "world" is a part of the universe is a common knowledge to even school kids. So, I could not fully agree to the assertion that "the universe" invokes an idea of stars and planets etc.
Regards,
ArmanI just meant most people likely think of outer space pictures when "Universe" is mentioned. While the word itself has some connection possibly to "making distinctions" "all distinctions" which is connected to the root and why it involves "knowledge, teaching" which had the meaning of "making distinctions" so like "All the distinctions" might have been a coloring the term had, and this also connects to how "Allah knows" in English seems to mean so much less than than what have been implied in the past, that "Allah it is who makes the distinctions" which would be consistent with the message of the whole Qur'an regarding the connection between "creation" and "knowledge" both being "making distinctions" and "making things distinct" "allotting, determining, dividing" and all that.
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Sustainer is the best translation for if you ask me. That based on my analysis using the letter by letter method and innate letter meaning. It refers to Allah as The Good Foundation (Al-Rahman).
And Allah also does sustain all that you see.
Salaam
Thank you for commenting here and I hope you continue to do so! Yeah, I often like Sustainer too which is used by Muhammad Asad in his translation. None of the translators used "Master" even though Rabbi is a word with the same root and is often translated as "Master" or is said to mean "My Master".
If its possible at all, when you mention your method of coming up with words, if you could mention what each letter means to you and the words you used that use the letter which have the meaning you derived. If that is too much trouble that is alright, but this page could be used to record and save some information about how you come up with the words and the words you use to derive the meaning for each letter and then the combination and all that.
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Salamun Alaikum.
the Yielder (suggested by hawk99), and the Foundation (suggested by MoF) are both acceptable translation for Ar-Rahman (ِ to me and supports or builds upon the meaning I understand from the word, i.e. ?One who holds complete authority and control over and is the ultimate source of every aspect of our existence and sustenance.? Furthermore these translations have stronger connection to the root Ra-Ha-Mim (womb). I appreciate the suggestions.
My only issue is these words do not evoke the sense of "God" immediately and hence may not be the best suited to translate the word which the author of Qur'an appears to have chosen as an exclusive personal name of Allah. "Almighty" may be a better fit from that perspective.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Salamun Alaikum.
the Yielder (suggested by hawk99), and the Foundation (suggested by MoF) are both acceptable translation for Ar-Rahman (ِ to me and supports or builds upon the meaning I understand from the word, i.e. ?One who holds complete authority and control over and is the ultimate source of every aspect of our existence and sustenance.? Furthermore these translations have stronger connection to the root Ra-Ha-Mim (womb). I appreciate the suggestions.
My only issue is these words do not evoke the sense of "God" immediately and hence may not be the best suited to translate the word which the author of Qur'an appears to have chosen as an exclusive personal name of Allah. "Almighty" may be a better fit from that perspective.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
ArmanAlmighty evokes the idea of terrible power I think, which I agree is the purpose with which it might be chosen.
Yielder is a little disturbing to me though in some senses for some of the implications that might be associated with yielding as in "being forced to yield" as we are the Yielders truly who Yield to the will of Allah.
Foundation and Sustainer are alright as well, and can associate with the modern English associations with the word womb, and Foundation might now have a very vague association with Progenitor and Originator and so tied with the kinship idea, but not with the coloring of the original root (though I know that what you are presenting is that the original root may be largely irrelevant in this case and a new term is being created and its definition should be looked to by surrounding verses rather than the root or the root coloring, while all I have been saying is that the viewers may have looked to the root coloring which was understood to be all terms related to mutual suffering, even if this was not the authors intent).
So I am not disagreeing with any of you, I am glad for all the suggestions and work you're putting into this, and I look forward to more as we continue to move on.
As I showed earlier, the Rahman version has a different form which implies (if one is to understand its implications based on the normal grammar rules) of "fullness" while the second has the implication of "dispensing, repeated giving".
Rahman did probably have the implications of "Almighty" in the sense of "Holding Fullness of Power" and the "Power" in this case referring to "Benediction, Rulings, Decrees, Giving out favors/gifts or punishments", and thus "Lord" in some senses as the "one who holds the loafs".
Basically, the idea might largely be like "the one who holds the authority over the clouds that can give out rain and crops or leave the land to dry" as the "holder" or "with fullness of authority/holder of power to give" and various ideas that might be associated with Kings. The second one Rahim due to the implication of "dispensing" would mean the one who gives it out.
So it may be saying, the One who holds the power/treasures, the one who gives them out.
By "holds" I mean "full store, has the power over the store"
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bravo
Thank you! That is generally what it seems to mean and what the translators even seemed to intend by saying "Merciful" since one of the meanings even from understanding the root and the word Rahman as a words, gives that same picture of a Power Holding/Treasure Holding King that then relents through compassion and gives out favors and boons and benedictions, which seemed to be the Arab understanding which is what led to these initial translations and seems to even invoke that kind of understanding, but without clarity in the words themselves which might be misunderstood as implying "omni-benevolence" when they are not really.
The kind of Kingly language with the same ideas is used in the Bible as well and also many other religions like the Hindu and Chinese religions.
The idea of El and Shangdi was always that of Ultimate King who held the stores of treasures and was the dispenser of the favor and the disfavor.
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I'd like to add, that you may notice repeated "weather language" in the Qur'an and references to "thunder" and things like that, and the term "Rahman" may have invoked in the minds of the people "Holder of the Stores of Power" which was largely related to the weather, the heavens, the clouds, rain and thunder, as the "mercy of Allah" was usually associated by common people with references to rain water which was extremely crucial in the world, and their minds may have been brought often to the "clouds" as "that which stores" this incredibly important and essential thing called water, and there are many examples in the Qur'an where this language is used and it was probably used because that is what people generally thought of historically when thinking of "God" as the "Holder of the Stores" and then dispenser of it, the dispensing being the idea of rain falling on the Earth often.
One can see clear examples of "Kingship" and "Holder of the Stores/Clouds" throughout the world, with Indra/Rudra, Baal Hadad, Zeus, Odin, and many others.
So I often think that "Rahman" would have implied to people things like "The Thunderer" the "Master of the Stores of the Heavens" and things like that, and right afterwards the mention of the dispensation of that same "Mercy", which was often directly related with rain most often and most particularly. The Qur'an uses this language too, but expands the range of what is covered by this, so that people don't just imagine that it is only the "stores of the heavens" that God holds and dispenses from.
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Also just a quick note to add to that for anyone interested. Shiva was generally associated to Rudra/Indra at times and the word Shiva means "Auspicious" and may also have at times referred to "Auspicious" weather elements, particularly the life giving rains, as well as benedictions, like "the boons of Shiva". Though the Holder of the Stores of Power to Give Benediction was a general understanding of God around the world in various forms, it was often strongly associate with the weather and things like rain water which was incredibly important around the world. Mentioning being "struck by Rahman" and various references to striking people with lightning (which was a common idea in the past around the world) also seems to make Rahman to have likely brought to mind the Lord of Weather, Holder of the stores of Power, like thunder and rain, whereas Raheem would have meant the one that then dispenses it to whomever Allah wills.
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How can any of us truly know the correct interpretation of Quranic Arabic words when we were not present with prophet Muhammed at the time he was delivering the Quranic verses? All interpretations are just educated guesses or based on hearsay hadiths and opinions of imams who had/have their own vested power interests.
Becoming Muslim one is immediately faced with the problem of which Quran (interpretation/translation ) to read. Even if we read across 3 or more different translations, and different interpretations ultimately we can't be sure any are correct. Why would God present us with such a situation where the Quranic words have been preserved but the understanding and knowledge of the meaning of these words have not been preserved? Tradition based Muslims would assert that the authentic Hadith are the answer to this question, but for those Muslims who reject Hadith books as valid guidance, how do we reach a valid understanding of Islam as detailed in Quran? We can study and reflect on the Quranic verses, pray for guidance and implement our own individual understanding as it applies to our own unique life but is there a ritual communal element we need to know and practice too? Are ritual prayers a requirement of Islam or not? What are the differences between interpreting and practicing Islam in a communal 7th century society and interpreting/practicing Islam in a 21st century society based on individualism? -
Becoming Muslim one is immediately faced with the problem of which Quran (interpretation/translation ) to read.
Salamun Alaikum.
Quite the opposite. Becoming Muslim one is immediately faced with a situation where no problem remains as a problem - if really your intention is to become the kind of muslim Abraham was striving to become. A "muslim" is one who out of gratitude towards the gift of life surrenders to the One who gave this invaluable unsolicited gift by upholding the sense of right and wrong that He has given us to make us uniquely human. Being a "muslim" does not mean learning about a deity from a scripture and messenger and then blindly worshipping that deity the way the clergy of that deity prescribe.
Once you realize that you already have all the necessary material to be a muslim within your own soul - then it no longer remains a problem to see that messengers and scriptures (including Qur'an) are only there as helping guide and reminder. So, go ahead and take the best interpretation of the scripture that conforms to your own conscience and intellect.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
How can any of us truly know the correct interpretation of Quranic Arabic words when we were not present with prophet Muhammed at the time he was delivering the Quranic verses? All interpretations are just educated guesses or based on hearsay hadiths and opinions of imams who had/have their own vested power interests.
Becoming Muslim one is immediately faced with the problem of which Quran (interpretation/translation ) to read. Even if we read across 3 or more different translations, and different interpretations ultimately we can't be sure any are correct. Why would God present us with such a situation where the Quranic words have been preserved but the understanding and knowledge of the meaning of these words have not been preserved? Tradition based Muslims would assert that the authentic Hadith are the answer to this question, but for those Muslims who reject Hadith books as valid guidance, how do we reach a valid understanding of Islam as detailed in Quran? We can study and reflect on the Quranic verses, pray for guidance and implement our own individual understanding as it applies to our own unique life but is there a ritual communal element we need to know and practice too? Are ritual prayers a requirement of Islam or not? What are the differences between interpreting and practicing Islam in a communal 7th century society and interpreting/practicing Islam in a 21st century society based on individualism?One of the positive aspects of not knowing, is looking at all the simultaneous possibilities at length and not having to particularly choose any of them, but accepting them all if they make sense, this gives us, the ignorant ones, a more copious Qur'an than perhaps the ancients who really knew what was intended or could have it explained possibly (though it is unknown if they knew either).
One interpretation of the Qur'an might not be as glorious as the Qur'an we have today, a great book of magic and mystery where we should look at all the various definitions and concepts presented and accept them all as possibilities. That was also my purpose for making this thread, to get the people's various ideas on things (but I especially appreciate if they have some basis for what they say), and contribute to knowledge regarding a Qur'an that is now transformed, due to mystery and ignorance, into something that could mean much more than it might have to people who knew exactly what it meant (if there ever were any, and based on what the Qur'an seems to say, even the people at the time were often left questioning, and pondering, and it is likely purposeful that it was made that way, because the Qur'an asks people to think! Think about all the possibilities, think deeply and think logically, and realize all the different roads and all the different ways and all the different things it means). Likewise, Allah does not appear to have made a Reality in which we exist where things simply have one meaning, but if Allah has enabled our minds to be opened, we can see a great deal of depth and meaning and lessons and considerations in everything.
When Allah gives examples in the Qur'an, are they merely meaning exactly what they say? "Allah sends the rain to the dead land, from it grows out all kinds of life" does it just mean that literally? I think it is pretty obvious that Allah teaches the multitudes constantly in a variety of ways, with things that have many meanings for many people, and then leads some astray and leads some to great wisdom by the very same words that are clear but deep, vague but striking, etc.
Look how much our discussion regarding Rahman has brought to us? That is why I was trying to say that it is really foolish to interpret this as a debate or an argument, the idea of making a Qur'an translation was really to instigate conversation and information of all the various things Allah may be saying through these words, and so we should peacefully and happily share information regarding possible interpretations and translations, and if we argue, it should only be to clarify issues or points.
So now when we look at Rahman, instead of just one meaning, we have so many deep meanings for it, and so much can strike us all at once, IT WOULD BE OUR OWN LOSS OUR OWN DETRIMENT if we were to just accept it meaning only what first comes to our head as "Almighty" or "Foundation" or whatever, but ALL OF THAT, All of what we have been saying, all of us, and if it applies appropriately, and if we sufficiently back up our points as I have been demonstrating too, then all of those definitions can be acceptable and give the word tremendous depth whenever you encounter it!
Lets keep going and continue! We don't need to settle on a translation for each verse before moving on, the point is the discussion and what material we produce to show each other, and really all of it can be accepted if there is sufficient reason to include it, not saying "no it doesn't mean suffering with, it doesn't mean compassion, it doesn't mean master" or whatever else, one is only cutting off meanings for themselves then, it is just a word and the words of Allah can have very many deep meanings and every word can be like a beautiful garden of delights!
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Salam FreedomStands.
I support your position that Qur'an should not be taken to have a single one dimensional meaning. It should be taken as signs to lead us.. and the signs may work differently for different people.
One implication of that is .. we cannot really have an universally acceptable translation OR interpretation. For those who really want to take the maximum benefit from Qur'an the inveriably best choice is to study Qur'an in original Arabic.
And those who want to do it, Allah makes it easy for them. (I am saying this from personal experience.)
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Salam FreedomStands.
I support your position that Qur'an should not be taken to have a single one dimensional meaning. It should be taken as signs to lead us.. and the signs may work differently for different people.
One implication of that is .. we cannot really have an universally acceptable translation OR interpretation. For those who really want to take the maximum benefit from Qur'an the inveriably best choice is to study Qur'an in original Arabic.
And those who want to do it, Allah makes it easy for them. (I am saying this from personal experience.)
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
ArmanI agree, but we should still take advantage of this thread to keep the discussion going and move onto the next words of discussion and through the whole Qur'an if possible. Even if we don't get very far, the discussion so far has had a wealth of interesting insight and commentary, and that is my main purpose for making this thread, and perhaps it will give some clues for more inclusive translations that people might prefer, but that really isn't particularly important to me (I actually find the current translations sufficient enough for people largely, and agree that Arabic investigation and looking even into ancient Akkadian roots and Semitic Language history can help lots with deeper coloring for the words, I think many people have gotten lots out of even the translations available today), but what I'd like most is to continue the discussion! I am enjoying all your contributions (everyone who has contributed too), and all of mine as well! I am learning as I write, and hopefully others can feel the depth of the Qur'an by learning more through what we are all contributing here.
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My only issue is these words do not evoke the sense of "God" immediately and hence may not be the best suited to translate the word which the author of Qur'an appears to have chosen as an exclusive personal name of Allah. "Almighty" may be a better fit from that perspective.
Peace Armanaziz thank you for the reply, IMHO we can give attributes of Allah but not encompass
the creator's true majesty in one or two words. Doesn't Aziz = almighty?God bless you
peace
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Peace Armanaziz thank you for the reply, IMHO we can give attributes of Allah but not encompass
the creator's true majesty in one or two words. Doesn't Aziz = almighty?God bless you
peace
Yeah, it is often coupled with wise, kind of like saying "The Omnipotent, The Omniscient" Al-Aziz, Al-Hakim (usually translated as The Mighty, The Wise, which is how Allah describes Himself to Musa I think).
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Peace Armanaziz thank you for the reply, IMHO we can give attributes of Allah but not encompass
the creator's true majesty in one or two words. Doesn't Aziz = almighty?Salam Hawk99.
In addition to what FreedomStands said, I personally prefer "Mighty" as translation of Aziz since the word Aziz has been used in Qur'an as a human name and also as an attribute related to the messenger. There is nothing wrong in using the word "mighty" to name or describe a human. Ar-Rahman, on the other hand, has been used exclusively for Allah which is also somewhat the nature of the term "Almighty".
Once again, if there is a better English word to suggest "One who is the source of and in total control of every aspect of our existence and sustenance" then I'd accept the word. "Almighty" is a weak proxy for this concept as it overemphasizes the power aspect. But after careful consideration, to me this seems to be the best workable proxy.
Perhaps living Ar-Rahman in transliteration may not be a bad idea, but then it makes the translation a bit difficult to read for those who are not familiar with the word.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman