Is there a single Muslim on this whole website?

My_Name_is_Ted

365 O! Fraternity of the book - why do you debate concerning Abraham while the Torah and the Gospel were not sent down but from after him? So, why do you not understand?

366 Here you are ? the ones who (even) debated about which you had knowledge; then why do you debate about which you have no knowledge? And Allah knows, while you do not know.

367 Abraham did not happen to be a yahudi (i.e. repenter) or a nasara (i.e. helper), but rather, he happened to be a precise muslim (i.e. submissive) ? and he did not happen to be among the assigners of partners (to Allah).

(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)

Don?t you see that the above verse implies following a specific book / external communication is not necessary for being a muslim like Abraham? If your reply is - Abraham followed his own book which was an earlier version of Torah and the Gospel and Qur?an ? than doesn?t that make the above Quranic claim nonsensical? Pay attention brother ? the quoted verses (365-67) clearly imply that following a specific book or any book is NOT A NECESSARY condition for being a muslim.

I think you may have misunderstood the verses above, 365-67, to mean that you don't have to follow a book/external communication to be a muslim like Abraham.

My understanding of verses 365-67 is as follows. Here God is saying that the People of the Book ie the Jews and Christians argue over whether Abraham was a Jew or Christian when in fact he was neither, he was simply a muslim. The Jews and Christians both greatly honour Abraham and probably see him as the founder of the monotheistic faith. Both groups pride themselves as being the true worshippers of God and argue that only they are on the right path.

2135 They say "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To salvation)." Say thou "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah."

Verse 2135 says that the Jews and Christians say that you should become Jews or Christians if you want to be on the right path to God. God tells the prophet Mohammed to say "no, I would rather follow the religion of Abraham". Implying that the Jews and Christians have brought some corruption into their religion. Part of this being that the Christians say that Jesus is the son of God and some Jews say that Uzair/Ezra is the son of God. Not only that, if the Jews and Christians did truly understand God and their religion they would have accepted Mohammed as a prophet and his followers as people of the same monotheistic faith since what Mohammed was preaching was in fact the same religion/ideology as theirs, he was. All monotheistic faiths teach worship of one God and to work righteousness.

However due to people becoming selfish/arrogant/having pride they find it hard to accept that God guides many people. We should be looking carefully at their beliefs and their deeds before judging. Even so we are ordered to behave in the best way regardless of what other people do/believe since we will all meet God on Judgment Day and He will resolve our disputes for us.

My_Name_is_Ted

This is why many people distance themselves from it and often faith altogether.

Have you actually spoken to these people or just guessing? The reason for people turning away from religion are varied. I doubt most of them would find your interpretation appealing/true since it just doesn't tie in with reality and is difficult to understand.

Maybe you think you are the select few who God has chosen to truly understand his words properly. I would advise that you try to understand the Quran in the reality that we live in and base it from that rather going into things which you have no knowledge of.

Man_of_Faith

Ted,

If I had not investigated more carefully myself about Quran, I would have reverted to being a Unitarian Christian to be honest. The traditional interpretation of Quran is a degenerate belief to bring elements of Pagan origin into an innocent faith system and a primitive view of God as a distinct and separate object of worship.

Gladly I found without giving up that the interpretation people have is utterly wrong. Quran follows the same kind of teaching that Jesus came with which you can read about in the Biblical Gospels. Just understand what the text says originally wished to convey when it says Father and Son and you might grasp it better.

There is just one God, but that is also the only entity in existence. Everything else is idolatry. Cease to exist yourself and we can perhaps start talking on the same level.

God does only choose after you realize it yourself. And I understand Quran in its reality and it does not teach another Pagan faith. People always drift towards Paganism on their own and their materialistic tendency.

Salaam

My_Name_is_Ted

Ted,

If I had not investigated more carefully myself about Quran, I would have reverted to being a Unitarian Christian to be honest. The traditional interpretation of Quran is a degenerate belief to bring elements of Pagan origin into an innocent faith system and a primitive view of God as a distinct and separate object of worship.

Gladly I found without giving up that the interpretation people have is utterly wrong. Quran follows the same kind of teaching that Jesus came with which you can read about in the Biblical Gospels. Just understand what the text says originally wished to convey when it says Father and Son and you might grasp it better.

There is just one God, but that is also the only entity in existence. Everything else is idolatry. Cease to exist yourself and we can perhaps start talking on the same level.

God does only choose after you realize it yourself. And I understand Quran in its reality and it does not teach another Pagan faith. People always drift towards Paganism on their own and their materialistic tendency.

Salaam

OK I now see where you are coming from. So you were an Unitarian Christian before. What made you convert to "Islam" or to put it more accurately a follower of the Quran? I'm assuming that you're now a follower of the Quran.

You seem to have created your own definition of paganism and use that group people of all religions such as Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc in that group. This makes it very difficult for people to understand what you are saying since most people use the definition as described in the dictionary rather than your personal private one. It's similar to your reference of the Ten Commandments. You refer to that yet you use different terms for it which just makes the discussion really difficult to understand. Makes you seem like you are all over the place, incoherent.

Perhaps your definitions, concepts make sense in your own fabricated reality but they don't make much sense in the real world which you actually exist. You exist and you exist in this reality, you need to come to terms with it.

Armanaziz

Armanaziz,

Let's say for arguments sake that Mother Teressa and Mahtma Gandhi did actually worship many gods and associate them as partners to God. They did the same good works as before they died.

Would you class them as muslims?

There are many many Christians that do very good charitable work and are selfless, they put others needs before theirs. However they worship Jesus as the Son of God and/or claim he is part of the Trinity.

Would you class them as muslims?

Salam Ted.

Short answer to the above question ?Yes?. Per my understanding ? whoever submits to his God gifted senses of right and wrong, and ?faithfully? lives a righteous life - does qualify for the generic term ?muslim?. That includes faithfully righteous Christians (even who ?worship? Jesus) as well as faithfully righteous Hindus (even who ?worship? various idols). By worship I mean here ?ritual expression of respect? ? not ?being slave to? (ibadat).

To put it in short ? I believe idolatry is a sin and it is a rebellion against Allah. So, an idolater CANNOT be a muslim. But ?idol worship? (without idolatry) is a form of ignorance OR rather and inappropriate/inaccurate method of understanding/approaching piety. Depending on manner of worship and preaching of the same it may be a wrongdoing (zulm) but not necessarily such a severe one that leads to kufr / shirk.

While idolatry and idol worship are generally thought of as the same thing ? I make the following distinction

| Idoltary ? Being slave to an idol (a deity, a person or a concept) in a manner that veneration of the idol becomes a factor in a person?s decision making overruling his personal judgment of right and wrong.

Idol worship ? Ritual expression of respect for an idol (a deity, a person or a concept) which may or may not lead to Idoltary (see above).

Idolaters come in all shape and forms. An idolatar can be an idol-worshiper, a Christian, a Jew or even a so called ?Muslim?. They can even be atheist and budhdhists! Idoltary is about taking an idol (a deity, a person or a concept) and making that idol a reason to spread hatred and envy, a reason to spread corruption and blood-shed and a reason to over-rule one?s God gifted conscience and intellect. Even if the idol is ?One? deity named God or Allah ? they are still idolaters (e.g. ISIS, Boko Haram).

On the other hand "Idol worship" can also take many froms within and outside religion. A hindu worshiper worshiping Ganesha / Rama / Durga is an idol worshipper. A Christian praying to the statue of Jesus is an idol worshiper. A "Muslim" hajji kissing the black stone at kabaa with hope of getting his sins soaked by the stone may be engaged in a form of "idol worship". A patriot saluting a flag or putting flower at monuments commemmorating war heroes may be engaged in "Idol worship".

The same distinction between Idoltary and Idol worship has been discussed by Mahatma Gandhi in details. Gandhi was very aware of the critique of Hindu ?idolatry? proffered by Protestants and Muslims. In a letter of 1940 to a Hindu student troubled over the rupture in his relationship with a Muslim friend Gandhi writes

Maybe your friend has come to think it is sinful to associate with you as you are an idolater. Idolatry is bad, not so idol worship. An idolater makes a fetish of his idol. An idol worshipper sees God even in a stone and therefore takes the help of an idol to establish union with God. (CW 71 303-4).

You can get more details on his religious thoughts here

http//nestor.wlu.ca/press/Journals/sr/issues/31_3-4/salmond.pdf

The above includes also his view of Islam and Christianity. I strongly encourage you to go through this document with an open mind if you are seriously open to learning.

Note a distinction here, though ? Gandhiji was far more tolerant to Idol worship than I am. While he considered it as an acceptable path to piety ? I consider it an inappropriate/inaccurate method of understanding/approaching piety.

Now coming to Christians; if you carefully examine Qur?an what Qur?an specifically forbids are the following claims

That Allah has taken a son / sons and daughter (it implies Allah taking ?biological? offspring)
That Allah is Jesus, son of Mary (it implies a misconception that Allah is not but a human being)
That Allah is one-third of the three (it implies Jesus and Holy spirit to be independent authorities outside Allah) and
That one becomes slave to Jesus / Mary other than Allah (it implies taking Jesus / Mary as a factor in a person?s decision making overruling his personal judgment of right and wrong.)

Then if you study mainstream Christian ideology (be it Catholic or Protestant) you will see neither of them advocates any of the above.

Knowledgeable Christians do understand that Jesus was NOT a ?biological? offspring of God. Rather Jesus was a spiritual Son of God ? and he showed all of us the path to be the sons of God.
Knowledgeable Christians do not say God is Jesus. They say Jesus is Lord. (i.e. Jesus being God?s word living in flesh, a concept that Qur?an endorses, should be considered as the vehicle to understand God).
Knowledgeable Christians do not say Allah is one-third of the three. Knowledgeable Christians are strictly monotheist. (See http//www.everystudent.com/forum/trinity.html). In essence they do not differentiate between God and His messenger (Jesus). This is consistent with Al-Qur?an 4150.
Knowledgeable Christians are not slave to Jesus / Mary other than God. Because they try to follow the teaching of Jesus which is exactly the will of God.

The understanding of a Knowledgeable Christian is nicely summed up in the below words of Mother Teresa

"There is only one God and He is God to all; therefore it is important that everyone is seen as equal before God. I?ve always said we should help a Hindu become a better Hindu, a Muslim become a better Muslim, a Catholic become a better Catholic. We believe our work should be our example to people. We have among us 475 souls - 30 families are Catholics and the rest are all Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs?all different religions. But they all come to our prayers."

"There are so many religions and each one has its different ways of following God. I follow Christ
Jesus is my God,
Jesus is my Spouse,
Jesus is my Life,
Jesus is my only Love,
Jesus is my All in All;
Jesus is my Everything."
(Source https//www.ewtn.com/motherteresa/words.htm)

While I acknowledge the above, I am not personally supporting the statements ?Jesus is the son of God OR Jesus is Lord OR that we should believe in holy trinity?. I consider it exceeding the limits of deen to promote statements like these. While it is possible for knowledgeable Christians to have a correct understanding of God veiled behind the above wordings (Like Mother Teresa had) ? for a vast majority of people these wordings are confusing and misleading. Every community has those common people who ?do not have knowledge of the book without wishful thinking and do not have but beliefs?. The confusing words above have high potential of misleading and deviating them ? just as deviated were the Crusaders, Nazis, KKK and so on. They are the ones who are slave to the ?idol? of Jesus from other than Allah, they are the ones who consider Jesus as biological son of God who will independently intercede with God for his followers. They are the ones who have repressed their faith and they are neither helpers (nasara) nor submissive (muslim).

So, I join the voice of Qur?an to urge all Christian friends to avoid confusing wordings that their fore-fathers have popularized.

4171 O! Fraternity of the book ? do not exceed limits in your resolution (&#1618 and do not say about Allah but the truth. Jesus Christ, son of Mary was only a messenger of Allah and His word which He offered to Mary and a spirit from Him. So, put faith in Allah and His messengers and do not say, ?Three!? Cease! It is better for you. Only Allah is one God. Exalted be Him ? that he would have a son for Him. Whatever (is there) in the heavens and whatever (is there) on the earth (all) belongs to Him and Allah suffices as an Executive.

(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)

Note the term ??it is better for you??, as opposed to ??it will take you to hell??or ??it will make you kafir?? etc.

I think you may have misunderstood the verses above, 365-67, to mean that you don't have to follow a book/external communication to be a muslim like Abraham.

My understanding of verses 365-67 is as follows. Here God is saying that the People of the Book ie the Jews and Christians argue over whether Abraham was a Jew or Christian when in fact he was neither, he was simply a muslim. The Jews and Christians both greatly honour Abraham and probably see him as the founder of the monotheistic faith. Both groups pride themselves as being the true worshippers of God and argue that only they are on the right path.

Verse 2135 says that the Jews and Christians say that you should become Jews or Christians if you want to be on the right path to God. God tells the prophet Mohammed to say "no, I would rather follow the religion of Abraham". Implying that the Jews and Christians have brought some corruption into their religion. Part of this being that the Christians say that Jesus is the son of God and some Jews say that Uzair/Ezra is the son of God. Not only that, if the Jews and Christians did truly understand God and their religion they would have accepted Mohammed as a prophet and his followers as people of the same monotheistic faith since what Mohammed was preaching was in fact the same religion/ideology as theirs, he was. All monotheistic faiths teach worship of one God and to work righteousness.

However due to people becoming selfish/arrogant/having pride they find it hard to accept that God guides many people. We should be looking carefully at their beliefs and their deeds before judging. Even so we are ordered to behave in the best way regardless of what other people do/believe since we will all meet God on Judgment Day and He will resolve our disputes for us.

What was sent down to Abraham, Ishmael, Jacob, the tribes ? what was given to Moses and Jesus ? what is common with all of them is the guidance and wisdom that they internalized. It is not a book. Dear brother Ted, why do you debate concerning Abraham while the Torah and the Gospel, the Qur?an and the Sunnah were not sent down but from after him? So, why do you not understand? Abraham did not happen to be a yahudi or a nasara or a shia or a sunni or a Quranist or follower of any ?established religion? based on a book for that matter, but rather, he happened to be a precise muslim (i.e. A self-motivated pious soul submissive to his God gifted conscience and intellect with precise wording and approach to piety) ? and he did not happen to be among the assigners of partners (to Allah).

So, come to Qur?an with an open mind willing to learn and bend down with those who bend, rather than ruling out clear signs as mere statements for the Jews and Christians. For Allah knows and you do not know.

May Allah guide us to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

Man_of_Faith

Ted,

No. I was not a Unitarian Christian before. I was not a member of any sect. I had only realized about God, but I took mainstream Christianity about a son of God who died for everyone's sin on a cross ridiculous. Honestly I did not know much about the sect Islam.

It is only that if I had not learned anything better about Quran I would have continued looking. Reverted was perhaps the wrong word, I used it because Jesus came before Quran.

And I made a minor separation of God or the "higher intelligence" and I did not understand how God works as I do now. Now I know that the phenomenon God is the only real existence.

And it is you who do not understand Paganism. To be Pagan is to have a materialistic perception of the divine and particularly make a distinct separation of God from Creation and revere that as an object. It does not necessarily mean it has to be polytheism but it can be monotheism.

Even the sect Islam has other clear Pagan elements such as holding a building in the deserts of Arabia revered as a kind of beacon but that is rather showing the materialistic perception of their faith.

Meaningless rituals and rites, usually with many repetitions, is another very profound characteristic of Paganism.

And you can read a dictionary definition and you can see that Pagan refers to materialistic approach and they do not really have any real faith since they do not even have any valid perception of what is God. And their rituals and rites are often the primary reliance for them.

But it is not my fabricated reality and it is actually you who said it who is in a fabricated reality (Pagan delusion). Many people before have spoken the same as I do, e.g. the prophet of Quran, Jesus and also Moses some 4000 years ago.

Salaam

My_Name_is_Ted

Reverted was perhaps the wrong word, I used it because Jesus came before Quran.

Seems like you don't use the correct words in a lot of discussions which is maybe why it's difficult to understand you. Maybe whatever your thoughts/beliefs are are different to what you actually write. My suggestion to you is to use words carefully and think of their meaning and what the read will understand them as. It seems strange that you are analyzing the Quran word by word and interpreting new meanings yet you have a problem with using words in the English language.

My_Name_is_Ted

What was sent down to Abraham, Ishmael, Jacob, the tribes ? what was given to Moses and Jesus ? what is common with all of them is the guidance and wisdom that they internalized. It is not a book.

Please read the following verse, 454, and let me know what you think.

454 Or do they envy mankind for what Allah hath given them of his bounty? but We had already given the people of Abraham the Book and Wisdom, and conferred upon them a great kingdom.

Armanaziz

Salam Ted.

I am not arguing that Abraham and his family was given a book. Verily Qur'an also mentions "Suhufe Ibrahim" (the scrolls of Abraham). What I am arguing is that - the common element that Abraham, his tribes, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad and all Prophets had is not a book. They were given different books. The common element that binds us all together as muslims is the faith and wisdom internalized by the Prophets and their followers - that we have to submit to the One and Only Master of the universe by upholding our sense of right and wrong given to us by the same authority.

The book is the compass.. it guides us, but our conscience and intellect is the ship we ride. Without the compass we will be lost but without the ship we will drown. Everybody on a ship sailing towards the same destination is a musilm, irrespective of which compass they are using, or whether they are simply using the stars in the sky.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

My_Name_is_Ted

I am not arguing that Abraham and his family was given a book. Verily Qur'an also mentions "Suhufe Ibrahim" (the scrolls of Abraham).

So what did you mean by the following

If your reply is - Abraham followed his own book which was an earlier version of Torah and the Gospel and Qur?an ? than doesn?t that make the above Quranic claim nonsensical? Pay attention brother ? the quoted verses (365-67) clearly imply that following a specific book or any book is NOT A NECESSARY condition for being a muslim.

As I said before, the Jews and Christians claim that you need to follow their religion in order to be guided, but God is saying no, whoever follows his guidance is on the right path. This means God can guide whoever he pleases, it is not exclusive to to the Jews and Christians. Please note this is external guidance not the "God gifted guidance" which you refer to and use to justify all righteous people as being classed as muslim.

To be classed as a muslim you need to be following external guidance from God. You cannot follow your own will and claim it is the God gifted will you are following hence you are muslim. The Jews will be judged by the Torah, the Christians by the Gospels, the Muslims by the Quran, the people of Abraham by their book, etc.

There is not one verse in the Quran which says that you are born muslim. It in fact clearly says you become muslim, you are named muslim. It is a different group to those who are simply believers.

Armanaziz

So what did you mean by the following

As I said before, the Jews and Christians claim that you need to follow their religion in order to be guided, but God is saying no, whoever follows his guidance is on the right path. This means God can guide whoever he pleases, it is not exclusive to to the Jews and Christians. Please note this is external guidance not the "God gifted guidance" which you refer to and use to justify all righteous people as being classed as muslim.

To be classed as a muslim you need to be following external guidance from God. You cannot follow your own will and claim it is the God gifted will you are following hence you are muslim. The Jews will be judged by the Torah, the Christians by the Gospels, the Muslims by the Quran, the people of Abraham by their book, etc.

There is not one verse in the Quran which says that you are born muslim. It in fact clearly says you become muslim, you are named muslim. It is a different group to those who are simply believers.

Salam Ted.

I think it is time to conclude that this discussion has indeed become circular. You are acknowledging that "but God is saying no, whoever follows his guidance is on the right path" You also acknowledge that "God can guide whoever he pleases." but you keep on insisting that to be submissive to God one must "follow external guidance from God." Whereas the very essence of the word "Guidance" is that it does not necessarily has to come in a specific format, it is merely a "help" to reach the correct destination.

Once again, divine "books" are external guidance - an extra help for those who are submissive - they are not the destination.

If you do not get this, let's agree to disagree and move on. In sha Allah, someday Allah will bridge our understanding.

May Allah guide us both to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

P.S. I never said you can follow your "will" and claim it is the God gifted will to be a muslim. "Will" is not synonymous to "Conscience". You seemed to have very good understanding of what "God gifted conscience" means - but as the discussion is progressing you seem to be getting even confused on the basics. Or perhaps your urge to win the debate is making you say such things. This is another sign that this discussion should stop.

amin

So what did you mean by the following

As I said before, the Jews and Christians claim that you need to follow their religion in order to be guided, but God is saying no, whoever follows his guidance is on the right path. This means God can guide whoever he pleases, it is not exclusive to to the Jews and Christians. Please note this is external guidance not the "God gifted guidance" which you refer to and use to justify all righteous people as being classed as muslim.

To be classed as a muslim you need to be following external guidance from God. You cannot follow your own will and claim it is the God gifted will you are following hence you are muslim. The Jews will be judged by the Torah, the Christians by the Gospels, the Muslims by the Quran, the people of Abraham by their book, etc.

There is not one verse in the Quran which says that you are born muslim. It in fact clearly says you become muslim, you are named muslim. It is a different group to those who are simply believers.

I think you, are completely wrong on that bolded part.

Quran 22/17
Indeed, those who have believed and those who were Jews and the Sabeans and the Christians and the Magians and those who associated with Allah - Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection. Indeed Allah is, over all things, Witness.

and

Quran 3.84
Say (O Muhammad) We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was vouchsafed unto Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have

So whoever makes no distinction between any of their versions of God is a Muslim.

anyway Let Him be our Judge, I will also stop on this topic.

truthseeker11

Peace Ted,

I will try to explain to you in very simple terms what a muslim is according to Quran.

The opposite of peacemaker/"muslim" is not disbeliever. The opposite of a peacemaker is a criminal

Shall we make peacemakers (al-muslimeen) like criminals (al-mujrimeen)?

Hence, according to Quran, "muslim" is one who makes peace or a "peacemaker" (one who is not a criminal).

So if you are not a criminal, you are a "muslim"/peacemaker. As simple as that. It has nothing to do with any religion or belief system.

Everyone naturally knows that corruption and bloodshed is the opposite of peacemaking. Common nouns such as "peace" and "peacemaking" are universal concepts that God taught humans and they spontaneously appear across cultures, even those that didn't have any contact with one another.

A criminal corrupts and causes bloodshed. On the other hand, by being peacemakers, humans fulfill the responsibility that God entrusted them with. If you are not a peacemaker (muslim) you are a criminal (mujrim) and you will serve yourself (selfishness = root cause of all "bad&quot, and if you are not a criminal you are a peacemaker and you will serve others (do good deeds). We have been given the free will to choose between the two (service to others or service to self), and there will be karmic consequences/implications of this choice (accountability of actions).

muslim = peacemaker = service to others (STO)
mujrim = criminal = service to self (STS)

All modern day countries have laws against crime, and ANYONE who upholds and/or enforces the laws and doesn't commit crimes is thus a peacemaker/"muslim".

You could be a Jew, or a Christian, or a Buddhist, or a Pagan, as long as you uphold and/or enforce your local laws and don't commit crimes and make peace, you are a muslim.

But if you are a Muslim (capital M, proper name, follower of a fabricated religion), and you commit crimes and are a criminal, then you are not a muslim (small m, common noun, used in Quran).

May the infinite Creator bless you.

My_Name_is_Ted

Once again, divine "books" are external guidance - an extra help for those who are submissive - they are not the destination.

The Quran and Torah are not only "extra help for those who are submissive". They contain laws that MUST be obeyed otherwise you are no longer muslim.

544 It was We who revealed the law (to Moses) therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.

547 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

548 To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

The above verses clearly say that the revelations given to groups of Muslims, ie Jews, Christians, followers of Mohammed have to be used when judging each follower of their respective adherents. It is in fact God's intention to give separate laws and rites to certain groups of people. It is not God's intention to only have Jews or to only have Christians or to only have Quran followers. Each group is expected to respect and believe in the other groups. All groups are still classed as muslims since they each obey a will of God. Because they are muslims you can say their religion is Islam. Hence it makes sense that in God's eyes there is only one religion in front of God which is Islam.

Any person/people who creates their own religion it won't be accepted. So those who create books/laws/rituals which have not been prescribed by God via external communication such as revelation then it will never be accepted. Hence why bida/innovation in religion is prohibited in the Quran to stop people creating their own traditions/rituals.

Those believers who simply worship one God and work righteousness but do not follow one of "religions" prescribed by God for whatever reason God MAY forgive them or maybe it's God's intentions to leave them in that state, I don't know. That's between them and God. However these believers must not say anything about God which they have no knowledge of as it will be a lie against God which is a very big sin.

Hope the above makes sense.

I do acknowledge the following comment made by yourself. I shall try to word my comments more clearly to avoid confusion.

I never said you can follow your "will" and claim it is the God gifted will to be a muslim. "Will" is not synonymous to "Conscience".

Armanaziz

Salamun Alaikum.

Without going into the definition of "muslim" (for I consider that a closed topic from my part), it makes sense to discuss a bit about verses 544-548 to analyze why it is critical to judge between men based on scriptures.

Our conscience and intellect is our tool for making decision about our personal choices. But when it comes to judging between people we need to adhere to some basic standards. For example, if a thief steals from me, and gets caught, I may be personally willing to forgive him - and if he has only stolen from me of course I have full authority to forgive him. But if I catch a thief who has stolen from me as well as my neighbor - I CANNOT forgive him on my own account. I must resort to the established law to decide how to judge between the thief and my neighbor. If I belong to a community which is guided by Qur'an, the community has a responsibility to cut-off his "hands" (i.e. his ability to steal again). This can be achieved by implementing a punishment that acts as an effective deterrent, like putting him behind bars for enough time to get counselling and corrective measures or putting him under rigorous supervision of a guardian. The actual punishment must also be proportionate to the harm caused by the crime committed to ensure equitable treatment (a'dl).

Similarly if someone shoots me, I may choose to forgive the criminal on my death bed. But if a criminal kills an innocent person, we must establish the principle of equitable retribution (quisas) when judging between them. It is not up to the judge to forgive a killer.

When it comes to bequeathal of my personal wealth, I can exercise my judgment. If I have a daughter who is a single mother struggling financially and a son who is financially solvent - and they are my only heirs - I can choose to bequeath 80% of my wealth to my daughter and 20% to my son based on consultation with my children. But when it comes to intestacy - a community is obliged to implement a predetermined distribution ratio to avoid chaos.

Thus the justice system works on the basis of pre-determined standards or laws that are generally accepted within a community.

Now it would again be oversimplification to say that every community is obliged to follow some form of "divine scripture" for implementing justice. Revelation through messengers is one of many routes through which God guides people. Furthermore divine scriptures generally provide broad guidelines open for further interpretation and practical implementation. If a community has chosen their law based on public consultation and expert opinion and there is community wide acceptance of the laws derived as such - such laws would become binding upon that community. And individuals within that community would be obliged to accept such laws.

However, it is the law makers obligation that if there is a debate of correct direction of law, for example if there should be any capital punishment or not or what would be the ideal intstate distribution rule, that they resort to divine scriptures (if any) acceptable to the community to get the basic guidelines.

458 Indeed Allah commands you that you deliver the trusted items to its family / fraternity and when you judge among men that you judge equitably. Indeed Allah gives you an excellent instruction thereby. Indeed Allah happens to be Listener, Seer.

459 O! Those who have put faith ? obey Allah and obey the messenger and the ones of command among you. Then if you disagree in anything, then turn it back to Allah and the messenger - if you happen to put faith in Allah and the last day. That is the best and the nicest interpretation.

(My personal translation, emphasis added, cross checking recommended.)

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

amin

Quran verse 544
Sahih International Translation
Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah , and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers.

Tell me if my understanding is right,

Indeed Its Allah who sent down the Torah in which there was a guidance and light, the Prophets who considered God as One, judged(whats right and wrong) for the Jews, as did the Rabbis and scholars who were also entrusted of the Torah judged (whats right and wrong) for the jews. They were all witnesses only, so do not fear the people but only fear Me, and do not take my verses lightly, and whoever does not judge(consider right or wrong) by Allah's examples, then they are called the disbelievers.

Man_of_Faith

Ted,

To be honest, Quran does not contain any additional "laws" that was not already available at its advent.

Besides the commandments, except no separate image of God whatsoever, are so obvious that it is barely necessary to mention them. Those who are hardcore sectarians break them just as often as faithless people anyway.

Salaam

My_Name_is_Ted

Tell me if my understanding is right,

Indeed Its Allah who sent down the Torah in which there was a guidance and light, the Prophets who considered God as One, judged(whats right and wrong) for the Jews, as did the Rabbis and scholars who were also entrusted of the Torah judged (whats right and wrong) for the jews. They were all witnesses only, so do not fear the people but only fear Me, and do not take my verses lightly, and whoever does not judge(consider right or wrong) by Allah's examples, then they are called the disbelievers.

What understanding? All you have done is re-write the verse with some words bolded and a couple of them changed.

My_Name_is_Ted

Ted,

To be honest, Quran does not contain any additional "laws" that was not already available at its advent.

Besides the commandments, except no separate image of God whatsoever, are so obvious that it is barely necessary to mention them. Those who are hardcore sectarians break them just as often as faithless people anyway.

Salaam

Sorry but I failed to see the relevance of this comment.

My_Name_is_Ted

However, it is the law makers obligation that if there is a debate of correct direction of law, for example if there should be any capital punishment or not or what would be the ideal intstate distribution rule, that they resort to divine scriptures (if any) acceptable to the community to get the basic guidelines.

What if the vast majority (99%) of a Muslim community decide to do away with life for life punishment in the Quran for murder and instead sentence the murderer to life imprisonment even though the family of the murdered person demand that he should receive the death penalty as stated in the Quran?

If the Quran is just "help"/guidance then I'm assuming that according to your understanding they should be allowed to override the command in the Quran since 99% of the Mulsim community don't want to implement it.