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  4. Alif-Lam-Miim

Alif-Lam-Miim

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved Questions/Comments on the Quran
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  • B Offline
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    bkanwar2
    wrote on last edited by
    #1

    21

    Man (mankind) has intensely suffered.

    22

    This suffering for you is due to departure from the learned collections of principles. Without a shadow of doubt, a timeless mode of conduct is contained in this collection of principles; for all those, seeking to safeguard against a life, full of fear, grief, sorrow, as well, devoid of intellectual faculty and growth, leading to complete extinction.

    23

    These are ones, who should be able to safe guard from absence of mind about self, as well others, due mind?s preoccupation contemplating divinity. Thereby, they remain stuck in the state of unawareness and privy, from what we have given to them as intellectual and physical means of sustenance, instead of utilizing and dispensing these means of sustenance to all.

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    • M Offline
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      Man_of_Faith
      wrote on last edited by
      #2

      What is this? It is not a translation?

      What is the aim of the thread?

      Alef Lam Meem is supposed to be understood 'alam' according to how I see it and part of the discourse. It is (as grammatical function) + from the root in my opinion which root means assemble/gather/collect (etc) according to Lane's Lexicon. So the phrase begins and the initial letter is saying a' lam. The "mysterious" initials are part of some riddle, although they are quite not so mysterious actually if one treats them as ordinary words (even when there is only one letter).

      So "Be assembled this decree beyond doubt to be a gift to the conscious-minded", although less literal and more fluent English translation would "This decree is beyond doubt assembled be a gift to the conscious-minded".

      It seems even a bit poetically written.

      Salaam

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        bkanwar2
        wrote on last edited by
        #3

        What is this? It is not a translation?

        Salaam

        Peace,

        This is the verbatim translation of the text written above.

        Regards,

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          Man_of_Faith
          wrote on last edited by
          #4

          Verbatim? Okay. That was surely a controversial one.

          Salaam

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            No longer a Sunna-rejecter
            wrote on last edited by
            #5

            7430 On it is nineteen.

            7431 The ingrates will say, "What did God mean by this example?"

            I am no longer a Sunna-rejecter. See 4:59-65, 62:2-4, 3:31, 4:156, 7:157 Messenger teaches and is to be followed and obeyed. Examples of revelation received which is not in the Qur'an: 3:123-126, 33:37, 2:187, 66:3, 62:9.

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              bkanwar2
              wrote on last edited by
              #6

              Verbatim? Okay. That was surely a controversial one.

              Salaam

              Please bring your evidence of the language, starting with 21. Which will prove this translation to be controversial.

              Regards,

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                Man_of_Faith
                wrote on last edited by
                #7

                I was merely gesturing that it was a whole load of words not there in the original script in yours. At least I explained my translation, from 21. Where did you get yours?

                Salaam

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                • B Offline
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                  bkanwar2
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #8

                  I was merely gesturing

                  Salaam

                  Well that is the problem. Gestures upon gestures.

                  Where did you get yours?

                  Salaam

                  All based upon the rules of the language it is written. The foremost principle of understanding any written text.

                  Regards,

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                  • R Offline
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                    reel
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #9

                    If I remember correctly Allah says in a verse that no one will ever know their meanings.

                    But like you all, I am heavily interested in them )

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                      Man_of_Faith
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #10

                      Salaam reel,

                      It is a false inference that no one knows their meaning. It is a misrepresentation. Alternative translations even say "AND those well-founded in knowledge."

                      One just have to think a little and they come clear. I argue I already know the meaning of some of them.

                      Salaam

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                      • S Offline
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                        seekingthetruth
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #11

                        Salam,

                        Would you care to elaborate how did you get this translation? I can't see any relation between the original text and your translation.

                        Since Quran has reached us through recitation, maybe it should not be written like this e.g. ( &#1605.

                        Regards,

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                          bkanwar2
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #12

                          It is not written as only . Please look up a printed Quran it is written as . If one notices there is a Medda on Alif and a Shadda on Miim. Let us remove these signs and see when these linguistic rules are not applied, what it should look like.
                          It should look like this . So what could be its root, . What is its scale/measure/weight with all five letters? , apply Shadda at the end and two Lam are written together , the ninth form of Verb. Please see root Alif Lam Miim. When it is convereted into this measure of ninth form of verb, since root Alif Lam Miim has ?Alif? at ?Fa? kalima, this alif would be combined with Alif/Humza of measure and could be written as one Alif/Hamza with Medda over it, as cited above in written Quranic script.

                          Arabic verbs are sentences and have built in pronouns.

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                            Man_of_Faith
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #13

                            Thanks for making me look at 21 more carefully. I checked more than one version. It is written with a madda on both lam and meem, but not on alef. It is part of the riddle, because you can then see that alef is modifying lam while lam and meem are marked as carrying their own distinct meaning. It is not for pronunciation purposes.

                            So the alef in is to give be + from the root , is my take on it.

                            I gave my translation earlier except that I do not think Raib means doubt. I think it is lent from as to mean it is a substantiated foundation through the added .

                            Salaam

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                            • B Offline
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                              bkanwar2
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #14

                              Thanks for making me look at 21 more carefully. I checked more than one version.

                              So the alef in is to give be + from the root , is my take on it.

                              Salaam

                              I would accept this, hadn't I looked this root up. However, I could not find a rule so far, stating that Medda, can be used to indicate duplication of other consonants, instead of just Alif/Humza. Have you found this rule of language? If you have, please share the reference. I would greatly appreciate it.

                              Regards,

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                                seekingthetruth
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #15

                                Hello,

                                Thank you for the elaboration, it is very clear now, but the version with me has a different punctuation, it is "" with medda on lam & meem, it is clear that you have another version. Do you know why is it pronounced " " or "" instead of ""? and how i get the meaning of "" for
                                for example?

                                Back to the interpretation of "", how did you apply the rule of substitution of letters to get that translation?

                                Regards,

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                                • B Offline
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                                  bkanwar2
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #16

                                  Hello,

                                  Thank you for the elaboration, it is very clear now, but the version with me has a different punctuation, it is "" with medda on lam & meem, it is clear that you have another version. Do you know why is it pronounced " " or "" instead of ""? and how i get the meaning of "" for
                                  for example?

                                  Regards,

                                  I do not know there is a different version that I am looking at. There are two Meddas and also a Shadda over Miim. The first Medda is likely slightly displaced from over Alif to over more on Lam. Why it is pronounced as Alif Lam Miim? Under same misplaced belief that nobody can understand these so called letters.

                                  https//www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=2

                                  I have not found an explanation for the second Medda yet. Is it just extra, for calligraphy? I do not know.

                                  Please understand there is no way to confirm how it was read originally except believing the tradition or Hadith about mystrey of these so called letters. Although, there is no proof that, how it was written originally also; but then, we also don't have any preserved archives of written language from the time of its original writing. All language archives are from times much later than its supposed origin. These archives match with the text, how it is written now and not to the older Qurans. Hence, the only way to understand Quran, is to apply rules from archives of language to current text. Finally, apply Rabb given rationale, the function of mind, to decide if these meanings make sense.

                                  Back to the interpretation of "", how did you apply the rule of substitution of letters to get that translation?

                                  Word Salat is from root, Siin Lam Waw, and not from, Sad Lam Waw.

                                  Regards,

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                                  • M Offline
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                                    Man_of_Faith
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #17

                                    Madda is an ancient diacritical marker to notify the reader/listener that the letter is supposed to be carrying its own meaning. In pronunciation it is a stress on intonation that marks the letter. It is among the only diacritics I consider native with the original (Quranic) Arabic.

                                    It is not normally written so much on a short word like this, but in this case this is a kind of riddle. It is a hint to the interpretation.

                                    Otherwise the madda is usually on modifying (grammar) letters such as and , but there are exceptions. It is anyway for the reader to emphasize on the marked letters, for a reason.

                                    For example, with madda says thereof BE (what is) that the letter carries independent meaning as part of a word. In the alef without madda negates to form a word that means 'not'. Meem alone does not occur normally but it needs an attribute and a lonely alef without marker (madda) is just closing it as a negative (not).

                                    In alef lam meem as in 21 the alef modifies lam (since it has not madda and alef without it exclusively works as a grammar letter in Arabic) so the word should be + . And as I said, I now consider that comes from the trilateral root .

                                    Same goes for the famous (to me infamous) amen/amin word . It is actually with an alef as grammar function before it (prefix). So its meaning is BE thereof/of + argument. If you say amen b'Allah it means you should have its traits. is rather from the root which is the same as . It is an "attribute reference giver". The amen word is more like verb to imply that the person should gain the attribute(s) in question compared to only which is passive.

                                    These are the truths about Arabic and you will not find it with ignorant scholars. The Quranic Arabic was likely forgotten over a period and people could not really decipher it later.

                                    Salaam

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                                      bkanwar2
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #18

                                      I greatly appreciate your post. It is informative. Could you please also provide a reference for what you have said. Or this is what you believe is to be the case.

                                      Regards,

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                                      • M Offline
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                                        Man_of_Faith
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #19

                                        Salaam,

                                        The reference I can give is Lane's Lexicon plus the language itself. It has become obvious to me that words such as a'men, a'mer or a'lam are actually not own roots but the alef has been a bit deceptive due to lack of knowledge and the roots are actually and and .

                                        Salaam

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                                          bkanwar2
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #20

                                          Salaam,

                                          The reference I can give is Lane's Lexicon plus the language itself. It has become obvious to me that words such as a'men, a'mer or a'lam are actually not own roots but the alef has been a bit deceptive due to lack of knowledge and the roots are actually and and .

                                          Salaam

                                          First of all it is not Alif, when it is part of a root, it is should be Hamza. Alif is not part of any root.

                                          But are you saying that there are no roots with Hamza and Lane supports that?

                                          Regards,

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