Ramadhan = ?
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Are you being rhetorical?
there is no point arguing if you have not read the rationale based on Quran.
I'm not arguing I think. Can you give me the twitter or short version of the rationale based on the Qur'an?
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Why wouldn't that tradition persist? Why would it become a whole month later? It would seem that people are eager to reduce things and would have been in the past, I don't know how they could be doing this tradition within the lifetime of the Prophet and then it changes to a whole month and for what purpose? There is no precedent set in other religions of this practice, it is uniquely a Muslim practice of a month long fasting period, it seems to not have suddenly been invented at a later date but has been continuous since at least a pretty early time. The Hadith did not have a widespread impact on the whole Muslim world until relatively recently, even though those traditions were floating around most people didn't know them very well or have access to the books for centuries upon centuries (and most were illiterate to top it off for long periods), yet fasting for a whole month is a tradition found across the Muslim world for a very long time, moon to moon.
It does still persist. September 22-23. This is when jews celebrate yom kippur this year. They fast for 25 hours.
Peace
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@FS, the Arabic word ma3dudat refers to a small amount in Arabic between 3 and 10, ayaman ma3dudat, 3 to 10 days.
What is all this stuff though
O you who believe! fasting is prescribed for you, as it was prescribed for those before you, so that you may guard (against evil). 2183
2184 Fast for a specified number of days, but if any one among you is ill or on a journey, let him fast the same number of days later. For those who can fast only with extreme difficulty, there is a way to compensatethe feeding of a needy person. But he who does good of his own accord shall be well rewarded; but to fast is better for you, if you only knew.
2185 The month of Ramadan in which was revealed the Qur'an, a guidance for mankind, and clear proofs of the guidance, and the Criterion (of right and wrong). And whosoever of you is present, let him fast the month, and whosoever of you is sick or on a journey, (let him fast the same) number of other days. Allah desireth for you ease; He desireth not hardship for you; and (He desireth) that ye should complete the period, and that ye should magnify Allah for having guided you, and that peradventure ye may be thankful.
2186
AND IF My servants ask thee about Me - behold, I am near; I respond to the call of him who calls, whenever he calls unto Me let them, then, respond unto Me, and believe in Me, so that they might follow the right way.2187 IT IS lawful for you to go in unto your wives during the night preceding the fast they are as a garment for you, and you are as a garment for them. God is aware that you would have deprived yourselves of this right, and so He has turned unto you in His mercy and removed this hardship from you. Now, then, you may lie with them skin to skin, and avail yourselves of that which God has ordained for you, and eat and drink until you can discern the white streak of dawn against the blackness of night, and then resume fasting until nightfall; but do not lie with them skin to skin when you are about to abide in meditation in houses of worship. These are the bounds set by God do not, then, offend against them - it is thus that God makes clear His messages unto mankind, so that they might remain conscious of Him.
3335
VERILY, for all men and women who have surrendered themselves unto God, and all believing men and believing women, and all truly devout men and truly devout women, and all men and women who are true to their word, and all men and women who are patient in adversity, and all men and women who humble themselves , and all men and women who give in charity, and all self-denying men and self-denying women, and all men and women who are mindful of their chastity, and all men and women who remember God unceasingly for them has God readied forgiveness of sins and a mighty reward.589
GOD will not take you to task for oaths which you may have uttered without thought, but He will take you to task for oaths which you have sworn in earnest. Thus, the breaking of an oath must be atoned for by feeding ten needy persons with more or less the same food as you are wont to give to your own families, or by clothing them, or by freeing a human being from bondage; and he who has not the wherewithal shall fast for three days . This shall be the atonement for your oaths whenever you have sworn . But be mindful of your oaths!' Thus God makes clear unto you His messages, so that you might have cause to be grateful.595
O ye who believe! Kill not game while in the sacred precincts or in pilgrim garb. If any of you doth so intentionally, the compensation is an offering, brought to the Ka'ba, of a domestic animal equivalent to the one he killed, as adjudged by two just men among you; or by way of atonement, the feeding of the indigent; or its equivalent in fasts that he may taste of the penalty of his deed. God forgives what is past for repetition God will exact from him the penalty. For God is Exalted, and Lord of Retribution.al-Baqarah 2185
So every one of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spend it in fasting,
the biggest relief in life is simply coming to terms with reality, surrendering to the truth of things, it seems easy but when Allah has put people in blissful delusions there is nothing that can wake them up from their dream, the favor of Allah is the awakening of people, but we wake up to the truth of things which is not all that pleasant, but we hope and pray to Allah that we're given the best in this life and the next and any of our experiences, and there is no guarantee for any of us that we will attain it, but we strive hard to make goodness in-front of us always and hope that Allah saves us from trouble and suffering, and that is the way of the Prophets, and the religion of the angels
when I say religion of the angels, we just have a few clues but that give lots of informationThey seem to not like the trouble and bloodshed or plight of the believers, but are surrendered and can't do anything about it except as Allah wills. They say that for Allah it is simply a matter of Be and it is, and they are militant and warriors when they are sent on those tasks, and are transformed freely Allah adding to their creation freely, and they are surrendered also to ignorance, that they know that they don't know except what Allah tells them, and that they glorify Allah unceasingly but we know the glorification of Allah is simply stating facts, just like they stated the facts regarding Be and it Is they never said it is good or anything. They are the ones who have surrendered and surrender to chaos, to war, to whatever Allah wants to create and do.
then the Qur'an brings this imagery in of the eyes and the ears being witnesses and recorders, and that people see themselves doing evil with their eyes and their own hands, and the imagery of what ones own hands send forth and stuff, so one should only witness themselves doing justice and goodness, charity, all that good stuff, restraint
and the angels are in support of the good people, as should we, basically we should be as much like the Prophets and angels as possible, the angels philosophy and their practice of unflagging meditative thinking and truth and surrender, and the Prophets in their softness, sincerity, sensitivity, compassion, and worship and all that
and to be extremists, but not in silly things, but extremists in goodness, because there is nothing to hold on to really, but to be good to ourselves and good to others and kind and charitable to our own families and everyone we encounter, as representatives of justice and excellence in a world where it is scarce
and if in the end we are cast in hell for that, then there wasn't really a chance for us anyway, it should be that we tried our absolute best -
@FS
Stop being lazy, and learn Arabic, as I learnt English, there are inconsistencies in translations.
That is something I seriously should do, I guess I don't want it badly enough even though I really do want to know classical Arabic fluently for the sake of the Qur'an.
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Yeah, instead of wasting your time chit-chatting with clueless bloggers like me
I generally choose what is more fun, so chit-chat it is!
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It does still persist. September 22-23. This is when jews celebrate yom kippur this year. They fast for 25 hours.
Peace
Perhaps that's why @noshirk's findings are more accurate?
Ramadan fasting DAY on Sept 22-23rd?Peace
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I generally choose what is more fun, so chit-chat it is!
Peace @FreedomStands
at risk of being blunt, rude, insensitive, nasty, malicious, etc.
do you enjoy a mental condition like me?
from the way you interact and write,
I conjecture in your case it could be Asperger's or ADHD...
yes? or worse?
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Peace @FreedomStands
at risk of being blunt, rude, insensitive, nasty, malicious, etc.
do you enjoy a mental condition like me?
from the way you interact and write,
I conjecture in your case it could be Asperger's or ADHD...
yes? or worse?
Not that I know of! People who know me in person know me as socially skilled to the point of being dangerous in my ability to manipulate and control people, so perhaps another pop fiction diagnosis is more accurate for me. A really scary psychopath who helps worms and ants and little buggies and wants so many people to suffer horrifically for their criminal ways. Actually that sounds like Batman or something.
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=sw0dSn31EWU
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Not that I know of! People who know me in person know me as socially skilled to the point of being dangerous in my ability to manipulate and control people, so perhaps another pop fiction diagnosis is more accurate for me. A really scary psychopath who helps worms and ants and little buggies and wants so many people to suffer horrifically for their criminal ways. Actually that sounds like Batman or something.
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=sw0dSn31EWU
No, it sounds more like Dexter Morgan >
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No, it sounds more like Dexter Morgan >D
Haha, I thought that too, and I'm glad you brought that up!
I am considering listing a bunch of mental issues symptoms and then describing in what areas I might qualify or why not.
I bet we've got some other cases on this website based on what I've seen.
Maybe we're all just narcissistic, which was taken off the US things but remains in Europe I think.
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Haha, I thought that too, and I'm glad you brought that up!
I am considering listing a bunch of mental issues symptoms and then describing in what areas I might qualify or why not.
I bet we've got some other cases on this website based on what I've seen.
Maybe we're all just narcissistic, which was taken off the US things but remains in Europe I think.
Oh, you are from the USA, that figures /chuckle> land of crazies... ;D
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@FS, the Arabic word ma3dudat refers to a small amount in Arabic between 3 and 10, ayaman ma3dudat, 3 to 10 days.
I wish you could elaborate. I for one tried Google Translate but the word it translated for ma3dudat is 'fixed', not few. Though originally, i started out fasting as the traditionalists, am starting to have second thought.
If ma3dudate mean few(3-10), then we shouldn't be fasting the whole month, 29 or 30 days can't be described as few days. And there is the problem of date. Am fully convinced that our Hijri lunar calendar is incorrect for dating events or rites.
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Peace everyone,
Yes, it is that time of the year again )
1- Meaning of Ramadhan
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( ةWell, we have two possible meanings for ramadhan. One is the "scorching heat" and other is first cloud/rain after heat.
Ramadan in spetember fit with the second one.According to the above we only have one main meaning of ?ramadan? and its derivatives, which has to do with scorching heat. This is the thread that runs in all the meanings. On its own it means heat and when used with ?clouds or rain? it means hot ?clouds or rain? that come in late summer or early fall when the weather is still hot in Arabia. So in the case of ?sahab ramdy? or ?matar ramdy? it means ?hot clouds? or ?hot rain? similar to ?shahr ramadan? meaning ?scorching/hot full-moon?. The Quran talks about scorching full-moon and not hot rain/clouds. In all cases, this negates the winter solstice theory completely.
2- Ripes dates
If we read the passage in context, it talks about Maryam being asked to shake the palm tree to get ripe dates. Shaking the palm tree is not how you harvest dates (try shaking one with all your strength and see if you can move it an inch). Now imagine you are a pregnant woman giving labor. Dates will either fall to the ground by themselves or someone has to climb the palm tree or somehow reach to its top and harvest them. So the whole passage talks about a situation that is out of the ordinary.
if we consider the ripe indication of quran, we are more near december
and 9 month before, we are near equinox (leilatou el qadr) of march.The term ?qadr? is never associated with the sun in the quran. On the other hand, it is clearly associated with the moon
And the moon we have measured it in descending stages until it becomes like a curved sheath.
The word ?qadr? means measure and not equal and the verb ?qadrnah? means ?we measured it? not ?we made it equal?. The word ?manazil? (from nzl/ descend) describes ?descending stages?. So tying it all together, ?laylat alqadr? is the night where the god measures the moon in descending stages until it takes the shape of the crescent. Of course the moon can only descend in shape from the full-moon. So this is the night of full-moon and has absolutely nothing to do with the equinox.
Also, it is impossible to count a year according to 1712 based on the equinox. It has to be one of the solstices. We already established that the term ?ramadan? rules out the winter solstice. So we are only left with the summer solstice.
17.12. We have made the night and the day as two signs the sign of the night We have obscured, while the sign of the day we have made visible so that you may seek favors from your Lord, and so that you may know the number of years and the calculation, and We have explained all things in detail.
Hajj is collective. Hajj is a collective feast during 3 days.
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so hajj occurs 4 times a year, around equinoxes and solstices. But only ramadhan is for individual saoum.So we agree that hagg means feast. It also takes place in known full-moons that are known to all people, not just those who believe in the great reading or who are member of a particular religion. This automatically indicates that the period of hagg/feast must be one where food is plentiful. This means it must be a harvest feast. Of course harvest of most fruits and vegetables is in the summer until early fall. There is no harvest in the winter solstice. Also, in the spring in Arabia there is only harvest of grains such as wheat and not much else. So all this certainly points to the four inviolable full-moons being the harvest full-moons (all cultures regardless of religion or beliefs know about the harvest moons), which are consecutive, three in the summer and the fourth and last one is in early fall. This also happens to be when hunting is restricted since there are now alternative food sources and livestock is plentiful. Also, this is when most young newly born wild animals are still dependent on their mothers. They start being self-dependent by the fall. This is why everywhere in the civilized world hunting season for wild game is started in the fall.
All in all, the evidence converges very nicely on shahr ramadan being the full-moon after the summer solstice. So I think this is the right direction, unless some drastic new evidence appears or the earth or moon is completely destroyed by an asteroid )
I posted a video in Arabic on the Quran4Peace facebook page, which summarizes this understanding
https//www.facebook.com/video.php?v=471577376343492
I miss you guys )
Peace and all best wishes to everyone,
Ayman
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According to the above we only have one main meaning of ?ramadan? and its derivatives, which has to do with scorching heat. This is the thread that runs in all the meanings. On its own it means heat and when used with ?clouds or rain? it means hot ?clouds or rain? that come in late summer or early fall when the weather is still hot in Arabia. So in the case of ?sahab ramdy? or ?matar ramdy? it means ?hot clouds? or ?hot rain? similar to ?shahr ramadan? meaning ?scorching/hot full-moon?. The Quran talks about scorching full-moon and not hot rain/clouds. In all cases, this negates the winter solstice theory completely.
Peace ayman, miss you too )
2185 shr/cycle ramadan the one descended in it the Qur?an
Was doing research on kalala found this naration interesting...
Abu Talha reported 'Umar b. al-Khattab (Allah be pleased with him) delivered a sermon on Friday and made a mention of Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and he also made a mention of Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) and then said I do not leave behind me any problem more difficult than that of Kalala. I did not refer to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) more repeatedly than in case of the problem of Kalala, and he (the Holy Prophet) never showed more annoyance to me than in regard to this problem, so much so that he struck my chest with his fingers and said 'Umar, does the verse revealed in summer season, at the end of Sura al-Nisa' not suffice you? Hadrat 'Umar (then) said If I live I would give such verdict about (Kalala) that everyone would be able to decide whether he reads the Qur'an or he does not.
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Peace brother Noon )
Peace ayman, miss you too )
2185 shr/cycle ramadan the one descended in it the Qur?an
Was doing research on kalala found this naration interesting...
Abu Talha reported 'Umar b. al-Khattab (Allah be pleased with him) delivered a sermon on Friday and made a mention of Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and he also made a mention of Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) and then said I do not leave behind me any problem more difficult than that of Kalala. I did not refer to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) more repeatedly than in case of the problem of Kalala, and he (the Holy Prophet) never showed more annoyance to me than in regard to this problem, so much so that he struck my chest with his fingers and said 'Umar, does the verse revealed in summer season, at the end of Sura al-Nisa' not suffice you? Hadrat 'Umar (then) said If I live I would give such verdict about (Kalala) that everyone would be able to decide whether he reads the Qur'an or he does not.
Although I wouldn't give much weight to the Hadith and I would need to see the Hadith in Arabic to see the exact word it uses for "summer season"
( ) (ص (ص ! ! .
Apparently the word that is erroneously translated as "summer season" is "sayf", which doesn't mean summer in classical Arabic. The Arabs had 6 seasons and not 4 like we do now. "Sayf" fell in late April to late June while the season "qyz" (what we call summer) fell from late June to late August.
Perhaps it is a minor distorted trace of the original practice. Similarly, it is Sunna to fast the three days around the full-moon. They call them the "white days" in Sunna. This could be a trace of an alternate understanding that the fast is marked by the full-moon and is for three days.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman,
It's been a long time. Good to see you post )
I would agree and disagree with some of the things you said. Let me list them as points
- I can agree with the meaning ascribed to Ramadhan as "scorched/parched". I have seen an alternative, but the general use of the word seems to carry the day.
- I can agree that the parched/scorched period for the Middle East ranging between June 20 and September 22 (Summer solstice to Fall equinox when the rains hit the dry/hot earth).
- I can agree that the month begins with the full moon.
- I can agree that fasting is for 10 days (ayam madoodat) and that we must "complete the count".
- I don't agree that the meaning of "shahr" is "full moon" as that creates a distortion in a number of verses which speak of the period required as a full cycles and not just the 10 days of the full moon cycle.
- I don't agree that Maryam encountered a miraculous palm tree as dates hang from trees less than 1 meter and shaking such palm tree would allow its ripened dates to fall.
- I don't agree that the full moon of the summer solstice is the correct fast due to"
a) the valid point noshirk mentioned of "qadr/measure" being a description of the night of Ramadhan, and that the Equinox is the only month during the June-September period where the day and night, if they are measured, would be equal;
b) the fast of summer creates hardship (contrary to what Go tells us) as people who would work in the open would suffer;
c) the summer solstice has the longest day of the year (northern hemisphere) which would take the fast to extreme hours in some habitable regions.
Regards,
