WHAT DOES QURAN SAY ABOUT BIBLICAL CORRUPTION
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Freedomstands,
How can you call Jesus of the Biblical Gospels a bad man? What in it is fierce? He taught very good things.
Overall he teaches Gnostic thought however. In fact very closely. And he came to a Gnostic community where people practiced in general to be minimalistic, even if people often were hypocrites, especially the clergy and scholars.
He calls physical/exaggerated worshipers of a deity for Pagans. Which is not a curse word but a definition for people who are materialistic/worldly.
He said "return to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and what belongs to God to God" subtly rebuking the Paganism in both practices.
Actually Quran also teaches Gnostic style faith underneath the fabricated language.
Be well
Do you want me to waste my time getting you a bunch of quotes you don't care about or should we just skip it? I think skipping it might be best. I could show you lots of crap in it though, but I think it is a waste of the time to go through such an effort as I do repeatedly just to be ignored and disregarded, it isn't important. People will just lie on top of lies about whatever they imagine to justify or explain away anything. My whole point for bringing up these things are to try to make people face things they can't explain away, but they manage to explain everything away and live in a world full of bunny rabbits and what-not.
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Yes indeed, Freedomstands. It is better you skip them.
I could show you a lot of crap with Quran as well.
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To Freedomstands
Refuting you over the teaching of Christ is just as pointless as refuting those who only see vulgarity and oppression in Qur'an. If one does not have the capacity to appreciate the metaphor in the statement "If your eye cause you to sin, gauge it out"... then one has no right to defend the metaphor in... "for the male and female thieves - so cut of their hands". You find Luke 1927 vile and oppressive but effectively the same statement in Qur'an (533) becomes enlightening!
No, I do not say this country or that country is Satan. My Master has given me enough knowledge to appreciate there is good and bad, evil and divine in every country, in every individual, in every race, in every religion. Rather wholesale generalization is the trick of Satan.
I have no obligation to guide you, Guidance is with my Master - if you find it "cruel" then be it. Rather my Master has taught me when the signs of Allah are repressed - when messengers of Allah are mocked and ridiculed, I should stay away, lest I be counted among the hypocrites.
4140 And certainly He has sent down to you in the book that - when you hear signs of Allah being repressed with it and being mocked with it ? then do not sit with them until they chat about narratives other than it. Indeed then you (would be) like them. Indeed Allah will gather the hypocrites and the ones who repress (faith) in Hell altogether.
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
Or, how Jesus taught
"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces." (Matthew 76).
So have fun with your "Luciferian and Satanic terminology" or whatever - for you is your resolution, for me is mine.
Arman
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"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces." (Matthew 76).
The metaphor in that parable is so fierce. I like this sarcastic expression. I should be better at learning from it so I do not have to be torn into pieces.
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The 3rd / 4th Century CE was the era of corruption of the first edition of the Book of ALLAH. I reject the legend that it was circulated by Ptolemy of Egypt in the 2nd century BCE on the basis of zero evidence.
The above verse proofs that the last Prophet came at the time when the hidings and obliteration of the Book were being carried out and at the time when the Quran was first sent down.
If Prophet Muhammad?s ministry was in the 7th Century CE, 300 years after Nicea, what is the point of warning when the Book had already been distorted! Do you think is going to be easy.That is totally incorrect. Torah was textually corrupted even before the arrival of Jesus(P) let alone Muhammad(P). How do we know that? Read Jeremiah 88
?How can you say, ?We are wise, and the law (Torah) of the LORD is with us??
But behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.Here Jeremiah is admitting that scribes had perverted the truth of the law (Torah) into a lie.
Secondly, Deut 34 which is a last book of Torah (supposedly authored by Moses) talks about his funeral, is now widely accepted by both Jewish and Christian scholars as a fabrication and interpolation.
Deuteronomy 345
5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD, 6 and he buried him in the valley in the land of Moab opposite Beth-peor; but no man knows the place of his burial to this day.
7 Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died; his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.
8 And the people of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days; then the days of weeping and mourning for Moses were ended.Comments
Some say that this was written by Joshua (Rabbi Abraham Ben Meir Ibn Ezra)It is indeed not authored by Moshe. Perhaps either Joshua or one of his followers. (Torah- The Modern Commentary by Rabbi Gunther Plaut).
Thirdly, the translation of Old Testament from Hebrew to Greek (Septuagint LXX) has lots of mistakes in it (which existed before Prophet Muhammad (P)) as compared to Masoretic Text.
So your ?The 3rd / 4th Century CE was the era of corruption of the first edition of the Book of ALLAH? theory goes out of the window.
It clearly shows that YOU ARE AN UMMIYUNA - ONE WHO HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF THE BOOK EXCEPT WISHFUL THINKING AND THAT THEY EXCEPT CONJECTURES.
You believe in the doctrines of men but not ALLAH. You are not a believer! Maybe submitter. The Quran is very clear to say that Prophets were sent to PROTECT THE BOOK OF ALLAH !. There were many prophets came before the Last Prophet Of ALLAH. All you wrote are nothing but BULLSHIT AND AS SUCH I HAVE NO CHOICE BUT OT FLUSH IT IN THE SHIT HOLE.
Christianity was established officially in 4th Century CE by Constantine. It is plausible his father Constantius I, had plan of its doctrine and some scriptures were wrote prior to the Creed of Nicea.
The ANTIQUITY of the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament).
Constantine needed some religious literature that was old, which was NOT Greek, and which could be used as a platform. It had to have an antiquity comparable to the Greek and Egyptian histories. Somehow, he came across the Hebrew Bible - possibly in the library of Caesarea, and possibly translated by Origen. .?Greco-Romans ?not only had knowledge of Book of Moses but also the entire Old Testament. They had Septuagint (LXX) is their possession which is a Greek translation of Hebrew Bible.
Just try to understand the fallacy in your statement. Let?s say for the sake of argument I agree with you. If they have NO knowledge of the book, then how can they corrupt it? How can you corrupt something of which you don?t possess no knowledge of? Secondly, how did you reach the conclusion that the verse 278 is talking about Book of Moses? If so then how come New Testament quotes Torah (Book of Moses) 100 TIMES. How can they quote Torah if they don?t have any knowledge about it? That doesn?t make any sense.
Now let?s talk about who corrupted the scriptures in 275-278
275 Do you then hope that they(the Jews)would believe in you, and a party from among them(the Jews) indeed used to hear the Word of Allah, then altered(yuarrifnahu) it after they(the Jews) had understood it, and they(The Jews) know
(So it is established here beyond the show of the doubt that Jews did corrupt the scriptures)
276 And when they (The Jews) meet those who believe they say We (The Jews) believe, and when they (The Jews) are alone one with another they say Do you talk to them (The Jews) of what Allah has disclosed to you that they (The Jews) may contend with you by this before your Lord? Do you not then understand?
277 Do they not know that Allah knows what they keep secret and what they make known?
278 Among them are gentiles who do not know the scripture, except through hearsay, then assume that they know it.
(Gentiles do not know the scripture. They except through heresay.)
279 Therefore, woe to those (The Jews) who distort the scripture with their own hands, then say, "This is what GOD has revealed," seeking a cheap material gain. Woe to them for such distortion, and woe to them for their illicit gains.
?Woe to those!? Who is this referring to? This is NOT referring to the Gentiles, because they had no knowledge of the book hence they cannot corrupt it. But rather it?s referring to the people who altered / wrote / added / edited book of Allah i.e The Jews. How do we know this? Go back to 275 it clearly states that the Jews distorted (yuarrifnahu) the scripture.
So Mr Tarek, whose words do you trust, our CREATOR or Prof. Bart Ehrman's?
I agree with Quran where religious guidance is concerned. I also agree with Prof. Bart Ehrman where his expertise in the field are concerned. They are not in contradiction. What I don?t agree with is your interpretation imposed on the text. One that?s not consistent with the biblical history, one that is not consistent with historical context within the Quran.
Mr. Hizbullah I am staying with somebody and my access to computer is very limited. I?ll get back to the Prophet Muhammad?s lineage and the proof of his existence in 7th century using non Islamic sources in a week or so.
I do appreciate your time and your true efforts.
Peace.
Just try to understand the fallacy in your statement. No where in the verses 0275 to 79, mentioned Jews. Its your own interpolation. As I have said earlier YOU ARE A GOOD EXAMPLE OF UMMIYUNA!
275 Do you then hope that they (the Jews)would believe in you, and a BREAK AWAY PARTY from among them (the Jews) indeed used to hear the Word of ALLAH, then altered (yuarrifnahu) it after they (the Jews) had understood it, and they (The Jews)know
(So it is established here beyond the show of the doubt that Jews did corrupt the scriptures)
No way, its your own interpolation, in the Quran, the Jews were never called break away party but people who were given a Section of the Book
276 And when they (The Jews) meet those who believe they say We (The Jews) believe, and when they (The Jews) are alone one with another they say Do you talk to them (The Jews) of what Allah has disclosed to you that they (The Jews) may contend with you by this before your Lord? Do you not then understand?
277 Do they not know that Allah knows what they keep secret and what they make known?
278 Among them are gentiles who do not know the scripture, except through hearsay, then assume that they know it.
(Gentiles do not know the scripture. They except through heresay.)
Among them were the Ummiyuna, they were the Greco-Romans.
The Quran 0378
And indeed, there is among them a break party who alter the Book with their tongues so you may think it is from the Scripture, but it is not from the Scripture. And they say, "This is from Allah ," but it is not from Allah. And they speak untruth about Allah while they know.
It was the Greco-Romans and their ally the Bani Israel, who distort the Book with the Greco-Roman language. The Bani Israel were very close to the Greco-Romans. The Quran 0578 -
Cursed were those who disbelieved among the Children of Israel by the tongue of David and of Jesus, the son of Mary. That was because they disobeyed and transgressed.
They used not to prevent one another from wrongdoing that they did. How wretched was that which they were doing.
You see many of them becoming allies of those who disbelieved. How wretched is that which they have put forth for themselves in that Allah has become angry with them, and in the punishment they will abide eternally.
And if they had believed in Allah and the Prophet and in what was revealed to him, they would not have taken them as allies; but many of them are defiantly disobedient.
And also please read 6214
O you who have believed, be supporters of Allah , as when Jesus, the son of Mary, said to the disciples, "Who are my supporters for Allah ?" The disciples said, "We are supporters of Allah." And a faction of the Children of Israel believed and a faction disbelieved. So We supported those who believed against their enemy, and they became dominant.
THE ISREALITE, A PORTION BELIEVES AND A PORTAION DISBELIEVE. THE BECAMEE THE BREAK AWAY PARTY. FURTHER PROOF 3410
And We gave David bounty from Us 'O you mountains, echo God's praises with him, and you birds!' And We softened for him THE IRON
The above verse proof that the break away party was the Bani Israel. Historical evidence suggested that the Greco-Romans have contact with the South Arabians in the 4th / 5th Century BCE. These South Arabians were the Bani Israel. The knowledge of iron was past down to the Greco-Romans by the Bani Israel. As such the Greco-Romans became the first to use the art of armour in warfare. They managed to defeat the Archamaied Persian Empire and hence, ruled from Britain to the Indus Valley.
279 Therefore, So woe to those (The Jews) who distort the scripture with their own hands, then say, "This is what GOD has revealed," seeking a cheap material gain. Woe to them for such distortion, and woe to them for their illicit gains.
The letter FA is prefixed resumption particle, it demonstrate an event and it is connected to verse 78.
The Ummiyuna who have no knowledge of the Book but only conjectures and so they wrote a book and say it is rom ALLAH, the same people who distort the Book of Musa with their language. We all know that the OT was written in Greco-Roman language. Why?
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Freedomstands,
How can you call Jesus of the Biblical Gospels a bad man? What in it is fierce? He taught very good things.
Can you please explain your point to me when you talk about "Jesus of the biblical gospels". I have some queries for you if you don't mind.
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Jesus of the Gospels is supposed to be one of a trinity. So if Jesus is God then he is also the "God" of the Old testament correct? He could not be "God" in the new testament and then disassociate himself from the God of the old testament. If you believe in the Jesus of the Gospels then you have to also believe that he was the same Jehovah who said a lot of stuff which is in the old testament.
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Do you agree with the teachings of Jesus mentioned in the old testament or taurah of the jews?
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If you don't believe that he was God, then you believe in the Jesus of the Quran. Do you agree?
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Is Quran in your opinion a sadistic and violent book which commands people to commit terrorism?
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If you believe that then why do you believe in it as the words of God
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If you don't believe it to be words of God then why do you pretend to accept it. Just come out and say what your true beliefs are.
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- Jesus of the Gospels is supposed to be one of a trinity.
Salam OnlyOneGod.
Sorry for poking my nose in this discussion. Could you please share with me any verse from the canonized Gospels which proclaim
- Jesus is one of a trinity.
- God is one of a trinity.
- God is Jesus.
- God has taken a child.
Seriously, I may be carrying a misconception about the Gospels. Do correct me if you find any statement in the Gospels supporting any of the above claims.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
OnlyOneGod,
Can you please explain your point to me when you talk about "Jesus of the biblical gospels". I have some queries for you if you don't mind.
Because you ask so nicely I will explain.
- Jesus of the Gospels is supposed to be one of a trinity. So if Jesus is God then he is also the "God" of the Old testament correct? He could not be "God" in the new testament and then disassociate himself from the God of the old testament. If you believe in the Jesus of the Gospels then you have to also believe that he was the same Jehovah who said a lot of stuff which is in the old testament.
Arman gave your answer quite well already.
Jesus said "I am in the Father and the Father in me", not that he actually was the Father, who is our Sustainer. It is like comparing it to the "umbrella-effect" I have been using as a parable on the forum.
The 'Old Testament' is a mix of falsehood, truth, and a lot of bad interpretations just like Quran. One should not forget a lot of the 'Old Testament' is written in Aramaic, a relative to Arabic, not to mention the strange "Hebrew". There is one point in the 'Old Testament' in the beginning of Exodus that is worth paying attention to however, and that is when the Sustainer says to Moses that "I AM THAT I AM" and go to the Children of Israel and tell "I AM has sent me to you".
That goes together with the elaboration I made to you about the nature of the word allah, but you did not heed my explanation. Not my fault, but the point is that there is no separate god to be looking for, it is all symbiotic. No need for worship either, but it is always good to do the will of the Father which means to be grow into perfection. The Sustainer is looking for prospective rulers in the Spirit.
- Do you agree with the teachings of Jesus mentioned in the old testament or taurah of the jews?
The decree and teachings that Jesus taught are based on the so-called 'Ten Commandments'.
They were as follows prior to distortion of the interpretation of them
- Be attached to your Sustainer in union.
- Do not make any image of anything in Heaven or Earth and worship it.
- No vain talk
- Keep the Sabbath (contemplate, use the mind to reflect)
- Treat thy neighbor as thyself, honor your parents
- You should not murder
- You should not steal
- You should not commit illicit sex
- You should not carry false testimony
- You should not covet your neighbors property
Jesus elaborated on some of them, without changing their fundamental meaning
- You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
- Then repay to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God
- Moses said that you should care for your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say do also care for your enemy
- Moses said you should not murder, but I say do not even be angry with your neighbor
- Moses said that you should not commit adultery, but I say one who looks upon another woman with desire has already committed adultery in their mind.
He did also talk about every other commandment, but this is what he elaborated upon the most. Notice that the first commandment's word is "love", but love means attachment.
That is not really altering these "guidelines", but doing even better than the basic law, yielding better spiritual results. It was not Jesus' fault that the clerics had corrupted the instructions, so he had serious problems with the clergy when he talked about the two first commandments.
- If you don't believe that he was God, then you believe in the Jesus of the Quran. Do you agree?
I see no inconsistency, except what is generated due to poor interpretations. Jesus is written in Arabic.
- Is Quran in your opinion a sadistic and violent book which commands people to commit terrorism?
Yes. You should kill them unless they perform salat. And it incites hatred towards everyone who is a mushrik or kafar and may increase pride and arrogance. But that is not because it REALLY says so, but because of the hypocrites who fabricated a language on top of the real one.
- If you believe that then why do you believe in it as the words of God
Because underneath the dirt I found a treasure, and I am excavating more until it is completely revealed.
- If you don't believe it to be words of God then why do you pretend to accept it. Just come out and say what your true beliefs are.
I know it is the word of "GOD", but the fabricated language is not. The dirt. It is just someone or some people who shoveled a mound of dirt on top of it.
Be well
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Salam OnlyOneGod.
Sorry for poking my nose in this discussion. Could you please share with me any verse from the canonized Gospels which proclaim
- Jesus is one of a trinity.
- God is one of a trinity.
- God is Jesus.
- God has taken a child.
Seriously, I may be carrying a misconception about the Gospels. Do correct me if you find any statement in the Gospels supporting any of the above claims.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
ArmanMatthew 2819 - Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost
1 Corinthians 86 - But to us one God, the Father, of whom all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom all things, and we by him.
2 Corinthians 1314 - The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, with you all. Amen. ( to the Corinthians was written from Philippi, of Macedonia, by Titus and Lucas.])
John 114 - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (Recall the "The Word is with God and the Word is God"
1 John 57-8 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost and these three are one.
Colossians 29 - For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
John 11-51 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
1 Peter 12 - Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
John 1030-36 - I and Father are one.
1 John 49
By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten
Son into the world so that we might live through Him.John 114
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as
of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.John 316
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever
believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.John 118
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is
in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.John 318
He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already,
because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.Enjoy.
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Salamun Alaikum.
Thanks FreedomStands for the collection of quotes. It was actually quite helpful. This will help illustrate what I was trying to imply.
First of all, one point to note in the quoted statements is that virtually all of them come from the commentary of the scribes (popularly believed to be the disciples of Jesus, but researchers would generally agree these books are written by later day scribes based on the narratives of the disciples); not based on direct statements of Jesus.
Before we look into these commentary, let?s quickly see how Jesus supposedly defended his ?Son of God? claim.
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
39 Therefore they sought again to take him but he escaped out of their hand,
40 And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode.
41 And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle but all things that John spake of this man were true.
42 And many believed on him there.(From John 1024-42; King James Version)
The above paragraph is particularly significant because it shows how Jesus defended his unique claims in front of the Jews ? who were his primary audience.
Read very carefully 34-36, it demonstrates by calling himself ?Son of God? Jesus is only utilizing the linguistic already present in the Law (Torah). Verily the old testament also says in many places that men are sons of God (e.g. Genesis 64). Jesus DID not claim to be a ?biological? child of God because of virgin birth or anything, he used the term ?Son of God? as a figure of speech already known to his primary audience. Verses 37-38 also shows that he did not demand blind faith in him because of him being ?genetically / biologically a child of God?, rather he proclaimed the designation of ?Son of God? because He conveyed the Word of God through his words and actions.
One may bring the verse 30 where Jesus appears to be saying ?I and my Father are one.? To show that Jesus did blaspheme. But behold, Qur?an also teaches that the messenger and God are not to be differentiated
4150 Indeed those who repress (faith) in Allah and His messengers and intend that they differentiate between Allah and His messenger and say, ?We put faith in some and we repress (faith) in others? and intend that they take a path between that ?
4151 They are the ones ? they truly are repressing (faith) and We have prepared a humiliating suffering for the ones who repress (faith).
(My personal translation, emphasis added, cross checking is recommended.)
I do recognize that some of the statements in the New Testament are over-enthusiastic expressions which exceed the limits. Wordings like ?only begotten son? are particularly disturbing. But Just like we must understand hadith narrations in light of Qur?an and not the other way around. We should understand the writings of the scribes based on what Jesus said, and not the other way around. See, how the same Gospel of John, which calls Jesus the ?only begotten son?, keeps the designation open
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.(From John 110-13; King James Version)
The word ?Trinity? is not from the Bible ? it is the work of latter day Theologians. A pure understanding of Trinity is a monotheist understanding ? that God and the Holy spirit and the Son (i.e. God?s words manifested in Jesus) are the same. But those who have the habit of rushing to a quick conclusion, quickly fall in the trap of thinking that God is one of the three or one third of the three. That my friend is blasphemy. The term ?Son of God? is not but a figure of speech used by the earlier nations
930 ?And the yahud said ? Uzair is son of Allah; and the nassara said ? Christ is son of Allah.? ? That is their statement with their mouth. They imitate the statements of those who repressed (faith) from before. ?May Allah kill them. How deluded they are!?
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
One cannot have God except through Jesus. By the same token one cannot have God except through Qur?an. Because the path of Jesus, the path of Qur?an is the same path ? the path that leads to Allah. But the moment we imagine that Jesus can be an independent authority to help convince God, or Qur?an/Muhammad can be an independent authority to help convince God, we open the doorway of shirk.
Qur?an clarifies the confusion created by the ?Son of God? terminology by making it absolutely clear that God is unquestionably above the act of childbearing. But Qur?an does recognize Jesus indeed was a Word of God that was given to Mary, and that he was the spirit of God. Qur?an does recognize the Christ. So, let?s not confuse ourselves by thinking that Jesus preached three Gods.
4171 O! Fraternity of the book ? do not exceed limits in your resolution (ْ and do not say about Allah but the truth. Only The Christ, Jesus - son of Mary - was a messenger of Allah and His word which He offered to Mary and a spirit from Him. So, put faith in Allah and His messengers and do not say, ?Three!? Cease! (It is) better for you. Only Allah is one God. Exalted be Him ? that he would have a son for Him. Whatever (is there) in the heavens and whatever (is there) on the earth (all) belong to Him and Allah suffices as an Executive.
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Arman
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If there is an idol known as Jesus, it may be best to take a large stone and crush it's head.
"Ye are Gods" is a pretty misleading justification. I think I would've rallied for the execution of the blasphemer, then the burning of the Torah and an invitation to being proper Roman citizens.
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEakV0ZqRqI
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Is that your choice of course of action, Freedomstands?
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OnlyOneGod,
Because you ask so nicely I will explain.
Arman gave your answer quite well already.
Jesus said "I am in the Father and the Father in me", not that he actually was the Father, who is our Sustainer. It is like comparing it to the "umbrella-effect" I have been using as a parable on the forum.
The 'Old Testament' is a mix of falsehood, truth, and a lot of bad interpretations just like Quran. One should not forget a lot of the 'Old Testament' is written in Aramaic, a relative to Arabic, not to mention the strange "Hebrew". There is one point in the 'Old Testament' in the beginning of Exodus that is worth paying attention to however, and that is when the Sustainer says to Moses that "I AM THAT I AM" and go to the Children of Israel and tell "I AM has sent me to you".
That goes together with the elaboration I made to you about the nature of the word allah, but you did not heed my explanation. Not my fault, but the point is that there is no separate god to be looking for, it is all symbiotic. No need for worship either, but it is always good to do the will of the Father which means to be grow into perfection. The Sustainer is looking for prospective rulers in the Spirit.
The decree and teachings that Jesus taught are based on the so-called 'Ten Commandments'.
They were as follows prior to distortion of the interpretation of them
- Be attached to your Sustainer in union.
- Do not make any image of anything in Heaven or Earth and worship it.
- No vain talk
- Keep the Sabbath (contemplate, use the mind to reflect)
- Treat thy neighbor as thyself, honor your parents
- You should not murder
- You should not steal
- You should not commit illicit sex
- You should not carry false testimony
- You should not covet your neighbors property
Jesus elaborated on some of them, without changing their fundamental meaning
- You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
- Then repay to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God
- Moses said that you should care for your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say do also care for your enemy
- Moses said you should not murder, but I say do not even be angry with your neighbor
- Moses said that you should not commit adultery, but I say one who looks upon another woman with desire has already committed adultery in their mind.
He did also talk about every other commandment, but this is what he elaborated upon the most. Notice that the first commandment's word is "love", but love means attachment.
That is not really altering these "guidelines", but doing even better than the basic law, yielding better spiritual results. It was not Jesus' fault that the clerics had corrupted the instructions, so he had serious problems with the clergy when he talked about the two first commandments.
I see no inconsistency, except what is generated due to poor interpretations. Jesus is written in Arabic.
Yes. You should kill them unless they perform salat. And it incites hatred towards everyone who is a mushrik or kafar and may increase pride and arrogance. But that is not because it REALLY says so, but because of the hypocrites who fabricated a language on top of the real one.
Because underneath the dirt I found a treasure, and I am excavating more until it is completely revealed.
I know it is the word of "GOD", but the fabricated language is not. The dirt. It is just someone or some people who shoveled a mound of dirt on top of it.
Be well
"Jesus said "I am in the Father and the Father in me", not that he actually was the Father, who is our Sustainer. It is like comparing it to the "umbrella-effect" I have been using as a parable on the forum."
By Jesus of the Gospels I obviously meant the interpretation of Jesus as his followers of the Gospels portray. Our own interpretation of the Gospels is another matter all together.
"The 'Old Testament' is a mix of falsehood, truth, and a lot of bad interpretations just like Quran. One should not forget a lot of the 'Old Testament' is written in Aramaic, a relative to Arabic, not to mention the strange "Hebrew". There is one point in the 'Old Testament' in the beginning of Exodus that is worth paying attention to however, and that is when the Sustainer says to Moses that "I AM THAT I AM" and go to the Children of Israel and tell "I AM has sent me to you"."
why do you believe that this part of the torah mentioning "I AM THAT I AM" is also not a mix of falsehood, and bad interpretations just like the Quran? Do you have any analysis to back up its authenticity or truth? Are you sure on the aramaic translation that you got?
"That goes together with the elaboration I made to you about the nature of the word allah, but you did not heed my explanation. Not my fault, but the point is that there is no separate god to be looking for, it is all symbiotic."
Who says that I'm looking for a separate God? There is only one God.
"The decree and teachings that Jesus taught are based on the so-called 'Ten Commandments'."
Quran is also based on those ten commandments that you quote (although some of your ten commandments seem to be more your own creation rather than Gods)?
"Jesus elaborated on some of them, without changing their fundamental meaning"
So do you believe that Muhammad also elaborated on a lot of things mentioned in the ten commandments?
"He did also talk about every other commandment, but this is what he elaborated upon the most. Notice that the first commandment's word is "love", but love means attachment."
And have you checked whether this verse of the bible in original Aramaic translates to "love". I know how you are so strict on true translations and thus I ask. Do you think that Quran and Allah do not talk about love in the Quran?
"Yes. You should kill them unless they perform salat. And it incites hatred towards everyone who is a mushrik or kafar and may increase pride and arrogance. But that is not because it REALLY says so, but because of the hypocrites who fabricated a language on top of the real one."
So you think that Quran is a sadistic and violent book. Where does Quran tell us to kill people who do not perform salat?
It incites hatred towards the mushrik and the kafir? Really? Because it didn't incite me to do those things. Can you elaborate on where and when you were incited by the Quran to act in such ways?"Because underneath the dirt I found a treasure, and I am excavating more until it is completely revealed."
Please show to me and the world the exact verses that were leading you towards violence. And how exactly are you re-translating those verses to mean something more to your liking. Please concentrate on these violent verses and not on your re-interpretations of salaat or qibla etc.
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By Jesus of the Gospels I obviously meant the interpretation of Jesus as his followers of the Gospels portray. Our own interpretation of the Gospels is another matter all together.
Then be also humble when by the Islam of Qur'an the majority of the world "obviously means" the interpretation of Qur'an as the majority of followers of Qur'an portray (or the official Islamic Clergy portray). Our own interpretation of the Qur'an is another matter all together.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Is that your choice of course of action, Freedomstands?
Certainly! It is always my choice to kick butt!
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Salam OnlyOneGod.
Sorry for poking my nose in this discussion. Could you please share with me any verse from the canonized Gospels which proclaim
- Jesus is one of a trinity.
- God is one of a trinity.
- God is Jesus.
- God has taken a child.
Seriously, I may be carrying a misconception about the Gospels. Do correct me if you find any statement in the Gospels supporting any of the above claims.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
ArmanWhen I say Jesus of the Gospels , I meant what the adherents of that faith believe in. Not how we interpret those very same Gospels.
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OnlyOneGod,
Because you ask so nicely I will explain.
Arman gave your answer quite well already.
Jesus said "I am in the Father and the Father in me", not that he actually was the Father, who is our Sustainer. It is like comparing it to the "umbrella-effect" I have been using as a parable on the forum.
The 'Old Testament' is a mix of falsehood, truth, and a lot of bad interpretations just like Quran. One should not forget a lot of the 'Old Testament' is written in Aramaic, a relative to Arabic, not to mention the strange "Hebrew". There is one point in the 'Old Testament' in the beginning of Exodus that is worth paying attention to however, and that is when the Sustainer says to Moses that "I AM THAT I AM" and go to the Children of Israel and tell "I AM has sent me to you".
That goes together with the elaboration I made to you about the nature of the word allah, but you did not heed my explanation. Not my fault, but the point is that there is no separate god to be looking for, it is all symbiotic. No need for worship either, but it is always good to do the will of the Father which means to be grow into perfection. The Sustainer is looking for prospective rulers in the Spirit.
The decree and teachings that Jesus taught are based on the so-called 'Ten Commandments'.
They were as follows prior to distortion of the interpretation of them
- Be attached to your Sustainer in union.
- Do not make any image of anything in Heaven or Earth and worship it.
- No vain talk
- Keep the Sabbath (contemplate, use the mind to reflect)
- Treat thy neighbor as thyself, honor your parents
- You should not murder
- You should not steal
- You should not commit illicit sex
- You should not carry false testimony
- You should not covet your neighbors property
Jesus elaborated on some of them, without changing their fundamental meaning
- You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
- Then repay to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God
- Moses said that you should care for your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say do also care for your enemy
- Moses said you should not murder, but I say do not even be angry with your neighbor
- Moses said that you should not commit adultery, but I say one who looks upon another woman with desire has already committed adultery in their mind.
He did also talk about every other commandment, but this is what he elaborated upon the most. Notice that the first commandment's word is "love", but love means attachment.
That is not really altering these "guidelines", but doing even better than the basic law, yielding better spiritual results. It was not Jesus' fault that the clerics had corrupted the instructions, so he had serious problems with the clergy when he talked about the two first commandments.
I see no inconsistency, except what is generated due to poor interpretations. Jesus is written in Arabic.
Yes. You should kill them unless they perform salat. And it incites hatred towards everyone who is a mushrik or kafar and may increase pride and arrogance. But that is not because it REALLY says so, but because of the hypocrites who fabricated a language on top of the real one.
Because underneath the dirt I found a treasure, and I am excavating more until it is completely revealed.
I know it is the word of "GOD", but the fabricated language is not. The dirt. It is just someone or some people who shoveled a mound of dirt on top of it.
Be well
"Arman gave your answer quite well already."
And I have given him my nice answer as well.
"The 'Old Testament' is a mix of falsehood, truth, and a lot of bad interpretations just like Quran. One should not forget a lot of the 'Old Testament' is written in Aramaic, a relative to Arabic, not to mention the strange "Hebrew"."
You believe that and yet still talk about comparing your re-interpretation of the Quran to the versions of the Torah. Should you not start by re-interpreting the older texts to assertain their authenticity before moving on to the "newer" texts to make you claims?
"Jesus said "I am in the Father and the Father in me", not that he actually was the Father, who is our Sustainer. It is like comparing it to the "umbrella-effect" I have been using as a parable on the forum."
Which aramaic text did you use to get this meaning from?
"There is one point in the 'Old Testament' in the beginning of Exodus that is worth paying attention to however, and that is when the Sustainer says to Moses that "I AM THAT I AM" and go to the Children of Israel and tell "I AM has sent me to you"."
Kindly share that original aramaic text with us so we can also check the existence of "I AM THAT I AM" etc.
"No need for worship either, but it is always good to do the will of the Father which means to be grow into perfection."
And which part of the Torah told you that there is no need for worship. We cannot discuss if you do not reference your claims.
"Jesus elaborated on some of them, without changing their fundamental meaning"
So would it be acceptable to you if Muhammad (PBUH) elaborated on many more of these things without changing their fundamental meanings?
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References!? YOU WANT REFERENCES?! YOU SHALL NOT TEST THE LORD YOUR GHOD!
Haha.
Here, I'll help to make it easier for people to go and find these things maybe
1411
Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.What!? Mention of "evidence"? Uh oh!
"Aramaic Bible in Plain English
?Believe that I am in my Father and my Father in me, otherwise believe because of the works.?Exodus 314
"God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites 'I AM has sent me to you.'"John 858
"Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"http//biblehub.com/lexicon/exodus/3-14.htm
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Freedomstands,
The Father is also in me and I am in the Father. No big deal. Such is the result of "separating the spirit from the flesh".
Be well
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Freedomstands,
The Father is also in me and I am in the Father. No big deal. Such is the result of "separating the spirit from the flesh".
Be well
Yeah, it is no big deal to me either.