Baccata and Haj
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https//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Hejaz-English.jpg/275px-Hejaz-English.jpg
Most Historians believe there was indeed Christian presence in this region. Furthermore, since there were Jews even in Southern Arabia, it is believed by the majority of academics that the place of revelation was Mecca and Medina, and that there was a presence of Christians and Jews already established there at the time.
I'm just saying what the majority of mainstream academics believe, they are not of the opinion in the mainstream of academia and Arab and Islamic studies that the place of revelation was anywhere other than Mecca and Medina, and thus Mecca and likewise belief that Mecca and Medina had a presence of Jewish and Christian people, and this is no surprise considering it being known that Jews and Christians were present all over there, in Ethiopa across the shore, Jews in Southern Arabia, and whatever else, including Nestorians. It is believed there were trading routes and camel trails and all sorts of things.
The mainstream academic view is that Mecca had trade and commerce, had Christians, Jews, and Polytheists before Islam, and things like that.
My God, even the trade route is highly disputed to have ever existed including a meccan node. You seem totally ignorant of the western scholars who challenge everyone of the viewpoints you deem academic here. Yes you can prove christian and jewish influence during time of revelation in Ethiopia, in Yemen, in Palestine, in Jordan, but not in Hijaz. Where is your evidence?
You may want to check the historical data we have from the abraha expedition. Not even mentioning Mecca. http//www.mnh.si.edu/epigraphy/e_pre-islamic/fig04_sabaean.htm
How do you explain such an expedition to totally bypass the Hijaz region if it was supposed to have an established christian influence?
Peace
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If that's the academic view, then show me one archaeological finding of the remains of a church in the hijaz region? We can find those in Yemen, none in Hijaz however.
It simply doesn't exist.
Peace
That is definitely the mainstream majority non-Muslim academic view, but I am not disagreeing with you either.
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubail_Church
Reality is also quite silent when disagreeing.
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Saudi_Arabia
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Your evidence is a church at the Persian Gulf? How is this Hijaz? Do you know where hijaz is?
Peace
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http//www.academia.edu/829636/Pre-Islamic_Christianity_in_Arabia
Anyway, yes, there are academics who contend, I am just stating the majority mainstream academic view coming from non-Muslim as well as Muslim scholars is relatively the same.
The trade route thing is in all the academic books practically. Do you read lots of the academic books? My sister is a PHD in History, and I've studied with non Muslim academics and materials for years. Please understand, I'm not like the crap talkers on this forum, when I am saying something I am saying it very carefully.
I am not ignorant of what I am saying.
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http//www.academia.edu/829636/Pre-Islamic_Christianity_in_Arabia
Anyway, yes, there are academics who contend, I am just stating the majority mainstream academic view coming from non-Muslim as well as Muslim scholars is relatively the same.
The trade route thing is in all the academic books practically. Do you read lots of the academic books? My sister is a PHD in History, and I've studied with non Muslim academics and materials for years. Please understand, I'm not like the crap talkers on this forum, when I am saying something I am saying it very carefully.
I am not ignorant of what I am saying.
I do read academic books. I have no doubt you do as well. But I'm not convinced of
- christian influence in the hijaz region during time of qurans revelation
- the existence of a trade node involving Mecca during that era
If you cant provide evidence of either one, feel free to ask your sister. The document you linked only speaks of north-western influences, which fits my understanding. A north-western arabic milieu. Not a southwestern one.
Pace
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Your evidence is a church at the Persian Gulf? How is this Hijaz? Do you know where hijaz is?
Peace
I linked where "Hijaz" is, do you know where "Hijaz" is?
https//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Hejaz-English.jpg/275px-Hejaz-English.jpg
That is "Hijaz", right?
This is "Persian Gulf"
http//marketingland.com/wp-content/ml-loads/2012/05/Screen-shot-2012-05-17-at-5.44.44-AM-600x395.png
I understand that it is on the far end there, I am just trying to show the presence of Christianity all over the place through that area, Ethiopia right there, and then all the way over to that other coast.
This is why academics have no problem accepting the existence of Christianity in the Hijaz area which I showed you and the presence of Jews and Christians in Mecca in Medina which they consider the place where this religion was started.
That is the mainstream academic view.
Sorry if the Jubail thing was confusing. The point was you keep saying "not in the Hijaz" when the academics identify that whole green area as Hijaz, and say that there were Christians there, and say that there were Christians in Mecca and Medina.
This is only disputed by a minority, it is not the mainstream academic view that there were no Christians anywhere in that green highlighted region.
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I linked where "Hijaz" is, do you know where "Hijaz" is?
https//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Hejaz-English.jpg/275px-Hejaz-English.jpg
That is "Hijaz", right?
This is "Persian Gulf"
http//marketingland.com/wp-content/ml-loads/2012/05/Screen-shot-2012-05-17-at-5.44.44-AM-600x395.png
I understand that it is on the far end there, I am just trying to show the presence of Christianity all over the place through that area, Ethiopia right there, and then all the way over to that other coast.
This is why academics have no problem accepting the existence of Christianity in the Hijaz area which I showed you and the presence of Jews and Christians in Mecca in Medina which they consider the place where this religion was started.
That is the mainstream academic view.
Sorry if the Jubail thing was confusing. The point was you keep saying "not in the Hijaz" when the academics identify that whole green area as Hijaz, and say that there were Christians there, and say that there were Christians in Mecca and Medina.
This is only disputed by a minority, it is not the mainstream academic view that there were no Christians anywhere in that green highlighted region.
Well, yeah it was a very bad example. It falls nowhere within the boundaries of that hijaz region. You keep saying academics agree on Christians in the Hijaz region but even in that document you linked it doesn't many any such thing. If it is mainstream, please provide me with some archaeological evidence of a church in the hijaz region, or even a scripture speaking about any established christian commune in that area.
Peace
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Wait a minute are you actually confusing the Red Sea with the Persian Gulf? You are!
Jubail is at the persian Gulf, Hijaz is at the Red Sea bro.
Peace
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I do read academic books. I have no doubt you do as well. But I'm not convinced of
- christian influence in the hijaz region during time of qurans revelation
- the existence of a trade node involving Mecca during that era
If you cant provide evidence of either one, feel free to ask your sister. The document you linked only speaks of north-western influences, which fits my understanding. A north-western arabic milieu. Not a southwestern one.
Pace
Since the entire green highlighted region is Hijaz, and since the academics accept the presence of Christians in Mecca and Medina, there is among the mainstream academics the view that Christians existed in the Hijaz. That is all I am trying to point out, I am not saying if I believe them or not, I have no idea if there was a Christian in the Hijaz or not, even now.
http//faculty.washington.edu/brownj9/LifeoftheProphet/Arab%20Converts%20to%20Islam%20in%20Pre-Islamic%20Mecca%20-%20Osman.pdf
I'm simply saying that since the mainstream view is "that green region is Hijaz" and "Mecca and Medina are in that green region" and "Mecca and Medina had Christians and Jews", they are saying "the Hijaz had Christians and Jews, since Mecca and Medina are the places where Muhammed was and was dealing with them".
You can go to any faculty pretty much around the world and they will for the most part agree with this, there is a minority that does not, it is not yet a mainstream view that "there were no Christians or Jews in Mecca and Medina and Muhammed was not in Mecca and Medina" or anything like that. This is just factual, I am not saying "I know for a fact there were Christians and Jews there" since I don't know if there is a Christian or a Jew even in my backyard for certain.
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Wait a minute are you actually confusing the Red Sea with the Persian Gulf? You are!
Jubail is at the persian Gulf, Hijaz is at the Red Sea bro.
Peace
I know that, are you not reading what I'm writing very carefully?
I am not confusing them lol.
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You seriously expect me to continue this debate when you can't distinct the red sea from the persian gulf?
Peace
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Bro Jubail is nowhere near the Red Sea. I suggest you take another look at those maps you linked and then tell me again whether or not Jubail is within the hijaz boundaries.
Peace
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Well, yeah it was a very bad example. It falls nowhere within the boundaries of that hijaz region. You keep saying academics agree on Christians in the Hijaz region but even in that document you linked it doesn't many any such thing. If it is mainstream, please provide me with some archaeological evidence of a church in the hijaz region, or even a scripture speaking about any established christian commune in that area.
Peace
Well one of the main scriptures is the Qur'an.
It isn't hard to google search or torrent search and get books on Islamic history written by non-Muslim historians. They all for the most part agree that Mecca and Medina were the places Muhammed was and that he was dealing with Christians and Jews.
That is all I'm saying. I'm not making up that it is what is believed by the mainstream of academics.
For them, the evidence is possibly "Mecca and Medina are in the Hijaz. Christians and Jews are mentioned in the Qur'an as being present there. It is believed Muhammed was in Mecca and Medina. Therefor Christians and Jews were in Mecca and Medina and were being referred to by Muhammed in the Qur'an". It is so simple, what is the difficulty? I am not saying it is true or not. I am saying that is the mainstream academic view on the matter.
The fact that they were even past that region in Yemen and elsewhere, and in the north parts of what is highlighted green, besides the view that they were present with Muhammed in Mecca and Medina, all disqualifies any statement that says "the mainstream majority of academics do not believe that Christians and Jews were in the green highlighted region known as Hijaz, and were not in Mecca and Medina with Muhammed".
I am not saying "There really were!", you have to pay really close attention to what I am saying.
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Bro Jubail is nowhere near the Red Sea. I suggest you take another look at those maps you linked and then tell me again whether or not Jubail is within the hijaz boundaries.
Peace
Did I ever say it was close to the Red Sea? Just read what I'm writing carefully, don't rush. I know that it is in the Persian Gulf region, you might have missed my explanation of why I showed that and what I am saying.
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Well one of the main scriptures is the Qur'an.
It isn't hard to google search or torrent search and get books on Islamic history written by non-Muslim historians. They all for the most part agree that Mecca and Medina were the places Muhammed was and that he was dealing with Christians and Jews.
That is all I'm saying. I'm not making up that it is what is believed by the mainstream of academics.
For them, the evidence is possibly "Mecca and Medina are in the Hijaz. Christians and Jews are mentioned in the Qur'an as being present there. It is believed Muhammed was in Mecca and Medina. Therefor Christians and Jews were in Mecca and Medina and were being referred to by Muhammed in the Qur'an". It is so simple, what is the difficulty? I am not saying it is true or not. I am saying that is the mainstream academic view on the matter.
The fact that they were even past that region in Yemen and elsewhere, and in the north parts of what is highlighted green, besides the view that they were present with Muhammed in Mecca and Medina, all disqualifies any statement that says "the mainstream majority of academics do not believe that Christians and Jews were in the green highlighted region known as Hijaz, and were not in Mecca and Medina with Muhammed".
I am not saying "There really were!", you have to pay really close attention to what I am saying.
The point is not whether there are academics who claim what you say. They question is are they right. If they are please provide historical evidence of such. Jubail is still not in the Hijaz region no matter how much you want it to be. So what is your evidence? Or are you just taking their word for it?
Peace
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You seriously expect me to continue this debate when you can't distinct the red sea from the persian gulf?
Peace
You are not reading what I am saying. I know where the Persian Gulf is. I know where the Red Sea is. I know where the Hijaz is. I know that Jubail is not in the Red Sea and I explained why I showed Jubail, it had nothing to do with proof to you of a Church in Hijaz.
You are not reading carefully. Read carefully.
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Did I ever say it was close to the Red Sea? Just read what I'm writing carefully, don't rush. I know that it is in the Persian Gulf region, you might have missed my explanation of why I showed that and what I am saying.
Why would you use an example of a ancient church outside the Hijaz region entirely when this debate is about the Hijaz region? What was in Jubail seems totally irrelevant. I've seen your explanation you say "I understand that it is on the far end there" => that is an understatement it is not even near Hijaz whatsoever. So please if you aren't just trying to waste my time give me a solid example of ancient christianity inside Hijaz.
Peace
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This is incorrect Crone, Hoyland, Hawting and many others all dispute this meccan origin. They may have been a minority but many of the issues they raised are still on the table. Even some of Luxenberg's ideas.
See http//research-islam.blogspot.be/2014/01/the-revisionist-history-of-islams.html
Peace
They are a minority, therefor when I say "the majority academic view" I do not mean "the minority academic view".
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The point is not whether there are academics who claim what you say. They question is are they right. If they are please provide historical evidence of such. Jubail is still not in the Hijaz region no matter how much you want it to be. So what is your evidence? Or are you just taking their word for it?
Peace
I never said Jubail was anywhere near the Hijaz reason, I explained even why I showed it.
I never said the mainsteam view was right. I said that is the mainstream view. Try to read carefully what I am saying.
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You are not reading what I am saying. I know where the Persian Gulf is. I know where the Red Sea is. I know where the Hijaz is. I know that Jubail is not in the Red Sea and I explained why I showed Jubail, it had nothing to do with proof to you of a Church in Hijaz.
You are not reading carefully. Read carefully.
I am reading you but you are not making much sense so far. You seem unwilling to address a specific question with an exact answer. Do you expect me to believe there were christians in Hijaz just because in Jubail there were too? What kind of logic is that?
Peace