Baccata and Haj
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No, I meant that it is like going from using Hadith of Muslims to Hadith of Jews. I didn't say you are using a Hadith of Muslims, I am saying you seem to be using references to Jewish writings that identify this or that.
The Tanakh is a hadith? Is that what Quran calls it?
Are the People of the Book the People of the Hadith Books? I don't think so. My thesis is perfectly sustainable without any hadith culture. Strictly scripture.
Peace
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I often link wiki info that is unedited, including contradictory views and hadith interpretations outside the scriptural for completeness, not that I require them to support any of my understanding.
Peace
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I'm obliged to give older scripture a bigger weight when trying to identify Abrahamic landmarks.
Considering Marwa the Jewish account is by all references 1,700 years predating Islam's account.
2 Chronicles 31 "Then Solomon began to build the house of the LORD at Jerusalem in mount Moriah, where appeared unto David his father; for which provision had been made in the Place of David, in the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite."
But yeah there are many hadith concerning the binding of Isaac. But I have never heared about pre-Judaic ones. Without Quran it would be impossible to make sense of which ones could hold any truth. I try not to resort to hadith but compare the quranic account to the biblical one and there is too much overlap to be coincidental imho.
Peace
Yes, the Jewish account and practice is far older. That wasn't the point though. The Jews didn't seem to say "Safa and Marwa", I am not saying that is necessarily in Arabia, and it appeared the Jews only based the idea that Abraham sacrificed on Moriah and "this is Moriah" on their own traditions which, knowing how the Persians made the Hadith, could well be totally made up. The older and further back you go in history, the less easy it becomes to verify things. Why so much trust and faith in their practices and traditions as if they don't just make up stuff like the Muslims have? Just because a thing might be totally made up way earlier doesn't make it any more true or false than something made up yesterday.
Also if you can reply to the bit in my email about the other Jewish traditions, like the arm wrapping and the little hat thing.
I'm also expelled from the Assembly of the Lord according to the Bible I think, so its kind of hopeless for me.
Also, where was Muhammed situated again?
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The ka3ba must be then that famous and known cube that was in Jerusalem. Not inYemen, where there are many of those, but in Jerusalem in Palestine, because everything must needs revolve around Jerusalem, which is not mentionned nor described in the Qur'an, book, it is worth remembering, that came down to straighten things out, weed the many corruptions and whims pushed into the religions prreviously.
But the Qur'an was wrong, it did not come to end the confusion, but rather to become itself confused. Do we understand that now?
Jerusalem is sacred, the Qur'an is not.
Salaam
Good points! Jerusalem alaikum to you!
I must say, as a pagan arab, I could probably understand being pretty darn annoyed with a Prophet who won't shut up about Jerusalem without actually ever taking its name directly, then telling me "its a test, do you know what I mean?"
I'd say, what jews! what christians! what people of the book! There are none in the whole Hijaz, except those who walk by rapidly so as not to say too much or stay long enough to be considered settled, yet look identical to us, yet are somehow distinguished by monks who I've also never heard of because monks are nowhere to be seen in the hijaz, and I am a trader but not a trader since Mecca and Medina is not a trading place, and the Hadith is only true when it says some things that are particular, but not many other things it says.
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Yes, the Jewish account and practice is far older. That wasn't the point though. The Jews didn't seem to say "Safa and Marwa", I am not saying that is necessarily in Arabia, and it appeared the Jews only based the idea that Abraham sacrificed on Moriah and "this is Moriah" on their own traditions which, knowing how the Persians made the Hadith, could well be totally made up. The older and further back you go in history, the less easy it becomes to verify things. Why so much trust and faith in their practices and traditions as if they don't just make up stuff like the Muslims have? Just because a thing might be totally made up way earlier doesn't make it any more true or false than something made up yesterday.
Marwa is of course an import that underwent change to fit the arabic orthography. Of course Jews would address it in their own language. One could claim however South Arabian Jews may very well have called it just that - Marwa and my have been the channel to the importation. I trust that scripture because it is 100% compatible with Quran, Quran says about it "the people of the Book will recognize it like they recognize their sons". Confirming that this tradition had some pretty good knowledge about the topics mentioned in the verses dealing with the qibla and kaab. Another reason is that the mainstream interpretation, which contradicts the biblical, is 90% based on hadith and 10% on facts by my humble estimation. So I think it's kind of ironic for one who is constantly reiterating the mainstream view to be labeling the Judaic understanding of anything abrahamic "persian hadith". The mainstream meccan masjid al haram, kaab, hajj fits that label way better being written 300 years later by some collector of hearsay and fantasy.
I think my methodology is way sounder than using hadith. I'm using sources confirmed to be trusted on the matters of qiblah and masjid al haram in Quran.
Also if you can reply to the bit in my email about the other Jewish traditions, like the arm wrapping and the little hat thing.
I'm also expelled from the Assembly of the Lord according to the Bible I think, so its kind of hopeless for me.
Also, where was Muhammed situated again?
I think the arm wrapping is superstitious. Much like muslims who think owning a copy of the Quran makes them owners of some magical power eminating from the Book without reading and trying to understand it.
Though my personal advise to a few of you active in this thread is to wrap your arms. It seems to me reading Quran has been equally helpful so far for you. So might as well wrap your arms, face the brick and make sure you don't tell anyone you are a christian when doing your hajj and all should be gucci.
Peace
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Marwa is of course an import that underwent change to fit the arabic orthography. Of course Jews would address it in their own language. One could claim however South Arabian Jews may very well have called it just that - Marwa and my have been the channel to the importation. I trust that scripture because it is 100% compatible with Quran, Quran says about it "the people of the Book will recognize it like they recognize their sons". Confirming that this tradition had some pretty good knowledge about the topics mentioned in the verses dealing with the qibla and kaab. Another reason is that the mainstream interpretation, which contradicts the biblical, is 90% based on hadith and 10% on facts by my humble estimation. So I think it's kind of ironic for one who is constantly reiterating the mainstream view to be labeling the Judaic understanding of anything abrahamic "persian hadith". The mainstream meccan masjid al haram, kaab, hajj fits that label way better being written 300 years later by some collector of hearsay and fantasy.
I think my methodology is way sounder than using hadith. I'm using sources confirmed to be trusted on the matters of qiblah and masjid al haram in Quran.
I think the arm wrapping is superstitious. Much like muslims who think owning a copy of the Quran makes them owners of some magical power eminating from the Book without reading and trying to understand it.
Though my personal advise to a few of you active in this thread is to wrap your arms. It seems to me reading Quran has been equally helpful so far for you. So might as well wrap your arms, face the brick and make sure you don't tell anyone you are a christian when doing your hajj and all should be gucci.
Peace
Why are some things superstitions and other things not? How do you select which is which?
Those things come from Jewish traditions the same as "this is Moriah, this is the place where Abraham sacrificed" and all that. How are you distinguishing and selecting between which is which? The circumcision for example, and whatever?
They call this cherry picking. Many people do it. I am not saying you are necessarily doing it, but what is your criteria for selecting which things the Hadith of Jews or Muslims say is true or not true?
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Some things metaphorical, some things literal, how do you distinguish it?
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Some things metaphorical, some things literal, how do you distinguish it?
The argument of embarrassment. When a story embarrasses the cultural/religious group that is author to the story this adds weight to it's historical weight. Eg No sunni muslim would be fabricating a lie in the hadith that embarrasses or contradicts their own doctrines or Prophet.
In the story of Abraham there is also an argument of embarrassment present. The forefather of the Jewish faith about to slaughter his own son for his God? If this version is a fabrication then it would make no sense no Jewish person would fabricate such a concept because it would embarrass their own culture and religion.
Of course none of such arguments of embarrassment mean anything by themselves. If they match with archaeological findings one could say there has to be at least some truth to it.
For instance there is a ancient archaeologica
Peace
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Can you delineate in bullet points when you have the time the facts you are presenting?
I am looking for the location of Muhammed, etc. I don't care about proof yet. I am just wanting like
Muhammed was here, this is what happened, etc etc this is where he dealt with the jews, this is where he was, this is where they came from.
Then if you want me to, I can try to find issues with it, but if you want me to just leave it at that, that is fine too, I can just say "ok thank you, that is what I wanted to know".
What I really, really, want to know, is why are we abandoning some Jewish things and not others?
How do we know which is which? Why don't we just be fully Jewish and try to imitate the Judaism reconstructed from around that time? There are pretty good records of it so it isn't entirely impossible maybe to accomplish that.
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The argument of embarrassment. When a story embarrasses the cultural/religious group that is author to the story this adds weight to it's historical weight. Eg No sunni muslim would be fabricating a lie in the hadith that embarrasses or contradicts their own doctrines or Prophet.
In the story of Abraham there is also an argument of embarrassment present. The forefather of the Jewish faith about to slaughter his own son for his God? If this version is a fabrication then it would make no sense no Jewish person would fabricate such a concept because it would embarrass their own culture and religion.
Of course none of such arguments of embarrassment mean anything by themselves. If they match with archaeological findings one could say there has to be at least some truth to it.
For instance there is a ancient archaeologica
Peace
I don't know I find that argument really risky. What if it was the enemies of those good people who wrote or inspired such stories?
I don't know, it seems a bit weird to me. What do we take of the good things said?
Plus, it was Persians writing about him.
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Visit masjid al haram in Mecca being a christian and trust me you will get arrested. I will keep rebelling against such a qibla. Never will I accept it. It is not a safe place for pilgrims whatsoever.
Ironically if a Jew or a Christian tries to pray inside Temple Mount (aka Masjid al-Aksa), they too get arrested. Even the access of so called "Muslims" to this sight is also significantly restricted. If "universal access" has to be a criteria for the "Qibla", Jerrusalem does not stand up to that test either.
For me Qibla is nothing more than a reference point towards which I turn to express my followership of a specific messenger who taught the same universal faith through newly standardized practices. For me the Qibla does not need to be a magical place. There are numerous verses in Qur'an which confirm that different communities follow different practices and rituals and in Qur'an I put my trust. For you is your Qibla, for me is mine.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Ironically if a Jew or a Christian tries to pray inside Temple Mount (aka Masjid al-Aksa), they too get arrested. Even the access of so called "Muslims" to this sight is also significantly restricted. If "universal access" has to be a criteria for the "Qibla", Jerrusalem does not stand up to that test either.
For me Qibla is nothing more than a reference point towards which I turn to express my followership of a specific messenger who taught the same universal faith through newly standardized practices. For me the Qibla does not need to be a magical place. There are numerous verses in Qur'an which confirm that different communities follow different practices and rituals and in Qur'an I put my trust. For you is your Qibla, for me is mine.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
ArmanDo you do the Mecca Qibla? Where are you located currently?
Also, anyway, the main point being made in this thread I think by runninglikezebras is the following, which I will put into my own words
The Jewish traditions, some of them, such as the turning towards Jerusalem, were never supposed to be turned against, and the later Arab conquerors or some Kings or Persians maybe or some bad group decided later on to make this Islam distinct from basically Jewish stuff like the pilgrimage to Jerusalem and whatever.
That seems to be basically the point, and sure, that totally may have happened, we weren't there so I have no idea if it did really happen or not, but it is possible for sure that such a thing happened.
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Do you do the Mecca Qibla? Where are you located currently?
I turn to Al Masjid-al-Haram in Mecca during my salaat ritual - as my Qibla.
Also, anyway, the main point being made in this thread I think by runninglikezebras is the following, which I will put into my own words
The Jewish traditions, some of them, such as the turning towards Jerusalem, were never supposed to be turned against, and the later Arab conquerors or some Kings or Persians maybe or some bad group decided later on to make this Islam distinct from basically Jewish stuff like the pilgrimage to Jerusalem and whatever.
That seems to be basically the point, and sure, that totally may have happened, we weren't there so I have no idea if it did really happen or not, but it is possible for sure that such a thing happened.
No I find the above proposition unacceptable. Per my understanding there is a huge difference between "not accepting Hadith as a religious authority" vs. declining the history of Islam altogether. It is very well possible that someone obtains a misinformation about the age of Ayesha at the time of her marriage or a misquote from the prophet that angels do not enter the room where there is a dog, or introducing a new "devil stoning" ritual during hujj pilgimage - BUT it is absolutely impossible to brainwash an entire community of believers (who already numbered in 1000+ at the time of the Prophet) to teach them a totally new history, or new daily rituals (5 time salaat facing Kabaa at Mecca), or changing the definition of "month of Ramadan" etc. So, I am not in doubt about the basic historical events during the lifetime of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) - his birth in Mecca in the seventh century, his family identity, his obtaining of Prophethood at middle age, hizrat, change of kibla, fight of Badar and Uhud, victory of Mecca and so on. Furthermore history tells us that right after the death of Prophet Muhammad his community got bitterly divided over who should be the next ?Khalifa?. This gave rise to different political groups and sub-groups. It would have been absolutely impossible to bring all these differing groups to an agreement over the Qibla had it not been a real legacy of the Prophet himself.
BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, runninglikezebras arguments are not based on historical observation, rather his arguments are based on a belief that ?Qibla? is so fundamental to our deen that Allah could have given only one Qibla for mankind. Rather I find this belief absolutely problematic. To Allah belongs the East and the West - He guides to the straight route whomever He wills. I would never imply restriction upon Allah to have been constrained by His commitment to an individual Prophet to assign a single point as Qibla for entire mankind. We need to have the ability to distinguish between items which are core to piety (items listed in 2177 for example) vs. rituals, symbols, dress codes and dietary practices which are only prescribed means to an end. Allah sent different messengers to different communities with the same fundamental message to test which one of us can be the best in our actions - this has been confirmed (2213) and reconfirmed (54 in Qur'an. The idea that there has always been only one community with only one hardcoded set of practices and rituals is against the core theme of the Qur'an. I do not care if one follows the Mecca or the Jerusalem, or the Rome or the Vrindavan as his Qibla ? but it is the over-ritualization, which turn people into blind sects, that I voice-out against.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
. The Search for Muhammad has Ended (Read 29363 times)
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603126.0Looks like even back then there were people saying what runninglikezebras is saying here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603126.msg287389#msg287389
So what was the conclusion of the Pazuzu article? Was Muhammed in Mecca and Medina like the mainstream academics say?
I saved the picture of the map, that was pretty cool!
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Peace runninglikezebras,
Please re read my posts AND ONE OF YOUR OWN POST because what you are asking has already been referenced in them. If you are not even reading my posts and YOUR OWN QUOTED VERSE closely then further discussion is futile (
Your post still doesn't explain how you can face a physical location from more than a few miles away due to curvature of the Earth. It is a scientific impossibility. You will be facing a portion of the sky tangential to the curvature of Earth and not the physical location. This is an empirically verifiable fact. You can physically face something only when the physical location is in the straight line of sight and not wind directions! When you are more than a few miles away from a physical location the straight line of sight is now a portion of the sky rather than the physical location. Depending on your location on Earth that direction could be off by 90 DEGREES and THOUSANDS OF MILES from the physical location. So now you are facing the sky in a direction that is not the direction of the physical location thereby violating your physical qibla direction!
Your post still doesn't explain how you will face a physical location from far away galaxies on the outer edge of the universe from where Earth is not even visible due to light from Earth still not having reached it. You should be able to set yourself towards qibla WHEREVER YOU MAY BE which includes anywhere in the universe.
You still haven't provided any quranic evidence that qibla and al-masjid al-haram are associated with salat. Salat is nowhere in the context of the qibla and al-masjid al-haram verses. Face a physical direction DOING WHAT?
You still haven't provided any quranic evidence to support your conjecture that AL-MASJID AL-HARAM is the same as AL-BAYT AL-HARAM!
You still haven't provided any quranic evidence that MASJID can be a BAYT! A single verse will suffice. None of what you referenced shows that MASJID can be a BAYT in quranic terminology.
Just because you can enter something doesn't mean it is a physical house according to al-quran itself. According to al-quran, people can enter DEEN, so does that make DEEN a physical house? According to al-quran people can visit SABEEL ALLAH and be devoted in it, so does that make SABEEL ALLAH a physical super highway or a physical house?
SABEEL ALLAH AND AL-MASJID AL-HARAM are mentioned right next to each other so if being able to visit them makes almasjid alharam a physical house then sabeel allah also has to be a physical house or a physical highway. On the other hand if sabeel allah is a mental/metaphorical path then almasjid alharam also has to be mental/metaphorical in that verse. So either both are physical or both are mental and because sabeel allah cannot be physical, both have to be mental concepts.
Al-quran clearly defines AL-MASJID AL-HARAM as THE TRUTH FROM YOUR LORD. A physical location CANNOT BE THE TRUTH FROM YOUR LORD. If it was then al-quran would have clearly stated where exactly the physical location is instead of keeping everyone in the dark about such an important matter.
Why would al-quran tell you that WHEREVER YOU TURN YOU WILL FIND THE PRESENCE OF ALLAH, and PIETY IS NOT TO TURN YOUR FACES TOWARDS EAST OR WEST, and then tell you to face a particular physical direction?
Since you are not even reading my posts completely or ignoring what I already mentioned, AND YOU ARE NOT EVEN READING YOUR OWN QUOTED VERSE CAREFULLY which mentions what you are asking, AND YOU ARE NOT answering the questions posted by me and providing the quranic evidence being requested from you about certain things then it is futile to carry any further discussion with you.
Instead you have resorted to ad hominem which I have ignored so far.
You can continue to face a physical direction like many others and continue to believe al-masjid al-haram is a bayt/physical house associated with Abraham but don't claim that it is based on al-quran.
Peace.
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Peace everyone,
WHAT IS "THE TRUTH FROM YOUR LORD" ACCORDING TO AL-QURAN?
4170 O people, a messenger has come to you with the truth from your Lord, so believe; that is better for you. And if you reject, then to God is what is in the heavens and the earth. And God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
Did the messenger come with a physical house/location or did the messenger come with the message?
6114 "Shall I seek other than allah as a judge when he has sent down to you the book fully detailed?" Those to whom we have given the book know it is sent down from your lord with the truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.
131 ALMR, these are the signs of the book. And what has been sent down to you from your lord is the truth; but most of the people do not believe.
Was a physical house/location sent down from your lord?
2852 Those to whom we had given the book before this, they will believe in it.
2853 And if it is recited to them, they say "We believe in it. It is the truth from our lord. Indeed, we had submitted before it."Clearly THE BOOK = THE TRUTH FROM YOUR LORD;
Combine this with AL-MASJID AL-HARAM = THE TRUTH FROM YOUR LORD,2149 And from wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards al-masjid al-haram; it is the truth from your Lord; and allah is not unaware of what you do.
and suddenly it is crystal clear what qibla/focal point is. YOU CAN SET YOURSELF TOWARDS OR FACE THE TRUTH FROM YOUR LORD/"THE BOOK"/"THE MESSAGE" WHEREVER YOU MAY BE.
How much clearer can al-quran be?
2150 And wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards the inviolable masjid. And wherever you may be you shall set yourselves towards it; that the people will have no room for debate with you, except those of them who are wicked. You shall not be concerned by them, but be concerned by me; so that I may complete my blessings upon you and that you may be guided.
Peace
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Peace everyone,
WHAT IS "THE TRUTH FROM YOUR LORD" ACCORDING TO AL-QURAN?
4170 O people, a messenger has come to you with the truth from your Lord, so believe; that is better for you. And if you reject, then to God is what is in the heavens and the earth. And God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
Did the messenger come with a physical house/location or did the messenger come with the message?
6114 "Shall I seek other than allah as a judge when he has sent down to you the book fully detailed?" Those to whom we have given the book know it is sent down from your lord with the truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.
131 ALMR, these are the signs of the book. And what has been sent down to you from your lord is the truth; but most of the people do not believe.
Was a physical house/location sent down from your lord?
2852 Those to whom we had given the book before this, they will believe in it.
2853 And if it is recited to them, they say "We believe in it. It is the truth from our lord. Indeed, we had submitted before it."Clearly THE BOOK = THE TRUTH FROM YOUR LORD;
Combine this with AL-MASJID AL-HARAM = THE TRUTH FROM YOUR LORD,2149 And from wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards al-masjid al-haram; it is the truth from your Lord; and allah is not unaware of what you do.
and suddenly it is crystal clear what qibla/focal point is. YOU CAN SET YOURSELF TOWARDS OR FACE THE TRUTH FROM YOUR LORD/"THE BOOK"/"THE MESSAGE" WHEREVER YOU MAY BE.
How much clearer can al-quran be?
2150 And wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards the inviolable masjid. And wherever you may be you shall set yourselves towards it; that the people will have no room for debate with you, except those of them who are wicked. You shall not be concerned by them, but be concerned by me; so that I may complete my blessings upon you and that you may be guided.
Peace
Salam truthseeker11
We are having a discussion in my family and friends about salat and other rituals. Qibla is the topic for tomorrow's session. Thank you very much for your post. I never thought about "the truth" the way you have explained it.
May God show us the straight path.
Regards -
Peace everyone,
WHAT IS "THE TRUTH FROM YOUR LORD" ACCORDING TO AL-QURAN?
4170 O people, a messenger has come to you with the truth from your Lord, so believe; that is better for you. And if you reject, then to God is what is in the heavens and the earth. And God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
Did the messenger come with a physical house/location or did the messenger come with the message?
6114 "Shall I seek other than allah as a judge when he has sent down to you the book fully detailed?" Those to whom we have given the book know it is sent down from your lord with the truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.
131 ALMR, these are the signs of the book. And what has been sent down to you from your lord is the truth; but most of the people do not believe.
Was a physical house/location sent down from your lord?
2852 Those to whom we had given the book before this, they will believe in it.
2853 And if it is recited to them, they say "We believe in it. It is the truth from our lord. Indeed, we had submitted before it."Clearly THE BOOK = THE TRUTH FROM YOUR LORD;
Combine this with AL-MASJID AL-HARAM = THE TRUTH FROM YOUR LORD,2149 And from wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards al-masjid al-haram; it is the truth from your Lord; and allah is not unaware of what you do.
and suddenly it is crystal clear what qibla/focal point is. YOU CAN SET YOURSELF TOWARDS OR FACE THE TRUTH FROM YOUR LORD/"THE BOOK"/"THE MESSAGE" WHEREVER YOU MAY BE.
How much clearer can al-quran be?
2150 And wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards the inviolable masjid. And wherever you may be you shall set yourselves towards it; that the people will have no room for debate with you, except those of them who are wicked. You shall not be concerned by them, but be concerned by me; so that I may complete my blessings upon you and that you may be guided.
Peace
Looks like I at least try to have all those interpretations covered simultaneously, not missing out on one.
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Looks like even back then there were people saying what runninglikezebras is saying here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603126.msg287389#msg287389
So what was the conclusion of the Pazuzu article? Was Muhammed in Mecca and Medina like the mainstream academics say?
I saved the picture of the map, that was pretty cool!
Look , as you said I don't really care whether Muhammad was in Mars or Jupiter or even in Mecca and Medina like the mainstream academics say , because he is dead and we are not witness of him and moreover this information is not necessary for our salvation . But Pazzuzu's several posts including this one makes us think and understand religious history of Muslims , Christians and Jews and how they are fabricated including hadiths. Pazuzu's reasoning based on quranic Ayats , historians and archeological evidence. You should read them all to grasp it , if you want to better argue with people like runninglikezebra.