Baccata and Haj
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"so turn YOUR FACE in the direction of masjid al haram"
Is this not in the direction of a physical structure, most likely a house, given one can enter it even destroy it?
Peace
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Sahih International O you who have believed, do not violate the rites of Allah or the sacred month or the sacrificial animals and garlanding or those coming to the Sacred House seeking bounty from their Lord and approval. But when you come out of i?ram, then hunt. And do not let the hatred of a people for having obstructed you from al-Masjid al-haram lead you to transgress. And cooperate in righteousness and piety, but do not cooperate in sin and aggression. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is severe in penalty.
Is this not a physical structure?
Peace
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Certainly has Allah showed to His Messenger the vision in truth. You will surely enter al-Masjid al-haram, if Allah wills, in safety, with your heads shaved and shortened, not fearing . He knew what you did not know and has arranged before that a conquest near .
Is this not a house one can enter?
I could give you many more examples.
Peace
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I'm gonna rest my case here. Like I said if you think a masjid excludes being a bayt then there is nothing I can help you with.
Peace
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If you think, truthseeker, that a masjid can not be a bayt well then all those pilgrims shouldn't even be making their hajj. They could just do so in their minds. The safety of those doing hajj would be irrelevant entirely. I don't know what reading you have of Quran but I face masjid al haram. Temple Mount. The same place will be the destination of my hajj. If you prefer to stay at home, turn your face towards tv instead of Temple Mount and take some LSD strips to travel to the metaphysical masjid al haram only existing in your hallucinations, then that is totally fine by me.
Peace
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But every little piece or bit you put in about Jwerusalem is because you follow the bible, not because you follow the Qur'an. There is no mention of any Jerusalem in the Qur'an which would have clinched any of your fantasies. So in fact Ibrahim in Jerusalem and all that is that fantasy.
Salaam
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Peace runninglikezebras,
1717 Sahih International , "If you do good, you do good for yourselves; and if you do evil, to yourselves." Then when the final promise came, to sadden your faces and to enter the temple in Jerusalem, as they entered it the first time, and to destroy what they had taken over with destruction.
Only in a physical building can one destroy and only a physical bayt allows entering that way.
Masjid is clearly a place here don't you think.
FIRSTLY, this verse does not say MASJID is BAYT.
SECONDLY, in quranic terminology, just entering something doesn't mean it is physical.
Per your logic then DEEN is also a physical building because people can enter it (1102) )
I'd say the majority of masjid occurrences are phsyical structures. The burden is upon you to prove it is not. You even refuse defining masjid.
That will be a logical fallacy of appeal to popularity.
You are the one saying MASJID is BAYT (whatever they mean) so burden of proof is on you not me )
If you say it is and I say it is not, then per rules of logic, burden of proof is on you.
Al-quran defines al-masjid al-haram for you.
AL-MASJID AL-HARAM = THE TRUTH FROM YOUR LORD.
Peace
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Peace runninglikezebras,
If you think, truthseeker, that a masjid can not be a bayt well then all those pilgrims shouldn't even be making their hajj. They could just do so in their minds.
They are being invited to a physical house (BAYT) and not a MASJID
Turning your face is allegorical for focus on it. Otherwise does allah have a face in 2115?
Context determines whether face is physical or allegorical.
Because almasjid alharam cannot be physical, face referring to it has to be allegorical.
Peace
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Peace runninglikezebras,
FIRSTLY, this verse does not say MASJID is BAYT.
SECONDLY, in quranic terminology, just entering something doesn't mean it is physical.
Per your logic then DEEN is also a physical building because people can enter it (1102)
That will be a logical fallacy of appeal to popularity.
You are the one saying MASJID is BAYT (whatever they mean) so burden of proof is on you not me
If you say it is and I say it is not, then per rules of logic, burden of proof is on you.
Al-quran defines al-masjid al-haram for you.
AL-MASJID AL-HARAM = THE TRUTH FROM YOUR LORD.
Peace
Terms associated with masjid al haram in quranic verses
- entering it
- destroying it
- travelling towards it during hajj
- conquering it
- making it safe
- facing towards it
Testing these criteria
TRUTH
- one can not enter it physically - FLAWED
- one can not destroy truths - FLAWED
- one does not take pilgrimage towards truths - FLAWED
- one can achieve truth but not conquer it - FLAWED
- one can not make a truth safe - FLAWED
- one can face a truth but not towards a truth - FLAWED
HOUSE/TEMPLE
- one can enter it physically - PASSED
- one can destroy it - PASSED
- one can travel to it be it pilgrimage or not - PASSED
- one can conquer a house - PASSED
- one can make a house safe - PASSED
- one can face a house - PASSED
Quod est demonstrandum
Peace
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Peace runninglikezebras,
Congratulations, you have just proved that DEEN is also a physical house )
Also SABEEL ALLAH would be a physical super highway because you can visit it )
You still haven't explained how you can face a physical location WHEREVER YOU MAY BE because of curvature of Earth or in a far away galaxy.
Al-quran is supposed to be for all times and all universe (al aalameen).
Peace
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Peace runninglikezebras,
Congratulations, you have just proved that DEEN is also a physical house )
Also SABEEL ALLAH would be a physical super highway because you can visit it )
Peace
That is your mistake not mine. A masjid is not always physical house. I'm not denying that. My point is it often is. But the verses referring to masjid al haram certainly are referring to one as demonstrated with the criteria above. If you have references to verses that contradicts my understanding of masjid al haram then show them.
You are literally distorting my words. I quoted specifically verses referring to masjid al haram only. Using those as examples to distill criteria from whether that is a house or not. It does not say anything about masjids that are not masjid al haram.
Show me a verse that renders my understanding of masjid al haram to impact the understanding of deen and sabeel allah. If you are honest.
Peace
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Peace runninglikezebras,
That is your mistake not mine. A masjid is not always physical house. I'm not denying that.
FINALLY PROGRESS yay
Baby steps but still in right direction )
If you have references to verses that contradicts my understanding of masjid al haram then show them.
I have, multiple times. Please re read my posts )
Peace
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FINALLY PROGRESS yay
Baby steps but still in right direction
I have, multiple times.
Peace
The progress is on your side only. I never claimed all occurrences of masjid in Quran to mean temple. My only ever claim was masjid al haram is a temple/house. The progress being made is minimal in the sense that you are finally starting to see what I'm saying and remove what I have not said.
Your patronizing tone makes me want to punch you in the face though. It doesn't suit you either. You are the one failing to understand basic stuff (like masjid al haram is not all masjids)
Peace
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Please quote the verse including masjid al haram and deen making it contradict. If you are honest.
Quote the verse including masjid al haram and sabeel allah rendering it to contradiction. If you are honest.
If have no intention scrolling through all your posts. I find you very inefficient to converse with.
Peace
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I will give truthseeker some time to still prove he was being honest. If he fails to meet the challenge I posted I can only conclude he's been trying to be dishonest and force his argument.
In that case I will drag him personally in front of Freedomstands High Court making sure the criminal gets his verdict for putting these words into my mouth
Congratulations, you have just proved that DEEN is also a physical house )
Also SABEEL ALLAH would be a physical super highway because you can visit it )
I never claimed any such thing. It's up to truthseeker to prove my understanding of masjid al haram to be a physical structure renders verses he will quote here, render Deen being a house and sabeel allah being a super highway. Truthseeker will provide evidence of this, using the quotation of quranic verses that use the exact words masjid al haram, in contrast to any other occurence of masjid seperate from "al haram".
I will measure his honesty from his compliance to this request.
Peace runninglikezebras,
Quote from runninglikezebras on Today at 111040 AM
The masjid al haram is a house on the spot designated to Abraham. Where Abraham's house started.Reply from truthseeker
This is your conjecture that MASJID is BAYT.Here one can see what truthseeker does. I say masjid al haram is a house on the spot designated to Abraham. In reaction he just distorts what I said, making me say all masjid are bayt while I never said such a thing.
Peace
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You still haven't explained how you can face a physical location WHEREVER YOU MAY BE because of curvature of Earth or in a far away galaxy.
Peace
The truth of this matter is, the further you are removed from earth, the easier it will be to face. As earth becomes more remote, the range allowing Jerusalem and earth to fall into that parameter is supereasy. It's as difficult as facing the earth from space. Looking in the direction of earth will be suffiicient as an extra-terrestial qibla. On earth though, your qibla is far more precise.
NASA has always achieved facing earth in their missions. It's even possible to turn a vessel at the dark side of the moon retrograde so it faces earth.
When one looks from space to earth one is facing the qibla. The place of return. The site of Abraham. No one will argue you didn't exactly look at Jerusalem when you are removed from it on a galactic scale. If you are lightyears away, one could say facing the direction of earths solar system/galaxy respectively would be sufficient.
Concerning the direction involving curvature. I already answered this. If not here it is again, qibla is a direction not different from wind directions. Directions in the time of Qurans revelation didn't care about earths curvature at all but were synonymous to how winds travel the earth. It's more a question of north east south west than anything. It's not a question about 3D space. For me to face the Levant does not require me to do much maths. Although I could face it way more accurately than the ancients, it's quite irrelevant what the precision is. I could still use only a compass eg and face the right qibla.
The root word qeble in aramaic has precursors of its usage for wind directions before Quran even used it.
Peace
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Topic The Forgotten "Cubes" of Yemen. (Read 8838 times)
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603432.0Very cool! So I guess "Cubes" is something.
Now to replace the word Kaba in the Qur'an with the word "Retribution" and see what comes up (it seems the mainstream academics have not chosen this meaning for some reason which at least might appear clear to them)
597
"God has laid down that the Ka'Bah aka RETRIBUTION, the Inviolable Temple, shall be a symbol for all mankind; and the sacred month and the garlanded offerings meant to make you aware that God is aware of all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth, and that God has full knowledge of everything."595
O you who have attained to faith! Kill no game while you are in the state of pilgrimage. And whoever of you kills it intentionally, amends in cattle equivalent to what he has killed - with two persons of probity giving their judgment thereon- to be brought as an offering to the Ka`bah aka RETRIBUTION; or else he may atone for his sin by feeding the needy, or by the equivalent thereof in fasting in order that. he taste the full gravity of his deed, God shall have effaced the past. But whoever does it again, God will inflict His retribution on him for God is almighty, an avenger of evil.Well the current Kabah is literally these days a "symbol for all mankind" just about everyone has seen it and heard of it these days and they even make reference to it in common language by saying "This is the Mecca of" and other stuff like that.
Funny that the word "retribution" occurs in there too.
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Outside the mainstream view. There is the word kaab in hebrew. In my opinion closely related to the Kaba word in Quran. Yes I'm well aware this can be confused with modern Mecca today.
The first one refers to a practice that is also very commonly know as a pain from circumcision
"Three days later, while all of them were still in pain (Kaab), two of Jacob's sons, Simeon and Levi, Dinah's brothers, took their swords and attacked the unsuspecting city, killing every male."
The other one is referring to some sort of mental pain
"There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death. 13Even in laughter the heart may be in pain (kaab), And the end of joy may be grief. 14T he backslider in heart will have his fill of his own ways, But a good man will be satisfied with his.?"
Many others refer to physical pain in all its forms.
In this one it used as a pain to Israel
??No longer will the people of Israel have malicious neighbors who are painful (kaab) briers and sharp thorns. Then they will know that I am the Sovereign Lord."
This last one remarkably seems to talk about ruining the land with stones (making it a pain in a sort of way) even mentioning springs (where did we hear this before?)
"You will overthrow every fortified city and every major town. You will cut down every good tree, stop up all the springs, and ruin every good field with stones (kaab)."
So as you can see there are more symbols in the world still existing that are well established outside mecca
The grief of the Jews over the destruction of the Temple is still a universal symbol, you can find them every day mourning at what they believe is a wall of that Temple (which of course it isn't). The Jewish tradition of circumcision is well established both in Jewish and Muslim tradition.
It's funny to me the pain in format of stones has a very negative connotation here a stone is something ruining a good field and hindering it from being cultivated. Just saying there is a hebrew example of stone Kaba. They are a p.i.t.a. to farmers.
It may very well refer to a rock, but a rock that has to be associated with a sort of grief. The rock of the dome is built on top of a rock that is associated with the binding of Isaac. A universally known symbol causing Abraham much grief and testing his faith to the limits. Abraham chose this place to make his sacrifice to God. And this is perfectly in harmony with the context of offering a killed animal in Quran. If not an explicit reference to it.
To me the binding of Isaac is the symbol referred to and the place of Abrahams grief. See also the convenant of circumcision https//www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+17
Peace
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How does the "Ka ab" word make sense with what I posted of the uses of "Ka'Bah" in the Qur'an?
I replaced it with Retribution. It can be replaced with PAIN too. How does it make sense in those sentences though?
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597
"God has laid down that the Ka'Bah aka GRIEF, the Inviolable Temple, shall be a symbol for all mankind; and the sacred month and the garlanded offerings meant to make you aware that God is aware of all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth, and that God has full knowledge of everything."595
O you who have attained to faith! Kill no game while you are in the state of pilgrimage. And whoever of you kills it intentionally, amends in cattle equivalent to what he has killed - with two persons of probity giving their judgment thereon- to be brought as an offering reaching the GRIEF; or else he may atone for his sin by feeding the needy, or by the equivalent thereof in fasting in order that. he taste the full gravity of his deed, God shall have effaced the past. But whoever does it again, God will inflict His retribution on him for God is almighty, an avenger of evil.In 597 Grief as in convenant/grief of circumcision
In 595 Literally as in 'reaching the measure of grief' or symbolically as 'reaching the rock of grief' aka "the rock where Abraham wanted to sacrifice Isaac". The only place in jewish tradition authorized by God allowing animal sacrifice in his name.Both are closely related btw. The convenant of circumcision was biblically first given to Abraham as a condition to establish his progeny.
The understanding of kaab changes by implication. Properly it means pain, by implication it means grief, figuratively it means spoilt/ruined.
My understanding of 595 will only make sense to you if you understand violating the convenant of Ihram will result in grieving yourself. Which implies a place or attitude of attonement.
I have a different understanding about causing harm. To me harming others is damaging yourself in the first place. More than anything.This also applies to 597 in which Abraham was willing to damage his own progeny in the name of God.
It may seem I'm miles away from the mainstream view. But I'm not. I only identify the kaab as the place the binding of isaac and referring to Abrahamic traditions. My only difference with mainstream is that
- I disagree Abraham built the Kaab. The Kaab was always there. Just not associated with any grief yet before the binding of Isaac.
- I disagree this Kaab is in Mecca. Even muslims agree that rock has this symbolism of binding of isaac. See dome of the rock.
- What grief is associated with the Black Stone in Mecca?
The Islamic version differs from the Bible. In Islamic sources, when Abraham tells his son about the vision, his son accepted to be sacrificed for fulfillment of God's command, and no binding to the altar occurred.
The Quran states that when Abraham asked for a righteous son, God granted him a son possessing forbearance. The son is not however named directly in the Quran. When the son was able to walk and work with him, Abraham saw a vision about sacrificing his son. When he told his son about it, his son agreed to fulfill the command of God in the vision. When they both had submitted their will to God and were ready for the sacrifice, God told Abraham he had fulfilled the vision, and provided him with a ram to sacrifice instead. God promised to reward Abraham. The next two verses state God also granted Abraham the righteous son Isaac, and promised more rewards.
Muslim scholars have endorsed the belief that it was the first-born son Ismail, not Isaac, who was asked to be sacrificed in the vision, and that the second son Isaac was born later as one of the rewards for Abraham's fulfillment of his vision.
Among early Muslim scholars, however, there was a dispute over the identity of the son. The argument of those early scholars who believed it was Isaac rather than Ishmael (notably Ibn utayba, and al-abarī was that "God's perfecting his mercy on Abraham and Isaac" referred to his making Abraham his friend, and to his rescuing Isaac. On the contrary, the other parties held that the promise to Sarah was of a son, Isaac, and a grandson, Jacob, excluded the possibility of a premature death of Isaac.
Muslims consider that visions experienced by prophets are revelations from God, and as such it was a divine order to Abraham. The entire episode of the sacrifice is regarded as a trial of God for Abraham and his son, and both are seen as having passed the test by submitting to God and showing their awareness that God is the Owner and Giver of all that we have and cherish, including life and offspring. The submission of Abraham and his son is celebrated and commemorated by Muslims on the days of Eid al-Adha. During the festival, those who can afford and the ones in the pilgrimage sacrifice a ram, cow, sheep or a camel. Part of the sacrifice meat is eaten by the household and remaining is distributed to the neighbors and the needy. The festival marks the end of the Hajj pilgrimage to Mecca.
The well-known site of Marwah (Arabic ة may be identified with the biblical Moriah (Hebrew ה in Gn 222. Marwah being the mount just outside the perimeter of the Kaaba. However, it should be noted that the Hebrew Bible identifies the Temple Mount in Jerusalem as Mount Moriah, as early as the First Temple period in the book of Second Chronicles chapter 3 sBible (American Standard)/2 Chronicles#3, around 1,700 years predating Islam's account.
Peace