Baccata and Haj
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Thank you! So why isn't the circumcision mentioned anywhere in the Qur'an in a direct fashion? Perhaps another one of those pesky "tests"!
Nowhere in the whole Qur'an is this practice mentioned in a clear fashion as given by God to Abraham or anything, but it seems that it might be a rather big deal and worth mentioning, when it mentioned so many other things from the Bible.
Till it "reaches the Grief" so lots of talk of circumcision in relation to the pilgrimage, huh, interesting!
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Till it "reaches the Grief" so lots of talk of circumcision in relation to the pilgrimage, huh, interesting!
Never claimed any such thing.
597 lists a number of convenants, the convenant of circumcision, masjid al haram, hajj, offerings as symbols for mankind. They are not related other than being clear convenants.
595 refers to either a measure of grief (which is weak imho) or the place of abrahams grief. which is a place allowed for animal sacrifice.
Yes I agree it's cryptic and in my understanding a test conforming recognizing it like your sons. Although Quran never mentions circumcision a majority of muslim males are circumsized.
Peace
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Never claimed any such thing.
You are misunderstanding. There is no mentioning of circumcision in that verse. I gave you the translation of kaab in that verse. Being 'measure of grief' or 'place of grief'.
I edited my post maybe you missed a part of it.
Peace
Oops, yeah sorry about that, I hadn't seen the edited version which is more clear perhaps. Why does it mention grief two times in different contexts or meanings in relation to pilgrimage or a place of pilgrimage?
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Salamun alaikum.
Sorry for responding a bit late on this.
So according to Arman Ibrahim, Ishmael, and the whole progeny were christians and jews.
! ? ! This is not true, I never said this. Either you misunderstood or I failed to convey my understanding clearly.
Who is a Jew and who is a Christian? How do you define these terms? If following Sabbath or circumcision makes a person Jew or baptism makes a person Christian - then I have no objection. But the Quranic Yahud and Nasara are not only characterized by merely differences of practice - these are references to certain sects which believed their path was the only correct path. It is that dogmatic attitude that turns a group into a deviated sect.
2113 And the yahud said, ?The nasara are not (based) on anything? whereas the nasara said ?The yahud are not (based) on anything? while they pursue the book. That?s how said those who don?t know - similar statements. So Allah will judge between them (on the) day of rising concerning what in it they happened to be differing.
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
Those who believe there can be only one "divinely appointed" Qibla for the entire mankind, there can be only one "divinely appointed" prayer method for the entire mankind, there can be only one "divinely appointed" timing and method of fasting for the entire mankind, there can be only one "divinely appointed" destination for pilgrimage for the entire mankind - they are the ones who sow the seeds of superiority complex in their soul which ultimately lead them to claim monopoly over God and make them sectarian. Faith, righteousness, justice and sincerity are fundamental - these constitute our deen (resolution). Qibla, rituals, holy sites and days are tools and techniques which lead us towards the same goal in maltitude of paths.
Starting from Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Moses, Jesus to toady's righteous rabbis, priests and musallis - who do not claim exclusive ownership of the "divinely appointed right practices" - I believe they all, in spite of their apparent difference of physical Qibla or differences in ritual practices are "muslimeen". I consider them all my brothers of resolution.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
@FS I edited my post pls check it
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Salamun alaikum.
Sorry for responding a bit late on this.
! ? ! This is not true, I never said this. Either you misunderstood or I failed to convey my understanding clearly.
Who is a Jew and who is a Christian? How do you define these terms? If following Sabbath or circumcision makes a person Jew or baptism makes a person Christian - then I have no objection. But the Quranic Yahud and Nasara are not only characterized by merely differences of practice - these are references to certain sects which believed their path was the only correct path. It is that dogmatic attitude that turns a group into a deviated sect.
Those who believe there can be only one "divinely appointed" Qibla, there can be only one "divinely appointed" prayer method, there can be only one "divinely appointed" timing and method of fasting, there can be only one "divinely appointed" destination for pilgrimage - they are the ones who sow the seeds of superiority complex in their soul which ultimately lead them to claim monopoly over God and make them sectarian. Faith, righteousness, justice and sincerity are fundamental - these constitute our deen (resolution). Qibla, rituals, holy sites and days are tools and techniques which lead us towards the same goal in maltitude of paths.
Starting from Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Moses, Jesus to toady's righteous rabbis, priests and musallis - who do not claim exclusive ownership of the right path - I believe they all, in spite of their apparent difference of physical Qibla or differences in ritual practices are "muslimeen". I consider them all my brothers of resolution.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
ArmanThis demonstrates my point that those who reject the qibla (Jerusalem) also reject the Abrahamic progeny. In my understanding it is a muslim progeny. Not a christian or jewish one.
Lo! As for those who sunder their religion and become schismatics, no concern at all hast thou with them. Their case will go to Allah, Who then will tell them what they used to do.
Knowing this verse how can anyone be promoting a divide in religion and at the same time call themselves muslim? If you think that verse only applies to Islamic sectarianism, you should think twice before Allah will deal with your case.
Peace
Does a hypothetical situation in which all muslims acting wrongly render entire Islam wrong? No it doesn't. Similarly does the wrong behaviour of christians and jews make Abrahams tradition entirely wrong? No, it does not. Quran makes clear which of the convenants still apply and which ones were misunderstood. There is only one faith there are countless of misunderstandings about that one faith.
I'm not saying anyone should act like the Christians or Jews. Nor do I tell anyone to be muslim. All I'm saying is Abraham was given a clear set of rules reminded of in Quran. Many of those have been corrupted by hadith concepts making it an exclusively Arab faith with an exclusive Arabic qibla. Visit masjid al haram in Mecca being a christian and trust me you will get arrested. I will keep rebelling against such a qibla. Never will I accept it. It is not a safe place for pilgrims whatsoever.
Peace
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Even a sectarian muslim fully immersed in hadith will correspond in many ways with the contract made between God and Abraham. The most obvious difference is the location of qibla/masjid al haram translating itself in a different hajj destination and prayer direction. A location I dispute with rational, quranic and biblical arguments. I'm not using this thesis to make anyone feel they are in the wrong or that I consider them evil. By all means, I don't.
Peace
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Oops, yeah sorry about that, I hadn't seen the edited version which is more clear perhaps. Why does it mention grief two times in different contexts or meanings in relation to pilgrimage or a place of pilgrimage?
The one verse is referring to a grief one inflicts on himself. The other is a grief not personal to them individually but to the abrahamic progeny. The act of sacrificing an animal at the place of Isaacs binding is drenched with symbolism I couldn't possibly explain in this thread. You should ask some rabbi to explain that to you, its quite interesting if you aren't familiar with it. If I remember correctly the binding of isaac was a punishment from God to Abraham (for the mistreatment of Ishmael). This puts the offender of killing animals during Irham on the same bench that was used to punish Abraham. There are many interpretations of it and I'm not saying this version is the only one nor the true one.
Peace
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The one verse is referring to a grief one inflicts on himself. The other is a grief not personal to them individually but to the abrahamic progeny. The act of sacrificing an animal at the place of Isaacs binding is drenched with symbolism I couldn't possibly explain in this thread. You should ask some rabbi to explain that to you, its quite interesting if you aren't familiar with it.
Peace
He was bound at Jerusalem?
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I just hope you are kidding lol. I'm sorry, yes this is situated in Jerusalem even by islamic accounts
As posted earlier...
The Islamic version differs from the Bible. In Islamic sources, when Abraham tells his son about the vision, his son accepted to be sacrificed for fulfillment of God's command, and no binding to the altar occurred.
The Quran states that when Abraham asked for a righteous son, God granted him a son possessing forbearance. The son is not however named directly in the Quran. When the son was able to walk and work with him, Abraham saw a vision about sacrificing his son. When he told his son about it, his son agreed to fulfill the command of God in the vision. When they both had submitted their will to God and were ready for the sacrifice, God told Abraham he had fulfilled the vision, and provided him with a ram to sacrifice instead. God promised to reward Abraham. The next two verses state God also granted Abraham the righteous son Isaac, and promised more rewards.
Muslim scholars have endorsed the belief that it was the first-born son Ismail, not Isaac, who was asked to be sacrificed in the vision, and that the second son Isaac was born later as one of the rewards for Abraham's fulfillment of his vision.
Among early Muslim scholars, however, there was a dispute over the identity of the son. The argument of those early scholars who believed it was Isaac rather than Ishmael (notably Ibn utayba, and al-abarī was that "God's perfecting his mercy on Abraham and Isaac" referred to his making Abraham his friend, and to his rescuing Isaac. On the contrary, the other parties held that the promise to Sarah was of a son, Isaac, and a grandson, Jacob, excluded the possibility of a premature death of Isaac.
Muslims consider that visions experienced by prophets are revelations from God, and as such it was a divine order to Abraham. The entire episode of the sacrifice is regarded as a trial of God for Abraham and his son, and both are seen as having passed the test by submitting to God and showing their awareness that God is the Owner and Giver of all that we have and cherish, including life and offspring. The submission of Abraham and his son is celebrated and commemorated by Muslims on the days of Eid al-Adha. During the festival, those who can afford and the ones in the pilgrimage sacrifice a ram, cow, sheep or a camel. Part of the sacrifice meat is eaten by the household and remaining is distributed to the neighbors and the needy. The festival marks the end of the Hajj pilgrimage to Mecca.
The well-known site of Marwah (Arabic ة may be identified with the biblical Moriah (Hebrew ה in Gn 222. Marwah being the mount just outside the perimeter of the Kaaba. However, it should be noted that the Hebrew Bible identifies the Temple Mount in Jerusalem as Mount Moriah, as early as the First Temple period in the book of Second Chronicles chapter 3 sBible (American Standard)/2 Chronicles#3, around 1,700 years predating Islam's account.
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I just hope you are kidding lol
lol but it is worth discussing his place of binding maybe, for everyone, and if it has any connection with pilgrimage, I understand if it doesn't though.
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I identify Marwa as mount Moriah.
Peace
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Genesis 2214 states that the event occurred at "the mount of the LORD". 2 Chronicles 31; Psalm 243; Isaiah 23 & 3029; and Zechariah 83, identify the location of this event as the hill on which Solomon was said to later build the Temple, now believed to be the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.
Well yes there is a connection. It's all the same place. The Kaab is a place where masjid al haram used to be built over. The marwa landmark is mt moriah known for its association with pilgrimage. By the majority mount Moriah is associated with Temple Mount.
Peace
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Religious views
In the book of Chronicles it is reported that the location of Araunah's threshing floor is "in mount Moriah" and that the Temple of Solomon was built over Araunah's threshing floor. This has led to the classical rabbinical supposition that this is at the peak of Moriah.There is debate as to whether the two references (Genesis 222 and Chronicles 31) are correctly translated as the same word. For example, in the LXX, these verses are translated as
Genesis 222 "And he said, Take thy son, the beloved one, whom thou hast loved?Isaac, and go into the high land, and offer him there for a whole-burnt-offering on one of the mountains which I will tell thee of"
2 Chronicles 31 "And Solomon began to build the house of the Lord in Jerusalem in the mount of Amoria, where the Lord appeared to his father David, in the place which David had prepared in the threshing-floor of Orna the Jebusite."
Some interpretations of a biblical passage concerning Melchizedek would indicate Jerusalem was already a city with a priest at the time of Abraham, and thus is unlikely to have been founded after this, at the site of a sacrifice made by Abraham in the wilderness. However the view that Salem refers to Jerusalem (in David's time, Jebus) and not peace (shalome, shelomo) is of heavy debate between many sects of Jews and Christians.In consequence of these traditions, Classical Rabbinical Literature theorised that the name was a (linguistically corrupted) reference to the Temple, suggesting translations like the teaching-place (referring to the Sanhedrin that met there), the place of fear (referring to the supposed fear that non-Israelites would have at the Temple), the place of myrrh (referring to the spices burnt as incense). Targum Pseudo-Jonathan interprets the name as land of worship, while the Samaritan Targum regards it as being land of vision.
Scholarly views
Most modern biblical scholars, however, regard the name as a reference to the Amorites, the initial a via aphesis; the name is thus interpreted as meaning land of the Amorites. This also agrees with the biblical text as it appears in the Syriac Peshitta ? where the near-sacrifice occurs at the land of the Amorites, and in the Septuagint, where, for example, 2 Chronicles 31 refers to the location as ? Amri. This would give it the same etymological root as Hamor, a person's name in the narrative at Genesis 34 which concerns Shechem. Some scholars also identify it with Moreh, the location near Shechem at which Abraham built an altar, according to Genesis 126. Hence a number of scholars believe that Moriah refers to a hill near Shechem, supporting the Samaritan belief that the near-sacrifice of Isaac occurred on Mount Gerizim ? a location near Shechem.Correlation Isaac-Jesus
Some scholars reference the conversation Jesus had with the Samaritan woman at the well, where He stated that the Samaritans were inaccurate in their knowledge of the worship of God (John 421?24). Acknowledging the intended similarity between the sacrifice of Isaac and the crucifixion of Jesus, they make the connection that Moriah would be the same location where Jews made sacrifices at the Temple of Solomon. Isaac carrying the wood for the sacrificial fire as Jesus carried the cross; the reference in Hebrews 1117?19 to Abraham believing God could raise Isaac from the dead; Isaac being Abraham's "only" son and Jesus being God's only begotten Son; all make the correlation between the two events point to Moriah being the Temple site. -
Its like going from the Hadith of the Muslims to the Hadith of the Jews or something. Then, atheists who are further along that path sometimes, go to the stories of more ancient civilizations and connect them to those of the Jews and Bible as well, saying that even those were plagiarized.
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Its like going from the Hadith of the Muslims to the Hadith of the Jews or something. Then, atheists who are further along that path sometimes, go to the stories of more ancient civilizations and connect them to those of the Jews and Bible as well, saying that even those were plagiarized.
What hadith am I using to identify Mount Moriah as Marwa?
Peace
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I'm obliged to give older scripture a bigger weight when trying to identify Abrahamic landmarks.
Considering Marwa the Jewish account is by all references 1,700 years predating Islam's account.
2 Chronicles 31 "Then Solomon began to build the house of the LORD at Jerusalem in mount Moriah, where appeared unto David his father; for which provision had been made in the Place of David, in the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite."
But yeah there are many hadith concerning the binding of Isaac. But I have never heared about pre-Judaic ones. Without Quran it would be impossible to make sense of which ones could hold any truth. I try not to resort to hadith but compare the quranic account to the biblical one and there is too much overlap to be coincidental imho.
Peace
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The ka3ba must be then that famous and known cube that was in Jerusalem. Not inYemen, where there are many of those, but in Jerusalem in Palestine, because everything must needs revolve around Jerusalem, which is not mentionned nor described in the Qur'an, book, it is worth remembering, that came down to straighten things out, weed the many corruptions and whims pushed into the religions prreviously.
But the Qur'an was wrong, it did not come to end the confusion, but rather to become itself confused. Do we understand that now?
Jerusalem is sacred, the Qur'an is not.
Salaam
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What hadith am I using to identify Mount Moriah as Marwa?
Peace
No, I meant that it is like going from using Hadith of Muslims to Hadith of Jews. I didn't say you are using a Hadith of Muslims, I am saying you seem to be using references to Jewish writings that identify this or that.
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The ka3ba must be then that famous and known cube that was in Jerusalem. Not inYemen, where there are many of those, but in Jerusalem in Palestine, because everything must needs revolve around Jerusalem, which is not mentionned nor described in the Qur'an, book, it is worth remembering, that came down to straighten things out, weed the many corruptions and whims pushed into the religions prreviously.
But the Qur'an was wrong, it did not come to end the confusion, but rather to become itself confused. Do we understand that now?
Jerusalem is sacred, the Qur'an is not.
Salaam
Well mount marwa/moriah is simply not in Yemen. It's time you face that fact.
Jerusalem has a lot of symbolical significance and it is the only sacred place on this earth. Qurans message is the sacred book/message I get that information from.
Peace huruf