Baccata and Haj
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Why would you use an example of a ancient church outside the Hijaz region entirely when this debate is about the Hijaz region? What was in Jubail seems totally irrelevant. I've seen your explanation you say "I understand that it is on the far end there" => that is an understatement it is not even near Hijaz whatsoever. So please if you aren't just trying to waste my time give me a solid example of ancient christianity inside Hijaz.
Peace
Noo, I didn't mean "far end of the Hijaz", sorry for your misunderstanding. I meant I know that it is not near the Hijaz, I am saying that the mainstream view of Academics is that Christians existed all across the coasts, so it is no surprise to anyone to say Christians were present in the Hijaz, especially when they consider the place of revelation and Muhammed to be Mecca and Medina and Christians and Jews are mentioned as being in direct contact and having a presence there.
I've said that repeatedly now, so it appears you are not reading what I am writing or something.
I am not saying "it is true they were there" I am saying what the mainstream academics believe, not if they are right or not.
As for your time though, it is likely all wasted.
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Noo, I didn't mean "far end of the Hijaz", sorry for your misunderstanding. I meant I know that it is not near the Hijaz, I am saying that the mainstream view of Academics is that Christians existed all across the coasts, so it is no surprise to anyone to say Christians were present in the Hijaz, especially when they consider the place of revelation and Muhammed to be Mecca and Medina and Christians and Jews are mentioned as being in direct contact and having a presence there.
I've said that repeatedly now, so it appears you are not reading what I am writing or something.
I am not saying "it is true they were there" I am saying what the mainstream academics believe, not if they are right or not.
As for your time though, it is likely all wasted.
Well that kind of logic to me is conjecture. I'll change my mind once I see the finding of the fundaments of a christian building inside that region.
Peace
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You could say they are a minority. But academics like Crone are European heavyweights in their category though and giving birth to a whole generation of western scholars that raise very relevant questions that have never been asked before.
Peace
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I am reading you but you are not making much sense so far. You seem unwilling to address a specific question with an exact answer. Do you expect me to believe there were christians in Hijaz just because in Jubail there were too? What kind of logic is that?
Peace
Not at all. That wasn't the point, I was just showing you Jubail as an extra curiosity because I found it interesting, it was not trying to prove to you that it was in the Hijaz or anything like that. Sorry it caused such a freak out for you, it was not intended to do that, it is just that Christians were believed to be all across the coasts of the whole region, from Ethiopia to the Persian Gulf, they were also in India, and believed to be very many in the Hijaz as well which is the green highlighted region I showed you.
The reason it is easy to know that the mainstream academic view is that there were Christians and Jews in the Hijaz is that they believe Muhammed was in Mecca and Medina and dealing with Christians and Jews directly, and they are aware of the presence of Jews in Southern Arabia and Christians presence having been there and around there even before Islam.
The mainstream academic view is also the belief that there was trade arriving in Mecca and Medina, that is not considered a "myth" to them, even if it is to you or me, I am just stating what they believe and say in the mainstream academic view of today. Someday the minority view may become the majority view, but right now it is a minority view to say there were no Christians or Jews in the Hijaz reason, that is not the mainstream academic view. Please read carefully what I am saying. Sorry if it "doesn't make sense".
There was trade in Africa too. If someone says "There was no trade on the Eastern Coast of Africa and that is the mainstream academic view" they are simply not correct about the mainstream academic view. Don't get confused by that example, I know Africa is not "Hijaz". Ok?
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Though I'm interested Freedomstands. How do you see things on a personal level?
What is your qibla?
Where is your masjid al-haram?
Peace
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Not at all. That wasn't the point, I was just showing you Jubail as an extra curiosity because I found it interesting, it was not trying to prove to you that it was in the Hijaz or anything like that. Sorry it caused such a freak out for you, it was not intended to do that, it is just that Christians were believed to be all across the coasts of the whole region, from Ethiopia to the Persian Gulf, they were also in India, and believed to be very many in the Hijaz as well which is the green highlighted region I showed you.
The reason it is easy to know that the mainstream academic view is that there were Christians and Jews in the Hijaz is that they believe Muhammed was in Mecca and Medina and dealing with Christians and Jews directly, and they are aware of the presence of Jews in Southern Arabia and Christians presence having been there and around there even before Islam.
The mainstream academic view is also the belief that there was trade arriving in Mecca and Medina, that is not considered a "myth" to them, even if it is to you or me, I am just stating what they believe and say in the mainstream academic view of today. Someday the minority view may become the majority view, but right now it is a minority view to say there were no Christians or Jews in the Hijaz reason, that is not the mainstream academic view. Please read carefully what I am saying. Sorry if it "doesn't make sense".
There was trade in Africa too. If someone says "There was no trade on the Eastern Coast of Africa and that is the mainstream academic view" they are simply not correct about the mainstream academic view. Don't get confused by that example, I know Africa is not "Hijaz". Ok?
Well I'm aware of the mainstream view. I think it is incorrect and not addressing very relevant questions. Most of it if you dig a bit is conjecture, based on logic as you were applying. To any scientific standard that is very poor argumentation.
Let's look at the real evidence we have. Which is very scarce the abraha expedition does not mention mecca. None of the surrounding powers, of which many kept administrative records, mention mecca. There is simply no trace of it. The earliest reference mainstreamers use is even very weak if not totally absurd. The hard evidence I see is if Mecca existed it was very unimportant to pretty much everyone in that time. As a trade node it has no purpose and has a very bad geolocation compared to historically documented trade nodes near it.
Peace
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You could say they are a minority. But academics like Crone are European heavyweights in their category though and giving birth to a whole generation of western scholars that raise very relevant questions that have never been asked before.
Peace
A great deal of academics (the majority) don't agree with them and also criticize them. Luxembourg is even more criticized probably since he is more recent too.
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Syro-Aramaic_Reading_of_the_Koran#Academic_objections
"Patricia Crone, professor of Islamic history at the Institute for Advanced Study, Princeton, refers to Luxenberg's work as "open to so many scholarly objections" and "notably amateurism"."
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagarism
"Although the central hypotheses behind Hagarism have been generally rejected, even by the authors themselves"
"Michael G. Morony remarked that "Despite a useful bibliography, this is a thin piece of Kulturgeschichte full of glib generalizations, facile assumptions, and tiresome jargon. More argument than evidence, it suffers all the problems of intellectual history, including reification and logical traps.""
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A great deal of academics (the majority) don't agree with them and also criticize them. Luxembourg is even more criticized probably since he is more recent too.
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Syro-Aramaic_Reading_of_the_Koran#Academic_objections
"Patricia Crone, professor of Islamic history at the Institute for Advanced Study, Princeton, refers to Luxenberg's work as "open to so many scholarly objections" and "notably amateurism"."
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagarism
"Although the central hypotheses behind Hagarism have been generally rejected, even by the authors themselves"
Luxenberg is pretty much blurred by his disliking of Quran much like William Muir. Crone however I respect very much. Her thesis about Hagarism may be flawed but it still contains very relevant questions. Not sure if you read it. If you have I think we wouldn't be having this exchange of thoughts.
Peace
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Well I'm aware of the mainstream view. I think it is incorrect and not addressing very relevant questions. Most of it if you dig a bit is conjecture, based on logic as you were applying. To any scientific standard that is very poor argumentation.
Let's look at the real evidence we have. Which is very scarce the abraha expedition does not mention mecca. None of the surrounding powers, of which many kept administrative records, mention mecca. There is simply no trace of it. The earliest reference mainstreamers use is even very weak if not totally absurd. The hard evidence I see is if Mecca existed it was very unimportant to pretty much everyone in that time. As a trade node it has no purpose and has a very bad geolocation compared to historically documented trade nodes near it.
Peace
Fine by me, as long as you understand what I was saying was "this is the mainstream view" and not "this is my view", it was a similar confusion occurring with that homosexual thing earlier. In my view, I have no knowledge of the existence of Muhammed or Christians or Jews in Hijaz or at any time in history etc because I was not there and it is generally meaningless to me, only how the Qur'an can be used on those who believe in it is important to me and how I can use it too. Weapons, tools, not "this is how it was" or anything, not even "this is what 19 definitely means". It is irrelevant to me, only that "good idea, we can say that and we can say other things" and use it in a variety of ways, just like a knife can be versatile or a rope.
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Still interested to know what your qibla is and how you understand masjid al haram? Or do you just pretend those words aren't there? What is your place of return?
Peace
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Fine by me, as long as you understand what I was saying was "this is the mainstream view" and not "this is my view", it was a similar confusion occurring with that homosexual thing earlier. In my view, I have no knowledge of the existence of Muhammed or Christians or Jews in Hijaz or at any time in history etc because I was not there and it is generally meaningless to me, only how the Qur'an can be used on those who believe in it is important to me and how I can use it too. Weapons, tools, not "this is how it was" or anything, not even "this is what 19 definitely means". It is irrelevant to me, only that "good idea, we can say that and we can say other things" and use it in a variety of ways, just like a knife can be versatile or a rope.
The good old mainstream tradition of Quranism can't explain a verse or understand it, let's render it meaningless or pretend it isn't there.
One could say you are Freedomstands who is not willing to take a stand. Spokesperson of the mainstream. I'm not interested in what mainstream thinks. I'm interested in what Freedomstands thinks.
Peace
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Still interested to know what your qibla is and how you understand masjid al haram? Or do you just pretend those words aren't there? What is your place of return?
Peace
Allah is my qibla, and my place of return, the abode of peace.
I just pray in a certain direction in my home, I'm not entirely sure which direction it is facing, but since I am in Vancouver, if I am aiming from my location, my prayer beams (which I try to make very wide also) cover Jerusalem and Mecca. Phew!
If I turn the other way around, and bend my butt to Mecca at Mecca while facing Jerusalem, the prayer beams go all the way around this flat earth of ours and hit Mecca and my butt!
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Allah is my qibla, and my place of return, the abode of peace.
I just pray in a certain direction in my home, I'm not entirely sure which direction it is facing, but since I am in Vancouver, if I am aiming from my location, my prayer beams (which I try to make very wide also) cover Jerusalem and Mecca. Phew!
If I turn the other way around, and bend my butt to Mecca at Mecca while facing Jerusalem, the prayer beams go all the way around this flat earth of ours and hit Mecca and my butt!
50 % answered
and what is masjid al haram to you?
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The good old mainstream tradition of Quranism can't explain a verse or understand it, let's render it meaningless or pretend it isn't there.
One could say you are Freedomstands who is not willing to take a stand. Spokesperson of the mainstream. I'm not interested in what mainstream thinks. I'm interested in what Freedomstands thinks.
Peace
Mouth of Sauron. "Nabi" of "The Man, man!"
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Please answer in all sincerity.
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50 % answered
and what is masjid al haram to you?
The naughty masjid!
http//islamawakened.com/quran/9/7/
The Mainstream does not believe that Muhammed ever made a treaty near Jerusalem.
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How can there be a treaty with the polytheists on the part of God and His Messenger, except for those with whom you entered into a treaty at the Sacred Mosque? As long as they act straight with you, act straight with them. God loves those who are righteous.As for me though, The "Sacred Mosque" or whatever was some relevant and nearby place which was relevant to the people wherever Muhammed was.
910
"In a Believer they respect not the ties either of kinship or of covenant! It is they who have transgressed all bounds."The mainstream academics and others view the Arab culture to be one of ties of kinship and covenants of protection, and that this whole story is occurring in Mecca and Medina, a place populated by polytheists, an ancient shrine, Jews and Christians, and basically whatever the Qur'an says is there as a source believed to be contemporary to the time and place.
It is not believed by them that Muhammed was at Jerusalem or dealing near Jerusalem (I am not saying that is my belief, because like I've said before, I "believe" very little about anything, its all "trash" to me).
Meaning, Muhammed could have been on Mars, I don't even care much, it isn't the point of the religion at all in my view, its all worldly garbage.
Allah can easily make this or that true, can make it "proven to the whole world that Muhammed was in fact a Rabbi in Jerusalem, all evidence surfaces and Muhammed returns from the dead to say "Shalom!", says the National Enquirer".
Thank you though, feel free to ask me any more questions, because I love (as the mouth of Sauron) to spew blasphemies!
For example
The Qur'an is a book made of papers, it has many uses, such as bashing people over the head with it or burning it to produce heat for warmth.
or "I slap the face of Muhammed" (to kill a mosquito on his face before it bites him).
Muhammed the prophet, the blessed, the chosen, the sweet, the sensitive, the soft hearted, is apparently dead! Therefor, he is safe from all that people say. Many people are named Muhammed, and many mosquitos should be spared out of compassion, they are seeking food just like us!
Many carry the epithets of God as their names, like Akbar, Rahman, and whatever else.
These are just interesting things to think about.
Feel free to ask me more questions to learn about my hideous and frightening beliefs!
The messenger can not be harmed, nor can Allah.
Allah is the governance of all the worlds, the one who established Zionist Israel, Wahhabi Arabia, and Satanic America. He controls every action of their governments. Allah is the puppet-master of ISIS, AL-QAEDA, THE CIA, THE FBI, THE MAFIA, THE YAKUZA.
My lord is the Ultimate Pimp, the one who runs the drug trade, the one who runs the prostitution trade, the one who runs all economies and whatever is given and whatever is earned.
My Master is the King of Gangland, the Greatest Evil Force, Commanding legions upon legions of "unclean spirits" and, devils of humanity and whatever else, raping and pillaging. This is the God of the Old Testament, the God of the New Testament, the God of the Testament attributed to Muhammed known as the Qur'an, the Vedas, the Avestas, the Granth and whatever else from Egypt to Japan, from Germany to America, from the North to the South.
My God is the King of the Aztecs, the Lord of Black Magic, the Master of Illusion, Delusion, and Madness.
It was my God who initiated the Aztec human sacrifices, and it was my God who made it "fair seeming" to them, beyond any Iblis or Satan, it is my God who commands what is and what is not.
It was my God who willed the Zionists to be cruel, and of old decided the matters of Rome, the results of every moment of battle, who and how and where and when anyone died or was wounded and where and how the wounds appear and feel and what they think of the wounds too and what they do about them.
It was my God who told the Children of Israel to deny Jesus, and told Jesus to deny falsehood.
It is my God who was the Emperor, who inspired Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and the cat and the common village drunkard.
It is my God who is the true President of the United States of America, who created the Civil War, who killed every single person that was killed, who fired the guns precisely and directed the bullets.
Praise be to Allah, the terror of the worlds, the only one worthy of Awe and Fear.
Behold the hideous truth of the nature of Ultimate Reality.
Who can destroy the "Sacred Mosque" and pour filth over it and ignominy on all!
Who can take an innocent baby and make them grow into a disputing devil.
Who can take a disputing devil and make them a wealthy king with much joy
Who can take a wealthy king with much joy and give them paradise though they were unrighteous.
Who can take the one who was an innocent baby who was grown into a disputing devil and made into a wealthy king with much joy and given paradise even though they were unrighteous and make the entire heavens and the earth prostrate to him and command that all the people call such "Master, King" and whoever does not know that Allah is always the Master above all Masters, King above all Kings, Ruler above all Rulers, and God above all Powers, is one that Allah has made "blind, deaf, and dumb".
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Please answer in all sincerity.
Oops, I read this after writing that haha. It became quite sincere though!
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Trust me I find nothing blasphemous in it. Not an exact answer to what masjid al haram is to you either. You speak like a mystic much like your avatar. I'd appreciate a precise answer if at all possible. There was a time I enjoyed to partake in this kind of cryptic speech as well. But I'm much older now and my days are persistently getting shorter, so is my attention span.
Peace
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Trust me I find nothing blasphemous in it. Not an exact answer to what masjid al haram is to you either. You speak like a mystic much like your avatar. I'd appreciate a precise answer if at all possible. There was a time I enjoyed to partake in this kind of cryptic speech as well. But I'm much older now and my days are persistently getting shorter, so is my attention span.
Peace
Hmm. I'm not trying to be cryptic when I said the part about masjid al haram in there, but I'll try to clarify.
- I do not know for certain many things.
- There are a few things I know without a doubt, none of them are "worldly" matters, only essential Truths which can not be denied, such as "there is stuff", "stuff is being experienced".
- I do not know what Masjid Al Haram is for certain.
- I can at most guess what it Masjid Al Haram is.
- Masjid Al Haram seems to be some place.
- It may also be a spiritual reference at times as some believe too.
- I tend towards believing it is a place being referred to.
- This place appears to me to be where Muhammed is located and dealing with people.
- The place of Muhammed is generally believed to be Mecca and Muhammed by mainstream academics.
- Muhammed as a figure has no existence in my experience except as an individual apparently referred to in the Qur'an and referred to by others. Since he is long since dead apparently, his only existence now is as a figure that people speak of, like the Buddha, no one living knows for certain what he looked like, what he said, where or who he was for certain.
So, as I actually answered before. I don't know much about this. It appears that it was a place where Muhammed was, and Muhammed is believed to have been in Mecca, and it so people think it is a reference to some place there. To me, it isn't very important at the end of the day, all I can do is strategy and war.
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I agree you know very little about it, peace and thanks for the honest reply. Kind of weird though don't you think, having access to all the Scripture yet not being able to recognize a place described in Quran that should be as easy to recognize as your own sons?
"Those to whom We have given the Book recognize it as they recognize their sons. Those who have lost their own souls, they do not believe."
"Those to whom We gave the Scripture know it as they know their own sons. But indeed, a party of them conceal the truth while they know"From the dome of the rock
Inner Face South Wall. In the name of Allah the Merciful the Compassionate. There is no God but Allah alone; he has no co-partner. He is the Kingship and His the praise. He giveth life and He causeth to die, and He hath power over everything.
South-East Wall. Verily Allah and His angels pronounce blessing upon the Prophet. O ye who have pronounced blessings upon Him and give Him the salutation of peace. O, People of the Book (i.e. the Jews and Christians, always referred to as such by the Muslims -Ed.) do not go beyond the bounds in your religion and do not say about Allah anything but the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, is but a messenger of Allah and His word which he cast upon Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe only in Allah and of his messenger, but do not say "Three" (Trinity) and it will be better for you. Allah is only one God. Far be it from His glory that he should have a son.
North Wall. The Messiah will not deign to be in the service of Allah nor will the angels who stand in his presence. O Allah; pray upon Thy messenger "the servant Jesus - (N-W Wall) the son of Mary and peace be upon him the day of his birth, the day of his death and the day of his being raised alive." That is Jesus, son of Mary - a statement concerning which YOU are in doubt. It is not for Allah to take for Himself any offspring, glory be to Him.
West Wall. Allah bears witness that there is no God but Him, likewise the angels and the people possessed of knowledge (S-W WALL) - Upholding justice. There is no God but He, the Almighty and All wise. Verily, the religion in Allah's sight is Islam.
Outer Face West and North-West Walls. In the name of Allah the Merciful and Compassionate. There is no God but Allah alone. Praise be to Allah who hath not taken to himself offspring. To Him there has never been any person in the sovereignty. Mohammed is the messenger of Allah, may God pray upon Him and accept his intercession.
Praise be God who has not taken unto himself a son and who has no partner in sovereignty nor has He any protector on account of weakness.
Peace