Can we have concensus?
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Peace All.
I had to get back here when I saw this quote
But there is also not a single verse were it states that tomorrow is already created.
698"Mustakarrun" wa "Mustawdaa".... Does this imply that your path and destiny have already been decided by God?
Or let us have your interpretation?
3134Yes indeed GOD knows what will happen to each soul tomorrow" Ghaddan"and in which land it dies!!!! Tomorrow already created as far as GOD is concerned.
"Inna AllaH Aleemun Khabir"- GOD Knows everything.
GOD bless.
Peace. -
If you go against logic you can say that, like I stated many times before.
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Peace all,
We seem to agree that the god knows the past and the present of everything and everyone. What about the future ?
Let's suppose a person A at a certain point in time T, have to make a decision choosing between 100 possibilities, thus at T+1, there are 100 possible outcomes.
I think that the god decided to restrict himself and leave a tiny space of free choice to the person A, but he have established the laws beforehand and he knows all the 100 outcomes even before that person A would be aware of his 100 possible choices.
Evenmore, the god knows already what would be the choices available for person A at T+1for all the outcomes from choice at T. And so on, the god knows all the possibilities at T+2,.... T+n.
So, to sum it up, the god knows all the possible "lifes" that a person can live, some of these lifes would take him to paradise, and others would take him to hell. But the choice of which life to live is between the hands of each person, and at any point in time until death, the person is free to switch to this side or the other. And no one is saved beforehand, everyone has to earn his salvation.
Also, If the god wanted to judge and punish people everytime they err, then there would be no one still alive. But, he has decreeded on himself Mercy, and he is postponing the evaluation to a certain time, maybe we will become aware.
Peace
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We don't know the future but there are plenty of others who do.
For instance, the "malaika" in 230 knew the future.
The God's servant in 1880-81 had knowledge of the future.
Even Iblis knew the future in 717.
The God created time itself and He certainly knows the future.
...neither we nor the "malaika" can create the future. Thus the future can be considered as already created and this is how even Iblis was able to see it.
However, the future is not what you think. Time is not one dimensional. The fact is that we are able to make choices that change the future. Since we don't create the future, we must be only selecting from available futures. This indicates that although we are only aware of one dimension, time is multi-dimensional, thus enabling multiple possible futures.
That's why our choices are described as a path. It is a path on this two-dimensional time sheet. The only good path is the straight path.
An additional time dimension makes it possible for the future to be known and at the same time for us to have free-choice.
For each of us, the future converges onto two possible outcomes. There is a future where we are in heaven and there is a future where we are in hell. Iblis saw that in the majority of possible futures, people will follow him. We know for sure that he couldn't see who exactly will follow him because otherwise he can just sit back and relax instead of making the effort he talked about in 716.
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Exactly, no one is saved beforehand, it is a created fate.
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Peace All.
I had to get back here when I saw this quote
But there is also not a single verse were it states that tomorrow is already created.
698"Mustakarrun" wa "Mustawdaa".... Does this imply that your path and destiny have already been decided by God?
Or let us have your interpretation?Hi,
I looked at some translation to understand your point but I can't see it.
What is your translation of this verse that you came to this conclusion.RED Do you believe this?
3134
Yes indeed GOD knows what will happen to each soul tomorrow" Ghaddan"and in which land it dies!!!! Tomorrow already created as far as GOD is concerned.
"Inna AllaH Aleemun Khabir"- GOD Knows everything.
GOD bless.
Peace.According to this verse the red part is what Allah knows.
The blue part does not refer to something before it, as far as I can see. -
Peace all,
We seem to agree that the god knows the past and the present of everything and everyone. What about the future ?
Let's suppose a person A at a certain point in time T, have to make a decision choosing between 100 possibilities, thus at T+1, there are 100 possible outcomes.
I think that the god decided to restrict himself and leave a tiny space of free choice to the person A, but he have established the laws beforehand and he knows all the 100 outcomes even before that person A would be aware of his 100 possible choices.
Evenmore, the god knows already what would be the choices available for person A at T+1for all the outcomes from choice at T. And so on, the god knows all the possibilities at T+2,.... T+n.
So, to sum it up, the god knows all the possible "lifes" that a person can live, some of these lifes would take him to paradise, and others would take him to hell. But the choice of which life to live is between the hands of each person, and at any point in time until death, the person is free to switch to this side or the other. And no one is saved beforehand, everyone has to earn his salvation.
Also, If the god wanted to judge and punish people everytime they err, then there would be no one still alive. But, he has decreeded on himself Mercy, and he is postponing the evaluation to a certain time, maybe we will become aware.
Peace
Hi,
RED I would have formulated this a bit different but you have explained it very well, thx, totally agree with you handshake
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Peace all,
We seem to agree that the god knows the past and the present of everything and everyone. What about the future ?
Let's suppose a person A at a certain point in time T, have to make a decision choosing between 100 possibilities, thus at T+1, there are 100 possible outcomes.
I think that the god decided to restrict himself and leave a tiny space of free choice to the person A, but he have established the laws beforehand and he knows all the 100 outcomes even before that person A would be aware of his 100 possible choices.
Evenmore, the god knows already what would be the choices available for person A at T+1for all the outcomes from choice at T. And so on, the god knows all the possibilities at T+2,.... T+n.
So, to sum it up, the god knows all the possible "lifes" that a person can live, some of these lifes would take him to paradise, and others would take him to hell. But the choice of which life to live is between the hands of each person, and at any point in time until death, the person is free to switch to this side or the other. And no one is saved beforehand, everyone has to earn his salvation.
Also, If the god wanted to judge and punish people everytime they err, then there would be no one still alive. But, he has decreeded on himself Mercy, and he is postponing the evaluation to a certain time, maybe we will become aware.
Peace
God knows the future... the true God that is..
Past Present Future (time), Here There (space) is not a limitation for the (true) God..
Everything happened in accordance to His will at His appointed time..As thus.. it's ridiculous to think that the (true) God will ever be
- Pissed Off / Angry
- Betrayed / disappointed
- In conflict with something or somebody / Has enemy
"God does not play dice with the universe."
-- Albert Einstein -
As thus.. it's ridiculous to think that the (true) God will ever be
- Pissed Off / Angry
- Betrayed / disappointed
- In conflict with something or somebody / Has enemy
But how can we even have these thoughts of God displaying these human emotions in the first place, regardless of what He knows, because God is not anything like us?
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Peace Bender.
I am a bit confused. You seem to agree with someone,yet say GOD does not know the future?
Someone is saying what Qoran is saying ,Qoran also adds the fact that GOD also knows the exact path/s everyone of us will take/be taking.
GOD knowing of the details is irrelevant as far as choices and decisions of people go.We still are free and independently choose.For example GOD knew Pharaoh was not going to listen to Moses , despite all the miracles .
How would you explain" You do not will except as GOD wills"?
How do you explain the numerous verses stating that "God guides whomever He wills, and misleads whomever He wills?"It is based on His knowledge of the future. God assigns our souls to the circumstances that we deserve. When God said to the angels, "I know what you do not know" (230) What does it mean?
And what do you think this means?
5722GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Good logic,
That is illogical that God/Rabb knows which way people will take. Then if it was then it would be better for God/Rabb to just take each one of us and either throw us in Hell or Heaven than play this (in that case) stupid puppet show.
Do you not see that senseless nature in your reasoning!!!!???
We are here to prove who we are and if that was settled already then there is no use to have the show on the road.
Be well
Amenuel -
Peace Man Of Faith.
Then I can only say you do not know the message . You are not here to prove anything to GOD. You are here to redeem yourself.
GOD can create anything any time,of course GOD can create everything good or everything bad.You are here for you, because you have opted for this life . You made a covenant with your creator to give you "Al Amanata".So GOD has put you here to see for yourself how you do!!!!
Other creatures accepted GOD s will and settled the matter .
GOD already knows. You are here to prove to yourself your destiny.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Salam brother Bender.
I have been impressed with your understanding and analysis of Qur'an before so this sudden discovery that you believe in human free will independent of God is somewhat shocking to me. Could you please clarify the few points below
Q1 Do you have faith in Qur'an (as we have it with us today) in it's totality (as opposed to believing it is party correct and partly corrupted)?
Q2 Do you believe God knows when each of us will die?
If answer to both of the above is no, I have no farther botheration for you... you can believe whatever you like. But if answer to either of the above questions are yes, I will probably seek some more clarifications... for several things are not adding up.
Brother Someone.. the same questions apply for you.
May Allah guide us all to the straight way.
Arman
P.S. With regards to your Tic-Tac-Toe Challenge ... the very fact the you are raising the question whether God can defeat you in a game is itself telling a ton. Perhaps you are missing the point that you do not exist independent of God.
But yet, let me demonstrate that God can defeat you in a TTT game
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Can you make yourself loose a tic-tac-toe game... for example while playing with a kid... just to give the kid something to cheer about? If you can, then know that it is God who is defeating you. Because God is working through you.
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Do you believe that your brain can be crippled in a way that you loose all your senses and intelligence? Do you also understand that God has absolute control over every matter in the world including the neurons in your brain? Perhaps you can add these two up?
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God knows the future... the true God that is..
Past Present Future (time), Here There (space) is not a limitation for the (true) God..
Everything happened in accordance to His will at His appointed time..Hi,
If He (the true God) knows all our futures since the moment He said "be", then why are you so angry at ISIS and Saudi clergy?
It was all according to His will. One can only know something what yet has to happen ONLY if it's predestinated."God does not play dice with the universe."
-- Albert Einstein"Stop telling God what to do with His dice."
-- Niels Bohr -
Peace Bender.
I am a bit confused. You seem to agree with someone,yet say GOD does not know the future?
Hi,
What member someone said is totally different from knowing the future.
I guess you know at least rules of chess.
Lets play a game of chess, I am white, you are black.
Before I make my first move God knows that with perfect play from both of us it will end in a draw.
Then I make my first move say 1 d4.
Now God knows that all the moves you will make will still lead to a draw except if you play 1...h5 then I can force a mate in 139 moves if I play perfect and you play perfect.
You respond indeed with 1...h5. So it's mate in 139 now.
But in order to mate you in 139 moves is to make the only move, which is 2 d5.
But I do not know that and I play 2 Nf3.
Now God knows again that the game is draw again with best play.
But you respond not with the best moves and play 2...a5.
Now God knows I can force mate in 87 moves if I play 3 c4, I can force mate in 93 moves if I play 3 e4 and I can force mate in 103 moves if I play 3 e3, all the other moves lead to a draw.This is what someone meant, this is different then knowing the future. This is knowing what is.
Someone is saying what Qoran is saying ,Qoran also adds the fact that GOD also knows the exact path/s everyone of us will take/be taking.
RED I can not find such verses.
For example GOD knew Pharaoh was not going to listen to Moses , despite all the miracles .
I already gave you this verse earlier
2038
What is this then al about?How would you explain" You do not will except as GOD wills"?
Everything you do/will is by permission of God. If He does not grant His permission then you can will as much as you will but it will never happen.
How do you explain the numerous verses stating that "God guides whomever He wills, and misleads whomever He wills?"
I can not explain Gods will, this means I can not say a single thing as WHY God wants something this or that way, that is His will. He knows and I do not, and He has might to will whatever He wants and I do not.
It is based on His knowledge of the future. God assigns our souls to the circumstances that we deserve. When God said to the angels, "I know what you do not know" (230) What does it mean?
That He knows what they do not know. Sorry I can not make it clearer than it is stated.
And what do you think this means?
5722GOD bless you.
Peace.Something like this Whatever afflicts earth or you is by His command.
peace
Bender -
Salam brother Bender.
I have been impressed with your understanding and analysis of Qur'an before so this sudden discovery that you believe in human free will independent of God is somewhat shocking to me. Could you please clarify the few points below
Q1 Do you have faith in Qur'an (as we have it with us today) in it's totality (as opposed to believing it is party correct and partly corrupted)?
Salaam Arman,
I am convinced that the quran we have today (in it's totality) is "speaking" the truth.
Q2 Do you believe God knows when each of us will die?
No. But don't stop reading
This is how I see it.
When you where born God knows that you have a maximum of 200 years to live if you live in the perfect way.
Every cigarette you smoke there will go 1 minute off from your optimal lifespan.
And so with every action.
Thus yes He knows your optimal lifespan but not when you will die, as it's your choice to smoke or not to smoke, of course UNLESS He speaks His word over you that you will die on time x, then you are predestinated.If you think that God knows when you will die, then why will you take your son or daughter or mother or father or whoever to a doctor to heal him/her.
The doctor is useless, if God has determined that your son will live 87 years than it is even not needed to feed him when he is just a baby. God's word is will and if He decided 87 years of life for you son than do not feed him or take him to a doctor, God will take care of him and he will survive till he reaches 87.By the way why are we going to hell if you murder someone? When you stand before Allah, you can defend yourself with
"well I was just helping you God.
I killed him when he was 35 years old and because the poor guy indeed died means that you already had determined that the poor guy will day at 35.
So I do not understand why you are judging me God, I was just helping you. I am killing in Your name."If answer to both of the above is no, I have no farther botheration for you... you can believe whatever you like.
I know that for some my view on this is shocking as this makes Allah not almighty according to some, but this is not the case.
Almighty is when you can do whatever you will without limits. And that is Allah, He does what He wills, that is Al Mighty.P.S. With regards to your Tic-Tac-Toe Challenge ... the very fact the you are raising the question whether God can defeat you in a game is itself telling a ton. Perhaps you are missing the point that you do not exist independent of God.
But yet, let me demonstrate that God can defeat you in a TTT game
-
Can you make yourself loose a tic-tac-toe game... for example while playing with a kid... just to give the kid something to cheer about? If you can, then know that it is God who is defeating you. Because God is working through you.
-
Do you believe that your brain can be crippled in a way that you loose all your senses and intelligence? Do you also understand that God has absolute control over every matter in the world including the neurons in your brain? Perhaps you can add these two up?
I think you missed the point. Of course He can give me a brain damage or make me a zombie so that I will loose even to a frog. That is not the question I am asking.
I have a couple of verses for you
31403166
31675725
2038
And there are so many many more verses like this.
And think about the messengers, think about all the inspirations you get daily. -
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Salam brother Arman, all
Here are my answers to your questions
Q1 I will answer this question as in 37 in that "all is from the god".
Also, I think that Al-quran as we find it now is the best book of guidance available. Sure, I haven't read all the books available, but so far, no book can surpass it.Q2 Yes, but not as you seem to think.
Please see the picture below presenting a person's decision tree. To make the reasoning easier, we suppose that at each time, the person can choose only between 2 options (Green=good, red=bad). The blue represents birth, and black is death.https//i.imgsafe.org/7c18fee.png
Birth is at T0, then the decision making process starts. The person may not know where each path will lead, but the god knows where each path goes, even for death time, place, and condition.
You can see on that picture that death can happen at different position in times (T2, T3, T4, T5 OR T6), and also in different places, and the person may die as a good or bad person.
The god knows all the decision tree for this person, but let the person choose the path to take the straight one or the crooked one. Every one is writing his own book by his own hands, but the decision tree is decided by the god from before with many different endings.
Peace
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Salam brother Arman, all
Here are my answers to your questions
Q1 I will answer this question as in 37 in that "all is from the god".
Also, I think that Al-quran as we find it now is the best book of guidance available. Sure, I haven't read all the books available, but so far, no book can surpass it.Q2 Yes, but not as you seem to think.
Please see the picture below presenting a person's decision tree. To make the reasoning easier, we suppose that at each time, the person can choose only between 2 options (Green=good, red=bad). The blue represents birth, and black is death.https//i.imgsafe.org/7c18fee.png
Birth is at T0, then the decision making process starts. The person may not know where each path will lead, but the god knows where each path goes, even for death time, place, and condition.
You can see on that picture that death can happen at different position in times (T2, T3, T4, T5 OR T6), and also in different places, and the person may die as a good or bad person.
The god knows all the decision tree for this person, but let the person choose the path to take the straight one or the crooked one. Every one is writing his own book by his own hands, but the decision tree is decided by the god from before with many different endings.
Peace
Salaam Mohamed,
Thank you!!! Nice explaining this is exactly how I also understand handshake
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But how can we even have these thoughts of God displaying these human emotions in the first place, regardless of what He knows, because God is not anything like us?
Ancient (western) people see God as if He's a human being..
They even think that He eat food (that's why sacrifice is needed to feed God)..How it came to be?
Perhaps human always try to understand things using their own perspective..
And things which pleases them will also pleases God.
Things which unpleasant to them will also be unpleasant to God.Not only God, they also see stars, sun, moon, sky, mountain and ocean as if they're human being..
Sending them poem (mantra) and offering to please them, hoping that the ocean will bring forth the fishes, sky to bring forth rain etc...Did I mentioned that they also think that rain can come through sacrificing virgins (killing them) to the sky God?
Oh yes they do...Eastern culture however didn't see God as if He's a human being..