Can we have concensus?

Bender

Yep, wasn't bad.

I guess it was to complex for you ;D

Yes, I know the difference between knowing and a prediction. Not sure if it's your wording here but given your earlier replies as 'God does not know until it becomes a matter'...what are you saying? Does God know you are going to get hungry at the precise time you do before you actually do and will be going to the fridge using the precise number of steps that you eventually end up taking etc or not? If he does, then yay, we are done pretty much. If not, then if I get up to go to the fridge because I'm hungry and can count my steps if I wanted to...what is the difference between God's knowledge and mine? Are you saying I randomly walk towards the fridge and don't know why I'm walking towards it and only God does? I'm sure you can appreciate the convoluted disconnect that seems to be manifesting itself here.

REDI agree, I was not totally clear, but I thought that you would understand what I meant without making it to boring. But I agree, in such discussions it is indeed better to be very clear.

What I meant with "He knows exactly when you will get hunger again" is because He knows your body and He knows the things He determined.
Lets say the optimal position to hold out hunger is laying still in an optimal environment. And lets say 1 apple will give you 5 hours of satiety. You do not have this information, God does. If you just flash with your eyes then He knows that you do not have 5 hours left but 1 second less because you spilled some energy. With every movement you make He knows exactly how much energy it costs and how much time will go off from the optimal 5 hours. You do not have this information.
Thus He knows the effects of your moves but not when you will make a move, that is your choice.

I got some words from google translate (so not sure if those are the right terms) and my sentences are not worth a nobel prize but I hope you understand now.

The algorithm thing and the rest doesn't follow with the leaps here. God didn't pull the trigger for you.

Who did if it wasn't Him?
3873

or did I misunderstood you?

And here is where we come back to 'if God knew then I shouldn't have existed/should've intervened/not my fault/i'm just a tool like Iblis' complaint so on. Like I said, we can take this to mean we are all puppets or we can look at alternatives which might include viable reasons as to why God would create this type of a scenario.
My view on it currently is that free choice has a lot to do with it. No one has true free will no matter if this was a random creation or not, we are constrained by something or another.

RED constrained by what? You are not constrained in your choices by anyone UNLESS you are forced by someone. And that is what Allah does not like, oppression. Those who oppress, thus take away the free will Allah gave them, they will have a difficult day when they will face Allah.

The point is to see how we perform given the choices available to us which we are free to choose from.

I can agree with this )
In fact you have endless choices on your account, but of course this endless has an end. You can will to kill someone with your eyes, but you do not have the power for such things, so there is for sure a border.

If the argument now is that the choices presented themselves are a form of compulsion, when are we free from such I ask you?
No matter which model you bring up, there are always constraints and choices are always limited to within those constraints.

You have a choice to eat a red apple or a green one you can even decide to go to a shop and buy a banana or not eat at all or wait a little bit, how long you wait is also your choice etc. So only with this you have like endless options to choose from.
But there are also situations were you have only 2 choices. Fire in your house, jump from your window and hope for the best or not jump and burn (if that was the only choice of course).
So yes sometimes we are restricted, but we have always at least 2 choices.

I've probably digressed but I suppose first we need to deal with can God know everything (no exceptions) or not, then deal with the ramifications of such, instead of rolling the cart backwards or whatever the saying is.

Of course He can. Like I said He can make every free will not free at any moment He wants.
But according to the quran (of course MY understanding of the quran) is that he willed a free will for us. Of course free with restrictions like I I mentioned before.

I'm sure it is, I suppose you'll tell me it has to do with the stones in the pavement that are in front and the wind at the back laugh

A lot translate it something like this "He knows their past and their future" or something similar.
And this is simply a false translation.

Man_of_Faith

Comrox,

How can someone know something that has not been created or performed yet? Is that a fallacy? The future is being created as we go. I do not deem Rabb fallacious or lacking omnipotence because of that.

Surely if now Rabb had determined that the future had certain events to occur then sure they are predetermined (sort of predestination) and we are living through events prophesied thousands of years ago right now. Still the events surrounding the main events can vary and there are other circumstances. For you as person, you are in control of your development and you cannot blame Rabb for that as is the case with the believers in predestination. In practice you give Rabb the blame for you failing and entering Hell if that is your destiny with this reasoning concerning predestination.

The prophecy that occurs now depends on the people and their readiness to have a good versus bad role in it although those taking the negative side do it in ignorance (are "kafaroon&quot as their ability to see straight is impaired by their lack of spiritual development. The culprit here is their very own bodies which have an increasing domination over their spirit and could be perceived like dense fog over a meadow making it nearly impossible to see what is around and at the other side of it.

Be well
Amenuel

savage_carrot

So, if I'm correctly understanding what you are trying to say here, the flaw in saying that God does not know the future is that God is not as omnipotent and almighty as He claims?
Not really, the flaw I suppose may lie in what we think of those terms.

The concept of time and relationship of time to our actions is what is difficult for me to understand and wrap my head around, I think. I think I understand what you said about the black spot. I will ponder about it more.

Absolutely, thinking about stuff like this is an ongoing process.

You said "For the quran to say with authority in many places who is going to hell and who isn't, about events that haven't unfolded yet and so on and so forth we can only take it to mean someone up there knows, what's the alternative?" A possible alternative argument could be that God knows the nature of how He initially created humans, so based on that knowledge of human nature He knows people will deviate. He set up laws in place that people will stray from.
If we are talking knowledge, it can be complete/absolute or incomplete/partial. It's the level of accuracy/specificity that we're kinda talking about...or rather I'm talking about

I was shuffling through my iTunes library when I read this...
They call such things synchronicity...

I guess it was to complex for you
Or not enough

REDI agree, I was not totally clear, but I thought that you would understand what I meant without making it to boring. But I agree, in such discussions it is indeed better to be very clear.

What I meant with "He knows exactly when you will get hunger again" is because He knows your body and He knows the things He determined.
Lets say the optimal position to hold out hunger is laying still in an optimal environment. And lets say 1 apple will give you 5 hours of satiety. You do not have this information, God does. If you just flash with your eyes then He knows that you do not have 5 hours left but 1 second less because you spilled some energy. With every movement you make He knows exactly how much energy it costs and how much time will go off from the optimal 5 hours. You do not have this information.
Thus He knows the effects of your moves but not when you will make a move, that is your choice.

I got some words from google translate (so not sure if those are the right terms) and my sentences are not worth a nobel prize but I hope you understand now.
So he's essentially a chess player who knows the opponent entirely? Lol. At the end of the day, you're thinking God is some kinda Sherlock and so am I. The ways and means are different. In my view, it's not mutually exclusive and I see viable alternatives.

Who did if it wasn't Him?
3873

or did I misunderstood you?
I'm really not sure what you mean here.

RED constrained by what? You are not constrained in your choices by anyone UNLESS you are forced by someone. And that is what Allah does not like, oppression. Those who oppress, thus take away the free will Allah gave them, they will have a difficult day when they will face Allah.
You are constrained by your circumstances.

In fact you have endless choices on your account, but of course this endless has an end. You can will to kill someone with your eyes, but you do not have the power for such things, so there is for sure a border.

We don't have endless choices

You have a choice to eat a red apple or a green one you can even decide to go to a shop and buy a banana or not eat at all or wait a little bit, how long you wait is also your choice etc. So only with this you have like endless options to choose from.
But there are also situations were you have only 2 choices. Fire in your house, jump from your window and hope for the best or not jump and burn (if that was the only choice of course).
So yes sometimes we are restricted, but we have always at least 2 choices.

I think you're using endless as a way of saying many, alright.

Of course He can. Like I said He can make every free will not free at any moment He wants.
But according to the quran (of course MY understanding of the quran) is that he willed a free will for us. Of course free with restrictions like I I mentioned before.

Responded previously. Doesn't have to conflict.

A lot translate it something like this "He knows their past and their future" or something similar.
And this is simply a false translation.
What's the true translation?

Armanaziz

When a people choose their traditions and practices of their parents over their God-gifted sense of right and wrong, they deserve to be deviated. They earn this deviation by engaging in sectarian hostility, conflict and war.

I think the above statement is what Recluse has been repeatedly saying is unfair. How much do people really chose? If I try to assume more about your response based on "engaging in sectarian hostility, conflict and war", I could assume you may categorize these people by how much harm (or peace) their actions result in.

Thanks Comrox.

I am not talking about people deserving deviation because of their religion / tradition. It is not the birth of a person to a religion that is to be held against the person - but his/her blind following of tradition especially when such following goes against his/her God-gifted sense of right and wrong. And this applies to people of all religions equally.

Being born of a Hindu family is not a sin, nor is it a sin that one follows what one finds best in the tradition that he inherited. But burning widows alive in the name of tradition is of course a sin - and whoever supports such view deserves the deviation and suffering.

Being born of a Buddhist family is not a sin, nor is it a sin that one follows what one finds best in the tradition that he inherited. But persecuting Rohingyas in the name of Budhdhist solidarity is of course a sin - and whoever supports such view deserves the deviation and suffering.

Being born of a Christian family is not a sin, nor is it a sin that one follows what one finds best in the tradition that he inherited. But practicing white supremacy ideology (like the KKK) in the name of Jesus is of course a sin - and whoever supports such view deserves the deviation and suffering.

Being born of a Jewish family is not a sin, nor is it a sin that one follows what one finds best in the tradition that he inherited. But persecuting Palestinians in the name of Zionism is of course a sin - and whoever supports such view deserves the deviation and suffering.

Being born of a Sunni family is not a sin, nor is it a sin that one follows what one finds best in the tradition that he inherited. But harboring hostility against the Shias (and vice versa) and people of other religion in general in the name of Islam is of course a sin - and whoever supports such view deserves the deviation and suffering.

May Allah guide us all to the straight way.

Regards,
Arman

Bender

At the end of the day, you're thinking God is some kinda Sherlock and so am I.

Hi,

Not totally sure what you meant.

Anyway my position is that He knows every outcome of every action/matter there is.
And because I believe He gave us a free will (thus no algorithm in us), He can not know what I will do next year because me myself have not even thought about it thus it's not a matter yet which He can know.
With other words if you plug in me a supercomputer which is "almighty" and it analyses all the data in me, then this computer can never know what I will do tomorrow. Because there is no information in me now, except the trivial things (I will breathe, eat, sleep, etc tomorrow), which will give this computer data to know what I will do tomorrow.
If this supercomputer is able to predict exactly every action of me what I will do tomorrow then it means, that it can not only predict tomorrow, but also predict exactly what I do next year and what my grand grand grand children wil do, this thus means that we do not have a free will but are puppets who were doomed to hell or heaven at the moment He said "Be" and I do not believe in this as this goes against my believe and I do also not see a single verse in the quran where such thing is claimed. In fact all verses about this subject in the quran look like to support my view (ofcourse my understanding of it).

We don't have endless choices )I think you're using endless as a way of saying many, alright.

No not really, I meant endless like infinite.
You have $1000000 and I have $100. You have more choices then me what to do with your million but I still have like you infinite choices what to do with my $100.
But we both are restricted to the amount of money we have.

What's the true translation?

imo it should be something like this "He knows what is within their reach/might and what is outside them"

Bender

God is not as omnipotent and almighty as He claims?

Peace all. peace

Hi,

What do you think, can God win a game of tic tac toe against me?
Some information about me before you answer to quickly or misjudge me, I am the best tic tac toe player in the world.
Since I found the not loosing strategy, I never lost to anyone.

So what do you think? I am actually also interested in the answers of other members if they like to answer.

hawk99

Peace bender, you have a very interesting point of view.
Are you saying that Allah does not know the future?

Bender

Peace bender, you have a very interesting point of view.
Are you saying that Allah does not know the future?

Hi,

First of all I believe the future does not exists. Only the now exists.
What you see now and what is now, that is what is.
We are developing in what He creates and He did not create tomorrow yet, what is now that is His creation.
So speaking in terms of future or time does not make sense.
The destination of a lot of things however is determined, but we humans are not of those who have been predestinated, we have our own "future" in our own hands.
If we have it in our hands as the quran and my own feeling suggests then He can not know my "future" unless He decides that I will be one of the predestinated, and doing this last thing is as easy for Him as giving me my own "future" in my own hands.

So in short, He is able to know the "future", He has might over it, but He willed that we will evolve on our own but restricted by His laws.

hawk99

First of all I believe the future does not exists. Only the now exists.

ok so no future, so words like tomorrow, later, in the future, next, Insha'Allah mean what?

What you see now and what is now, that is what is.

I agree

We are developing in what He creates and He did not create tomorrow yet, what is now that is His creation.
So speaking in terms of future or time does not make sense.

ok, any support from Quran on this?

The destination of a lot of things however is determined, but we humans are not of those who have been predestinated, we have our own "future" in our own hands.
If we have it in our hands as the quran and my own feeling suggests then He can not know my "future" unless He decides that I will be one of the predestinated, and doing this last thing is as easy for Him as giving me my own "future" in my own hands.

So in short, He is able to know the "future", He has might over it, but He willed that we will evolve on our own but restricted by His laws.

Interesting, so you are saying Allah does not know or does not want to know some things? hmm

peace

Bender

ok so no future, so words like tomorrow, later, in the future, next, Insha'Allah mean what?

Hi,

They mean that we trust Allah that His word is true.
We calculate "time" by the movement of things which are predestinated, because we trust that Allah will not change His laws/word.

ok, any support from Quran on this?

Not really. But there is also not a single verse were it states that tomorrow is already created.

Interesting, so you are saying Allah does not know or does not want to know some things? hmm

peace

That is not the correct formulation, because He knows all things.
Whatever you do/think/whatever, He knows.
But what you have not done/thought/whatever, He does not know that, as He left it in your hands, you are writing your own book and He is "reading" your book while you write it.

The pages of tomorrow are blank in your book till tomorrow then you will write them.
Yes there are some sketches on those blank pages, your plans for tomorrow, and He knows all those sketches, but those are sketches and while tomorrow nears those sketches change and He knows all the changes in your sketches but not what you really going to write there, till the moment of real writing.

I think I am repeating myself now. And do not know how to make my view more clear than I already did.

savage_carrot

What do you think, can God win a game of tic tac toe against me? So what do you think? I am actually also interested in the answers of other members if they like to answer.
I'll bite! I'm more a woman of action so know what, I'm just going to stop at the last move and say nyah nyah, haven't made it yet and keep God on the edge of his seat. How many can do that! Hang on, I guess everyone does until they do (make their moves that is)...not very climatic then. I'm curious though, given your thing about how God knows I'm about to get hungry at xyz hour like Sherlock, wouldn't God know I'd do that? What's the difference then between him actually knowing the future and knowing the...er, future...actually even? laugh

Man_of_Faith

Bender gives the correct account. God/Rabb does not know something that has never happened as the sequence is not yet created. That does not make God/Rabb weak.

Be well
Amenuel

good_logic

Peace All.

I had to get back here when I saw this quote
But there is also not a single verse were it states that tomorrow is already created.
698

"Mustakarrun" wa "Mustawdaa".... Does this imply that your path and destiny have already been decided by God?
Or let us have your interpretation?
3134

Yes indeed GOD knows what will happen to each soul tomorrow" Ghaddan"and in which land it dies!!!! Tomorrow already created as far as GOD is concerned.

"Inna AllaH Aleemun Khabir"- GOD Knows everything.

GOD bless.
Peace.

Man_of_Faith

If you go against logic you can say that, like I stated many times before.

Someone

Peace all,

We seem to agree that the god knows the past and the present of everything and everyone. What about the future ?

Let's suppose a person A at a certain point in time T, have to make a decision choosing between 100 possibilities, thus at T+1, there are 100 possible outcomes.

I think that the god decided to restrict himself and leave a tiny space of free choice to the person A, but he have established the laws beforehand and he knows all the 100 outcomes even before that person A would be aware of his 100 possible choices.

Evenmore, the god knows already what would be the choices available for person A at T+1for all the outcomes from choice at T. And so on, the god knows all the possibilities at T+2,.... T+n.

So, to sum it up, the god knows all the possible "lifes" that a person can live, some of these lifes would take him to paradise, and others would take him to hell. But the choice of which life to live is between the hands of each person, and at any point in time until death, the person is free to switch to this side or the other. And no one is saved beforehand, everyone has to earn his salvation.

Also, If the god wanted to judge and punish people everytime they err, then there would be no one still alive. But, he has decreeded on himself Mercy, and he is postponing the evaluation to a certain time, maybe we will become aware.

Peace

Wilson

We don't know the future but there are plenty of others who do.

For instance, the "malaika" in 230 knew the future.

The God's servant in 1880-81 had knowledge of the future.

Even Iblis knew the future in 717.

The God created time itself and He certainly knows the future.

...neither we nor the "malaika" can create the future. Thus the future can be considered as already created and this is how even Iblis was able to see it.

However, the future is not what you think. Time is not one dimensional. The fact is that we are able to make choices that change the future. Since we don't create the future, we must be only selecting from available futures. This indicates that although we are only aware of one dimension, time is multi-dimensional, thus enabling multiple possible futures.

That's why our choices are described as a path. It is a path on this two-dimensional time sheet. The only good path is the straight path.

An additional time dimension makes it possible for the future to be known and at the same time for us to have free-choice.

For each of us, the future converges onto two possible outcomes. There is a future where we are in heaven and there is a future where we are in hell. Iblis saw that in the majority of possible futures, people will follow him. We know for sure that he couldn't see who exactly will follow him because otherwise he can just sit back and relax instead of making the effort he talked about in 716.

Man_of_Faith

Exactly, no one is saved beforehand, it is a created fate.

Bender

I'm curious though, given your thing about how God knows I'm about to get hungry at xyz hour like Sherlock, wouldn't God know I'd do that?

Know what? I didn't get it.

Bender

Peace All.

I had to get back here when I saw this quote
But there is also not a single verse were it states that tomorrow is already created.
698

"Mustakarrun" wa "Mustawdaa".... Does this imply that your path and destiny have already been decided by God?
Or let us have your interpretation?

Hi,

I looked at some translation to understand your point but I can't see it.
What is your translation of this verse that you came to this conclusion.

RED Do you believe this?

3134