Is Qur'an Alone the Last Step Before Leaving Islam Completely?
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Yes s c.
All I can say to that is "Happy clapping to both sets of fans" the old and the new.
I must disappear quick now because
A- I have no evidence for what I am saying( Sorry brother Wakas!)
B- I have gone off topic. Sorry folks.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Wow I really seem to have stirred a hornets nest with the mods - who has a bee in their bonnet exactly? rotfl
You seem to be under the impression that I/others will fall for your obvious attempt at changing your argument and your woeful lack of Quranic evidence.
I don't respect your sentiment Wakas, I find it sly - you're trying to imply that I'm being manipulative - and how is posting verses of the Quran supporting my position being "woeful lack of Quranic evidence"?
What's wrong Osman - cant stand the heat once you are exposed? It's ok, I only expect sincere truthseekers to correct themselves.
WOW - you're not doing a very good job of hiding how threatened you feel ;D And yes, I'm shaking in my Sunni-boots right now & I clearly can't stand the 'heat'
From where I stand, the stakeholders of this forum have clearly had their feathers ruffled which is why there's been a quick flurry to try and shut me up. There are other people on this forum who post all kinds of unreasonable nonesense and you stand aside, there's a pattern where you go for those who specifically threaten the ideological position of Free-Minds, especially those who are thought of as being 'traditional'. Talk about cult tactics.
You also repeatedly try to imply that because I don't always respond to the sheer volume of crazy that is posted on Free-Minds, this means I somehow can't refute it. Quite simply put - there is not enough time in the day for one person to respond to all the craziness posted here.
What I said was
Qur'an & Torah - Gays are evil and should be killed, West - Gays are fine and should be tolerated
Quran & Torah - Theives should have their hands cut off or treated severely, West - much less severe
Quran & Torah - Insulting your parents is a special type of rebellion which should be punished severely, West - Leave them kids alone man!
Quran & Torah - Women should be modest and covering their heads esp in religious matters, West - bikinis and nakedness everywhereSo let's settle this silly little tangent once and for all.
Quran and Torah on gays
Leviticus 1822
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind it is abomination.Leviticus 2013
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.Qur'an 2928-29
"And (remember) Lut behold, he said to his people "Ye do commit lewdness, such as no people in Creation (ever) committed before you. "Do ye indeed approach men, and cut off the highway? And practise wickedness (even) in your councils?" But his people gave no answer but this they said "Bring us the Wrath of God if thou tellest the truth."Qur'an 780-81
And Lot! (Remember) when he said unto his folk Will ye commit abomination such as no creature ever did before you? Lo! ye come with lust unto men instead of women. Nay, but ye are wanton folk.Qur'an 26165-173
"Do you approach males among the worlds and leave what your Lord has created for you as mates? But you are a people transgressing." They said, "If you do not desist, O Lot, you will surely be of those evicted." He said, "Indeed, I am, toward your deed, of those who detest . My Lord, save me and my family from what they do." So We saved him and his family, all, except an old woman among those who remained behind. Then We destroyed the others. And We rained upon them a rain , and evil was the rain of those who were warned.What did God do to the people of Lot Wakas?
So with the usual mincing you've created a new sub-issue when you quibble over whether the Qur'an is explicit in saying gays should be killed. First of all, I was clearly referring to Abrahamic religions in general when I said Quran & Torah, and I've just proven the claim anyway with the posted verses above. Second, you're just tiptoeing around the previous issue which was whether Western countries or Muslim countries are closer to 'Islamic' values. God destroys the people of Lot for their lewd behaviour, so no amount of nitpicking on your part should be surprised that Muslims will then apply the rulings of their Lord to homosexuals and people who commit sexual lewdness in general.
Quran and Torah on thieves
Exodus 223
If the sun be risen upon him, there shall be blood shed for him; for he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.Quran 538
As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise.Mince around this one for as long as you want Wakas, it's very clear, yet YOU wish to confuse what it says.
Quran and Torah on parents
Deuteronomy 516
Honor your father and your mother as the Lord your God has commanded you.Quran 4135
O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice, witnesses for Allah , even if it be against yourselves or parents and relatives. Whether one is rich or poor, Allah is more worthy of both. So follow not inclination, lest you not be just. And if you distort or refuse , then indeed Allah is ever, with what you do, Acquainted.Quran and Torah on women's dress
Quran 2431-48
And enjoin believing women to cast down their looks and guard their private parts and not reveal their adornment except that which is revealed of itself, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their husbands, or their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or of their own sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or the women with whom they associate, or those that are in their bondage, or the male attendants in their service free of sexual interest, or boys that are yet unaware of illicit matters pertaining to women. Nor should they stamp their feet on the ground in such manner that their hidden ornament becomes revealed. Believers, turn together, all of you, to Allah in repentance that you may attain true success.
Are you going to try and convince me that attitudes in the West is closer to following God's commandments around women's dress? yeahAlso, even Christianity has a similar one, which is where my point stressing Orthodoxy came in
1st Corinthians 115-7
But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved. For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head. For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.You're very well aware, the modern West is secular and not bound by these rules like Muslim or Orthodox countries so YOU KNOW FINE WELL THAT THE IDEA THE WEST FOLLOWS ABRAHAMIC LAWS MORE CLOSELY THAN MUSLIM COUNTRIES IS LUDICROUS which was the original tangent to begin with. The reason you're opposed to it is because it stands in the way of the little ideology you help maintain here.
I've inadvertently challenged one of the fundamental ideological positions of Free-Minds and this makes you feel threatened which why you now have sand in your pants and you're trying to shut me up before my ideas catch on with other less devoted members.
The issue isn't that you can't understand that Muslim countries do in fact represent Quranic and Biblical principles more closely than the West, it is that you won't admit this obvious fact.
The blatantly obvious reality contradicts your cult mentality and this why you're getting so offended.
Get over yourself.
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Here's one from Leviticus
209
For zanyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother; his blood is upon him.Am I imagining things? Is my heart diseased? I'm sure 'curse' is metaphorical for 'blessed' or some such nonesence...
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Osman,
It's interesting how you say to me "get over yourself" whilst at the same time claiming I feel threatened by your posts and the mods are out to get you and you have "inadvertently challenged one of the fundamental ideological positions of Free-Minds" etc. You have done none of these things.
It's really simple what happened
I said, quote "Many western countries have the basic Quran principles in place...".
TH mentioned the same thing, quote "...Quranic principles...".
You even quoted TH and said "Let's see a quick overview of some Quranic principles vis a vis Western principles" then went onto discuss "Quran and Torah"!(In case it is not blatantly obvious so far, we had been discussing Quran, not Torah.)
So I responded by saying you seem to be referring to aspects of Traditional Islam and not Quran. I was only interested in claims about Quran.
You replied primarily discussing Quran, not clarifying part of your claims were based on Torah not Quran.
I then replied putting you firmly on the spot, pointing out the specific claims.
You then replied, showing us more clearly what parts were from Torah and what was from Quran.And that is what I was wanting to highlight. Much of what you said has nothing to do with Quran.
So, finally, we can now review the evidence
gays should be killed
You cited no Quranic evidence, and clearly showing its from Torah. You are then reduced to claiming since God destroyed such people, you imply that means Quran is saying we can kill them too. Amusingly you then talk about what Muslims will apply ............ I dont care what Muslims will apply. I only care about what Quran says.Quran does not say gays should be killed. Case closed. Next...
cut-off hands of thieves
Worryingly, you commit a logical fallacy called circular argument
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning
Circular reasoning (Latin circulus in probando, "circle in proving"; also known as circular logic) is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with.
You Quran 538 says "cut-off" hands of thieves because in my view the word in question means "cut-off".
Classic example of this logical fallacy. In fact, it is so clear I may use your statement as a reference in future. ;D
severe punishment for insulting parents
This is your clearest error by far. The Quran verse you reference showed nothing of the sort. To be honest, it seems you gave up on arguing this one. One would have thought you would have honestly admitted your mistake.women must cover their head
Again, the verse you cited showed nothing of the sort. Again, it seems like you gave up on arguing this one. One would have thought you would have honestly admitted your mistake.In case it is not obvious by now, TH and I were discussing Quran principles, not Torah, not Muslims, not Islam.
If you want to argue about something we never mentioned (strawman logical fallacy btw) feel free.
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And that is just one half of what his beef is. The other has to do with going around saying 'it's just all so wrong, I feel it y'all' regarding the state of the forum and how it's helping people over to the dark side boatloads at a time.
Wow I really seem to have stirred a hornets nest with the mods - who has a bee in their bonnet exactly?
Apparently that would still be you. Wow.From where I stand, the stakeholders of this forum have clearly had their feathers ruffled which is why there's been a quick flurry to try and shut me up.
Yeah, the 'stakeholders' are apparently two mods lol. I can see where you stand, they're called the Poles of Paranoia.There are other people on this forum who post all kinds of unreasonable nonesense and you stand aside, there's a pattern where you go for those who specifically threaten the ideological position of Free-Minds, especially those who are thought of as being 'traditional'. Talk about cult tactics.
If that was the case, then there would be no dissent but obviously when one is in the throes of passionate axe grinding, facts don't matter.Someone's delusions of grandeur (it's all about me) or shall we say, persecution (they're out to get me) jump straight away to weird conspiracy theories. Somehow it's just not possible that two mods could ever respond to one thread that has to do with the forum, nope it's totally out of the realm of possibility without it meaning we don't want this (whatever this is) let out as it threatens all we hold dear. And they definitely don't want to discuss it, since their posts contained nothing except 'shut up you amazing sherlock you, you're threatening us so very badly'...
Here's a hint, we could ban you in a minute and delete all your posts if we were evil and if you were actually a threat and if we really wanted to shut you up. As happens in other places. The next step now that the passive aggressive mask is off is to up the ante and scream 'help i'm being oppressed by the stakeholders of the forum' in every post dealing with how dead and awful the forum is, how everyone is leaving for the arms of darkness and that the ones in the know are threatened by your amazing powers of deduction and observation but still let you opine...somehow, magically, mysteriously.
Threaten us right or go home.
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It's interesting how you say to me "get over yourself" whilst at the same time claiming I feel threatened by your posts and the mods are out to get you and you have "inadvertently challenged one of the fundamental ideological positions of Free-Minds" etc. You have done none of these things.
Yes I have. Your problem is you can't stand the fact that Muslim countries follow the Quran a lot closer than you're willing to admit - and I find it very telling the way you've painted me as someone who thinks like a 'traditional' simply for taking the verse around cutting of hands literally and stating it's no wonder Muslims are harsh towards gays due to what is stated in the Quran.
It's really simple what happened
I said, quote "Many western countries have the basic Quran principles in place...".
TH mentioned the same thing, quote "...Quranic principles...".
You even quoted TH and said "Let's see a quick overview of some Quranic principles vis a vis Western principles" then went onto discuss "Quran and Torah"!Let's check that quote then
I think many western countries (e.g. Ireland, Germany and Belgium) are closer to Quranic principles than eastern countries. But I also acknowledge the fact that there are a few eastern countries that are very close to Quranic principles (e.g. Japan, South Korea and Taiwan). The few eastern countries (e.g. Japan, South Korea and Taiwan) that are close to Quranic principles, are probably as close to Quranic principles as the western countries (e.g. Ireland, Germany and Belgium) that are close to Quranic principles.
I disagreed with this quote and stated that Muslim countries still follow Quranic principles in certain areas closer than the West - are you going to disagree with me on this one?
You replied primarily discussing Quran, not clarifying part of your claims were based on Torah not Quran.
You've just contradicted yourself here, who isn't trying exactly and who is building straw men now?
I then replied putting you firmly on the spot, pointing out the specific claims.
Yes and I gave you the verse with chopping off the hands as well as God abhoring homosexuality and destroying the sexual deviants.
I will admit my brief mentioning of covering heads was referring to Christianity rather than the Quran, but the fact still remains that in Muslim countries people remain modest as per God's commands vis a vis the West.
Let's see a quick overview of some Quranic principles vis a vis Western principles
You take a tiny part of what I say, you run with it, you insult me and you ignore the main points of what is said because you know you can't prove it otherwise.
Listen to me carefully Wakas - the West does not follow Quranic principles in the Quran regarding Homosexuality and Women's clothing closer than most Muslim countries - will you please stop avoiding this obvious and respond???
And yes, I will re-iterate this - you reserve a special type of negative behaviour for anyone who challenges the Free Minds position, in your eyes that is anyone who observes a 'traditional' muslim interpretation of anything. Don't try and wriggle out of the act that you've made personal attacks against me. Even if you're convinced you're in the right, why wouldn't you give the other person in the debate the benefit of the doubt instead of labelling them as being deceitful?
I'm not going to disagree with you that the Quran does not explicitly mention covering heads, I was referring to Christianity on that one - but again you're avoiding the point - is the West closer to Muslim countries on this one?
severe punishment for insulting parents
This is your clearest error by far. The Quran verse you reference showed nothing of the sort. To be honest, it seems you gave up on arguing this one. One would have thought you would have honestly admitted your mistake.I posted the wrong verse and added the correct one in the post right after, why don't you have a look at that? It's in the Torah isn't it? Am I lying again Wakas? There must be something seriously wrong with me not to be able to 'correct' myself towards your position.
In case it is not obvious by now, TH and I were discussing Quran principles, not Torah, not Muslims, not Islam.
And the topic I started was something else - so what's your point here exactly? You went off topic just like everyone else - did I commit a thought crime by going off topic in a way you didn't like oh great and mighty Wakas? Give me a break - this is a complete joke - the way you've blown this thing out of proportion betrays your true feelings.
And that is just one half of what his beef is. The other has to do with going around saying 'it's just all so wrong, I feel it y'all' regarding the state of the forum and how it's helping people over to the dark side boatloads at a time.
Oh my goodness, talk about jumping to conclusions!!! When did I say ANYTHING of the sort? Why do you guys get so defensive all the time? I can't even ask reasonable questions without you getting angsty.
And I'm the one getting accused of creating straw men! rotfl yeahIf that was the case, then there would be no dissent but obviously when one is in the throes of passionate axe grinding, facts don't matter.
The axe that's being grinded is the immense issues you guys have with anything you consider 'traditional Islam' and the paraonoia is that anything that you consider challenges your beliefs is some kind of 'traditional conspiracy'.
With regards to megalomania, I don't think it's anything personal against me, I think it's anyone who may be perceived as espousing a traditional viewpoint.
I honestly thought these threads I was creating would have me seen as an Atheist rather than a traditional but that just goes to show how things are perceived here.
Here's a hint, we could ban you in a minute and delete all your posts if we were evil and if you were actually a threat and if we really wanted to shut you up. As happens in other places. The next step now that the passive aggressive mask is off is to up the ante and scream 'help i'm being oppressed by the stakeholders of the forum' in every post dealing with how dead and awful the forum is, how everyone is leaving for the arms of darkness and that the ones in the know are threatened by your amazing powers of deduction and observation but still let you opine...somehow, magically, mysteriously.
Threaten us right or go home.
Seriously, guys calm down. It's clear that I've hit a nerve to warrant these kinds of personal attacks in the last couple of days. Who said you were evil? I never even thought that about either of you. I have told you why I believe you react the way you do. Can't you see the way you've both pincered against me? Wow
Maybe I've answered a few of my own questions today
Please excuse me now while I run off to inform my Sunni friends on wahabiforever.net that stage one of operation bring down Free-Minds is complete - MWAHAHAAAH!
I'll get you Quran aloners! And your little dog too! > > >
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Oh my goodness, talk about jumping to conclusions!!! When did I say ANYTHING of the sort? Why do you guys get so defensive all the time? I can't even ask reasonable questions without you getting angsty.
And I'm the one getting accused of creating straw men!
Yes, you've never mentioned or even implied anything of the sort even repeatedly. We're all just crazy. Cool. And well done?The axe that's being grinded is the immense issues you guys have with anything you consider 'traditional Islam' and the paraonoia is that anything that you consider challenges your beliefs is some kind of 'traditional conspiracy'.
With regards to megalomania, I don't think it's anything personal against me, I think it's anyone who may be perceived as espousing a traditional viewpoint.
I honestly thought these threads I was creating would have me seen as an Atheist rather than a traditional but that just goes to show how things are perceived here.
Who are 'you guys'? I'm pretty live and let live myself. There's only one bringing the paranoia, and it's pretty evident to most if not you. All they have to do is read the thread. Atheist? Traditional? Look all I wanted was to discuss frickin' communes and you didn't even give me that. That's considered excessive cruelty.Seriously, guys calm down. It's clear that I've hit a nerve to warrant these kinds of personal attacks in the last couple of days. Who said you were evil? I never even thought that about either of you. I have told you why I believe you react the way you do. Can't you see the way you've both pincered against me? Wow
Lol calm down? Personal attacks? It's...astounding that you can play it like this when everything is kinda written down...? Did I say you said I was evil? Wakas I'm not sure of though, he may be with his whole food plant based diet. I don't like repeating myself but for your benefit...why can't you just discuss stuff as users, it's pretty common for two mods to respond to one thread, particularly when it's regarding the forum, it's happened countless times in the past without people losing their heads thinking they're out to get someone. So, yeah, really, chill with the hysterics? Kk?Maybe I've answered a few of my own questions today
I've always wanted to do that.Please excuse me now while I run off to inform my Sunni friends on wahabiforever.net that stage one of operation bring down Free-Minds is complete - MWAHAHAAAH!
I'll get you Quran aloners! And your little dog too! >D >D >D
I'm a cat person. I'll even help you get that dog. -
Yes, you've never mentioned or even implied anything of the sort even repeatedly. We're all just crazy. Cool. And well done?Who are 'you guys'? I'm pretty live and let live myself. There's only one bringing the paranoia, and it's pretty evident to most if not you. All they have to do is read the thread. Atheist? Traditional? Look all I wanted was to discuss frickin' communes and you didn't even give me that. That's considered excessive cruelty.Lol calm down? Personal attacks? It's...astounding that you can play it like this when everything is kinda written down...? Did I say you said I was evil? Wakas I'm not sure of though, he may be with his whole food plant based diet. I don't like repeating myself but for your benefit...why can't you just discuss stuff as users, it's pretty common for two mods to respond to one thread, particularly when it's regarding the forum, it's happened countless times in the past without people losing their heads thinking they're out to get someone. So, yeah, really, chill with the hysterics? Kk? I've always wanted to do that.I'm a cat person. I'll even help you get that dog.
Yes I am indeed a cruel and ruthless individual for not letting you discuss communes )
Stop playing dumb, 'traditional' has been slapped about at the drop of a hat.
And you guys (mods) are anything but 'live and let live' when it comes to most Muslims in the world.
You've behaved much worse than Wakas savage_carrot, and you jump to conlcusions all the time it's ridiculous. Take this thread for instance, do you want me to dredge up every time you've made faulty inferences?
You like cats over dogs eh? Sounds like a 'traditional' to me - burn her! Witch! Witch! ;D
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And the venom just keeps dripping. 'Wow'.
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Darn, it looks like my conspiracy to spread traditional muslim lies around this forum has failed '(...looks like it's time for phase 2
https//s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/b7/cb/db/b7cbdba9c123da7f9baab6fda2ab9f58.gif
FLY MY PRETTIES! FLY! AAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA! > > >
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Osman,I cannot rad the whole lot of nonasnwers inthis exchange, but I am sure of something, either you do not know the Qur'an nor are interested at all in what it does say and what it does not say or you are getting some satisfaction from utting it down nd disfigure it.
A pity.
Salaam
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Osman,I cannot rad the whole lot of nonasnwers inthis exchange, but I am sure of something, either you do not know the Qur'an nor are interested at all in what it does say and what it does not say or you are getting some satisfaction from utting it down nd disfigure it.
So I'm 'putting it down' by taking the verse around chopping hands of thieves literally and saying the Qur'an detests homosexuality?
http//30.media.tumblr.com/e2f57c656019882327212b53b32cb612/tumblr_musdmpZ5Lz1spo3yuo1_500.gif
Of course - I must be the unreasonable one here in the cult of Free-Minds.
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Perhaps this thread needs a bomb to be even more festive!!
http//emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/crazy-monkey/crazy-monkey-emoticon-109.gif?1292792408
Bombs? You sound like a traditional JavaLatte!
I suppose we better get back on topic - someome messaged me a few weeks back telling me about the various places some former members had gone to - I understand one does have a Quran alone facebook group that they maintain.
Obviously not everyone is going to make a dramatic one-time exit and many will just trail off but are there any farewell threads around where we can exactly what people have said their reasons are?
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I don't think there is such a hread. Usually when peole go away and say something do so individually aand the reason they give ar also very diverse.
On the other hand it is normal that people come and go. Tis like a village market place. People go there to exchange. Sometimes they find some times do not, or partially, so they water somewhere elso or they do it at home.
And then sometimes, new markets open somewhere else...
Life is movement and nothing is forever not even the bad things.
Salaam
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Salam,
The answer to your question is that it might be a potential path but it is not a conclusive last step.
perhaps the problem is in a misguided belief that by throwing away the Hadith we will all be headed on the same path in the same direction and at the same point in the road and hence be some enlightened group
Perhaps you are right, where did you come up with such a belief?
Discord has existed for a very long time, ever read debates between scholars of the same faith/creed/jurisprudence? Confusion is natural until you are enlightened with certainty, facts and knowledge.
I know many people who used to frequent this forum are now probably no longer Muslims by their own considerations
I guess it's difficult to digest that many people you know are "probably" not muslim but funnily our lives are not in a bubble of one or a few forums. it's true our life experiences help shape our understandings of the world but it is by no means a fact that if some have come across a certain path that it would potentially lead to a last step of leaving Islam.
I'm confident and comfortable in my ways/belief because of what I have read, researched and discovered.
Do you feel scared you might leave Islam because of your beliefs in Quran?
