Bird's meat vs. Pig's meat

Elke

Salam Marie, Taj, All

Marie, I really liked your former avatar ! Where did you get it or similar ones ? (Doesn't mean I don't like the new one though)
Absolutely in sink with your above post (as so often!)

Taj wrote

Lard is a by-product. No one would raise pigs for their lard and then discard their meat!

Must admit I don't get the connection...True in pork everything is used. Sometimes fat is used in soap (ok you don't normally eat it lol ) or used as an ingredient in biscuits or things you might buy and you won't even know about it.

Anyway, hope I don't shock you, but even though I don't eat pig meat (at least knowingly for the last 15 years), I sometimes happen to eat pigs fat - knowingly! When I get to Germany and in my family they have a pot of "schmalz"...I just can't resist.... wink

Elke

Zlatan

Peace elke, all

I sometimes happen to eat pigs fat - knowingly! When I get to Germany and in my family they have a pot of "schmalz"...I just can't resist.... wink

but tell me how do you know it is not forbiden based on the fact that it might be the fat of a pig that died of itself(maytatan)?

i also wonder for a long time now about the products which have, say3% or sometimes even less percentage of unknown ingridients, i mean which are not specified at the label of a product....

for example lecithin...at many products label simply says lecithin 3% however it may be, toward my humble knowledge, of animal origin as well as non-animal origin, like soya lecithin.....

i also have read that while preparing as simple products as bread, the producers add many different additives(true in small percentage or even promiles) of which some are of animal origin...

I wonder if eating them is the same as eating those animals?

I am not sure if i am making the right associations but according to one of the renderings of 2249 drinking as much as a mere sip out of the hand from the forbiden river might exclude someone from the right path...!?

best wishes, Zlatan

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Khalil,

I believe that every lesson is symbolic and not always literal, while others are both -literal and symbolic. As of now i believe that the verses which forbid the pig (not the whole, rather the meat and blood) are speaking litterally, because if we associate the pig with being a greed/earth food for thought ideal then it would not make sense for God to state 'Whoever finds himself forced out of need and without disobedience or animosity, then there is no sin upon him. God is Forgiving, Merciful.' (2173) When in need is when desires for self (greed) are conjured up the strongest, this would be the opposite of overcoming our desires (599) if we ingest an earthly/greedy mindset.

Yes, this is the dilemma I cannot reason through just yet.

However, I could be overlooking something that you see because the knowledge of an animal being dedicated to other than God is conjecture, unless you are to do it your self and how exactly do you dedicate an animal to God-surely not with mere words when actions speak.

Lets take another look at the verse and see if we can produce a possibility;

(2173) But He prohibited on you animals whose death was caused by suffocation or strangulation/dead, and the blood, and the pig's meat, and what is praised/declared to whom the sacrifice was made with it to other than God, so who was forced, not transgressing/corrupting , and nor transgressing/violating , so no sin/crime on him, that God (is) forgiving , most merciful .

I highlighted two crucial words that I hope the more skilled Arabic readers can verify for me. I think it might make all the difference. If it is true that it speaks in the past tense talking about those who, prior to THIS, WERE forced into "greedy passions", then once they hear and obey this instruction, they are "forgiven" by the Forgiving.

I see most of the translations say after the word FORCED, "by necessity". The literal translation I refer to many times does not have this phrase. Can someone confirm or deny if this phrase "by necessity" is there?

idolfree1 wrote
I think the symbolism may be getting clearer, I don't ever remember seeing this verse before.

(5621) And bird's meat from what they desire

The above verse is describing one of the gifts of the eternal garden.

It is interesting that we are toldnot to eat "pigs meat" and the opposite is that in the Garden we wil get "bird's meat".

Your mentioning of birds brought these verse's to my attention, interesting?

So do not linger with your eyes on what We have bestowed upon some couples from them, and do not grieve for them, and lower your wing for the believers.(158

A case of you are what you eat?

O Children of Adam, We have sent down for you garments to cover your wickedness, as well as feathers; and the garment of righteousness is the best. That is from God?s signs, perhaps they will remember. (726)

Good observations!! D

Quote
The pig is an animal that conjures up the EARTHLY/GREEDY mentality. They eat everything, they wallow in mud and feces, very earth based creatures(life of this world). In contrast, the bird is not "earth bound", but shows a good balance of "heaven and earth" (please excuse the use of the word heaven in this example). When things get difficult on the ground, when conditions are not right, the bird seeks refuge by going into the skies(skies represent the mind). Just like the symbolismof our journey to the God is climbing a mountain in the skies.

I agree, the pig (or how I've seen it depicted) appears to over indulge, while the bird seemingly takes the middle path, peace.

Regarding the sky as the mind, then would the sun be God/spirit (symobllically) and the earth be the projections of what the sky does with the light from God. Just a thought.

Yes, I have the Sun, being the LAMP in the sky (mind) as the Will of the God, it is constantly emmiting the life force(ruh/divine energy). The ancient Kemetens(egyptians) also used the sun to describe this SOLAR FORCE/ENERGY and called it "Ra" , very close to "RUH".

The earth is the human. The moon represents the mind/spirit, which is time conditioned, meaning there is a certain TIME for us to do certain things. I was unsure what you meant by the earths projections. Please elaborate. You can PM me if to as well.

Quote
Now look at this verse that links birds and mountains.

(2260) And when Abraham said "My Lord, show me how you revive the deads." He said "Did you not have faith?" he said "Yes/certainly, and but (for) my heart to (be) assured/secure (E)." He (Abraham) said "So take four from the birds, train them, then put on every mountain from them a portion, then call them, they come (to) you fast , and know that The God is glorious/mighty/powerful/dignified, wise/judicious."

Interesting to note is that four is often associated with the earth. Such as four corners, four seasons and even four restricted months (936) I will need to reflect to assemble these peices however.

Yes, please do this and let me know the results of your studies/work.

Quote
There is a common phrase used by people when they don't belive something will happen, they say "when pig's fly"

Interesting.

Yes, I thought so as well. Please let me know any further observations that you come across that either strengthen or weaken this argument.

khalil

Peace Idolfree

Lets take another look at the verse and see if we can produce a possibility;

(2173) But He prohibited on you animals whose death was caused by suffocation or strangulation/dead, and the blood, and the pig's meat, and what is praised/declared to whom the sacrifice was made with it to other than God, so who was forced, not transgressing/corrupting , and nor transgressing/violating , so no sin/crime on him, that God (is) forgiving , most merciful .

I highlighted two crucial words that I hope the more skilled Arabic readers can verify for me. I think it might make all the difference. If it is true that it speaks in the past tense talking about those who, prior to THIS, WERE forced into "greedy passions", then once they hear and obey this instruction, they are "forgiven" by the Forgiving.

I see most of the translations say after the word FORCED, "by necessity". The literal translation I refer to many times does not have this phrase. Can someone confirm or deny if this phrase "by necessity" is there?

I cannot verify this however my brother has learned a great deal of farsee (sp?) and I could get his view on this nonetheless. Right now we can look at the proceeding verses.

Surely, those who conceal what God has sent down of the Scripture (al-kitab), and they purchase with it a cheap price; they will not eat in their stomachs except the Fire, and God will not speak to them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them, and they will have a painful retribution.

Concealing 'al-kitab' in favour of an earthly gain (cheap price). Eating fire is a metaphor since many people who conceal 'al-kitab' in favour of material gains consume the same 'food' as me and you-physically.

These are the ones who have purchased straying for guidance, and retribution for forgiveness; they have no patience towards the Fire.

Retribution instead of forgiveness because they heared and did not obey.

This is because God has sent down the Scripture (al-kitab) with truth; and those who have disputed in the Scripture (al-kitab) are in far opposition.
Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but piety is one who believes in God and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Scripture, and the prophets, and he gives money out of love to the near relatives, and the orphans, and the needy and the wayfarer, and those who ask, and to free the slaves, and he holds the contact-method, and he contributes towards betterment; and those who keep their pledges when they make a pledge, and those who are patient in the face of good and bad and when in despair. These are the ones who have been truthful, and they are the righteous.

Piety is not based on outer observations?

This is just a quick (very quick-very late) glimpse and I do recall that the verse forbidding pigs is repeated three or four times through out the 'reading/quran' so it would be fair to look at each proceeding verse as well. I will add on to this at some time in the future (god willing).

Good observations!!

Dido!!!! shock

Yes, I have the Sun, being the LAMP in the sky (mind) as the Will of the God, it is constantly emmiting the life force(ruh/divine energy). The ancient Kemetens(egyptians) also used the sun to describe this SOLAR FORCE/ENERGY and called it "Ra" , very close to "RUH".

The earth is the human. The moon represents the mind/spirit, which is time conditioned, meaning there is a certain TIME for us to do certain things. I was unsure what you meant by the earths projections. Please elaborate.

A simpler way that I read somewhere else was an example of a projector, the light is God, the images are the minds and the blank screen is the world (egmind is th builder, physical is the result). Since God is one all energy is from God and is life/holy (hence no 'unholy spirit' in al-quran), but it is the image's our minds produce that mask this energy and the result is a stable or unstable enviroment around us one we do or don't inherit. That is what I meant, all though I do not feel I am being clear enough.

I meant that the sun is always there and never turns, rather earth turns away from the sun. The rays from the sun reach the earth and are always the same however due to a depleting ozone they may cause harm or due to cloudy sky's they may appear to not be there etc. I will have to think on the moons because I am still very unsure, however here is an interesting verse that I think is often overlooked

(911,2) By the sun and his splendour. By the moon as shefollows him. In Yusuf Ali's translation the moon is feminine and the sun is masculine although FM's does not follow this translation so I am in need of a translator as well. (

You can PM me if to as well.

Indeed I shall in due time (GW), I have some interesting news (dont get your hopes up-not too interesting) regarding some newly learned knowledge, as well I am sure you do.

Yes, please do this and let me know the results of your studies/work.

Indeed.

Yes, I thought so as well. Please let me know any further observations that you come across that either strengthen or weaken this argument.

A messy room is a pig sty and a corrupt police officer is a pig, as well overindulginf is pigging out.

I have a copy of 'The Penguin Dictionary of Symbols' and some of what it states I'll briefly sum up before I go to bed

The pig is almost a worldwide symbol for gluttony and greed
Pigs are depicted in the middle of the Tibetin wheel of life, primarily representing ignorance
Greek legend witch Circe turned men who pressed their suit upon her into swine
Ancient Egyptians depicted on their amulets Nut (sky goddess, eternal mother of stars) as a sow sucking her litter

What I have come to find (so far) is that this book is written from a christian conservative perspective so it has a particular bias, but take what you can from it.

Also the dove is used throughout christianity as a constructive symbol, but the raven/crow showed Adam's son how to barry his dead brother which may relate back to Moses asking God 'How he ressurects the dead' but ahhh.. I need sleep or else I will brainstorm without constraints and create a long rant. Btw St. Clement labeled pig as been spiritually forbidden, so the idea has been there sometime now.

oz

Elke

Salam Zlatan, All

Zlatan wrote

but tell me how do you know it is not forbiden based on the fact that it might be the fat of a pig that died of itself(maytatan)?

If you follow this reasoning, then you shouldn't even eat any meat, unless you chased and killed the animal yourself...
Anyway, I sure don't see the God as being that small-minded...Don't forget; in coran Allah tells us that if Hu was to punish us directly for every sin there wouldn't be a person left on earth...He is forgiver merciful to a degree that we humans can't even imagine.

The intention also is very important (even in human law). Exceeding the limits intentionnally and knowingly makes a difference for sure.

Elke

TAJ

Salaam Elke,

I would like to know your understanding of Ayah

And eat not of that on which the name of ALLAH has not been pronounced, for surely that is abomination. And certainly the evil ones inspire their friends with such thoughts that they may dispute with you. And if you obey them, you will indeed be of those who set up gods with ALLAH.

Taj

Zlatan

Peace Elke, all

Elke wrote

If you follow this reasoning, then you shouldn't even eat any meat, unless you chased and killed the animal yourself...

So what ?

Maybe its a test for us...your answer reminds much of those who were complaining to moses that they can not bear the same kind of food to eat...

261 And you said ?O Moses, we will not be patient to one type of food, so call for us your Lord that He may bring forth what the Earth grows of its beans, cucumbers, garlic, lentils, and onions.? He said ?Would you trade that which is lowly with that which is good?? Descend to Egypt, you will have in it what you have asked for. They were thus stricken with humiliation and disgrace...

Anyway, I sure don't see the God as being that small-minded...

you may be right, but if we folow such reasoning can we also say for Him being small-minded because He promised the punishement to the people for just killing or hurting the camel? and that was the case with the Salih`s people...dont you think its was a matter of principle, obeying or not obeying to The will of The God and not of the commandment being small or great in our subjective perception?

a whole nation punished for hurting a camel?

"and you think it is a minor issue, while with God it was great"

what we might consider a small sin can be a big one in the God`s eyes...we are not to teach The God but He is to teach us...

I am also reminding you of 2249 where such a thing as simple as drinking from a river has eliminated a body of the believers from the right path....

So when Saul set out with the soldiers, he said ?God will test you with a river, whoever drinks from it is not with me,

Don't forget; in coran Allah tells us that if Hu was to punish us directly for every sin there wouldn't be a person left on earth...He is forgiver merciful to a degree that we humans can't even imagine.The intention also is very important (even in human law). Exceeding the limits intentionnally and knowingly makes a difference for sure.

you may be well right, maybe my view was way too 2 dimensional... however i am investigating and pondering....

best wishes, Zlatan

TAJ

Salaam elke,

Don't forget; in coran Allah tells us that if Hu was to punish us directly for every sin there wouldn't be a person left on earth...He is forgiver merciful to a degree that we humans can't even imagine.

Yes, but you have to proceed with the Ayat , , and not stop at the middle! We are responsible for our intentional and conscious wrongdoings and Allah is only giving us a limited time here till the time for the Hesaab comes, later, in Judgment Day.

And think not that ALLAH is unaware of what the wrongdoers do. HE only gives them respite till the day on which their eyes will fixedly stare in horror;

And if ALLAH were to punish men for their wrongdoing, HE would not leave on the earth a living creature, but HE gives them respite till an appointed term; and when their term is come, they cannot remain behind a single hour, nor can they go ahead of it.

And if ALLAH were to punish people for what they do, HE would not leave a living creature on the surface of the earth; but HE gives them respite until an appointed term; and when their appointed time comes they find that ALLAH has all HIS servants well under HIS eyes.

The intention also is very important (even in human law). Exceeding the limits intentionnally and knowingly makes a difference for sure.

Have you seen the clip www.themeatrix.com that Elena posted earlier? Do you not see that what is going on now in the world is exceeding the limits, to say the least?

Taj

Elke

Taj

You wrote

Have you seen the clip www.themeatrix.com that Elena posted earlier? Do you not see that what is going on now in the world is exceeding the limits, to say the least?

I didn't yet follow the link..but anyway, where did you hear me say that what's going on in this world is not exceeding the limits??? x

You also wrote

I would like to know your understanding of Ayah

And eat not of that on which the name of ALLAH has not been pronounced

I do pronounce the Gods name on what I eat - and not only on meat and that is sufficient to me.

Also

We are responsible for our intentional and conscious wrongdoings

I answered that before you even asked... see

The intention also is very important (even in human law). Exceeding the limits intentionnally and knowingly makes a difference for sure.

Now I'm sorry if you don't like it, but if it is the pigs fat matter that makes you think I'm intentionnally doing wrong all I can say is, as Marie said before, what is clearly prohibited is the pigs meat. Making up regulation that don't exist and presenting it as being from Allah sounds like idol worship to me !

Maasalama, Elke

Elke

Peace Zlatan,

You wrote

He promised the punishement to the people for just killing or hurting the camel? and that was the case with the Salih`s people...dont you think its was a matter of principle, obeying or not obeying to The will of The God and not of the commandment being small or great in our subjective perception?

We don't share the same understanding of a verse, why then do you go from one thing I said concerning pigs meat and fat, to a quite bold generalisation??? When the God prohibits meat and not fat - it is not my subjectif perception, but what is written in the book - nothing to do with the camel of Salih's people where a clear command was issued by Allah and the people knowingly acted against the command. The camel itself was not the issue.

I would also like to add that if I do think coran is very often to be taken litterally, I very much appreciate the reading as being symbolic at the same time - permitting us to go further than just the basic laws and approach the spirit and the reason behind these laws.

Bye, Elke

TAJ

Salaam Elke,

Taj

You wrote

Have you seen the clip www.themeatrix.com that Elena posted earlier? Do you not see that what is going on now in the world is exceeding the limits, to say the least?

I didn't yet follow the link..but anyway, where did you hear me say that what's going on in this world is not exceeding the limits??? x

I knew you wouldn't disagree with that!

You also wrote

I would like to know your understanding of Ayah

And eat not of that on which the name of ALLAH has not been pronounced

I do pronounce the Gods name on what I eat - and not only on meat and that is sufficient to me.

The name of Allah should be mentioned not only when the meat is ready for you to eat but also way before that. It should be mentioned prior to that by another person as the Ayah says and clearly at a very critical moment. All Muslims (except "Quranists" I guess) say it is the moment of finishing (slaughter) the animal. I find myself agreeing that it has to be the moment of slaughter. The meat in non-Muslim countries is most of the time comes from electrified animals x in the name of a machine !

Now I'm sorry if you don't like it, but if it is the pigs fat matter that makes you think I'm intentionnally doing wrong all I can say is, as Marie said before, what is clearly prohibited is the pigs meat. Making up regulation that don't exist and presenting it as being from Allah sounds like idol worship to me !

Have you ever seen a Muslim raising a Khanzeer? And I would ask you and Marie, (once again) who (Muslim or non-Muslim) would raise pigs solely for their fat ?

And really, Elke, I apologize! What you eat is not my business. Afterall, it is only going to build your body not mine!

Taj

Zlatan

Peace all, Taj

The name of Allah should be mentioned not only when the meat is ready for you to eat but also way before that. It should be mentioned prior to that by another person as the Ayah says and clearly at a very critical moment. All Muslims (except "Quranists" I guess) say it is the moment of finishing (slaughter) the animal. I find myself agreeing that it has to be the moment of slaughter.

you are not alone in your belief that the mentioning of the name or not is something that happens or not way before we are to eat it and by another person...

imo its blatantly obvious from 6121

but i doubt its a time of slaughtering since there is not clear cut order for it(though there may be an indirect refference when The God is describing the hajj, but i dont think it could be infered that way)

based on 6138( i am wondering if there was a practice of dedicating animals to a different dieties by forbiding to mention the gods name upon(while riding)the animals and thus "the mentioning" or not mentioning the name would be an idiom for dedicating it or not to the others than the god...

6138 And they said ?These are livestock and crops that are restricted, and none shall eat from them except as we please,? by their claims; and livestock whose backs are forbidden, and livestock upon(while riding?) which they do not mention God?s name as invention against Him. He will recompense them for what they invented.

best wishes, Zlatan

Zlatan

Elke wrote

We don't share the same understanding of a verse, why then do you go from one thing I said concerning pigs meat and fat, to a quite bold generalisation??? When the God prohibits meat and not fat - it is not my subjectif perception,

Elke i have never objected to your not considering pig fat forbiden but i have asked you how do you know the fat is not from a pig that died of itself(maytatan)? cause what died of itself is also forbiden

but what is written in the book - nothing to do with the camel of Salih's people where a clear command was issued by Allah and the people knowingly acted against the command. The camel itself was not the issue.

maytatan is also forbiden and that is writen in the book and may be considered equal to hurting the camel

best wishes, Zlatan

marie

Peace Taj, all

Have you ever seen a Muslim raising a Khanzeer? And I would ask you and Marie, (once again) who (Muslim or non-Muslim) would raise pigs solely for their fat Question

To raise the pig is another subject. All what I can say, there is no verse which forbids to raise it. The meat of the pig is only forbiden for us.
If the fat is useful, there is no harm to use it. Our Lord is Wise and Knowledgeable.

We shouldn't forbid or authorise something not forbiden or not authorised by the God.

Green_Leaves

Greetings,

If the fat is useful, there is no harm to use it.

But isn't the fat part of the pig, kind of like saying the meat is forbidden but we can eat its marrow...? (Not that I am arguing with you, but just asking).

On a side note, please stay away from all kinds of fat...the last thing you want is to find out you don't fit in your favorite outfit anymore and it takes such long time to loose weight.

marie

Peace all,

What is "al-anAAam / the livestock" in the light of the reading

O you who believe, honour your contracts. Made lawful for you are all the animals of the livestock (al-anAAami), except that which is being recited to you, and what you are not allowed to hunt of the game while you are under restriction. God decrees as He pleases.
And from the livestock (al-anAAami) are those for burden, and also for clothing. Eat from what God has provided you and do not follow the footsteps of the devil; he is to you a clear enemy.
Eight pairs from the lambs two, and from the goats two; Say ?Is it the two males that He forbade or the two females, or what the womb of the two females bore? Inform me if you are truthful!?
And from the camels two, and from the cattle two; Say ?Is it the two males that He forbade or the two females, or what the womb of the two females bore? Or were you witnesses when God ordered you with this?? Who is more wicked than one who invents lies about God to misguide the people without knowledge. God does not guide the wicked people.

The meat of the pig represents one of the nine retrictions according the verse 53.

The pig doesn't belong to the same group of the eight pairs of the livestock quoted in the reading. He does not ruminate like them. He is omnivore like us ( evil,

NB The pig belongs to the family of the "suid?s" which includes the sanglier, the p?cari and the phacoch?re.

I think other animals which have commun points with the pig; their meat is not good to eat. Consequently, the pig is as an indication or a limit for us concerning the land-game.

What do you think?

Thanks

TAJ

Salaam Marie and All,

Peace all,

What is "al-anAAam / the livestock" in the light of the reading

O you who believe, honour your contracts. Made lawful for you are all the animals of the livestock (al-anAAami), except that which is being recited to you, and what you are not allowed to hunt of the game while you are under restriction. God decrees as He pleases.
And from the livestock (al-anAAami) are those for burden, and also for clothing. Eat from what God has provided you and do not follow the footsteps of the devil; he is to you a clear enemy.
Eight pairs from the lambs two, and from the goats two; Say ?Is it the two males that He forbade or the two females, or what the womb of the two females bore? Inform me if you are truthful!?
And from the camels two, and from the cattle two; Say ?Is it the two males that He forbade or the two females, or what the womb of the two females bore? Or were you witnesses when God ordered you with this?? Who is more wicked than one who invents lies about God to misguide the people without knowledge. God does not guide the wicked people.

The meat of the pig represents one of the nine retrictions according the verse 53.

The pig doesn't belong to the same group of the eight pairs of the livestock quoted in the reading. He does not ruminate like them. He is omnivore like us ( evil,

NB The pig belongs to the family of the "suid?s" which includes the sanglier, the p?cari and the phacoch?re.

I think other animals which have commun points with the pig; their meat is not good to eat. Consequently, the pig is as an indication or a limit for us concerning the land-game.

What do you think?

Thanks

Subhaana Allah!

Only this morning I was thinking to write exactly as what you have written here, to tell you that pigs are not even one of Al An3am, and that pigs are omnivores, and we are forbidden to eat omnivores.
I am happy that you and I are thinking in the same direction

And I just remembered, although not so very sure where I learned this, that the pig, if hungry, would eat its own piglets! But I want to check it further still.

Taj

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Khalil,

I cannot verify this however my brother has learned a great deal of farsee (sp?) and I could get his view on this nonetheless. Right now we can look at the proceeding verses.

Surely, those who conceal what God has sent down of the Scripture (al-kitab), and they purchase with it a cheap price; they will not eat in their stomachs except the Fire, and God will not speak to them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them, and they will have a painful retribution.

Concealing 'al-kitab' in favour of an earthly gain (cheap price). Eating fire is a metaphor since many people who conceal 'al-kitab' in favour of material gains consume the same 'food' as me and you-physically.

These are the ones who have purchased straying for guidance, and retribution for forgiveness; they have no patience towards the Fire.

Retribution instead of forgiveness because they heared and did not obey.

This is because God has sent down the Scripture (al-kitab) with truth; and those who have disputed in the Scripture (al-kitab) are in far opposition.
Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but piety is one who believes in God and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Scripture, and the prophets, and he gives money out of love to the near relatives, and the orphans, and the needy and the wayfarer, and those who ask, and to free the slaves, and he holds the contact-method, and he contributes towards betterment; and those who keep their pledges when they make a pledge, and those who are patient in the face of good and bad and when in despair. These are the ones who have been truthful, and they are the righteous.

Piety is not based on outer observations?

This is just a quick (very quick-very late) glimpse and I do recall that the verse forbidding pigs is repeated three or four times through out the 'reading/quran' so it would be fair to look at each proceeding verse as well. I will add on to this at some time in the future (god willing).

Good job

A simpler way that I read somewhere else was an example of a projector, the light is God, the images are the minds and the blank screen is the world (egmind is th builder, physical is the result). Since God is one all energy is from God and is life/holy (hence no 'unholy spirit' in al-quran), but it is the image's our minds produce that mask this energy and the result is a stable or unstable enviroment around us one we do or don't inherit. That is what I meant, all though I do not feel I am being clear enough.

I understand you VERY CLEARLY.

I meant that the sun is always there and never turns, rather earth turns away from the sun. The rays from the sun reach the earth and are always the same however due to a depleting ozone they may cause harm or due to cloudy sky's they may appear to not be there etc. I will have to think on the moons because I am still very unsure, however here is an interesting verse that I think is often overlooked

(911,2) By the sun and his splendour. By the moon as shefollows him. In Yusuf Ali's translation the moon is feminine and the sun is masculine although FM's does not follow this translation so I am in need of a translator as well.

Yes! The God is showing us the allegory clearly. Yes, the sun is always there shining, always giving not expecting anything in return. The earth rotates towards and away from the sun. Regarding the moon, it is TIME CONDITIONED, just like the human female and her menstrual cycle. We cannot look directly at the Sun, but we can reflect on its light at night.

So if we take the allegory as the WILL of the Good(sun) and the spirit of man(moon) and apply them to male and female, we can see that the male can always give seed, but the female cannoot always recieve the seed based on TIMINGS. The God is telling us that there are TIMES for everyting, we must get in tune with the cycles of Life.

It was reported that NO ANIMALS were found along with the human bodies in this great Tsunami that just occured. Animals appear to be in tune.

Indeed I shall in due time (GW), I have some interesting news (dont get your hopes up-not too interesting) regarding some newly learned knowledge, as well I am sure you do.

Too late! I'm excited!

A messy room is a pig sty and a corrupt police officer is a pig, as well overindulginf is pigging out.

I have a copy of 'The Penguin Dictionary of Symbols' and some of what it states I'll briefly sum up before I go to bed

The pig is almost a worldwide symbol for gluttony and greed
Pigs are depicted in the middle of the Tibetin wheel of life, primarily representing ignorance
Greek legend witch Circe turned men who pressed their suit upon her into swine
Ancient Egyptians depicted on their amulets Nut (sky goddess, eternal mother of stars) as a sow sucking her litter

What I have come to find (so far) is that this book is written from a christian conservative perspective so it has a particular bias, but take what you can from it.

Thanks. I also have a book on symbols, I forget who it is by, but I need to check.

Also the dove is used throughout christianity as a constructive symbol, but the raven/crow showed Adam's son how to barry his dead brother which may relate back to Moses asking God 'How he ressurects the dead' but ahhh.. I need sleep or else I will brainstorm without constraints and create a long rant. Btw St. Clement labeled pig as been spiritually forbidden, so the idea has been there sometime now.

Yes, the bird symbolises the spiritual thoughts/actions because they have the proper balance between "heaven and earth". They have a better "view".

Zlatan

Taj, marie, anyone knowlegeable in arabic...what is significance/ meaning of the words/expresion "bihi" in "ma uhilla li gayrillahi bihi" and "ma uhilla bihi li gayrillah"- in the verses on food prohibition ?

It seems to me nobody is translating these words in the verses in question though they might change the meaning of the verse

best wishes, Zlatan

TAJ

Salaam Zlatan,

Taj, marie, anyone knowlegeable in arabic...what is significance/ meaning of the words/expresion "bihi" in "ma uhilla li gayrillahi bihi" and "ma uhilla bihi li gayrillah"- in the verses on food prohibition ?

It seems to me nobody is translating these words in the verses in question though they might change the meaning of the verse

best wishes, Zlatan

I am surprised that it is not translated!
But could you be wondering about the order in the combined word "Bihi" in both Ayat that it could possibly be signifying a difference, since they look exactly the same?
I will provide the meaning and the reason why the order is different as soon as I get further explanation from my Arabic professor, In Shaaa Allah.

Taj