Bird's meat vs. Pig's meat

unknownuser

Peace be upon you all,

I think the symbolism may be getting clearer, I don't ever remember seeing this verse before.

(5621) And bird's meat from what they desire

The above verse is describing one of the gifts of the eternal garden.

It is interesting that we are toldnot to eat "pigs meat" and the opposite is that in the Garden we wil get "bird's meat".

The pig is an animal that conjures up the EARTHLY/GREEDY mentality. They eat everything, they wallow in mud and feces, very earth based creatures(life of this world). In contrast, the bird is not "earth bound", but shows a good balance of "heaven and earth" (please excuse the use of the word heaven in this example). When things get difficult on the ground, when conditions are not right, the bird seeks refuge by going into the skies(skies represent the mind). Just like the symbolismof our journey to the God is climbing a mountain in the skies.

Now look at this verse that links birds and mountains.

(2260) And when Abraham said "My Lord, show me how you revive the deads." He said "Did you not have faith?" he said "Yes/certainly, and but (for) my heart to (be) assured/secure (E)." He (Abraham) said "So take four from the birds, train them, then put on every mountain from them a portion, then call them, they come (to) you fast , and know that The God is glorious/mighty/powerful/dignified, wise/judicious."

So in conclusion, I take these both to be symbolic lessons. We should eat from the meat of birds, not pigs D

There is a common phrase used by people when they don't belive something will happen, they say "when pig's fly" wink

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

http//img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-12/906195/heruoverset.jpg

This is an image from thousands of years ago that depicts the same type of symbolism, the spiritual bird defeating the earthly pig, it is known as the battloe of Heru over Set (Greeks say Horus over Seth).

marie

There is a common phrase used by people when they don't belive something will happen, they say "when pig's fly"

or when the hens will have teeth lol

shamsul-arefin

peace to u,

sorry to say, but I dont see the link between pig and bird. It still seems to me that forbidding pigs meat for such reason is ilogical..

peace

unknownuser

Peace be upon you SA,

sorry to say, but I dont see the link between pig and bird.

No need to be sorry, your position is yours and will be respected.

It still seems to me that forbidding pigs meat for such reason is ilogical..

No, I am not stating this as a case to forbid pigs, I am saying that it is used as SYMBOLISM

Don't eat PIG- don't be earthly/greedy/excessive
Eat bird - Be light as a feather able to fly above all obstacles(emotions).

I am stating that the LITERAL understanding is incorrect.

Please tell me if you agree to that understanding.

Green_Leaves

Peace,

That is a very interesting observation idolfree1. Especially the part that pigs are greedy in terms that they are always looking for a source of food or a place to just relax carefree (usually the dirt ponds).

We see the birds cleanse themselves, simply sit (see the pigeons near the train stations) and at eat certain times. Also, add to this the fact that birds - be it a turkey or a pigeon make their own homes. For example, a pigeon gathers feathers, pieces of paper, sticks, etc on its own. This shows that the birds are not lazy bums. Take pigs on the other hand, they just lay anywhere they want. Only if a farmer makes a barn for them, they live therein, but unlike birds the pig does not do an ounce to make a home for its family or itself. It just rests in dirt carefree after eating all day long.

Of course, I've several articles where pople have claimed pigs are the cleanest animals. Now, I'll say to that "true, when pigs fly!"

TheNabi

Salaam,

Perhaps pigs are associated with greed because they are hard to keep, like grooming and tending to their needs, which I hear would be hard in enviroments like the mid-east.

Joe

TAJ

salaam Kyle,

And not only birds have wings and delicious flesh. Take locust for example! The female?s flesh was the most adored by our grandparents? generation and before! They say that there is nothing like boiled Mukn (the local name of female locust). Now nobody eats it because of the pesticides that is applied to the plants that the locust feed on. So the doctors say it is not safe anymore to eat it. What remains is only the tasteful memory!

Taj

AMS377

The pig is an animal that conjures up the EARTHLY/GREEDY mentality.

Why do we defame pigs so much? To justify its prohibition.

Pig stereotypes are given by men. Pigs are not dirty animals. In the wild, Pigs are actually quite clean. They are observed to defecate/urinate in seprate areas from where they reside.

Pigs do wallow in the mud. This is because they have no sweat glands. The mud cools their skin. What is so wrong with this? After all, Allah told us that we can use the soil to cleanse ourelves via Tayammum (56).

Pigs conjure up negative stereotypes because man places them in small pens with overcrowding. Thus, they are not able to maintain seperate bathroom and living areas and are forced wallow in mud that, due to the pen and overcrowding, may contain feces. However, this is counter to their natural behavior.

Don't eat PIG- don't be earthly/greedy/excessive
Eat bird - Be light as a feather able to fly above all obstacles(emotions).

I am stating that the LITERAL understanding is incorrect.

IMO, this is a stretch. There are two types of verses in Quran literal and allegorical (37). The prohibition of eating swine is an ayat-e-muhkamaat (literal).

shamsul-arefin

Peace be upon you SA,

sorry to say, but I dont see the link between pig and bird.

No need to be sorry, your position is yours and will be respected.

It still seems to me that forbidding pigs meat for such reason is ilogical..

No, I am not stating this as a case to forbid pigs, I am saying that it is used as SYMBOLISM

Don't eat PIG- don't be earthly/greedy/excessive
Eat bird - Be light as a feather able to fly above all obstacles(emotions).

I am stating that the LITERAL understanding is incorrect.

Please tell me if you agree to that understanding.

peace to u,

I can understand the simbolism and it sounds good. But interms of its validity I think Quran is quite straight. Further more if I am not mistaken, someone gave an alternative translation such as "rotten meat" or "not fresh" , which sounds more logical. The whole europian ppl eats porc but I find muslims to be more greedy and dishonest than them. It proves that the consumption pig mean doesnt cause such behavior.

I think would go along the "rotten meant" choice untill somthing better gets revealed..

peace

Elena

Peace,
I think I understand that it is not related to eating, it is an image, don't be like pigs, be like birds.

Sebs

Peace be upon you SA,

sorry to say, but I dont see the link between pig and bird.

No need to be sorry, your position is yours and will be respected.

It still seems to me that forbidding pigs meat for such reason is ilogical..

No, I am not stating this as a case to forbid pigs, I am saying that it is used as SYMBOLISM

Don't eat PIG- don't be earthly/greedy/excessive
Eat bird - Be light as a feather able to fly above all obstacles(emotions).

I am stating that the LITERAL understanding is incorrect.

Please tell me if you agree to that understanding.

peace to u,

I can understand the simbolism and it sounds good. But interms of its validity I think Quran is quite straight. Further more if I am not mistaken, someone gave an alternative translation such as "rotten meat" or "not fresh" , which sounds more logical. The whole europian ppl eats porc but I find muslims to be more greedy and dishonest than them. It proves that the consumption pig mean doesnt cause such behavior.

I think would go along the "rotten meant" choice untill somthing better gets revealed..

peace

Peace be upon you,

But isnt there a verse that says that you can eat it if your are starving and that if you eat without knowing its pork..God would Forgive you??

If it is rotten meat, then can you help me on this one?

Thanks, Peace

Sebs

AMS377

Just because we cannot come up with a logical reason for the prohibition of pork, does not warrant extreme interpretations.

What is so difficult about the following muhkamaat (literal) verse
Prohibited for you are animals that die of themselves, blood, the meat of pigs, and animals dedicated to other than GOD.
We cannot consume
(1)carrion
(2)blood
(3)pig
(4)an animal dedicated to other than GOD

Idolfree1,
Why are items 1,2, and 4 taken as LITERAL, while 3 is deemed SYMBOLIC? Quran says a verse either LITERAL or ALLEGORICAL, but not BOTH (37).

marie

Peace Sebs, all,

If it is rotten meat, then can you help me on this one?

The following verse contains a similar sentence than "lahma alkhinzir/the flesh of the swine" in 2173

And for the Jews We have forbidden all that have claws; and from the cattle and the sheep We forbade their fat except what is attached to the back, or entrails, or mixed with bone. That is a punishment for their rebellion, and We are truthful.

WaAAala allatheena hadooharramna kulla thee thufurinwamina albaqari wa alghanami harramnaAAalayhim shuhoomahuma illa ma hamalatthuhooruhuma awi alhawayaaw ma ikhtalata biAAathmin thalikajazaynahum bibaghyihim wa-inna lasadiqoona

shuhoomahuma/their fat implies

shuhoom albaqari = the fat of the "baqari/cattle"

and

shuhoom alghanami = the fat of the "ghanami /sheep"

albaqari and alghanami are not adjectives for "fat".

If "ghanam, baqar and khinzeer" are adjectives for fat and flesh respectively , we should read

allahm alkhinzeer
alshshahm albaqar
alshshahm alghanam.

These sentences are grammatically incorrect.

The article "al" in this sentence "lahm alkhinzeer" specifies the flesh of something ? The flesh of what? the response is the flesh of the swine.

1614 illustrates well the other position where the word after the flesh is its adjective

And He it is Who has made the sea subservient. You eat from it tender fresh meat and take from it gems which you may wear. And on that very sea you see the ships roaming through the waves so that you might seek of His bounty and be appreciative.
Wahuwa allathee sakhkhara albahralita/kuloo minhu lahman tariyyan watastakhrijoominhu hilyatan talbasoonaha watara alfulkamawakhira feehi walitabtaghoo min fadlihiwalaAAallakum tashkuroona

See also 3512

According the context we can say

lahma khinzeerin (6145)
shahm baqar
shahm ghanam

that doesn't imply that khinzeer, baqar and ghanam are adjectives for fat and meat in the same way than tayr/birds for meat in 5621

And meat of birds that they desire.
Wa lahmi tayrin mimmayashtahoona
Say ?I do not find in what is inspired to me forbidden except that it be already dead, or blood, or the meat of pig, for it is foul; or what is corruptly dedicated to other than God.? Whoever is forced without seeking disobedience or transgression, then your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.

Qul la ajidu feema oohiyailayya muharraman AAala taAAimin yatAAamuhuilla an yakoona maytatan aw daman masfoohan aw lahma khinzeerin fa-innahu rijsun aw fisqan ohilla lighayri Allahibihi famani idturra ghayra baghin wala AAadinfa-inna rabbaka ghafoorun raheemun

Hope that helps

savage_carrot

Peace sister Marie,

Very revealing clarifications...Thank u for posting them! It put a lot into perspective.

Nadia

marie

Peace sister Marie,

Very revealing clarifications...Thank u for posting them! It put a lot into perspective.

Nadia

You are most welcome

Peace

shamsul-arefin

peace to all,

nothing happens without a reason. forbidding pig meat just like that doesnt sound reasonable. It sounds like God have a personal issue with pig..lol.

peace

Peace

Peace,
I'm sure that in the future we will figure out why God has prohibited the flesh of swine. Just because we do not understand the reason behind something at this point in time, doesn't mean that we will never be able to grasp the reasoning behind it. What about those scientific verses in the Quran? Did people 1400 years ago understand those verses the same way we understand them now? I doubt it. However, I believe they must have strove to understand it by delving into the wonders of the universe, and perhaps this is why they advanced so rapidly in science. Maybe if we do our own research on Pigs we will find a reason behind the prohibition. Maybe its just a test? On the other hand it could simply be that this verse is mistranslated, I suppose the arabic speakers on this site would have to let us know.

As to this part of the verse being allegorical, I don't think that is the case as the surrounding context seems literal. Furthermore, allegorical verses can be interpreted in many different ways, thus I think God would point out to us that this was allegorical especially if its a prohibition(after all God would know that this argument was going to take place). I think we have to watch out what we label as allegorical and literal, remember that none of us knows the truth, over every knowledgeable one, is God the most knowledgeable.

Peace

marie

Peace all,

Say ?I do not find in what is inspired to me forbidden except that it be already dead, or blood, or the meat of pig, for it is foul; or what is corruptly dedicated to other than God.? Whoever is forced without seeking disobedience or transgression, then your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.

Qul la ajidu feema oohiyailayya muharraman AAala taAAimin yatAAamuhuilla an yakoona maytatan aw daman masfoohan aw lahma khinzeerin fa-innahu rijsun aw fisqan ohilla lighayri Allahibihi famani idturra ghayra baghin wala AAadinfa-inna rabbaka ghafoorun raheemun

The adjective foul/rijsun concerns both dead, blood and flesh swine.

Here other examples

tools of affliction / Rijsun 590,

foul / Rijsun 6 145, 9 95

affliction / Rijsun 7 171

unknownuser

Peace be upon you AMS377,

Why do we defame pigs so much? To justify its prohibition.

WHo is defaming the pig? The pig is only following the nature it was created to obey. But when we speak of SYMBOLISM, we have to look at how a certain thing ACTS so we can draw the proper understanding of the SYMBOLISM. Let me ask you, was the God Himself defaming pigs and apes when He said that he turned certain people into "apes" and "swine"?

Pig stereotypes are given by men. Pigs are not dirty animals. In the wild, Pigs are actually quite clean. They are observed to defecate/urinate in seprate areas from where they reside.

Pigs do wallow in the mud. This is because they have no sweat glands. The mud cools their skin. What is so wrong with this? After all, Allah told us that we can use the soil to cleanse ourelves via Tayammum (56).

Pigs conjure up negative stereotypes because man places them in small pens with overcrowding. Thus, they are not able to maintain seperate bathroom and living areas and are forced wallow in mud that, due to the pen and overcrowding, may contain feces. However, this is counter to their natural behavior.

So in 560, the Go dwas giving a compliment to the people by changing them into Pigs?

It is the NATURE of the pig that is SYMBOLICALLY being given to us, not that actual animal itself. There is nothing wrong with the pig, it is following its nature so that it can be a SIGN for us all, as do ALL ANIMALS.

(454) And in your creation, and what He scatters/distributes from a walker/creeper/crawler (are) evidences/signs to a nation being sure/certain.

Quote
Don't eat PIG- don't be earthly/greedy/excessive
Eat bird - Be light as a feather able to fly above all obstacles(emotions).

I am stating that the LITERAL understanding is incorrect.

IMO, this is a stretch. There are two types of verses in Quran literal and allegorical (37). The prohibition of eating swine is an ayat-e-muhkamaat (literal).

Yes, and I take this verse regarding food prohibitions as being allegorical, ALL FOODS are permitted except what we prohibit upon ourselves (Pigs should be such a food because it is unhealthy)