Can a women lead a congregational prayer with men and women mixed behind her?
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Bimaa can mean 'bi-anna' or 'bi-kaifa' as well as ' ma'a alladhee.' The first is its non-conditional meaning.
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I will not take anything away from the legitimacy of either meaning.
I'm not sure I follow. Can you expand and clarify what you mean by 1 and 2? Thanks.
Have I understood this correctly
bi-anna = with/by that ?
bi-kaifa = with/by how ?
ma'a alladhee = what he/who ? -
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Huruf,
I do not believe that this is the best practice and can lead to men being distracted in prayer. Allah tells us to protect ourselves from harm and evil (taqwaa). Men are also the qawwaamoon of women not the other way around according to the Qur'an and should be the principal actors in places of worship. I believe that only if a man or men have no idea of how to pray and there is a more knowledgeable woman there that she can lead them in Salaat. And she should not do it from in front of them, but from beside them at a reasonable distance so as not to go against the Quran's command for men to not touch or freely associate with women in spaces dedicated for worship. This is not a statement that anyone is better than anyone else because of gender. It is about the fact that we all have roles to play and that we must respect our differences. Women need to respect the fact that men tend to see women in a sexual way more easily than women do with men and that this can lead to undue thoughts and desires during worship. We must respect the roles that Allah has told us to play. This is our way to paradise and, God-willingly, social justice on earth.
Aside from these points I do not think that anyone should be leading anyone in prayer, especially not from in front of them. Leading should only occur if someone has no idea of what to do and there is someone more knowledgeable there that he/she can copy, or if they would like to start and finish at the same time.
Otherwise this leading prayer stuff is totally UNQURANIC and cannot be found in the Qur'an! So why hold onto it as Quranists?
Believers don't seek rank. We seek to fulfill our duties to Allah and to seek His pleasure, graces, mercy and paradise.
Salam
This clinging to the sexual urges of males as a free pass to illegitimate privileges, is pure bullshit.
If they cannot mix with women without becoming animals unable to control themselves, then they should be kept where they do not cause trouble to other peopple. Restraining women on that count is awfully cheeky and tyranical.
Women control themselves, except that they choose not tocontrol themselves. Coming to us with the nonsense of the male urges is insulting.
If that is true they should not be burdened with any positions of responsibility because oviously as soon as they see a woman they would be dangerous idiots.Males do "loose" control of themselves in these two instances and conditions
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When they do not have any moral principles or fear God and therefore anything goes.
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When they think they can get away with it.
I am old enough now to have known many, many, many men, and I do not buy the bullshit bout their urges. My father did not buy it, my brothers do not buy it, my granfather did not buy it, my uncles do not buy it, my male cousins do not buy it, my male friends do not buy it, my well known male acquaintances do not buy it... But there are good reasons for people who cling like if it were their own skin to this joker of sexuality, that enables them to keep women sujected to their spoilt brat's privileges.
If anybody wants to play roles, go ahead, but do ot come with the nonsense that they are God's will. It is very much offending.
Women bear and deliver children and suckle them but that means nothing, what means is that they put up with delusions of grown up males.
It is disgusting.
Salaam
This clinging to the sexual urges of males as a free pass to illegitimate privileges, is pure bullshit.
If they cannot mix with women without becoming animals unable to control themselves, then they should be kept where they do not cause trouble to other peopple. Restraining women on that count is awfully cheeky and tyranical.
Women control themselves, except that they choose not tocontrol themselves. Coming to us with the nonsense of the male urges is insulting.
If that were true they should not be burdened with any positions of responsibility because obviously as soon as they see a woman they would be dangerous idiots.Males do "loose" control of themselves in these two instances and conditions
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When they do not have any moral principles or fear God and therefore anything goes.
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When they think they can get away with it.
I am old enough now to have known many, many, many men, and I do not buy the nonsense about their urges. My father did not buy it, my brothers do not buy it, my granfather did not buy it, my uncles do not buy it, my male cousins do not buy it, my male friends do not buy it, my well known male acquaintances do not buy it... But there are good reasons for people who cling like if it were their own skin to this joker of sexuality, that enables them to keep women sujected to their spoilt brat's privileges.
If anybody wants to play roles of his or her invention, go ahead, but do not come with the nonsense that they are God's will. It is very much offending.
Women bear and deliver children and suckle them but that means nothing, what means is that they put up with the inmature delusions of grown up males. It is disgusting that grown up males pretend to be a burden for women as if they were sucking babies. They should be ashamed.
Salaam
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Bender,
I mean the timed ritual Salaat and the bowing and standing it entails, as mentioned in the Quran, as well as the Quranic recitation and preferred du'as of God's prophets and messengers (saas) and the righteous (raa) cited within the Quran. Not just any du'a. Our timed salaat is ritual prayer when it comes to its meaning of prayer.
Also let me add that Mu'jam Mufradaat Al-faadhul-Quran specifically mentions that Salaat is an action that involves, invoking, blessing, praising, hallowing, glorifying and asking for forgiveness.
So babies crying for food being Salaat...not so much.
SalaamHi As-Salaatayn,
I did not used the word salaat, but prayer (also for the babies).
I thought the topic was about prayer, but maybe I misunderstood.Salaam,
Bender -
Couldn't agree more with Huruf. This is Islamic brainwashing at its finest. To blame women for who they are just because some perverts can't seem to control themselves. If you cannot control yourself while being with fellow humans, you should be locked up. You have no right to blame your weakness on others. Like a rapist blaming the victim for him not being able to stop himself from raping her. "UH NO ERMMMM.... SHE WAS A WOMEN AND I GOT SO EXCITED I COULDN'T CONTROL MYSELF. SHE SHOULD BE LOCKED UP AT HOME SO SHE DOESN'T CAUSE ME TO RAPE HER AGAIN."
The very idea of blaming the victim for the oppressor not being able to control himself is what lead to the religion of Islam being misogynistic. It is why women have their rights taken away. They cannot go to a mosque to perform their rituals, cannot perform simple day to day tasks such as going shopping, handing over money, dealing with customers etc. The solution is to ban them from mosques and public places and put them in black sacks and restrict them to their home. Birth machines in black sacks.
Being raised a Muslim, I use to believe these lame excuses. I genuinely believed that because I couldn't control myself, women had to pray behind me. I am grateful to the Creator for saving me from that cult.
Religion= made by men for men. Religion is anti-human. Religion is the worst thing that happened to humanity. 1.7 billion poor souls are currently suffering from this 7th century death cult.
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I do not believe that this is the best practice and can lead to men being distracted in prayer.
Even if the woman leading the prayer is of their grandma's age?
Do you truly believe all men think just about sex every time they see a woman?If they cannot mix with women without becoming animals unable to control themselves, then they should be kept where they do not cause trouble to other peopple. Restraining women on that count is awfully cheeky and tyranical.
In that case, they need rehab.
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Huruf,
First I want to stop talking about "privileges." We are not talking about privileges, we are talking about duties. Stop trying to obtain privileges and start trying to fulfill your duties. When we all get on that page, we will be on the right page.
Secondly, there is no need to exaggerate the issue and say that men become like animals or wild beasts. Your tendency to insult men here, not recognize their strengths and your inability to understand men or be sensitive to their gender tendencies is sexist and grossly arrogant on your part. Disdain for men and ambition for rank, power and privilege are NOT the traits of the faithful. Men have their weaknesses and women have theirs. Our faults were not equally doled out. We also have strengths and weaknesses both as genders and as individuals. Allah knows these things. We should be respectful of each other and of Allah's commands.
Invalid777,
How is not leading prayer or being able to pray in mixed company the position of a victim? How is having separate spaces for women and for men so that they can pray without worrying about thinking lustfully victimizing? Where women are unjustly harmed, or not given services owed to all human beings then that is victimization. When women are not valued for real skills that can help the community then that is ungodly and unjust discrimination. But is anyone forbidding women from praying or worshiping their Lord? Is anyone saying that they are not allowed to help whenever they can? When did Allah say that leading the prayer is a privilege? When did Allah say that the prayer must even be led?!!! That's the real kicker! Allah doesn't even say that the prayer needs to be led, yet Huruf wants to latch on to an unquranic Sunni/Shia practice in order to feel as equally privileged as she feels men are.
Even as we consider the irrelevance of Huruf's postulation, let us consider that the Quran tells us after Mary (saas) is born 'The male is not like the female' 336. So how about we let Allah tell us what our roles and duties are and we do our best to not seek arrogance, privilege or glory but to fulfill what Allah wants from us so we can get the real glory and privilege in paradise?
Reel,
It is much more prevalent in the man to think about sex when he sees a woman than vice-versa. I think this is established scientific fact. It doesn't mean that he become a ravenous animal. But it does imply more inner struggle. As far as being grandma's age, what if the man standing behind her is also grandma's age? I see what you are trying to say but situations can arise that easy cancel out the 'safe' situations that you are insinuating. That is why I said that I do not believe that it is the best practice.
Invalid777 and Huruf,
Women should be highly appreciated for the fact that (in general) they bear and suckle children but how about we come to appreciate them as humble servants of Allah seeking to fulfill their duty to Him in every way, instead of as "baby machines" as Invalid777 said. Whether you hate religion or not the Quran is a book of religion. God's religion. And whether you like it or not religion is the backbone and skeleton of civilization. Aside from that, I never insinuated anything about the color of clothing a woman should wear although I do take a stance on not wearing form revealing clothing. With that said I disagree with a lot that our fellow Muslims do but I will not attack them, rather I will try to understand them and learn to disagree with them in an intelligent and tolerant fashion, as I should do with all other religious beliefs and practices I disagree with.
Salaam
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Wakas,
bi-anna = 'in that' literally and more eloquently 'because'
bi-kaifa = 'with how' or 'in how' and more eloquently 'due to how'
ma'a alladhee = 'with what' or 'with that which'
If there are other subtleties that I remember later I will try to post them.
Salaam
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Huruf,
First I want to stop talking about "privileges." We are not talking about privileges, we are talking about duties. Stop trying to obtain privileges and start trying to fulfill your duties. When we all get on that page, we will be on the right page.
Secondly, there is no need to exaggerate the issue and say that men become like animals or wild beasts. Your tendency to insult men here, not recognize their strengths and your inability to understand men or be sensitive to their gender tendencies is sexist and grossly arrogant on your part. Disdain for men and ambition for rank, power and privilege are NOT the traits of the faithful. Men have their weaknesses and women have theirs. Our faults were not equally doled out. We also have strengths and weaknesses both as genders and as individuals. Allah knows these things. We should be respectful of each other and of Allah's commands.
Invalid777,
How is not leading prayer or being able to pray in mixed company the position of a victim? How is having separate spaces for women and for men so that they can pray without worrying about thinking lustfully victimizing? Where women are unjustly harmed, or not given services owed to all human beings then that is victimization. When women are not valued for real skills that can help the community then that is ungodly and unjust discrimination. But is anyone forbidding women from praying or worshiping their Lord? Is anyone saying that they are not allowed to help whenever they can? When did Allah say that leading the prayer is a privilege? When did Allah say that the prayer must even be led?!!! That's the real kicker! Allah doesn't even say that the prayer needs to be led, yet Huruf wants to latch on to an unquranic Sunni/Shia practice in order to feel as equally privileged as she feels men are.
Even as we consider the irrelevance of Huruf's postulation, let us consider that the Quran tells us after Mary (saas) is born 'The male is not like the female' 336. So how about we let Allah tell us what our roles and duties are and we do our best to not seek arrogance, privilege or glory but to fulfill what Allah wants from us so we can get the real glory and privilege in paradise?
Reel,
It is much more prevalent in the man to think about sex when he sees a woman than vice-versa. I think this is established scientific fact. It doesn't mean that he become a ravenous animal. But it does imply more inner struggle. As far as being grandma's age, what if the man standing behind her is also grandma's age? I see what you are trying to say but situations can arise that easy cancel out the 'safe' situations that you are insinuating. That is why I said that I do not believe that it is the best practice.
Invalid777 and Huruf,
Women should be highly appreciated for the fact that (in general) they bear and suckle children but how about we come to appreciate them as humble servants of Allah seeking to fulfill their duty to Him in every way, instead of as "baby machines" as Invalid777 said. Whether you hate religion or not the Quran is a book of religion. God's religion. And whether you like it or not religion is the backbone and skeleton of civilization. Aside from that, I never insinuated anything about the color of clothing a woman should wear although I do take a stance on not wearing form revealing clothing. With that said I disagree with a lot that our fellow Muslims do but I will not attack them, rather I will try to understand them and learn to disagree with them in an intelligent and tolerant fashion, as I should do with all other religious beliefs and practices I disagree with.
Salaam
It is useless to debate with you. You do not seem to care about the Qur'an, just your own opinions which are really cruel to men, classifying them as beings uncapable of having any self-comand. The fact that to impose on women extra duties to pay for that lack of self-command that you you resort to call the nonsense yyou invent scientific and speak about estra rligious duties of your invention for women is not virtuous at all. But that is your business.
At any rate you do not bring any qura'nic or rational arguments that would warrant any further exchange on this. A repetition of groundless assertions does not make those assertions any truer.
Salaam
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Reel,
It is much more prevalent in the man to think about sex when he sees a woman than vice-versa. I think this is established scientific fact. It doesn't mean that he become a ravenous animal. But it does imply more inner struggle. As far as being grandma's age, what if the man standing behind her is also grandma's age? I see what you are trying to say but situations can arise that easy cancel out the 'safe' situations that you are insinuating. That is why I said that I do not believe that it is the best practice.
I studied with men in school and university. God knows, how they got A's when the exams were based on lectures. After all, we women in the class were the distraction huh?
But show me a paper that says men during prayer think about sex when they see a woman. What I know is that two Zoroastrian men thought like that and they were no men of science. One claimed of inventing some weird thing that could correct stories from chinese whisper, but never left any evidence of how he did so and thus, no one was able to apply it.At present, however, this is what I have got from research https//www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-sexual-continuum/201112/how-often-do-men-and-women-think-about-sex
Yet if men have such impure mind, by your own logic, it would be best to ban them from praying in groups. Do note that among men, there can also be homosexuals.
You still allow hadiths to guide your mind and that's pretty sad.By the way, we know from Sodom and Gomorrah that straight men can have sexual thought about people of their own gender. So it seems that the man leading the congregational prayer can also be distraction for men behind him.
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(Reminder)
"O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other. Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)."
(Quran 4913)"The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil they observe regular prayers, practise regular charity, and obey Allah and His Messenger. On them will Allah pour His mercy for Allah is Exalted in power, Wise."
(Quran 971)God knows best
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I studied with men in school and university. God knows, how they got A's when the exams were based on lectures. After all, we women in the class were the distraction huh?
But show me a paper that says men during prayer think about sex when they see a woman. What I know is that two Zoroastrian men thought like that and they were no men of science. One claimed of inventing some weird thing that could correct stories from chinese whisper, but never left any evidence of how he did so and thus, no one was able to apply it.At present, however, this is what I have got from research https//www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-sexual-continuum/201112/how-often-do-men-and-women-think-about-sex
Yet if men have such impure mind, by your own logic, it would be best to ban them from praying in groups. Do note that among men, there can also be homosexuals.
You still allow hadiths to guide your mind and that's pretty sad.By the way, we know from Sodom and Gomorrah that straight men can have sexual thought about people of their own gender. So it seems that the man leading the congregational prayer can also be distraction for men behind him.
Regarding this temptation thing, indeed, the kind of "landscape" before the eyes of those men that would not be in the first row of the prayers, if the have any homosexual atom, would be really trying for their morals. rotfl rotfl rotfl For them women would be much better.
Salaam
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peace Anwar,
I've read your post several times but I still dont follow. You seem to be saying its non-conditional but the options you gave for "bima" still make the statement conditional.
434 says...
the men are the qawwamoon of women
because / due to how / with what
God preferred/bestowed SOME of them over others (masculine plural)
AND
because / due to how / with what
they spent of their moneyPoints to note
Not all men, some. And due to what they spent.
e.g. if a man does not spend on women the man cannot be considered qawwamoon.Ergo, conditional.
Wakas,
bi-anna = 'in that' literally and more eloquently 'because'
bi-kaifa = 'with how' or 'in how' and more eloquently 'due to how'
ma'a alladhee = 'with what' or 'with that which'
If there are other subtleties that I remember later I will try to post them.
Salaam
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Ba3dh bi-ba3adh or ba3dh 3ala ba3dh does not mean 'some' it means 'each other.' It distinguishes one distinct group from another distinct group.
Also none of them are conditional, they are factual. I would translate faddala as 'graced' or 'blessed'
Salaam.
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Religion (Merriam Webster)
1
a the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion>
b (1) the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2
a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3
archaic scrupulous conformity conscientiousness
4
a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faithDeen
Discipline (include law), Duty, Dues, Judgement.
It's meaning of religion is in it's meaning of discipline and duty.
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Ba3dh bi-ba3adh or ba3dh 3ala ba3dh does not mean 'some' it means 'each other.' It distinguishes one distinct group from another distinct group.
Also none of them are conditional, they are factual. I would translate faddala as 'graced' or 'blessed'
Salaam.
That is correct.
Salaam
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Religion (Merriam Webster)
1
a the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion>
b (1) the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2
a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3
archaic scrupulous conformity conscientiousness
4
a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faithDeen
Discipline (include law), Duty, Dues, Judgement.
It's meaning of religion is in it's meaning of discipline and duty.
I can understand that you think the quran is a book of discipline and duty.
But I do not understand Gods discipline and duty. God has no religion, people do but not God. -
God's religion means the Religion from God or sanctioned and promoted by God. Possessives work like that grammatically.
Salaam
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peace Anwar,
434 does not say "Ba3dh bi-ba3adh" or "ba3dh 3ala ba3dh", it says "baAAdahum AAala baAAdin", thus your translation would seemingly be
the men are the qawwamoon of women
because / due to how / with what
God graced each other (of) them* over others*
AND
because / due to how / with what
they spent of their money*masculine plural
Perhaps you can give us your explanation of what is being said here, with specific reference as to whom the masculine plurals are referring to.
And answer this simple question can a man be considered qawwamoon if he does not spend on the women yes/no?
Ba3dh bi-ba3adh or ba3dh 3ala ba3dh does not mean 'some' it means 'each other.' It distinguishes one distinct group from another distinct group.
Also none of them are conditional, they are factual. I would translate faddala as 'graced' or 'blessed'
Salaam.
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This is exctly the same construction as in several other cases i the Qur'an and in grammars it is perfectly defined and described, and it is reciprocal clause. why in this particular 4.34 SOME translators mke a mess of it, I do not know, but there is no ambiguity in it. It is the very same clause which appears repeatedly in the Qur'an and always translated as reciprocal.
Salaam
