Can a women lead a congregational prayer with men and women mixed behind her?

[Bender]

Because you can't dance? I can respect that.

I never had the chance to show my moves >(

[Bender]

.0

the quran already lays out the foundations concerning all of that, we dont need feminism

it says in the quran dont insult each other, dont be mean to one another
it says dress moderately
it says dont commit criminal acts, dont oppress
it says be fair

when we start having a gynocentric or a man centric view on issues, we just end up wasting time, because the issues we talk about are already taken care of in a 1400 years old book, some say older

now i see people complain they are not free because they cant roam around naked without being criticized
not here, but on the internet

whatever goes beyond the simple rules of the quran that applies to everyone (yes dressing modestly also applies to women and it is verily possible to gauge what modest clothing is - one just has to look at modern separate class experiment where all boys and all girl classes each perform better than mixed classes)

it's time we stopped viewing women as eternal victims especially because someone like me would tell a woman dressed half naked that she is not dressed modestly

if a handsome man dresses the same way women leer at him just as much
most men i see outside dress very modestly and loose, most women wear tight clothes

i keep seeing women complain about men having peeks, you cant expect to change the biology of men unless you pump them full of estrogens

Hi,

So what are you going to do with women who do not dress modest (of course your definition of modest)?
Not every one believes in the quran, and not every one who believes in the quran understands the quran in the way you do.
If you think they are sinning, then it is for sure their problem and not yours.

And the earth is a big place, do not go to places were there is sinning according to you or look the other side, let them sin, just keep your self out of sinning.
And if you think they go beyond what is reasonable then you can call the law and let the law of that country judge. And if you think that the law of that country is inferior then immigrate to a better place or become a politician so you can change the law.

Salaam,
Bender

[Zulf]

.0

the quran already lays out the foundations concerning all of that, we dont need feminism

it says in the quran dont insult each other, dont be mean to one another
it says dress moderately
it says dont commit criminal acts, dont oppress
it says be fair

when we start having a gynocentric or a man centric view on issues, we just end up wasting time, because the issues we talk about are already taken care of in a 1400 years old book, some say older

now i see people complain they are not free because they cant roam around naked without being criticized
not here, but on the internet

whatever goes beyond the simple rules of the quran that applies to everyone (yes dressing modestly also applies to women and it is verily possible to gauge what modest clothing is - one just has to look at modern separate class experiment where all boys and all girl classes each perform better than mixed classes)

it's time we stopped viewing women as eternal victims especially because someone like me would tell a woman dressed half naked that she is not dressed modestly

if a handsome man dresses the same way women leer at him just as much
most men i see outside dress very modestly and loose, most women wear tight clothes

i keep seeing women complain about men having peeks, you cant expect to change the biology of men unless you pump them full of estrogens

I understand what you are saying.
I must say however, that 'feminism' can mean very different things, just like 'Islam' mean very different things to different people.
Some feminists are extremists, but other feminists are just normal people who what to be treated fairly. We must also keep this in mind. We can not throw the word in the garbage, because there are different things attached to the word. We have to deal with each situation separately.

If someone calls 'working for equal treatment at work' as feminism, then so be it. Let's understand what the meaning the user is trying to convey. Otherwise we can dismiss all things Islam as hand chopping, burqa covering and wife beating. Not very fair to all Muslims in the world.

To tell you frankly, I don't like the word 'feminism' either. However, that's irrelevant, I have to understand how it is used when it is used, and I have to understand it's history and why it has come about. It can be used in different ways. No need to always look at extremists. Otherwise it means that you don't agree women should be treated fairly and get equal pay for equal work when you say there is no need for feminism. See what I'm getting at?

So, can women lead prayer? Of course. At least in the general sense. The Rabb hasn't forbidden it. Perhaps we forbid it in our sects, but that's another story. What we humans do and think, changes over time.

Pax

[hawk99]

Congregational prayer ?!

Never heard of it.

Peace hicham9 As-Salaatayn , What about 4/102.

Back to the subject, oppression is a two edged phenomenon, the oppressed
suffer the loss of rights while the oppressor suffers from the mental gymnastics
necessary to justify the enforced subjugation (violence, ostracism etc.).

If we free our women both sexes would benefit. Women could reach their full
potential and we brothers would have a strong ally by our sides and would no longer
need to justify our false supremacy by inordinate means. Therefore the freedom
of women is in the males best interest. So let the women lead the prayer brothers
and don't be afraid.

peace

[hicham9]

Peace hicham9, What about 4/102.

Conciliation Slh (&#1607
establishment/resumption of harmonious relationship.
The conciliator being the messenger of ALLH.

[huruf]

Peace hicham9 As-Salaatayn , What about 4/102.

Back to the subject, oppression is a two edged phenomenon, the oppressed
suffer the loss of rights while the oppressor suffers from the mental gymnastics
necessary to justify the enforced subjugation (violence, ostracism etc.).

If we free our women both sexes would benefit. Women could reach their full
potential and we brothers would have a strong ally by our sides and would no longer
need to justify our false supremacy by inordinate means. Therefore the freedom
of women is in the males best interest. So let the women lead the prayer brothers
and don't be afraid.

peace

You are a happy mann Hawk. Try to infect us with that.

Salaam

[Zulf]

So let the women lead the prayer brothers and don't be afraid.

Exactly!

[hawk99]

Conciliation Slh (&#1607
establishment/resumption of harmonious relationship.
The conciliator being the messenger of ALLH.

hicham9 if you have time could you give your translation of 4/102?

[Yosemite]

Hi,

So what are you going to do with women who do not dress modest (of course your definition of modest)?

my definition of modest is based on observation of human behaviours
education would be the solution to empty rebellions without a cause

Not every one believes in the quran, and not every one who believes in the quran understands the quran in the way you do.
If you think they are sinning, then it is for sure their problem and not yours.

you're playing the moral relativist card, it's as if you're implying you can turn the verse that says murdering people is forbidden into something different
when the quran says it is better to dress modestly, it says it is better to dress modestly

i never talked about sins, sins is a very abstract concept hard to gauge in the real world, because it is associated with some kind of mythical god that punishes you on earth if you commit this or that action that is considered a sin

when i read the quran, what i read is your actions bring forth consequences, and the consequences can range from being positive for you to negative for you

And the earth is a big place, do not go to places were there is sinning according to you or look the other side, let them sin, just keep your self out of sinning.

what you're saying is to let uneducated people have influence over others
i find it interesting that you have this kind of mentality, it very much looks like you only believe in a one way street freedom system, where people can actually BEHAVE however they like to, but i somehow CAN NOT offer a critic of that behaviour
should i remain silent when stuff like folsom street fair happens? doesn't the quran say something about people who remain inactive, or conceal the truth?

And if you think they go beyond what is reasonable then you can call the law and let the law of that country judge. And if you think that the law of that country is inferior then immigrate to a better place or become a politician so you can change the law.

Salaam,
Bender

what call the law? the arab elite have tried to impose their laws on the arab people, the arab world ends up getting destroyed in mere months by americans

the quran isn't a book only for individuals, it's for the group as well as for the individual

in the USA for example, and the western world, freedom has slowly turned into irresponsible freedom, where people reject their own personal responsibilities for their actions

it's like you believe in this type of freedom

[Yosemite]

I understand what you are saying.
I must say however, that 'feminism' can mean very different things, just like 'Islam' mean very different things to different people.
Some feminists are extremists, but other feminists are just normal people who what to be treated fairly. We must also keep this in mind. We can not throw the word in the garbage, because there are different things attached to the word. We have to deal with each situation separately.

If someone calls 'working for equal treatment at work' as feminism, then so be it. Let's understand what the meaning the user is trying to convey. Otherwise we can dismiss all things Islam as hand chopping, burqa covering and wife beating. Not very fair to all Muslims in the world.

To tell you frankly, I don't like the word 'feminism' either. However, that's irrelevant, I have to understand how it is used when it is used, and I have to understand it's history and why it has come about. It can be used in different ways. No need to always look at extremists. Otherwise it means that you don't agree women should be treated fairly and get equal pay for equal work when you say there is no need for feminism. See what I'm getting at?

So, can women lead prayer? Of course. At least in the general sense. The Rabb hasn't forbidden it. Perhaps we forbid it in our sects, but that's another story. What we humans do and think, changes over time.

Pax

when the solution is so simple there really is no reason to carry dead weight from the west

first we talk about how women can lead congressional prayers, then we're told that dressing modestly is "subjective", meaning a woman in bikini could lead the congressional prayer, then we start seeing people bring up examples of subsaharan african tribes who didn't evolve beyond hunter/gatherer days, and how their women are so free and can dress so freely, and somehow we all have to live like them all of a sudden because freedom

it's quite simple, in advanced societies, men who dress with tight clothes and who are handsome, they get leered at, when women dress in a similar fashion, they get leered that, there i just figured out the limit for "modest clothing" at the very least in a society that can actually read the quran

now, the problem, how do we actually make these rules i talked about the reality?

we have to make it happen ourselves, hence why individually, we are useless if the ideas are just in our heads and can't be materialized

i see so much data manipulation from feminists concerning statistics, who are given a massive echo boost from the president of the USA himself

then what happens to people who point out the skewed data, sometimes outright false and invented information, from feminists? they're labelled women hater, and the discussion ends there

[huruf]

but i somehow CAN NOT offer a critic of that behaviour
should i remain silent when stuff like folsom street fair happens? doesn't the quran say something about people who remain inactive, or conceal the truth?

That is what you enjoin yourself. Women are subjected to humilliations and lack of freedom inn many countries in spite of the fact that you say that there shouldn't be any feminnism because all problems got solved 1.400 years ago. But if in spite of all problems having been solved millions upon millions of women continue to be mistreated and humilliated, wht yousuggest is do nothing. Because as far as I know femiism exists precisely in order to bring justice to women and thenn you say

"i somehow CAN NOT offer a critic of that behaviour
should i remain silent when stuff like folsom street fair happens? doesn't the quran say something about people who remain inactive, or conceal the truth?"

You seem to contradict yourself since you blame those that attempt to get done what the Qur'an intended to do 1.400 and obviously has not been done.

Salaam

[Yosemite]

That is what you enjoin yourself.

do you have a crystal ball in which you can tell how people lead their lives? what kind of freedom do i enjoy that women don't enjoy, or even didn't enjoy? do i need to remind you that before the sexual "revolution" of the 60's, men had a strong duty to marry, maintain the marriage, and provide for a whole family? and if they didn't, they'd be shamed very strongly? and that women would actually shame men who didn't want to be drafted for the wars? and that after the feminist sexual "revolution", men simply decided to drop that responsibility especially because of said revolution?

today, 70% of men aged from 18 to 30 years old are not married
this percentage used to be 20% before that revolution

what you call "freedom that men enjoyed since forever", that's actually a lie

Women are subjected to humilliations and lack of freedom inn many countries in spite of the fact that you say that there shouldn't be any feminnism because all problems got solved 1.400 years ago.

and men are also subject to humiliation and restriction of "freedom" in many countries, yet somehow you keep throwing that meme around that men are the sole oppressor everywhere at any point in time
this is just ridiculous and you know it

But if in spite of all problems having been solved millions upon millions of women continue to be mistreated and humilliated, wht yousuggest is do nothing. Because as far as I know femiism exists precisely in order to bring justice to women and thenn you say

"i somehow CAN NOT offer a critic of that behaviour
should i remain silent when stuff like folsom street fair happens? doesn't the quran say something about people who remain inactive, or conceal the truth?"

and millions upon millions of men also are mistreated, wew lad such a revelation

You seem to contradict yourself since you blame those that attempt to get done what the Qur'an intended to do 1.400 and obviously has not been done.

Salaam

feminists do not intend to do what is in the quran, as evidenced by all the lies spouted by feminists these days

we could say that in the USA, men are all jumping out of the window, and feminists want all women to do the same in the name of "equality"

by the way if we do not define "equality", and "freedom", the discussion will be that more confusing and difficult to have

[hawk99]

Peace Yosemite feminism in the U.S. is a reaction to sexism.

it's quite simple, in advanced societies

How do you determine what an advance society is?

peace

[huruf]

do you have a crystal ball in which you can tell how people lead their lives? what kind of freedom do i enjoy that women don't enjoy, or even didn't enjoy? do i need to remind you that before the sexual "revolution" of the 60's, men had a strong duty to marry, maintain the marriage, and provide for a whole family? and if they didn't, they'd be shamed very strongly? and that women would actually shame men who didn't want to be drafted for the wars? and that after the feminist sexual "revolution", men simply decided to drop that responsibility especially because of said revolution?

today, 70% of men aged from 18 to 30 years old are not married
this percentage used to be 20% before that revolution

what you call "freedom that men enjoyed since forever", that's actually a lie
and men are also subject to humiliation and restriction of "freedom" in many countries, yet somehow you keep throwing that meme around that men are the sole oppressor everywhere at any point in time
this is just ridiculous and you know it

and millions upon millions of men also are mistreated, wew lad such a revelation

You seem to contradict yourself since you blame those that attempt to get done what the Qur'an intended to do 1.400 and obviously has not been done.

Salaam

feminists do not intend to do what is in the quran, as evidenced by all the lies spouted by feminists these days

we could say that in the USA, men are all jumping out of the window, and feminists want all women to do the same in the name of "equality"

by the way if we do not define "equality", and "freedom", the discussion will be that more confusing and difficult to have

Never mind, I can recognize when reasoning is completely useless. So I leave you to enjoy at leisure your lalala land fairy tales of poor men persecuted by ever so evil witches .

[Zulf]

first we talk about how women can lead congressional prayers, then we're told that dressing modestly is "subjective", meaning a woman in bikini could lead the congressional prayer,

These two questions below are connected

1. How on Earth are leading prayer connected to dress??? In e.g. Protestant churches in Europe, priests, both women and men, are wearing a uniform, i.e. a robe/garb that is quite loose and covering of the body. It seems you are saying that letting women lead prayers is just the first step in them totally taking over and running around naked. Churchy people who are against female priests aren't so because of dress. So why are they? And why would women not lead prayers, even in proper dress?

2. Do you really think that allowing women to lead prayer would lead to that they eventually would do so in bikini? Is this the real reason you think women should not lead prayer?

[good_logic]

Peace Zulf.

I hope you do not mind. I allowed myself a smile( may be a giggle!) reading your post.
What is wrong with a woman leading the congregation if all are enjoying a day at the seaside,swimming together, women in bikinis ,men in swimming trunks, and children building castles by the side and the noon prayer is due?

On a serious note, what has gender got to do with praying? Does it matter who is qualified/chosen to lead the congregation?

I fail to understanding our logic! We create complications for both sexes,due to our arrogance and ignorance.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

[hawk99]

2. Do you really think that allowing women to lead prayer would lead to that they eventually would do so in bikini? Is this the real reason you think women should not lead prayer?

nope

Does it matter who is qualified/chosen to lead the congregation?

I fail to understanding our logic! We create complications for both sexes, due to our arrogance and ignorance.

and fear and insecurity

You are a happy man Hawk. Try to infect us with that.

I am indeed happy, and have gained a measure of peace (submission, acceptance)
by Allah's leave.

peace

[Yosemite]

Peace Yosemite feminism in the U.S. is a reaction to sexism.

what kind of sexism? give examples of "sexism" in the western world
are you going to say that, for example, because a vast majority of women who try to pass the ranger's test in the american military fail it, it is sexism?

How do you determine what an advance society is?

peace

quite simple, who comes up with technological advancement? who comes up with high rise buildings? who comes up with rockets?

not all cultures are equal, deal with it

[Yosemite]

Never mind, I can recognize when reasoning is completely useless. So I leave you to enjoy at leisure your lalala land fairy tales of poor men persecuted by ever so evil witches .

you didn't even write a single coherent sentence in your previous post to me

[Yosemite]

These two questions below are connected

1. How on Earth are leading prayer connected to dress??? In e.g. Protestant churches in Europe, priests, both women and men, are wearing a uniform, i.e. a robe/garb that is quite loose and covering of the body. It seems you are saying that letting women lead prayers is just the first step in them totally taking over and running around naked. Churchy people who are against female priests aren't so because of dress. So why are they? And why would women not lead prayers, even in proper dress?

you're arguing with your self, you said it yourself "it seems you said this and that"
i did not say this and that, i was very clear in my post, i remember reading opinions here that stated such situations, i recalled them as i was writing the post

i'm not saying this is what will happen, but everytime this kind of subject comes up, there's always this idea that it ought to be possible and that there can't be anyone to offer criticism based on very empirical observation of the world around us

2. Do you really think that allowing women to lead prayer would lead to that they eventually would do so in bikini? Is this the real reason you think women should not lead prayer?

one again arguing with yourself here, i never said such things in this thread, and saying that the "modest dress" is something subjective always ends up with someone going this far