Anger, Wrath, Revenge, and God

truthseeker11

Peace good logic,

Imagine a mother that gave birth to a child,cared ,loved,shaped the early years and developed that child. Imagine ,for some rebellious /other factors,the child completely cuts off the ties with the mother and takes on other "mothers" for advice, relationship, support, friendship,help ...etc.
Because the mother loves the child ,she is always waiting patiently and hopes the child returns to her,

The difference is the child has been made to forget who the mother is (by the mother), and is being expected to remember who the mother is after losing memory.

but it hurts and saddens her deeply that her own child has chosen others and cut off all ties with his natural mother.

Why would it hurt and sadden if the mother knows no other mothers exist, that it is just a temporary fantasy her child is indulging in, and that the child will soon come around after regaining lost memory? It wouldn't make any sense for the mother to be hurt and saddened.

How does this feel? The mums and dads of this world will understand clearly what it means!

Sorry, the way you presented the analogy, it is a completely wrong/false analogy as I just showed. Especially when the mother knows this is just a temporary fantasy her child is indulging in, and soon the child will regain lost memory, remember who the mother is, realize that no other mothers actually exist, and come around.

Of course the words anger,wrath,revenge may cross the mind of such heartless act of "shirk",but deep down love,care,forgiveness and compassion are the ultimate feelings that will prevail if the child returns to the "mother".

Firstly, anger, wrath, revenge will NEVER cross the mind of the "mother" because of reasons I just gave above.

Secondly, the feelings of love, care, forgiveness and compassion will ALWAYS be there.

According to the quran, however, forgiveness will NEVER prevail even when the "child" returns (448, 4116), thus the child might be made to suffer for eternity.

Peace

good_logic

Peace truthseeker11.

Thank you for your attempt. Let us see

1- You say,quoteThe difference is the child has been made to forget who the mother is (by the mother), and is being expected to remember who the mother is after losing memory.

You are wrong. The instinct is there since the child was born and the message to remind kept coming.

2- You say,quoteWhy would it hurt and sadden if the mother knows no other mothers exist, that it is just a temporary fantasy her child is indulging in, and that the child will soon come around after regaining lost memory? It wouldn't make any sense for the mother to be hurt and saddened.

Wrong again ,who is being tested? Surely not the mother. Hence the child must be unaware of the fantasy!

3-You say,quote Sorry, the way you presented the analogy, it is a completely wrong/false analogy as I just showed. Especially when the mother knows this is just a temporary fantasy her child is indulging in, and soon the child will regain lost memory, remember who the mother is, realize that no other mothers actually exist, and come around.

What you showed me is simply wrong if you reflect and ponder the message again .

4- Finally you say, quote According to the quran, however, forgiveness will NEVER prevail even when the "child" returns (448, 4116), thus the child might be made to suffer for eternity.

Forgiveness is for everything including "shirk" if one repents before they die. Do I need to give you the many verses that state this?
Please ponder the message again.
GOD bless you.
Peace

truthseeker11

Peace good logic,

Peace truthseeker11.

Thank you for your attempt. Let us see

1- You say,quoteThe difference is the child has been made to forget who the mother is (by the mother), and is being expected to remember who the mother is after losing memory.

You are wrong. The instinct is there since the child was born and the message to remind kept coming.

Losing memory is a huge disadvantage despite instinct and messages. This is indisputable and not the child's fault. Does not justify no forgiveness leading to eternal suffering.

2- You say,quoteWhy would it hurt and sadden if the mother knows no other mothers exist, that it is just a temporary fantasy her child is indulging in, and that the child will soon come around after regaining lost memory? It wouldn't make any sense for the mother to be hurt and saddened.

Wrong again ,who is being tested? Surely not the mother. Hence the child must be unaware of the fantasy!

Huh? Are you ok? Strawman fallacy.

3-You say,quote Sorry, the way you presented the analogy, it is a completely wrong/false analogy as I just showed. Especially when the mother knows this is just a temporary fantasy her child is indulging in, and soon the child will regain lost memory, remember who the mother is, realize that no other mothers actually exist, and come around.

What you showed me is simply wrong if you reflect and ponder the message again.

Logical fallacy of circular reasoning.

4- Finally you say, quote According to the quran, however, forgiveness will NEVER prevail even when the "child" returns (448, 4116), thus the child might be made to suffer for eternity.

Forgiveness is for everything including "shirk" if one repents before they die. Do I need to give you the many verses that state this?

Logical fallacy of red herring.

My humble advice, please learn about logical fallacies.

Peace

good_logic

Peace brother.

Logical fallacies, circular reasoning and strawman fallacies? Sorry not interested.
I will stick with Qoran, thank you.
May the Lord save us from all fallacies and guide us to the truth.

GOD bless you.
Peace

Timotheus

Peace brother.

Logical fallacies, circular reasoning and strawman fallacies? Sorry not interested.
I will stick with Qoran, thank you.
May the Lord save us from all fallacies and guide us to the truth.

GOD bless you.
Peace

Peace,

Alhamdullilah, well said. The greatest fallacy is following ones own ego instead of the truth revealed to them, the message preserved by God, an instrucion to those who revere there Lord, even when alone on their own. May our lord guide the sincere to his truth, and protect us from the evil of our own desires, and purify us according to his mercy,

Peace

A_Submitter

Salam

Why wouldn't God forgive someone who committed shirk before death?

What about those who were brainwashed as children by sectarians, and followed their parents' views, then received the message and repented?

If what you say - that God won't forgive a sin as grave as shirk if you repent before death - then what is the point of repenting and submitting to God alone if one is still going to Hell?

You must be wrong Truthseeker11. I'm not promoting shirk of course, but maybe you're confusing with another verse in which God won't accept repentance.

390 Those who have rejected after their belief, then increased in rejection, their repentance will not be accepted, they are the strayers.

Good logic, can you provide me with those verses? Thank you.

Salam

truthseeker11

Salam Submitter,

You are committing the logical fallacy of Strawman.

If what you say - that God won't forgive a sin as grave as shirk if you repent before death

Where and when did I say the red part?

My whole point was based on mushrikeen never being forgiven if they did not repent before death, in case it was not clear to you, or in case my statements were not clear. By "child's return" I meant the spirit's return to the Source (after death).

Please show me where I said "God won't forgive shirk if you repent before death".

I would advise you to be careful next time and avoid Strawman fallacy.

390 Those who have rejected after their belief, then increased in rejection, their repentance will not be accepted, they are the strayers.

This verse seems even more troubling. Read 389 -----> FORGIVER, MERCIFUL ALLAH, then read 390. The FORGIVER MERCIFUL ALLAH one verse prior turns into a non accepter of repentance.

What irreparable/irreversible harm have they done to the MERCIFUL, FORGIVER Infinite Creator that even their repentance will not be accepted? (indicating they will face eternal suffering).

Salam

A_Submitter

Salam Submitter,

You are committing the logical fallacy of Strawman.

Where and when did I say the red part?

My whole point was based on mushrikeen never being forgiven if they did not repent before death, in case it was not clear to you, or in case my statements were not clear. By "child's return" I meant the spirit's return to the Source (after death).

Please show me where I said "God won't forgive shirk if you repent before death".

I would advise you to be careful next time and avoid Strawman fallacy.

This verse seems even more troubling. Read 389 -----> FORGIVER, MERCIFUL ALLAH, then read 390. The FORGIVER MERCIFUL ALLAH one verse prior turns into a non accepter of repentance.

What irreparable/irreversible harm have they done to the MERCIFUL, FORGIVER Infinite Creator that even their repentance will not be accepted? (indicating they will face eternal suffering).

Salam

Salam,

A mistake on my side. I was basing on this that you wrote;

"According to the quran, however, forgiveness will NEVER prevail even when the "child" returns (448, 4116), thus the child might be made to suffer for eternity."

With returns I thought you meant repent and submit to God alone.

So I was reading it "If what you say - that God won't forgive a sin as grave as shirk if you repent before death-"...

Anyway, sorry.

Salam

Timotheus

Salam

Why wouldn't God forgive someone who committed shirk before death?

What about those who were brainwashed as children by sectarians, and followed their parents' views, then received the message and repented?

If what you say - that God won't forgive a sin as grave as shirk if you repent before death - then what is the point of repenting and submitting to God alone if one is still going to Hell?

You must be wrong Truthseeker11. I'm not promoting shirk of course, but maybe you're confusing with another verse in which God won't accept repentance.

390 Those who have rejected after their belief, then increased in rejection, their repentance will not be accepted, they are the strayers.

Good logic, can you provide me with those verses? Thank you.

Salam

Peace,

In the context of the quran, God says that he forgives whoever he wills, and punishes whoever he wills, that those who repent after wrongdoing, sincerely and amend there ways will have nothing to fear. In the context of the whole quran, this verse seems to impy (in my understanding) that God will not forgive those who assosciate others with him up untill they die, it seems clear to me, that those who repent and are purified from idol worship, If God has willed, are forgiven. I you would like verses to support this view, just ask, but there are so many, in the context of the whole.

As for those who are 'brainwashed'

3660

'Did i not condition/covenant/enjoin upon you, o children of adam, that you should not serve the satan, indeed he is to you a clear enemy'

7172-173

And your Lord took from the children of Adam, from their backs, their descendants, and He testified/witnessed them over their souls 'alastu birabbikum'?**. They said yes we have witnessed/testified'. that/so that you say on the day of standing 'Indeed we aere about this unaware', or that you say 'Only our forefathers before us associated partners, and we are descendants after them, so then will you destroy us for what the vain/worthless/nullified ones did?

**note i cannot say for certain the interpretation of this word/phrase, in the context, it would be taken multiple ways, most translators choose;
God talking 'am i not your lord'
It also, in my understanding, could be interpreted as
Children of adam, talking to their souls 'am i not with your Lord'

due to the context, it is unclear, BUT what is clear is that

We witnessed ourselves, to our Lord

(my faliable and limited understanding/interpretation, dont follow me follow God alone, and seek understanding from him)

we are all children of adam, God had us bear witness to Him as our lord, and conditioned it upon us that we are not to serve satan. Thus there are no acceptible excuses.

I know from my own childhood, lets say 'brainwashing' (i was brought up in a christian bretheren family, and they are very much almost exclusive bretheren/closed doors/cult kind of mentality, but still 'open', seemingly) That while for much of it i went along with it.. (this is the point..) I KNEW, 100%, with certainty, somewhere inside myself, that it was false. But i was 'kafar' or conceling the truth from myself.

why? because we all bore witness, we all KNOW that God is one, that he is our Lord, because we were there, with him, but in this life we can, and often do Cover over the truth, or hide it from ourselves (i.e reject)

Peace be with you, and may our Lord guide us and forgive us our errors.

Comrox

Peace all,

I was replying earlier but I stopped it; I had to do some things first.

It seems this thread conversation has evolved into a shirk discussion, and how God's mercy fits into it.

It's made me more interested to look at them (polytheists) and their beliefs more. Of course, they, like us, think they're right.

This discussion is interesting for sure...

Timotheus

Peace all,

I was replying earlier but I stopped it; I had to do some things first.

It seems this thread conversation has evolved into a shirk discussion, and how God's mercy fits into it.

It's made me more interested to look at them (polytheists) and their beliefs more. Of course, they, like us, think they're right.

This discussion is interesting for sure...

Peace,

people who think they are always right or in whatever matter, are possibly commiting shirk of themselves with God.

God is Al-Haqq, the right, the truth, while we inevitably are faliable, and quite often wrong, unless of course in whatever matter we strive for Al-Haqq, and even then;

2252

I think we all need to accept we are not always right, and in any matter we could be wrong, lest we become arrogant, and start trusting in ourselves rather than God. Of course God proves some things, with clear signs, and we cannot argue against them, for instance

la ilaha illa allah

I trust absolutely in this, and anyone who tells me otherwise, well i think that they are wrong. because 'inna ilaahakum lawaheed', which i interpret as 'indeed your god is certainly one'

It is something we should all do our best to be aware of, and if we contradict the 'evident/clear/manifest signs' in the quran, we are clearly wrong.

There are some things we know, or should do, with certainty, if we are believers, there are some other things, we know somewhat, and there are some things that we know nothing, or very little but assumption or conjecture. I am not saying I am not one of them, while i do try

1253

And I do not absolve my self, indeed the self is a certain advocate with evil, except what my Lord has had mercy. Indeed my Lord is forgiving, merciful

We are all Gods servants, whether willingly or unwillingly, we are all faliable human beings, and we should strive for, and ask our Lord An-Naseer, to help us to purify ourselves from falsehood. As God reminds us in 16106 if we are believers, or claim to be, we must do our utmost to purify ourselves from any disease we have in our hearts, and if we slip or fall, to turn to our Lord, At-Tawab and never become content, with concealing the truth from ourselves.

Peace

Bender

Thanks for the link! I'll look into it. )

My partner said he would be willing to pay for some online classes for me to help me learn more, but I'm not sure exactly what kind of classes he would like for me to take. If I can learn some Arabic though, that would be great.

The link I gave was for free, but if you or your partner have to much money and don't know what to do with it then I am a good charity to spend your money on, I'll send you via pm my bank account.
You do not need more then learning the alphabet, this means being able to distinguish the characters from each other, I am sure if you really want it then you can do this in 1 weekend.

Funny, I've done the same thing. A while back I bought a book that claimed it had some serious questions and issues concerning Islam. I sectioned off the part that focused on the Qur'an (was only about one third of the book) and read through it. Most of the "problems" addressed I found I was able to resolve on my own through examining the verses and reasoning. Some were historical, others I couldn't think my way out of completely or I got confused so I sticky-noted them and vowed to come back (hint I never did). The book is sitting on my shelf right now, and although I went through the whole section, I'm not sure if I feel compelled enough to pick it up again and go through. Honestly since I already went through it I just think I'm being lazy. Now that I've told you that, I must hide from myself. & nope

Yes shame on you, it's a bad attitude and leans towards kufr >(
kufr is from the same root as kafir, in case you didn't know.

Sounds like a really good idea! Thanks, I'll try to give it a shot when I have time. )

Yesterday I watched a video on YouTube called "False Prophets." Basically explained that there's no such thing, we're all messengers, and we all have our own perspectives and interpretations that add to or color the understanding of the message.

Nice vid, yes I agree we are all messengers, the difference is the message we transmit.

Can be hard to do for me, if you haven't already been able to tell. giveup

It's hard for everyone, that's imo why we find some verses very hard to comprehend and why we see contradictions.

Literally, no, it doesn't make sense. Figuratively... possibly? But I never take such verses in a literal light, so maybe that's why I find it "easy" per se to read past theses verses.

red There are no figurative verses in the quran. If the quran wants to give an example or a metaphor then it says so, if not then it's literal.
To understand the literal meaning of the so called "figurative" verses is quite some challenge

good_logic

Peace A Submitter.

When God says He forgives whomever He wills, he explains that His will is to forgive those who repent, reform, lead a righteous life and die as righteous believers, with no exceptions,yes even shirk.

Here are some verses
Only those who repent, believe, and lead a righteous life will enter Paradise, without the least injustice.

Anyone who commits evil, or wrongs his soul, then implores God for forgiveness, will find God Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Exempted are those who repent, believe, and lead a righteous life. God transforms their sins into credits. God is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
Those who repent and lead a righteous life, God redeems them; a complete redemption.

O you who believe, you shall repent to God a firm repentance. Your Lord will then remit your sins and admit you into gardens with flowing streams.....

..... Your Lord has decreed that mercy is His attribute. Thus, anyone among you who commits a transgression out of ignorance, and repents thereafter and reforms, then He is Forgiving, Most Merciful."

This is open to all humans,any race,any creed/religion,anyone
Proclaim "O My servants who exceeded the limits, never despair of God's mercy. For God forgives all sins. He is the Forgiver, Most Merciful."

God's will is explicit in Quran, it is not kept as a secret from us. It is consistent with His set laws and systems in Quran and with His attributes, specially His mercy and justice.
God shares His decreed will with us in Quran. He explains in depth who deserves His guidance, who earns His forgiveness and who is promised full redemption and admittance into His mercy.
Basically anyone who repents and corrects( sincere intention) will be redeemed.
GOD bless you.
Peace

Man_of_Faith

What is disbelief anyway? Ambiguous term.

truthseeker11

Peace Comrox,

It seems this thread conversation has evolved into a shirk discussion, and how God's mercy fits into it.

It's made me more interested to look at them (polytheists) and their beliefs more. Of course, they, like us, think they're right.

It appears that mushrikeen are not singled out, it's a subgroup of the kuffar/rejecters as well!

One of the forum members just drew my attention to a sign which had somehow slipped through the cracks for me

390 Those who have rejected after their belief, then increased in rejection, their repentance will not be accepted, they are the strayers.

It is interesting what the verse just before this one says

389 Except those who repent after this and make amends, then allah is forgiver, merciful.

There will be ETERNAL punishment of that subgroup of rejecters (since their repentance will not be accepted)

3131 And be aware of the fire that has been prepared for the rejecters.

750 And the dwellers of the fire called on the dwellers of paradise "Give us some water, or what allah has provided for you?" They said "allah has made it forbidden for the rejecters."

968 Allah has promised the hypocrite males and the hypocrite females and the rejecters a fire in hell, in it they will abide; it will be enough for them. And allah has cursed them and they will have a lasting retribution.

3536 As for those who have rejected, for them is the fire of hell, where they do not terminate and die, nor is its retribution ever reduced for them. It is such that we requite every rejecter.

764 We have prepared for the rejecters chains and shackles and a blazing fire.

What irreversible/irreparable harm will be caused to the infinite Creator by rejection of the rejecters, that even their repentance will not be accepted, justifying eternal suffering?
How can the Infinite Creator then call itself THE MERCIFUL, THE FORGIVER?

It appears that god is wrathful, vengeful and insecure because if someone sets up partners with it, the other god will become more powerful and have greater control, and if someone rejects it, it will lose power and have lesser control, and in both situations will be irreversibly/irreparably harmed justifying eternal suffering, cursing, shackling, roasting with no chance of forgiveness. These actions don't appear to be the actions of a JUST, MERCIFUL, LOVING AND FORGIVING INFINITE CREATOR. They appear more like actions of Enlil of Annunaki, Zeus, Apollo etc.

Peace

A_Submitter

Peace Comrox,

It appears that mushrikeen are not singled out, it's a subgroup of the kuffar/rejecters as well!

One of the forum members just drew my attention to a sign which had somehow slipped through the cracks for me

390 Those who have rejected after their belief, then increased in rejection, their repentance will not be accepted, they are the strayers.

It is interesting what the verse just before this one says

389 Except those who repent after this and make amends, then allah is forgiver, merciful.

There will be ETERNAL punishment of that subgroup of rejecters (since their repentance will not be accepted)

3131 And be aware of the fire that has been prepared for the rejecters.

750 And the dwellers of the fire called on the dwellers of paradise "Give us some water, or what allah has provided for you?" They said "allah has made it forbidden for the rejecters."

968 Allah has promised the hypocrite males and the hypocrite females and the rejecters a fire in hell, in it they will abide; it will be enough for them. And allah has cursed them and they will have a lasting retribution.

3536 As for those who have rejected, for them is the fire of hell, where they do not terminate and die, nor is its retribution ever reduced for them. It is such that we requite every rejecter.

764 We have prepared for the rejecters chains and shackles and a blazing fire.

What irreversible/irreparable harm will be caused to the infinite Creator by rejection of the rejecters, that even their repentance will not be accepted and consequently justifying eternal suffering?
How can the Infinite Creator then call itself THE MERCIFUL, THE FORGIVER?

It appears that god is wrathful, vengeful and insecure because if someone sets up partners with it, the other god will become more powerful and have greater control, and if someone rejects it, it will lose power and have lesser control, and in both situations will be irreversibly/irreparably harmed justifying eternal suffering, cursing, shackling, roasting with no chance of forgiveness. These actions don't appear to be the actions of a JUST, MERCIFUL, LOVING AND FORGIVING INFINITE CREATOR. They appear more like actions of Enlil of Annunaki, Zeus, Apollo etc.

Peace

Salam,

If we look closer into the verses we understand what kind of repentance He won't accept.

386 How can God guide a people who had rejected after believing, and had witnessed that the messenger was true, and the clear evidences had come to them? God does not guide the wicked people.
387 To these the punishment will be that the curse of God will be upon them and that of the angels and the people all together!
388 Abiding therein, the retribution will not be lightened for them, nor will they be reprieved.
389 Except those who repent after this and make amends, then God is Forgiver, Merciful.
390 Those who have rejected after their belief, then increased in rejection, their repentance will not be accepted, they are the strayers.

The differences in 386-389 and 390 is that the bold has been added "then increased in rejection".
So it says God will not accept your repentance if you increase your rejection after rejecting. Hard to explain, but I think you get it.

I was wondering though, how can one increase in rejection after rejecting?

Salam

A_Submitter