Faith no more
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Personally I think it would be pointless to try to debate as FaithNoMore has already said he/she is not interested in debating. Never mind the fact that if both parties are firm, they will equally stick to their convictions.
But anyways. What do I know?
its not debate its , a freindly request if he have evidence of his claims we must accept that . so thats y i also request him to show me the way in the shape of verses so tht i can also ponder on it.. and if i find it logical and true i also stop believing on God..
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Peace Comrox.
I agree debating can be a waste of time and effort.
However, THE TRUTH AND FALSEHOOD ARE NOT THE SAME.
Presenters of either the truth or falsehood have THE BURDEN OF PROOF.The truth will always be verifiable and will always stand high, shiny & non-negotiable while it will always be impossible to prove falsehood.
Those who introduce falsehood or attribute faulty claims, concepts or teachings to God and His message cannot stand any logical debate.
The reason is that they will always fail to prove their contradictory and irrational stands and they will never have a support for their blasphemies.
When it comes to the following challenging questions or arguments, I think I am convincedSuch is God, your rightful Lord. What is there after the truth, except falsehood? How could you disregard all this?
Why do you not take heed?
Do you have any proof?
Show us your book, if you are truthful.O people, here is a parable that you must ponder carefully the idols you set up beside God can never create a fly, even if they banded together to do so. Furthermore, if the fly steals anything from them, they cannot recover it; weak is the pursuer and the pursued.
If anyone argues with you, despite the knowledge you have received, then say, "Let us summon our children and your children, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves, then let us invoke God's curse upon the liars."
Absolutely, this is the narration of the truth. Absolutely, there is no god except God. Absolutely, God is the Almighty, Most Wise.
If they turn away, then God is fully aware of the evildoers.Say, "Can any of your idols initiate creation, then repeat it?" Say, "God initiates the creation, then repeats it." How could you deviate?
Let us see the proof ? ( Surely you tube videos also need to be checked/analysed!!!!)
I see another falsehood that is going to be shown up by the truth.GOD bless you.
Peace. -
peace FNM,
I was clearly asking YOU about YOUR findings, thus my views/mindset is completely irrelevant.
One of the reasons I asked what I did was because I sometimes see people making these claims BUT when asked to produce the strongest evidence they have, almost all (in my experience) evade answering.
I will let readers make up their own mind as to what this implies.
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Dear friends,
I have left Islam/Quran.
Fair enough. It is not so bad as long as you can progress spiritually which you probably can do better without the sectarian interpretation of Quran anyways.
I used to be a frequent poster here many years ago. I was a devout proponent of Quran alone, and a diligent student. I built Quran study tools and posted my analysis of verses but I want to keep my identity secret for now.
No problem.
I also believed in Code 19 (firmly) and scientific miracles of the Quran, but these unravelled quickly when I studied them critically after learning real maths and science.
Yes. Rashad Khalifa's "miracle" is quite deceptive, although I still find it odd that the "basmala" consists of 19 letters.
Briefly, what broke me out of my hypnosis was the flat earth, geocentric cosmology of the Quran. Mountains cast down like anchors to stop the earth moving. Incorrect embryology and pretty much every statement about the natural world is wrong. Took me a while to get over my confirmation bias (20 years), but I got there.
Yes. Because worldly people interpreted Quran therefore an equally wordly story.
I know the usual excuses, ?It?s not a book of science?, ?don?t take it literally?. How long can one take this approach? Soon there will be nothing literal left in the Quran. It offers no insight into the world and or any guidance. Most of the Quran is about following the messenger blindly. Mohammed was trying to build up a following through fear. He offered no miracles or any knowledge that people didn?t already have. ?Believe in me or you will be punished?. Of course the punishment didn?t come from God but from the hands of Mohammed. If you study him as a historical character, he is awful.
Absolutely. Muhammad according to the sectarian interpretation of Quran and hadith is an invented figure, perhaps a false prophet who together with his colleagues hijacked the innocent Quran to make something else out of it. Islam was an invented sect in the 7th century A.D. not previously been introduced. The "religions" did not have any particular names, in "Judaism" one was a Jew (yahood from root ha-dal-ya means something like gifted, guided or have recognized) which is an adjective description, but their faith has no name. Jew basically means that you have found the truth about things and try to live adapted accordingly. The word "chosen" suits poorly for the word, it is misfit.
Once you realise that the Quran is not from God you will see the bullshit. It is nothing but another idol. You must smash it. Remember, if you were born a muslim, you will have a lot of confirmation bias. Can you honestly say you are objective? Less than 0.5% change their birth religion. The truth is whatever you are born into.
This I do not agree with you on though. Quran was made written by Rabb or to say an insightful prophet who were in the Rabb and the Rabb in him (or could be her). The "bullshit" is whatever story has been fabricated about Quran on what it should say. Few people are objective though, this is correct, and that is why no one has challenged to established interpretation on a wider scale and why the current flimsy version of it is still accepted. To read Quran as intended it needs a complete reevaluation.
I read the Quran now and I see how hate filled it is and uses fear to shut down your rationality. I never noticed this before but the anti-jew sentiment is rabid. The God of the Quran is a lunatic. There isn?t a single positive Jewish story. Mohammed must have really hated the Jews and it explains Banu-Qurayza.
This is true. Quran is full of hate. The god is completely out of control and will condemn people eternally for not believing in it. It is like a megalomaniac dictator who just cannot get enough of attention and will execute anyone who does not accept him. No one ever reflects on it that way.
Quran never addresses women once. They are always addressed as property of men, even when it comes to their menses. 3195 was only revealed when the wives of the prophet complained why God does not mention women. I know you don?t like referring to books outside Quran, so look at 581. Clearly Mohammed is making shit up in response to women complaining. There are many more instances of just-in-time revelations.
Abrogation is also big problem and it clearly shows Mohammed testing the waters and changing his mind to suit his mission. There is always a verse that bails Mohammed out whenever he?s in tricky situation, especially with his wives.Quran seems to make little distinction between man and woman, not prioritizing it as something important. We only have genders in the body while the spirit is asexual. For a bodily/worldly person the gender might be important.
The idea of Prophets, Adam & Eve, Heaven and Hell all seems ridiculous now.
They are misrepresented. Hell is a purgatory and is the place in which we live right now. Heaven is a place where you are ethereal, i.e. you lack a body. Adam's "paradise story" is just an ancient parable which has gone out of hand through conjecture which the interpreters of Quran added further to. The word prophet in Arabic means 'insightful', it reflects a person well aware of the true face of things to those who encounter him. The reason for his insight is successful detachment to the bodily and a well-developed spirit which means he is synchronized with Rabb/God.
I?m not posting here to debate anyone. The desire to wake up must come from within. Besides, all the resources are on the internet. If you are brave enough to look. The best resource is the ?The Masked Arab? on youtube. I also find Hasan Radwan were interesting. Here?s a great video about the how the concept of hell was developed
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=uniMzg0Qrws
I have no problems with people who wish to awaken people from the delusions of Islam. But we all need to reflect objectively.
Also, I know all tricks and word gymnastics that a Quranist will use. I used to be one - a very good one at that. It can be exhausting and infuriating, - just pick any thread and see. This was another doubt. Why did we use such language of hate when speaking to each other? I later realised that it was the language of the Quran. Anybody who doesn?t ?believe as you believe? is liar, hypocrite, led astray or a jew. That gets into your subconscious when you read the Quran daily.
Yes, particularly if you read someone else's interpretation without really being able to decipher it yourself.
The Quranic mentality doesn?t allow you to accommodate anybody who thinks differently from you. Quran already tells you their motives so you will always view the other with suspicion or someone who is perpetually misguided by God.
You can reach to people who are "Quaranists" with effort, it is like with every human who has a certain conviction. It is about psychology and strategy on how you put things forth.
More so, it forces you hold contradictory views with ease.
Yes, it can be difficult to accept they are inconsistent.
I?m posting here now to ask you read the Quran critically. Just for an hour tell yourself it?s not from God. Indulge your doubts and let go of the fear. The Quran will tell you to do the opposite. If you are truth seeker what do you have to fear.
That is one way of doing it, might not work for everyone. Some may think it is Satan who wishes to infuse these thoughts into them.
Good luck my friends. Hope to see you awakened and fearless. Some posters here have awoken but are coy about it. Their posts never made sense to me but now I understand their position.
"Hehe".
I?m happy to have a friendly talk and advise people who?ve been having doubts. I now believe science is the only way to determine reality and what is good for us.
Science is a tool. Empirical science is undeniable, and obviously you can use science in order to find out more about our origin.
Be well
Amenuel -
My position is similar to that of Abraham. I've have smashed all my idols including Allah. He is a creation of Mohammed and those before him.
Very good, for Allah is not an entity. Rabb is One Foundation in which we exist, conscious or unconscious. It is very symbiotic and every person has the possibility to affect.
I do hope there is a higher power that guides me, but I know it can never be anything like the God of the Quran.
Well, Allah of (the sectarian interpretation of) Quran is not particularly guiding. Very worldly one that. Some cleric/s was/were that Being (Allah). There is a higher power that can guide you, but that consists of one unity of being.
I think only science can answer the God question. Revelation and prophets are an absurdity to me.
Not necessarily, you only need to listen to what has truly come from Rabb through a prophet (insightful one). People can guide by becoming ascended in mind in which state their mind will be more transcendent and therefore have more clarity in their perception.
And if we become insightful then this is because Rabb is in us and we are in Rabb, there is no separation between us.
Be well
Amenuel -
Humanity has a better chance of prosperity without religion. In particular Islam. If you look at history and present-day it is unable to reform.
That's not to say I am against it. I support reform. However, some of you are ready to move on to the next stage. I'm here to facilitate that )The best "chance of prosperity" is with clarity of mind.
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@ mof you are also insightful perosn isnt it?
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Peace Man Of Faith.
Please reflect on what you said,Quote
This I do not agree with you on though. Quran was made written by Rabb or to say an insightful prophet who were in the Rabb and the Rabb in him (or could be her). The "bullshit" is whatever story has been fabricated about Quran on what it should say. Few people are objective though, this is correct, and that is why no one has challenged to established interpretation on a wider scale and why the current flimsy version of it is still accepted. To read Quran as intended it needs a complete reevaluation.
Then you go on to add,quote
This is true. Quran is full of hate. The god is completely out of control and will condemn people eternally for not believing in it. It is like a megalomaniac dictator who just cannot get enough of attention and will execute anyone who does not accept him. No one ever reflects on it that way.
And ,quote
Quran seems to make little distinction between man and woman, not prioritizing it as something important. We only have genders in the body while the spirit is asexual. For a bodily/worldly person the gender might be important.
Is this not confusing?
I thought the Arabic Qoran says the same things since over 1400 years ago? Where do you see the contradictions?
Yes,brother,I forgot, you are going to explain it in your next post?
GOD bless you.
Peace -
Peace Man Of Faith.
Please reflect on what you said,Quote
This I do not agree with you on though. Quran was made written by Rabb or to say an insightful prophet who were in the Rabb and the Rabb in him (or could be her). The "bullshit" is whatever story has been fabricated about Quran on what it should say. Few people are objective though, this is correct, and that is why no one has challenged to established interpretation on a wider scale and why the current flimsy version of it is still accepted. To read Quran as intended it needs a complete reevaluation.
Then you go on to add,quote
This is true. Quran is full of hate. The god is completely out of control and will condemn people eternally for not believing in it. It is like a megalomaniac dictator who just cannot get enough of attention and will execute anyone who does not accept him. No one ever reflects on it that way.
And ,quote
Quran seems to make little distinction between man and woman, not prioritizing it as something important. We only have genders in the body while the spirit is asexual. For a bodily/worldly person the gender might be important.
Is this not confusing?
I thought the Arabic Qoran says the same things since over 1400 years ago? Where do you see the contradictions?
Yes,brother,I forgot, you are going to explain it in your next post?
GOD bless you.
Peaceyes it happens always people like GL ask difficult questions from prophets (insightful) people... and they will reply always .. its another matter out of million followers only 5 can hardly understand and beleive on some of the insightful persons..theories
same like every actor not get popular like shahrukh khan...
every insightful perosn not get popular like prophet muhammad...very simple and logical..
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I think you?ve misunderstood my position. I never rejected the Quran because of something I found in hadith or history. I rejected the Quran first and then studied Islam/Mohammed as a historian. I was a Quranist and had an audio of the Quran on playback most of the time. After a while I found the hatred very problematic and for a year was afraid to listen to the Quran in case I found another issue. I made excuses like, ?It?s classical Arabic. I?ll never understand it. Maybe I don?t have the right dictionaries. Maybe the verses haven?t been preserved correctly e.t.c?. Trust me, I made every possible excuse, took every possible position not to reject the Quran.
Also now that the Quranist mentality is not applicable, I can understand the view point of the Quran + Hadith camp. I don?t have a vested interest in either position, so I can see them objectively. They are both equally justified.
When I look at Islamic history now, I ask myself ?Can the justification for this act or behaviour be found in the Quran?? and the answer yes mostly.
So, again there is no 180 turn. Just the Quran by itself was enough to reject it.
Happy to clarify my position further if needed.
So to summarize
Would you agree with that conclusion? Or at least agree with the claim that Islamic history must, in some way, be considered when studying the Qur'an? Why or why not?
As a non-believer I see both as equally valid positions.
I find it intriguing that this radical shift of thinking occurs. I would like to know why, if this is your current belief and if you can explain it for me.
Are you asking me what issues I found in the Quran?
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Peace
I think in discussions like this two things are exposed
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The kufar still needs to connect with the believers out of jealousy/anger
loneliness. -
The believers misunderstand/disbelieve their lord when he says
45/23 Have you then considered him who takes his low desire for his god,
and Allah has made him err having knowledge and has set a seal upon his
ear and his heart and put a covering upon his eye. Who can then guide
him after Allah? Will you not then be mindful?and
6/111 And even if We had sent down to them the angels and the dead
had spoken to them and We had brought together all things before them,
they would not believe unless Allah pleases, but most of them are ignorant.Peace Comrox.
I agree debating can be a waste of time and effort.
I also agree
its not debate its , a freindly request if he have evidence of his claims we must accept that . so thats y i also request him to show me the way in the shape of verses so tht i can also ponder on it.. and if i find it logical and true i also stop believing on God..
Interesting hmm Please read 45/23 above.
Lakum deenukum waliya deeni
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peace FNM,
I was clearly asking YOU about YOUR findings, thus my views/mindset is completely irrelevant.
One of the reasons I asked what I did was because I sometimes see people making these claims BUT when asked to produce the strongest evidence they have, almost all (in my experience) evade answering.
I will let readers make up their own mind as to what this implies.
Wakas, I am presenting my findings through what is already available on the internet. It's very time consuming to type out every detail.
I have read your arguments to-date on this topic (Zul Qarnain) and have selected these videos especially for youIt's a simple request. Watch the videos. Does anything perturb you? Then we can take the conversation on separate thread.
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Interesting hmm Please read 45/23 above.
Lakum deenukum waliya deeni
hmmm
i m gona add some more ... from my collections...4330 And when the truth came to them, they said ?This is magic, and we reject it.?
4331 And they said ?If only this Qur?an was sent down to a man ofgreatness from the two towns!?
4332 Is it they who assign the mercy of your Lord? We have assigned their share in this worldly life, and We raised some of them aboveothers in ranks, so that they would take one another in service.The mercy from your Lord is far better than that which they
amass.Who breaks covenant with Allah after establishing it and cut what Allah has ordered to be joined,
and cause disorder on earth. They are the losers. 2 271036 The majority of people follow nothing but conjecture. But conjecture can never be a substitute for
the Reality of things.God is Knower of what they do (and forge).2210 That is for what your hands have brought forth, and God does not wrong the servants.
2211 Andfrom the people there is he who serves God nervously. So if good comes to him,
he is content with it; and if an ordeal comes to him, he makes an about-face.
He has lost this world and the Hereafter. Such is the clear loss.
2212 He calls upon besides God what will not harm him and what will not benefit him. Such is the far straying.2215 Whosoever thinks that God will not grant him victory in this world and the Hereafter,
then let him extend his request to the heaven via some means,
then let him cut off and see whether this action the cause of his anger6164 Say "Shall I seek other than God as a Lord when He is the Lord of everything?"
And every soul earns what is for it, and none will carry the burden of another.
Then to your Lord is your return and He will inform you of what you disputed in. -
Peace
I think in discussions like this two things are exposed
- The kufar still needs to connect with the believers out of jealousy/anger
loneliness.
You assumed my motives were jealousy/anger without proof. This is what your Quran teaches you. In the end you will be suspicious of everyone.
- The believers misunderstand/disbelieve their lord when he says
45/23 Have you then considered him who takes his low desire for his god,
and Allah has made him err having knowledge and has set a seal upon his
ear and his heart and put a covering upon his eye. Who can then guide
him after Allah? Will you not then be mindful?Again you question my motives as a "low desire". This verse only sows the seeds of hatred.
and
6/111 And even if We had sent down to them the angels and the dead
had spoken to them and We had brought together all things before them,
they would not believe unless Allah pleases, but most of them are ignorant.No, again you assume what I think.
If 6111 happened I would be the first to believe. But it didn't happen. It will never happen. I'm not ignorant.
Please keep quoting the Quran and exposing it's stupidity.
Even my SatNav has more sense than your Allah. When I make a wrong turn it doesn't condemn
me or set a seal upon my heart, but it re-calibrates a new path for me. No matter how many mistakes I make I always make it to my destination. - The kufar still needs to connect with the believers out of jealousy/anger
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The best "chance of prosperity" is with clarity of mind.
You are on a different level. I like it.
Do you have a youtube channel. You should present your views in videos or in a blog.
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You assumed my motives were jealousy/anger without proof. This is what your Quran teaches you. In the end you will be suspicious of everyone.
Again you question my motives as a "low desire". This verse only sows the seeds of hatred.
No, again you assume what I think.
If 6111 happened I would be the first to believe. But it didn't happen. It will never happen. I'm not ignorant.
Please keep quoting the Quran and exposing it's stupidity.
Even my SatNav has more sense than your Allah. When I make a wrong turn it doesn't condemn
me or set a seal upon my heart, but it re-calibrates a new path for me. No matter how many mistakes I make I always make it to my destination.Such a hypocrite.
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You assumed my motives were jealousy/anger without proof. This is what your Quran teaches you. In the end you will be suspicious of everyone.
Not true, I accept everyone's view as their own, Allah is the creator of all,
You are free to not believe. yesAgain you question my motives as a "low desire". This verse only sows the seeds of hatred.
From who, you?
No, again you assume what I think.
If 6111 happened I would be the first to believe. But it didn't happen. It will never happen.
is that what you require, to witness a metaphor? nope
Please keep quoting the Quran and exposing it's stupidity.
The Mirror effect, the Quran reflects what's in our hearts.
Even my SatNav has more sense than your Allah. When I make a wrong turn it doesn't condemn
me or set a seal upon my heart, but it re-calibrates a new path for me. No matter how many mistakes I make I always make it to my destination.May I add hatred to your list of reasons for your
interactions with the believers! what a shameLakum deenukum waliya deeni
full stop. police
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Well, Allah of (the sectarian interpretation of) Quran is not particularly guiding. Very worldly one that. Some cleric/s was/were that Being (Allah). There is a higher power that can guide you, but that consists of one unity of being.
Salaam MoF,
Red nope
Inna hudaAllahi huwa alHuda.
