The Quran is NOT sufficient
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Peace be upon you all,
Moderators, do we have enough evidence now that Ansar should be sent on his way? Or are we still being patient to see if he really wants to learn something. I think there were others on here who were sent on there way who were more interested in learning that he is.
Just my opinion.Brother idolfree,
Seek allah's salamath now over ansar's ignorance. If we have an edge let us prove the point to him and make him repent or retreat. He has no subject at all to out beat the truth. Throw the truth over the falsehood and the falsehood vanishes. Are we not to see this promise of allah? If we are incapable of doing such thing, is it not that we have to improve ourselves upon the truth. Let this be jihad against ansar without sword or weapon or use of discretionary powers that we have, but only with the knowledge that you aught to apply, or the wisdom that allah might grant us for our patience towards ansars and his likes.
May Allah Save Us the Dignity
And of The Forum. -
By the way, tell your wife that according to islam, so called 'quran-only people' are apostates and no longer remain muslims. A wife should be seperated from her husband then. If she doesnt seperate, she'll be living in zina.
Ansar, if you do not substantiate your views as you have stated above, with proper ayats then you are an outcast. So will you please answer the following
Allah says He alone shall purify you and there by place you on the straight path.
Follow not the majority who are astray
Follow not the fore fathers and ancestors
Follow not what is not sent down upon you
Follow Allah
Follow Prophets
Follow rasuls
Look up to Him alone for anything and everything
Never lie on Allah.Now tell me, if any of your statements fits any of the requirements that allah had mentioned in the Book.
Are you following allah or the pariahs such as buhari, muslim, abudawood and tirmithi etc.?
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Peace idolfree,
Totally against banning Ansar, he's been such a laugh. Funny how he had a lot to write about Damon's demise, but fail to comment on the Amir shagging behind her wife's back. Probably thinks it was muta'.
Regards
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Peace be upon you Brother Fazl and Mozmahe,
Thank you for the reminders. It just was getting to be like a fly buzzing around my ear. But I will just transcend that level. Thank you both for maintaining the path in this matter and sending me the reminder.
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Peace Ansar,
The ahl al-kalam took a more radical line, rejecting the authority of hadith altogether. What we know of their ideas about sunna is drawn primarily from polemical works written against them. We get our first substantial views of their arguments from the writings of al-Shafii.
pg 13 of Daniel Brown's Rethinking Tradition in Modern Islamic Thought
Again, the rejection of Hadith is as old as Hadith itself. It is a simple historical fact. I don't understand why you are denying this.
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Shafi was born in 204 AH (193 years after Prophet Muhammad's death). He was the first to argue the Prophet's sunna as a source of law, identified to authentic prophetic hadith, and give it an equal footing to The Quran. Different attitudes to sunna existed during Shafi, al-kalam (a particular group or school of thought) rejected hadith altogether in favour of The Quran alone. Shafi's view was also oppossed early by schools of jurisprudence in Hijaz, Iraq and Syria, who applied the term sunna to Muhammad, his companions and the early caliphs as well.
After Shafi, it is rare to find the term sunna applied to other than Muhammad. Al-kalam argued the sunna of Muhammad should never be allowed to rule on The Quran and described the science of hadith (as in the methods used to collect hadith) as arbitrary. Evidence of this was the hadith was filled with contradictory, blasphemous and absurd traditions."Rethinking Tradition in Modern Islamic Thought" by Daniel Brown. (p8-20)
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Peace Damon,
Just deliver the message my brother! I?ve had some very uplifting experiences with those who used to call themselves ?sunnis? but left for reasons of their own. One person commented that I had allowed them to come back to God with God alone in the Qur'aan alone. Then there are others who call themselves Christians who are not fanatics who are open to the message. Another comment which for me was most overwhelming was from one such person. She said after our discussion that she thinks I may have changed her life. Then there was my Jewish surgeon. He asked me about religion and I asked him to tell me what he thought of God leaving aside Jewish teachings. His responses as a scientist were right in line with what is taught in the message. He kept repeating, are you sure that is what the Qur'aan teaches, in amazement. He said this was worth further investigation as he always believed this idea that God is concerned about rituals and other nonsense like shaving, circumcision etc via the Talmud were the invention of man. I have a younger brother, a scientist, who I?ve been talking to for over 30 years about what I thought was Islam, who after hearing God alone in the Qur'aan alone says we have finally found common ground and has become an enthusiastic proponent of the message and has moved on to delivering it to his friends. I?m saying all this because there are millions perhaps billions of people who would be true servants for God if they hear the true message in the reading. The others are bound by God?s immutable laws of guidance and they will not hear because they are not practical and don?t use their aqal.
My kids (grown-ups) got me a new high tech cell phone this week and we laughed about how many numbers from my old cell phone book could be left out of the new directory. I consider my new phonebook one of quality and not quantity. I used to think I wanted to leave New York City and considered it the ?belly of the beast?. Now I find it full of infinite possibilities to deliver the message. If you decide to leave, come here lol The God has not promised the convinced large numbers, He has promised them success.
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Peace be upon you Grourself,
Very encouraging story brother! D You started my day off nicely with that advice/example.
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Then I asked him is Quran not enough for him as a source of guidance, and he flat out told me NO! At that point, I knew it was pointless and I finally gave it up.
Peace Damon
I actually think you are giving this guy more stick than he deserves. At least he admitted that he does not believe in what the Quran says. He gave you a flat out answer! This is good.
From my experience the sunnis, before they are made aware of the truth or if you are one/they feel that you are one will come out with their flawed argument about the Quran being not fully detailed and the 'hadith' filling in the gaps. However, once made aware of the truth they play this wierd game of almost admitting straight up that they reject the Quran without ever admitting it. An example of this is the salat thing. You know what I mean, 'if the Quran is fully detailed then where is salat detailed?' This, of course, is not genuine question because what they are really asking is where is the way I do salat mentioned in the Quran.
This guy is at least genuine enough to admit his fundamental disbelief in the Quran.
About the hypocrisy thing too ; I have realised that people who believe mindless rituals (e.g. chanting incantations they don't even have to understand) are the key to salvation have little idea about everyday moral issues.
It is good that you are discussing the issues though. I mostly encounter extreme hostility and irrational and ignorant arguments. The issue is not our arguments, but their ability to listen to them.
Roshan
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"Rethinking Tradition in Modern Islamic Thought" by Daniel Brown. (p8-20)
Peace
Just a quick message. Have you reaf the following review
http//www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0521653940/qid=1105107039/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-0629851-5506522?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
It just seems to be very different to yours, but I have only had a cursory glance at both .
Roshan
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Peace be with you Grourself and Roshan,
WOW GUYS!!! Thanx for the words and advice....you guys have really made my day. It's good that we have a forum...for times like this when we feel alone and down in the dumps.
Thanx again guys.
Salaam.
GOD Alone/Quran Alone,
Damon. -
Peace Damon,
I don't have this kind of problem with people around me. But I have another kind of trouble, but nothing serious.
For example, when I told my mom that she did many unnecessary things while washing before performing Salat, and told her about the verses precisely describing what you should wash and when, she just said " I have never read the Qu'ran".
What I don't understand though, is that, although she aknowledge the fact that the Qu'ran described something different from what she did, and that the Qu'ran, the word of GOD, should be what she should follow... She just kept her old habits...
And it s like this with my whole familly, they all acknowledge what I tell them and say 'true! that's right', but nobody changes.....
Anyone can understand that? -
Peace be upon you Farouk,
Yes, the God describes this blind imitation as "blind following of the fathers". It is your job as the messenger to your people, to find ways to make it clear. Use ordinary everyday examples, try to find areas in thier lives where you notice they VERIFY someting, maybe like the change they recieve from a store purchase, etc. Ask them WHY they verified if they recieved correct change, etc. This is not the best example but I am sure can can find soem good ones if you observe them long enough. And just keep making them question thier processes. Then relate it back to the MOST IMPORTANT TOPIC that should be verified.
Again , the above is not the best example, but just trying to give you an idea of one way to apprach this. The Job of the messenger is to make it clear.
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Thank you for the advice,
I had been a sunni for most of my life, which didnt prevent me from dating an hardcore atheist (she had been an atheist for as long as I had been a sunni). After many debates, she once called me and told me she now believed in God, and then was muslim, we are currently engaged and plan to marry soon.
I don't see how I could have convinced her, and i finally came to the conclusion that I did absolutely nothing, GOD did.
Somewhere I think it was God's will to make us meet, I think I needed a "fresh eye", someone with no habit or traditions with Islam to make me read the Qu'ran in a different angle.
Anyway, she is the one who pointed me to your website, and what i read here made perfect sense to me. That's why I will now say I am a muslilm (not just a sunni muslim).
And that makes sense If you read something in the Qu'ran, and something different in the Hadiths, who is right?
That's at least the question i keep asking my parents. They agree, but their habits are strong, I guess. -
Peace be upon you Farouk,
After many debates, she once called me and told me she now believed in God, and then was muslim, we are currently engaged and plan to marry soon.
I don't see how I could have convinced her, and i finally came to the conclusion that I did absolutely nothing, GOD did.First, congrats on the engagement. Second, while the God indeed does all, I think you were the tool that he used to help her understand. You state you did not do anything, but you debated with her, obviously in a wise and intelligent manner, and this is planting seeds. Those seeds grew by the God's grace, but do not discount the power of debate(not arguing).
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Thanks for the kind words,
But also, if it wasn't for GOD making me meet her, i think i would never have questionned things i did only because my parents did, and i wouldnt even be on this forum. I think she, too, was GOD's tool to make me rethink the Qu'ran.
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Peace be upon you Farouk,
I think she, too, was GOD's tool to make me rethink the Qu'ran.
Absolutely, as all of us are tools for each other Everything is interconnected.
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Peace Damon & Idol & All,
We could probably fill a long thread with these stories. )
I neglected to mention a debate with an attorney who is also hafeez of quran. He got so caught up in trying to prove his point he said to me ?FORGET ABOUT THE QUR'AAN? and accused me of being too logical. However, as soon as the words left his lips, he recognized his folly. We all laughed and agreed that we had to do this (debate) again. Even though he was hafeez (a lot of useless parroting) I would give him time to prepare for me to ?hurl? the truth at the falsehood. That also made him smile. I think being away from the madrassah and here in NY he is starting to mellow. God is the guide.
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Remember, Daniel Brown presents evidence from both sides. I suggest you thoroughly read my summary, better yet, buy the book yourself.
I'd second that. Daniel Brown's book looks at the issue of Hadith/Sunna from both sides. He discusses, at length, the arguments of the Hadithists and non-Hadithists. It is very balanced and does not take a side. Highly recommended!
