What is the Purpose of Life?

Man_of_Faith

It is for that reason clever atheists will not believe in your god too. You cannot come with an intelligent explanation that people will accept.

hansolo

And I also say one has one go at this life, you are not reborn in this life. When your body dies it will not return.

Amenuel

Man of Faith, so You mean after we die, we as an individual perish, if one does not graduate so to speak? So even if we Do come back here, its not us anymore right? So yeah with this logic, indeed we die when we die (If we dont ascend into the next level). So one only keeps himself/herself if He/She graduates from this place? If so, The word "save yourself" gained a whole new meaning for me. I dont want to die.

Peace

good_logic

Peace Man Of Faith.
Please read my post properly. Quote where I called you arrogant.
If you mean I called your logic arrogant that is because you believe too much in your warped logic. .

You keep going on about the sectarians,yet you are just as dangerous with your logic as they are with their interpretations.
Yes, so to you your logic and to me the clear Arabic Qoran.

As for your clever Atheist,I am not their guardian. I just wonder how clever they are with all GOD s signs around them and inside their bodies?
Of course you will keep on talking and making all these deluded statement without a shred of evidence from Qoran and you claim your logic is superior tp everyone.
So of course I will call this logic arrogant.
However you are entitled to have your logic.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Nonetheless

Peace Nonetheless.
Where did I mention reincarnation?

Are you saying your next life is reincarnation?

Nothing to do with the reincarnation of a soul as different bodies in the same life!!!!!

This is about a soul living a first life that led to it being a human living this life that will lead him to the destination and new creation of the next life . The same soul

Or are you saying GOD s words are not carefully chosen in the verses I quoted?

One is saying we were "Amyatan" then created in this life. The other is saying we were "nothing-Lam Yakun Shayan-"before that and we were created a first time.

Does "Amwatan" and "Lam Yakun Shayan- nothing-" mean the same thing?

Now tells us your understanding of those verses if you disagree?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

From Wiki
Reincarnation is the philosophical or religious concept that an aspect of a living being starts a new life in a different physical body or form after each biological death. It is also called rebirth or transmigration, and is a part of the Sasra doctrine of cyclic existence.

Reincarnation usually refer to many life cycles.
In your case you stated the same "soul" live in another life then died is reborn into a human being.
This is similar to reincarnation or rebirth albeit involving one cycle but how can you confirmed in your case there are no previous lives for that same soul?

•
Pickthall's
327. Who made all things good which He created, and He began the creation of man from clay;
328. Then He made his seed from a draught of despised fluid ;
329. Then He fashioned him and breathed into him of His spirit ; and appointed for you hearing and sight and hearts. Small thanks give ye!

•

According to the Quran, there is no mentioned of previous life and death of soul.
From 327-9 Allah breathed his spirit into lifeless thing to create a live human being.

Or are you saying GOD's words are not carefully chosen in the verses I quoted?
Note "amwatan" from Miim-Waw-Ta has a range of meanings;

• To die, to pass away from the earthly life, to be destitute or deprived of life, deprived of sensation, deprived of the intellectual faculty, to be still/quiet/motionless, to be calm/still, to sleep, lifeless, to be assuaged, dried up by the earth, to cease, wear out/be worn out, to be poor/reduced to poverty, abject/base/despicable/vile, disobedient or rebellious, lowly/humble/submissive, to be soft/loose/flabby/relaxed, lack spirit or life.

•

In the context of 228 the most appropriate translation is 'lifeless'.
Thus God's words and its related intended meaning was carefully chosen.

Does "Amwatan" and "Lam Yakun Shayan- nothing-" mean the same thing?

In the context of 228 they do not mean the same thing.

good_logic

Peace Nonetheless.

1-You have just demonstrated in your post that there is reincarnation according to Qoran if you say ,quote
Reincarnation usually refer to many life cycles

Because according to Qoran we are going to have another life cycle?

2-If GOD puts someone to death this must mean they were alive before? So how do you explain this

4011
They will say, "Our Lord, you have put us to death twice,* and You gave us two lives; now we have confessed our sins. Is there any way out?"

According to you they only died once., contradicting 4011.
According to the verse there must have had a life before this one for them to be "Amwatan" =put to death= the first time?

And of course there is " Wa Lakad Alimtumu AL-NASHATA Aloula Afala Tadhakkaroun?" GOD is reminding here that we had a first life before this one ,hence adding "Don t you remember"?
There fore what you say here (in your previous post) is not true,quote
According to the Quran, there is no mentioned of previous life and death of soul.

There is a mention of a previous death of a soul,hence there must have been a previous life.
GOD bless you.
Peace

Nonetheless

Peace Nonetheless.

1-You have just demonstrated in your post that there is reincarnation according to Qoran if you say ,quote
Reincarnation usually refer to many life cycles

Because according to Qoran we are going to have another life cycle?

2-If GOD puts someone to death this must mean they were alive before? So how do you explain this

4011
They will say, "Our Lord, you have put us to death twice,* and You gave us two lives; now we have confessed our sins. Is there any way out?"

According to you they only died once., contradicting 4011.
According to the verse there must have had a life before this one for them to be "Amwatan" =put to death= the first time?

And of course there is " Wa Lakad Alimtumu AL-NASHATA Aloula Afala Tadhakkaroun?" GOD is reminding here that we had a first life before this one ,hence adding "Don t you remember"?
There fore what you say here (in your previous post) is not true,quote
According to the Quran, there is no mentioned of previous life and death of soul.

There is a mention of a previous death of a soul,hence there must have been a previous life.
GOD bless you.
Peace

Nope there is no concept reincarnation within Islam.
This is supported by the point the life of a human being start off with God breathing God's spirit into a lifeless thing as in 329, with Adam, Isa in Mary's womb, ...

Thus 4011 is overriden by the above critical verses and principles, therefore no reincarnation in Islam.

The two lives and two deaths cannot be taken too literally.
Many translators translated "amattan" as 'lifeless' that is once before birth and once when in tarrying after physical death and before Judgment Day.
The 'lifeless_ness' may be slightly different but nevertheless still without life until they are made alive again for Judgment.

There are other alternative points to support the two deaths and two lives, but definitely there is no reincarnation.

good_logic

Peace Nonetheless.

I told you there is no reincarnation ,however you are digging a hole for yourself,allow me to clarify

1-You claimed reincarnation is having many ife cycles. Then I pointed out the contradiction about us having at least two different life cycles according to Qoran.

2- You claimed ,quote"Thus 4011 is overriden by the above critical verses and principles, therefore no reincarnation in Islam here I need to point out the contradiction in Qoran that nothing overrides/abrogates GOD s words.

3- I have not seen a single verse quoted by you that supports your argument . If something is "Amwatan" which you say it just means lifeless. Well what does lifeless mean? . How can you put something to death that did not exist if there was nothing there before?

You are just insisting on your wrong contradictory argument with all due respect. At least study the verses I gave you and all relevant verses of life/death/other life..etc and present your argument from the context of all the verses of Qoran?

I gave you my evidence of my argument using verses from Qoran, If you cannot do the same I suggest we leave it here and move on .

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Nonetheless

Peace good logic,

You missed the finer point, note I stated
"Reincarnation usually refer to many life cycles."
In other cases, it can apply to two lives.
There is no contradiction.

Thus as long as you maintain humans were dead before they were born, then that is associated with reincarnation to some degrees .

As I had stated some translators do use "lifeless" or in similar form, e.g.

• Umm Muhammad (Sahih International)
They will say, "Our Lord, You made us lifeless twice and gave us life twice, and we have confessed our sins. So is there to an exit any way?"

Bilal Muhammad
They will say, ?Our Lord, twice have You made us without life, and twice have You given us life. Now have we recognized our sins, is there any way out??

Syed Vickar Ahamed
They will say "Our Lord! Twice have You made us (when we were) without life, and twice You have given us Life! Now we have recognized our sins Then, is there any way to get out (of this)?"

Abdel Haleem
They will say, ?Our Lord, twice You have caused us to be lifeless and twice You have brought us to life. Now we recognize our sins. Is there any way out??

They shall say " O Allah, our Creator, twice did you deprive us of animate existence by death and twice did you bring us into being and caused us to exist, and now we confess our sins and confess to the charge, but is there a way out of this agony and torment? "

Yusuf Ali
They will say "Our Lord! twice hast Thou made us without life, and twice hast Thou given us Life! Now have we recognised our sins Is there any way out (of this)?"

•

I agree with the above.
They avoided the term 'die' 'dead' to avoid veering to physical death before birth and mortality.
One can translate as 'die' or 'dead' twice, but one must be careful not to interpret there are two lives, i.e. one before birth.

good_logic

Peace Nonetheless.
1-Still when you say,quote Thus as long as you maintain humans were dead before they were born, then that is associated with reincarnation to some degrees .

You know we will die before we get reborn(resurrected) in the next life! Now what do you call that? Two life cycles?
Where did I miss the point? You just repeated the same contradiction!

2- You then add, Quote One can translate as 'die' or 'dead' twice, but one must be careful not to interpret there are two lives, i.e. one before birth.
You still have the problem of "Amattana" in 4011 means "You have put us to death". Now how can GOD put them to death the first time if they were nothing? They must have been alive!!!! Hence a first life
Read the verse again it does not say we were "Amwatan" like you claim it means lifeless?
Also you have the problem of the two lives in 40;11, it says "Ahyaytana" in the past tense which means they already had two lives before the standing in front of GODi.e they are talking to GOD at the beginning of the third life. Yes the third life which just started for them after the two life they had in the past.

By all means believe any translation you wish to believe, the problem that is clearly pointed out to you in my posts will not go away.
I am saying, with Qoranic evidence(4011) that "Amattana" means "you have put us to death" cannot mean lifeless( non existing). It can only mean "life" before they were put to death.
And of course you know full well it cannot be "overridden" by any other verse ,since GOD s words are true and nothing can override/abrogate them.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Nonetheless

....

By all means believe any translation you wish to believe, the problem that is clearly pointed out to you in my posts will not go away.
I am saying, with Qoranic evidence(4011) that "Amattana" means "you have put us to death" cannot mean lifeless( non existing). It can only mean "life" before they were put to death.
And of course you know full well it cannot be "overridden" by any other verse ,since GOD s words are true and nothing can override/abrogate them.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Note I mentioned earlier;

Note "amwatan" from Miim-Waw-Ta has a range of meanings;

• To die,
to pass away from the earthly life,
to be destitute or deprived of life,
deprived of sensation,
deprived of the intellectual faculty,
to be still/quiet/motionless,
to be calm/still,
to sleep,
lifeless,
to be assuaged,
dried up by the earth,
to cease,
wear out/be worn out,
to be poor/reduced to poverty,
abject/base/despicable/vile,
disobedient or rebellious,
lowly/humble/submissive,
to be soft/loose/flabby/relaxed,
lack spirit or life.

•

God used one word, but who give you the right to choose any of the above meanings of the word?

I believe 'lifeless' from the list of the above meanings is most appropriate for "Amattana" in the context of 4011. 'Lifeless' will not lead into the concept of possible reincarnation or rebirth.

Man_of_Faith

Lifeless can also be lacking in spirit, that one is weakminded.

good_logic

Peace Nonetheless.

So we have reached the following,quote;

God used one word, but who give you the right to choose any of the above meanings of the word?

I believe 'lifeless' from the list of the above meanings is most appropriate for "Amattana" in the context of 4011. 'Lifeless' will not lead into the concept of possible reincarnation or rebirth.

This means pick and choose regardless of any context or best meaning.
Anyone, in the same way, can claim as you did by picking a meaning at random( apart from lifeless) from the list and saying to you "who give you the right to choose lifeless?"
You are sticking with lifeless despite the evidence given to you. That is fine by me as long as you say that and we move on.
What can I say ?
This "my mind is made up" attitude is not a good way to study GOD s words.
However ,you are entitled to your choice.
Hope you read again GOD s words and reflect.
May GOD guide us to the best meaning.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Nonetheless

Lifeless can also be lacking in spirit, that one is weakminded.

True, "lifeless" can have lots of meanings.

Note the various meaning of 'lifeless

• "Lifeless"
dead or apparently dead.
"his lifeless body was taken from the river"
synonyms dead, departed, perished, gone, no more, passed on/away, stiff, cold, (as) dead as a doornail; More

lacking vigor, vitality, or excitement.
"my hair always seems to look lifeless"
synonyms lackluster, spiritless, apathetic, torpid, lethargic; More

devoid of living things.
"the moon is lifeless"
synonyms barren, sterile, bare, desolate, stark, arid, infertile, uncultivated, uninhabited; bleak, colorless, characterless, soulless
"a lifeless landscape"

•

What is critical is one has to take the context into account.

Nonetheless

Peace Nonetheless.

So we have reached the following,quote;

God used one word, but who give you the right to choose any of the above meanings of the word?

I believe 'lifeless' from the list of the above meanings is most appropriate for "Amattana" in the context of 4011. 'Lifeless' will not lead into the concept of possible reincarnation or rebirth.

This means pick and choose regardless of any context or best meaning.
Anyone, in the same way, can claim as you did by picking a meaning at random( apart from lifeless) from the list and saying to you "who give you the right to choose lifeless?"
You are sticking with lifeless despite the evidence given to you. That is fine by me as long as you say that and we move on.
What can I say ?
This "my mind is made up" attitude is not a good way to study GOD s words.
However ,you are entitled to your choice.
Hope you read again GOD s words and reflect.
May GOD guide us to the best meaning.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

I agree we move on but you do not seem to let go and imply I am rigid and stupid.

Note the Principle of Charity
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity

In philosophy and rhetoric, the principle of charity requires interpreting a speaker's statements to be rational and, in the case of any argument, considering its best, strongest possible interpretation.
In its narrowest sense, the goal of this methodological principle is to avoid attributing irrationality, logical fallacies or falsehoods to the others' statements, when a coherent, rational interpretation of the statements is available.
According to Simon Blackburn "it constrains the interpreter to maximize the truth or rationality in the subject's sayings." -wiki

My rationale is to avoid others interpreting Islam with the possibility that Islam accept 'reincarnation' or 'rebirth' the term 'lifeless' is the most effective translation.

good_logic

Peace Nontheless.

This is not about principles of fallacies or charity or burdens of proofs...etc.

This is a simple what does 4011 say?
Let me summarise for the benefit of the readers, then leave it at that

If you stay put on "Amattana" means lifeless( nothing existed before), then the second one must also mean the same- lifeless,nothing existed-
According to you these people never existed at all?
I say 4011 says a first life before the first "Amattana".
And of course these people are projected to the future in 4011 and had "two lives before"- "Ahyaytana Ithnataini" ( The first life and the human life) and are now asking for some respite .

I will now also move on.
Thank you for the conversation.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

imrankhawaja

4456 They do not taste death therein except for the first death, and He has spared them the retribution of hell.

handshake

rebirth cause deaths in plural so by default one life one chance, one go one exam ,one task...

and even if rebirth exists it does not really matter a criminal will always commit crimes regardless of the chances , logically there is no point of creating a trouser with same machine that will manufacture a faulty trouser...

so hereafter criminals wish alas we had a second chance, but God is already aware they will do the same things again ... if second third or fourth chance is been given to them...

i did not find much attraction in the logic of second birth...

Man_of_Faith

There are criminals who have happened to change behavior and made changes to the lifestyle. So the argument "once a criminal always a criminal" is not necessarily right.

Be well
Amenuel

Jafar

and even if rebirth exists it does not really matter a criminal will always commit crimes regardless of the chances , logically there is no point of creating a trouser with same machine that will manufacture a faulty trouser...

The Moses Egyptian Pharaoh will not commit murder and oppression if he was born as a slave to the egyptian empire (or as an oppressed israelites) he will not have the power to do so.. and he will be too busy with his slave works....

And who knows if YOU were born as that egyptian pharaoh on that specific era, spoiled all-rich kid since birth, arrogance and narcissistic due to everyone praises you like a god and nobody dare to correct your mistakes let alone criticize you.. you will do the exact same things as he did..

i did not find much attraction in the logic of second birth...

How about challenged with different context and/or see things from other perspective?

Adolf Hitler relived as a Jew in Nazi era?
Muslims hater relived as a Muslim during Spanish Inquisition era?
Black hater relived as blacks during American slavery era?
Male women oppressor relived as woman .....

The list goes on and on...

"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."
-- Abe Lincoln

imrankhawaja

The Moses Egyptian Pharaoh will not commit murder and oppression if he was born as a slave to the egyptian empire (or as an oppressed israelites) he will not have the power to do so.. and he will be too busy with his slave works....

And who knows if YOU were born as that egyptian pharaoh on that specific era, spoiled all-rich kid since birth, arrogance and narcissistic due to everyone praises you like a god and nobody dare to correct your mistakes let alone criticize you.. you will do the exact same things as he did..

How about challenged with different context and/or see things from other perspective?

RED may be he will become an evil slave who spread evil and probably plan to kill the master ... whats the difference then?

BLUE solomon got much more than pharoah in worldy wealth as well as the company of mysterious characters who are able to do works in the glimpse of eyes... and he was the son of king too ,
but did he do anything wrong ?

GREEN.. yeh exactly look it by the perception of God he was making us aware about an future event in which the criminals are begging for second chance , if they were already provided with second third or fourth chance why did not God said.. i gave you plantey of chances but you always failed...? instead book is saying you will do the same what u were doing before...

HP_TECH

Peace Nontheless.

This is not about principles of fallacies or charity or burdens of proofs...etc.

This is a simple what does 4011 say?
Let me summarise for the benefit of the readers, then leave it at that

If you stay put on "Amattana" means lifeless( nothing existed before), then the second one must also mean the same- lifeless,nothing existed-
According to you these people never existed at all?
I say 4011 says a first life before the first "Amattana".
And of course these people are projected to the future in 4011 and had "two lives before"- "Ahyaytana Ithnataini" ( The first life and the human life) and are now asking for some respite .

I will now also move on.
Thank you for the conversation.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Don't grieve my Lord also guided me to the same understanding indeed we were alive before, all of us.
And then we were put to death all of us.
Before that we were put to death and cast down from our safe dwelling place after dispute arose, our Lord brought us out from our parents' backs/loins and asked us
"Am I not your Lord?"
"Yes we have testified" we all replied
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