AlFathia

The_Sardar

Let us keep this discussion to understanding of Quran and especially word Allah based upon linguistic rules. Thanks.

Okay. Still i am not sure if Allah really means One who does not engage worship. What do you say about this brother Manny_E?

bkanwar2

Wait i am lost here, how is worship causes subjugation? Isn't that like a anti theist claim or something? There was also atheist groups who did some bad thing like League of Militant Atheists in Soviet Union. Look up their grave misdeeds.

Worship and concept of god for worship leads to hierarchy of religious institutions. It only serves the purpose of these institutions and people running these institutions. The common people are salves of god via these institutions . However, if there is a creator? One doesn't need any hierarchy or structured ritualistic religion to bring humans to him. Their description of creator is as wrong as yours or mine. It is all imaginative with false accounts created and attributed to imaginative authorities.

So far what I understand of Quran. While it denies worship and hence obliterates need for the god or gods for worship. Yet it doesn't provide a description of a creator.

The_Sardar

Worship and concept of god for worship leads to hierarchy of religious institutions. It only serves the purpose of these institutions and people running these institutions. The common people are salves of god via these institutions . However, if there is a creator? One doesn't need any hierarchy or structured ritualistic religion to bring humans to him. Their description of creator is as wrong as yours or mine. It is all imaginative with false accounts created and attributed to imaginative authorities.

Since when did i say about rituals and hierarchy?

The_Sardar

So far what I understand of Quran. While it denies worship and hence obliterates need for the god or gods for worship. Yet it doesn't provide a description of a creator.

I don't think you are correct about that. Check Surah 112.

bkanwar2

I don't think you are correct about that. Check Surah 112.

You mean to say following establish it?

Surah 112 1

He, who doesn?t engage in worship is following an ultimate reality, use your rational and express

Surah 112 2

The course needs to be repaired and directed to one, who doesn?t engage in worship.

Surah 112 3

Neither he has introduced a new idea, nor he could.

Surah 112 4

There is no other ultimate reality in likeliness for him.

The_Sardar

Surah 112 1

He, who doesn?t engage in worship is following an ultimate reality, use your rational and express

Where did you get following and ultimate reality? I checked the root word of Ahadun (&#1583 and doesn't say anything about ultimate reality or following.

Alif-Ha-Dal = make/call it one, unity, anyone/anything.
ahada ashara (eleven).

ahad n. 296, 2102, 2102, 2136, 2180, 2266, 2282, 2282, 2285, 373, 384, 391, 3153, 418, 420, 443, 4152, 56, 520, 527, 5106, 5115, 661, 780, 87, 94, 96, 952, 984, 9127, 1181, 1236, 1241, 1278, 1565, 1658, 1676, 1723, 1819, 1822, 1826, 1832, 1838, 1842, 1847, 1849, 18110, 1926, 1998, 2399, 246, 2421, 2428, 2825, 2826, 2827, 2928, 3332, 3339, 3340, 3541, 3542, 3835, 43!7, 499, 4912, 5911, 6310, 6947, 722, 727, 7218, 7220, 7222, 7226, 7435, 8925, 8926, 905, 907, 9219, 1121, 1124

ahada ashara n. num. 124

Lane's Lexicon, Volume 1, pages 63, 64, 65 ## http//ejtaal.net/aa/#q=aHd

The_Sardar

Surah 112 2

The course needs to be repaired and directed to one, who doesnt engage in worship.

Where did you get The course needs to be repaired and directed to one from? It says Allahu alssamadu ( &#1583 and alssamadu is in masculine noun not verb. Yes one of the meanings of ssamadu is repair but repair is a verb.

Sad-Miim-Dal = to set up, erect a thing, adorn, wish, repair, strike. samad - chief, lord, eternal, one to whom obedience is rendered, one to whom recourse is had, one who is independent, everything goes back to him as its source.

ssamadu (n. m. sing.) - 1122

LL, V4, p 450, 451 ## http//ejtaal.net/aa/#q=SMd

The_Sardar

Surah 112 3

Neither he has introduced a new idea, nor he could.

Yalid & yooladu doesn't mean idea, it means to beget or give birth

Waw-Lam-Dal = to beget, give birth.

Walada (prf. 3rd. p. m. sing.) he has begotten.
Waladna (prf. 3rd. p. f. plu.) They (f.) gave birth.
Wulida (pp. 3rd. p. m. sing.) He was born.
Wulidtu (pp. 1st. p. sing.) I was born.
Yalid (imp. 3rd. p. sing. juss.) He begets.
Yaliduu (imp. 3rd. p. m. plu. acc.) They will beget.
Alidu (imp. 1st. sing.) I will give birth, will bear a child.
Yuulad (pip. 3rd. p. m. sing. juss.) He is begotten.
Waladun (n.) Child; Offspring.
Aulaad (plu.) Children.
Waalidun (act. pic. m. sing.) Begotten, Real father.
Waalidatun (act. pic. f. sing.) Mother.
Waalidaan/Waalidain (act. pic. dual) Parents.
Waalidai (act. pic. duel. f. d.) Parents.
Wildaan (n. plu.) Youths; Children.
Waliidun (act. 2nd. pic. m. sing.) Child.
Mauluudun (pis. pic. m. sing. ) Begotten one; One who is born.

walada vb. (1)
perf. act. 37152, 582, 903
impf. act. 1172, 7127, 1123
perf. pass. 1915, 1933
impf. pass. 1123
pcple. act. (f. walidah, du. walidan) 283, 2180, 2215, 2233, 2233, 47, 47, 433, 436, 4135, 5110, 6151, 1441, 1723, 1914, 1932, 2719, 298, 3114, 3114, 3133, 3133, 4615, 4615, 4617, 7128, 903
pcple. pass. 2233, 2233, 3133

walad n.m. (pl. awlad) 2116, 2233, 2233, 2233, 2233, 310, 347, 3116, 411, 411, 411, 412, 412, 412, 412, 4171, 4176, 4176, 6101, 6137, 6140, 6151, 828, 955, 969, 985, 1068, 1221, 1731, 1764, 17111, 184, 1839, 1935, 1977, 1988, 1991, 1992, 2126, 2391, 252, 289, 3133, 3435, 3437, 394, 4381, 5720, 5817, 603, 6012, 639, 6414, 6415, 7121, 723

walid n.m. (pl. wildan) 475, 498, 4127, 2618, 5617, 7317, 7619

Lane's Lexicon, Volume 8, pages 220, 221, 222 ## http//ejtaal.net/aa/#q=wld

The_Sardar

Surah 112 4

There is no other ultimate reality in likeliness for him.

Again where is the ultimate reality in the verse? Kufuwan (&#1575 means equal

Kaf-Fa-Alif = To equal, compare.

Kufuwan Equal, like comparable; corresponding.

kufu n.m. 1124

LL, V7, p 145, 146 ## http//ejtaal.net/aa/#q=kfa

The arabic word for reality is alhaqqatu (&#1577 (691)

Ha-Qaf-Qaf = To be suitable to the requirements of justice or wisdom or truth or right or reality or fact, to be just/proper/right/correct/true/fitting, to be authentic/genuine/sound/valid/substantial/real, also established/confirmed/binding/unavoidable/incumbent, to be manifest, without doubt or uncertainty, established as a fact, to be obligatory or due, have right or title or claim to a thing, deserve or merit a thing, most worthy, ascertain, to be sure or certain, to be true or verifiable or veritable, to be serious or earnest, dispute or litigate or contend with another, speak the truth, reveal/manifest/show a truth or right, to be proven true, pierce or penetrate.

haqqa vb. (1)
perf. act. 730, 1033, 1096, 1636, 1716, 2218, 2863, 3213, 367, 3731, 3814, 3919, 3971, 406, 4125, 4618, 5014
impf. act. 3670
perf. pass. 842, 845

ahaqq n.m. (comp. adj. of haqq and haqiq) 2228, 2247, 5107, 681, 913, 962, 9108, 1035, 3337, 4826

haqiq n.m. 7105

haqq n.m. 226, 242, 242, 261, 271, 291, 2109, 2119, 2121, 2144, 2146, 2147, 2149, 2176, 2180, 2213, 2213, 2236, 2241, 2252, 2282, 2282, 33, 321, 360, 371, 371, 386, 3102, 3108, 3112, 3154, 3181, 4105, 4122, 4151, 4155, 4170, 4171, 527, 548, 548, 577, 583, 584, 5116, 65, 630, 657, 662, 666, 673, 691, 693, 6114, 6141, 6151, 78, 733, 743, 744, 744, 753, 789, 7105, 7118, 7146, 7159, 7169, 7181, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 832, 874, 929, 933, 948, 9111, 104, 105, 1023, 1030, 1032, 1032, 1035, 1035, 1035, 10;36, 1053, 1053, 1055, 1076, 1077, 1082, 1094, 10103, 10108, 1117, 1145, 1179, 11120, 1251, 12100, 131, 1314, 1317, 1319, 1419, 1422, 158, 1555, 1564, 1585, 163, 1638, 16;102, 1726, 1733, 1781, 17105, 17105, 1813, 1821, 1829, 1844, 1856, 1898, 1934, 20114, 2118, 2124, 2155, 2197, 21112, 226, 2240, 2254, 2262, 2274, 2278, 2341, 2362, 2370, 2370, 2371, 2390, 23116, 2425, 2425, 2449, 2526, 2533, 2668, 2779, 283, 2813, 2839, 2848, 2853, 2875, 2944, 2968, 308, 3038, 3047, 3060, 319, 3130, 3133, 323, 334, 3353, 346, 3423, 3426, 3443, 3448, 3449, 355, 3524, 3531, 3737, 3822, 3826, 3864, 3884, 3884, 392, 395, 3941, 3967, 3969, 3975, 405, 4020, 4025, 4055, 4075, 4077, 4078, 4115, 4153, 4217, 4218, 4224, 4242, 4329, 4330, 4378, 4378, 4386, 4439, 456, 4522, 4529, 4532, 463, 467, 4617, 4620, 4630, 4634, 472, 473, 4827, 4828, 505, 5019, 5042, 5119, 5123, 5328, 5695, 5716, 5727, 601, 619, 643, 6951, 7024, 7839, 1033

haqqah n.f. 691, 692, 693

ahaqqa vb. (4) impf. act. 87, 88, 1082, 4224

istahaqqa vb. (10) perf. act. 5107, 5107

Lane's Lexicon, Volume 2, page 241, 242, 243, 244, 245, 246 ## http//ejtaal.net/aa/#q=7qq

The_Sardar

Salam/Peace. By the way not accusing you of something bad.

bkanwar2

Where did you get The course needs to be repaired and directed to one from? It says Allahu alssamadu ( &#1583 and alssamadu is in masculine noun not verb. Yes one of the meanings of ssamadu is repair but repair is a verb.

Sad-Miim-Dal = to set up, erect a thing, adorn, wish, repair, strike. samad - chief, lord, eternal, one to whom obedience is rendered, one to whom recourse is had, one who is independent, everything goes back to him as its source.

ssamadu (n. m. sing.) - 1122

LL, V4, p 450, 451 ## http//ejtaal.net/aa/#q=SMd

Lesson number # 1 in the language. Almost, all triliteral roots are verbs. Any derivative word from root must carry that verbal meanings? If it doesn't, take it with a pinch of salt try to figure out why?

The_Sardar

Lesson number # 1 in the language. Almost, all triliteral roots are verbs. Any derivative word from root must carry that verbal meanings? If it doesn't, take it with a pinch of salt try to figure out why?

Forgive me if i got this wrong but alssamadu is in masculine noun singular form. If it was a verbal noun it would have been umd (&#8206. I got this from Wikitonary by the way.

bkanwar2

Forgive me if i got this wrong but alssamadu is in masculine noun singular form. If it was a verbal noun it would have been umd (&#8206. I got this from Wikitonary by the way.

Seems you didn't pay any attention to the following in red.

Lesson number # 1 in the language. Almost, all triliteral roots are verbs. Any derivative word from root must carry that verbal root meanings. If it doesn't, take it with a pinch of salt try to figure out why?

One can discuss with which equivalent word of the Language that it is translated in to use. Furthermore, one can't understand the Quran until understands that real meanings of Allah is "one who doesn't engage in worship". Current traditional meanings of words in translation were chosen or invented to fit understanding of Allah as "one and only deity for worship". Hence, this meaning of Allah impedes ones mind from looking at any other root meanings of a given root.

The_Sardar

Current traditional meanings of words in translation were chosen or invented to fit understanding of Allah as "one and only deity for worship". Hence, this meaning of Allah impedes ones mind from looking at any other root meanings of a given root.

Deity for worship? I am sorry if i lost you but where is did you get Deity & Worship together?

The_Sardar

By the way i forgot to Allah is not a religious god. God doesn't require a religion.

bkanwar2

Deity for worship? I am sorry if i lost you but where is did you get Deity & Worship together?

Please share your understanding of word worship? Also what do you understand by word god?

The_Sardar

Please share your understanding of word worship? Also what do you understand by word god?

I don't exactly have a understanding of worship. If you are referring to the word ibadat then to me it's to serve or serving through good & righteous deeds. And as for word God i am very skeptical of the object of worship. I learned that the proto-indoeuropean root word of God has some dispute.

A brother/sister of ours (Aries) made a research of the word God
Check here

dh
Inner Light and Meditation

Once the Indo-Europeans had used the consonant d, symbol of light, to denote the divine (divya) and god (deva), they then used the d to mean to bear light within the human soul and they consequently formed the root dh to think in contemplation or contemplative thinking.

From dh came the word dhti devotion, prayer or meditation, which, in Latin, corresponds to the word fides faith

(Please, note that the development of indoeuropean dh > latin f is very common.

From "Comparative etymological Dictionary of classical Indo-European languages Indo-European - Sanskrit - Greek - Latin", Rendich Franco, p. 88 (2014)

From this, the root for Greek theos (&#962 and latin deus have been recognised

dyeu-

To shine (and in many derivatives, "sky, heaven, god&quot. Zero-grades *dyu and *diw.
Derivatives include Tuesday, divine, jovial, Jupiter, diary, dismal, journey, and psychedelic.

Basic form *dyeu, Jove, the name of the god of the bright sky, head of the Indo-European pantheon.
Jove, jovial; apojove, perijove, Sangiovese, from Latin Iovis, Jupiter, or Iov, stem of Iuppiter, Jupiter.
July, from Latin Ilius, "descended from Jupiter" (name of a Roman gens), from derivative *iou-il.
Vocative compound *dyeu-pter, "O father Jove" (*pter, father; see pter-). Jupiter, from Latin Iuppiter, Ipiter, head of the Roman pantheon.
Dione, Zeus; dianthus, Dioscuri, from Greek Zeus (genitive Dios), Zeus.
Noun *deiwos, god, formed by e-insertion to the zero-grade *diw and suffixation of (accented) -o.
Tiu, Tuesday, from Old English Tw (genitive Twes), god of war and sky;
Tyr, from Old Norse Tr, sky god. Both a and b from Germanic *Twaz.
deism, deity, joss; adieu, adios, deific, deus ex machina, from Latin deus, god.
diva, divine, from Latin dvus, divine, god.
Dis, Dives, from Latin dves, rich (< "fortunate, blessed, divine&quot.
Suffixed zero-grade form *diw-yo, heavenly. Diana, from Latin Dina, moon goddess.
deva, Devi; deodar, Devanagari, from Sanskrit deva, god, and deva, divine.
Asmodeus, from Avestan dauua, spirit, demon.
Variant *dy (< *dye&#8209 dial, diary, diet2, dismal, diurnal, journal, journey; adjourn, ajour?, circadian, meridian, postmeridian, quotidian, sojourn, from Latin dis, day.
Variant *dei. psychedelic, adelgid, from Greek dlos (< *deyalos), clear.

From https//www.ahdictionary.com/word/indoeurop.html#IR017200

And also the Germanic Gott and English God

Quote

gheu(&#601-
To call, invoke. Oldest form *gheu(h2/3), becoming *gheu(h2/3) in centum languages. Suffixed zero-grade form *ghu-to, "the invoked," god.

god, from Old English god, god;
giddy, from Old English gydig, gidig, possessed, insane, from Germanic *gud-iga, possessed by a god;
g?tterd?mmerung, from Old High German got, god. a-c all from Germanic *gudam, god.

From https//www.ahdictionary.com/word/indoeurop.html#IR031900

This root gheu(&#601- is closely related to the root *ged-

*ged-
to join, to unite
Lith. guodas, Ltv. gods, Eng. gd/good, Gm. guot/gut, Goth. g?s; gds, ON g?r, Skr. (gadhya), OCS god, Russ. (god), Polish gody, Toch. ktk/ktk

from https//en.wiktionary.org/.../AppendixList_of.../g%CA%B0

Oxford English Dictionary

"god (gd). Also 3-4 godd. [Com. Teut. OE. god (masc. in sing.; pl. godu, godo neut., godas masc.) corresponds to OFris., OS., Du. god masc., OHG. got, cot (MHG. got, mod.Ger. gott) masc., ON. go?, gu? neut. and masc., pl. go?, gu? neut. (later Icel. pl. gu?ir masc.; Sw., Da. gud), Goth. gu?(masc. in sing.; pl. gu?a, guda neut.). The Goth. and ON. words always follow the neuter declension, though when used in the Christian sense they are syntactically masc. The OTeut. type is therefore *guom neut., the adoption of the masculine concord being presumably due to the Christian use of the word. The neuter sb., in its original heathen use, would answer rather to L. numen than to L. deus. Another approximate equivalent of deus in OTeut. was *ansu-z (Goth. in latinized pl. form anses, ON. ss, OE. ?s- in personal names, ?sa genit. pl.); but this seems to have been applied only to the higher deities of the native pantheon, never to foreign gods; and it never came into Christian use.

The ulterior etymology is disputed. Apart from the unlikely hypothesis of adoption from some foreign tongue, the OTeut. *gubom implies as its pre-Teut. type either *ghudho-m or *ghut?-m. The former does not appear to admit of explanation; but the latter would represent the neut. of the passive pple. of a root *gheu-. There are two Aryan roots of the required form (both *glheu, with palatal aspirate) one meaning to invoke (Skr. h&#363, the other to pour, to offer sacrifice (Skr. hu, Gr. , OE. y?otan YETE v.). Hence *glhut?-m has been variously interpreted as what is invoked (cf. Skr. puru-hta much-invoked, an epithet of Indra) and as what is worshipped by sacrifice (cf. Skr. hut?, which occurs in the sense sacrificed to as well as in that of offered in sacrifice&#8217. Either of these conjectures is fairly plausible, as they both yield a sense practically coincident with the most obvious definition deducible from the actual use of the word, an object of worship.

Some scholars, accepting the derivation from the root *glheu- to pour, have supposed the etymological sense to be molten image Gr. &#957, but the assumed development of meaning seems very unlikely.

From the Oxford English Dictionary.

I dont know very much about the particular stem, but I think that it is obvious why gheu(&#601 (invoke, call) and other root *ged- (unite, join) come from the same seme since when you call, people get united and joined and gathered. This *ged- also became gut in German and good in English. You still use it in the English words "gather" or "together".

In any case, I could only give a proper linguistic approach myself about the Greek "theos" and latin "deus", but I think your issue is about the English "god".

Also you must know there are other approaches which reject the above widely accepted etymology ( check http//search.proquest.com/.../168623f5623c2cb08baa8.../1... ), although personally I dont see any problem in the acceptance of no laryngeal development.

Note Proto Indoeuropean is a family of languages that consists on more than 100 languages (from German and Latin to Sanskrit or Armenian). These languages are supposed to come from a language (Indieuropean) talked around 4500 BC in Central Asia and spread until Europe in several migration waves. Those people had several names but the general one is Aryans. Take into account that the PIE reconstruction project is not only a project held by linguistics, it is a huge attempt that counts on genetics, archaeology, anthropology and geology)

bkanwar2

I don't exactly have a understanding of worship. If you are referring to the word ibadat then to me it's to serve or serving through good & righteous deeds. And as for word God i am very skeptical of the object of worship. I learned that the proto-indoeuropean root word of God has some dispute.

A brother/sister of ours (Aries) made a research of the word God
Check here

Please explain further in red what do you mean? Try defining concept god in your words. At best in one or two sentences. Anything that can not be defined this way is not a real concept.

The_Sardar

Please explain further in red what do you mean? Try defining concept god in your words. At best in one or two sentences. Anything that can not be defined this way is not a real concept.

I'm gonna try but bear with me because i am not good at explaining. Serving requires actions and i have seen a lot of verses in Al-Quran about justice & righteousness

4135
Ya ayyuha allatheena amanookoonoo qawwameena bialqisti shuhadaalillahi walaw AAala anfusikum awi alwalidayniwaal-aqrabeena in yakun ghaniyyan aw faqeeran faAllahuawla bihima fala tattabiAAoo alhawaan taAAdiloo wa-in talwoo aw tuAAridoo fa-inna Allahakana bima taAAmaloona khabeeran
O you who believe, stand with justice as witnesses to God, even if against yourselves, or the parents or the relatives. Even if he be rich or poor, God is more worthy of them, so do not follow desire into being unjust. And if you twist or turn away, then God is Expert over what you do.

Qaf-Siin-Tay ( &#1591 = to swerve from justice, act or deal unjustly/wrongfully. qasuta - to act justly. qist - justice, equity. qasit - one who acts unjustly/unrighteously. aqsatu - more just. aqsata (vb. 4) - to be just. muqsitun - one who observes justice.

qasata vb. (1) pcple. act. 7214, 7215

aqsat n.m. 2282, 335

qist n.m. 318, 321, 4127, 4125, 58, 542, 6152, 729, 104, 1047, 1054, 1185, 2147, 559, 5725

aqsata vb. (4)
impf. act. 43, 608
impv. 499
pcple. act. 542, 499, 608

LL, V7, p 50, 51 ## http//ejtaal.net/aa/#q=qsT

And as for concept of God, well i am not good at explaining but he is not just a god, He is the one God who is The Creator of the heavens & the earth like in 5924

5924

Huwa Allahu alkhaliqu albari-oalmusawwiru lahu al-asmao alhusnayusabbihu lahu ma fee alssamawatiwaal-ardi wahuwa alAAazeezu alhakeemu
He is God; the Creator, the Initiator, the Designer. To Him belong the most beautiful names. Glorifying Him is everything in the heavens and the earth. He is the Noble, the Wise.

I hope this answer your question. To me Allah or God or Dios or whatever language you are using, use it to refer to The Creator. Salamun Aleykum/Peace be upon you.

bkanwar2

Why do you need to keep referring to a scripture? Why can't you use your own understanding to describe concepts you have? Please just enumerate numerically 1, 2, ... the good and righteous deeds that you understand and perform every day.

For god, just say "it is creator" or "it is I worship five times a day or for whom I fast" or "for whom I will kill anybody". It is only if we can get our concepts crystal clear our deeds will become correct.