Sura Al Falaq
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A word is like a container - retainer. It has to be emptied to get what is stored in it. It has features. It has irreducible semantic elements. And conversely those features that it does not have.
Simple example of word woman; it has basic features - elements in it. Other words may share its some elements but will retain their distinction if some feature of it is not present in them.
Based upon highlighted in red you agree with my following reasoning.
This is the reason I have translated here as perfect progressive tense with "have been". This is based upon Quran's own textual as well other linguistic evidence. The word, has really been described as only a concept of "an act of creation by using specific measure and proportions, with no reference to a creator" in the Lane. Furthermore, if one pays attention to this act itself and especially in relationship to humans, it becomes apparent that it started in past, continues in present and will continue in future. Isn't this a kind of an act/verb which would be considered as Perfect Progressive in English? Hence, to describe such an act or verb, in English one has to use Perfect Progressive Tense.
Also how about your interpretation of syntactical break down of this whole Sura as one sentence with its components and any evidence and/or a rationale and logic to support such a conclusion?
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Also how about your interpretation of syntactical break down of this whole Sura as one sentence with its components and any evidence and/or a rationale and logic to support such a conclusion?
The first two words is the verbal sentence. Rest relates to first person imperfect verb .
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The first two words is the verbal sentence. Rest relates to first person imperfect verb .
So that would imply in your opinion divsion into verses is a random job with no regards to syntax? So how do you differentiate a written before a perfect first form of the verb like from "a negative" versus an interrogative pronoun?
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So that would imply in your opinion divsion into verses is a random job with no regards to syntax? So how do you differentiate a written before a perfect first form of the verb like from "a negative" versus an interrogative pronoun?
Verse numbering is for reference. Verse does not mean sentence. One verse could be a paragraph with topic sentence followed by supporting sentences and a conclusion.
It is syntax for which reason your translation has no relevance to the words of original text.
Ma is Relative Pronoun here followed by linkage clause with hidden subject referent to Rabb.
If you give a little attention even to the frame of word - Protection you will find its core and non-core collocates in the sentence of five ayahs.
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So that would imply in your opinion divsion into verses is a random job with no regards to syntax? So how do you differentiate a written before a perfect first form of the verb like from "a negative" versus an interrogative pronoun?
You have not responded to what is pointed out in the red? How does one know that this Ma here is a relative pronoun and not negative particle meaning "Not"?
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Verse numbering is for reference. Verse does not mean sentence. One verse could be a paragraph with topic sentence followed by supporting sentences and a conclusion.
Furthermore, with respect above I only agree partially with your statement. Besides, referencing in the text the purpose of numbering is to separate syntax. How come I can say such a thing? There are far longer verses than this whole Sura as one verse in Quran. Why was it divided into as many verses as it is, instead of keeping it as one verse? I agree the clue for me to translate this Sura was in the syntax. It was only after I started to have a better handle upon syntactical aspect of language that I was able to translate it this way.
Finally, if one accepts Tabari's translation as correct. Then there is noting wrong with understanding of Quran as it. However, this is exactly the point I am trying to highlight. WE DON'T UNDERSTAND A WORD OF QURAN, Besides what we do understand is all wrong.
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I have edited the translation of Sura Al Falaq as follows. Since Falaq is also described as having "low Character" in Lane.
I want to thank you Mazhar for the discussion. It would be very helpful to those not having advanced know how of the language to see a traditionalist arguments. It also provided me an opportunity to highlight my concerns about current understanding of Quran as being wrong. Also provided an opportunity to demonstrate the method of my translation and linguistic resources as well linguistic rationale and logic used in this process. Also was able to demonstrate that I am neither a hypocrite or deluded individual, nor I am blowing from Ass as some claim. All that I present here has reasonably sound linguistic support for it.
Finally, we can do as much linguistic gymnastic, but it has to be the translation presented below that needs to be looked at with open mind. With an objective that the one presented below, is it more reasonable and of practical use? If adopted capable of bringing more concrete and positive results compared to the traditionally claimed translation as correct. This is the readers job to decide and not for me.
Regards to all,
Surah 1131
I seek protection from any authoritative mind controlling concept that brings low character. After using your rationale express,
Surah 1132
It has never been consistent with natural disposition to be among wrongdoers, unjust, corrupt and wicked.
Surah 1133
Observe carefully, as darkness from following of wrongdoers, unjust, corrupt and wicked sets upon people.
Surah 1134
Then the enchanters from following of wrongdoers, unjust, corrupt and wicked will keep putting complicating twist into it.
Surah 1135
Observe carefully, it is envied to be following wrongdoers, unjust, corrupt and wicked as desirous.
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So how do you differentiate a written before a perfect first form of the verb like from "a negative" versus an interrogative pronoun?
Negative focus of Ma
Scope of Ma is consistently restricted to the category immediately following it. Moreover constituents negated by Ma must appear in the initial position that corresponds to the position usually occupied by proposed focus phrases. Constituent negations seems to be instance of negation focus.Pl see examples
Similar construction perfect verb coming after prepositional phrase coupled with possessive phrase with Ma (relative pronoun)
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Surah 1131
I seek protection from any authoritative mind controlling concept that brings low character. After using your rationale express,
seek protection the asset (any thing damaging) relating to protection is mentioned "from any....".
But where is the one from whom the protection is sought?
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Negative focus of Ma
Scope of Ma is consistently restricted to the category immediately following it. Moreover constituents negated by Ma must appear in the initial position that corresponds to the position usually occupied by proposed focus phrases. Constituent negations seems to be instance of negation focus.Pl see examples
Similar construction perfect verb coming after prepositional phrase coupled with possessive phrase with Ma (relative pronoun)
Mazhar thanks for above. Have you heard of circular logic? Let me give an example. In a class of philosophy about existence of god. A student said to professor, "Professor I know for sure that god exists". Professor replied, "please tell us how do you know it, instead of just believing it". The student replied, "Its very simple, Bible says god exist and Bible is god's word and god never lies". This is one of the best examples of Circular logic, I have found. Presenting the same thing that is being questioned as an evidence.
I am already saying that current translation of Quran is ALL WRONG. You are presenting it as an evidence? Please, share a linguistic rule that helps to differentiate one from other, if you can.
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Mazhar thanks for above. Have you heard of circular logic? Let me give an example. In a class of philosophy about existence of god. A student said to professor, "Professor I know for sure that god exists". Professor replied, "please tell us how do you know it, instead of just believing it". The student replied, "Its very simple, Bible says god exist and Bible is god's word and god never lies". This is one of the best examples of Circular logic, I have found. Presenting the same thing that is being questioned as an evidence.
I am already saying that current translation of Quran is ALL WRONG. You are presenting it as an evidence? Please, share a linguistic rule that helps to differentiate one from other, if you can.
Did I present you any translation?
I quoted you the original text to look how negation Ma is used with perfect.
You give me one example on the pattern of
to consider it negation Ma. -
I have edited the translation of Sura Al Falaq as follows. Since Falaq is also described as having "low Character" in Lane.
Finally, we can do as much linguistic gymnastic, but it has to be the translation presented below that needs to be looked at with open mind. With an objective that the one presented below, is it more reasonable and of practical use? If adopted capable of bringing more concrete and positive results compared to the traditionally claimed translation as correct. This is the readers job to decide and not for me.
Surah 1132
It has never been consistent with natural disposition to be among wrongdoers, unjust, corrupt and wicked.
You as a linguist tell me what type of sentence is it that you have written under the Arabic text.
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Let me you give you the whole linguistic methodology used in deriving this meanings. The syntactical analysis is more important part of it. This verse as written starts of with a prepositional phrase. A prepositional phrase usually can not be a subject of a sentence unless it is "a local sentence" or which is not the situation here. Then, analysis of confirms it to be a negative sentence. A whole sentence can be a subject of another whole sentence. Whereas, although a prepositional phrase most of the time can't be a subject of sentence, but can be a predicate of sentence.
With this background knowledge if we rearrange this verse it becomes
A prepositional phrase and an object. A negative sentence & subjectI already said so the sentence actually is as above for translating and understanding.
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These are action words; participles. Is there any participle in original text?
It is a prepositional phrase and we both agree.
literal meanings, "He became wrongdoer, unjust, corrupt or wicked" add meaning of preposition "in, from or among". Together literally "from or among wrongdoer, unjust, corrupt or wicked" . There are requirements to transfer this concept into English language for ease of reading in English. Hence, the translation you have. It is conveying the same concept. Please see meanings of below.
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000248.pdf
How would you translate this phrase differently with these given meanings?
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It is a prepositional phrase and we both agree.
literal meanings, "He became wrongdoer, unjust, corrupt or wicked" add meaning of preposition "in, from or among". Together literally "from or among he who became wrongdoer, unjust, corrupt or wicked" . There are requirements to transfer this concept into English language for ease of reading in English. Hence, the translation you have. It is conveying the same concept. Please see meanings of below.
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000248.pdf
How would you translate this phrase differently with these given meanings?
He translated a third person masculine verb and not noun which is in ayah.
And common sense about Min is that to consider it "from or among", the following word should be plural.
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He translated a third person masculine verb and not noun which is in ayah.
And common sense about Min is that to consider it "from or among", the following word should be plural.
Thanks for the red above. Please see below re-posting edited translation from above. Don't you see plural.
Surah 1131
I seek protection from any authoritative mind controlling concept that brings low character. After using your rationale express,
Surah 1132
It has never been consistent with natural disposition to be among wrongdoers, unjust, corrupt and wicked.
Surah 1133
Observe carefully, as darkness from following of wrongdoers, unjust, corrupt and wicked sets upon people.
Surah 1134
Then the enchanters from following of wrongdoers, unjust, corrupt and wicked will keep putting complicating twist into it.
Surah 1135
Observe carefully, it is envied to be following wrongdoers, unjust, corrupt and wicked as desirous.