Palavers about Qur'aan.
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Dear no botheration. Naive questions also help me. I had translated the Ayah just considering the words, their morphology and syntax. But I did not "watch" the scene of on going activity. Visualizing the scene helps better rendition in the target text.
The word is "MIn" and the phrase is . Does it mean "from the house" or "of the house"?
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Better read it here
Ayah 2124-129Brother Mazhar here is your translation from your link
And know when earlier Iebra'heim and Iesma'eile were raising the Foundations having commenced building the House , they prayed "Our Sustainer Lord! Kindly grace with Your acceptance our masonry service.
It translates as having commenced building the House
How this translation relates to the Arabic Text in the verse?
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Brother Mazhar here is your translation from your link
And know when earlier Iebra'heim and Iesma'eile were raising the Foundations having commenced building the House , they prayed "Our Sustainer Lord! Kindly grace with Your acceptance our masonry service.
It translates as having commenced building the House
How this translation relates to the Arabic Text in the verse?
The word is "MIn" and the phrase is . Does it mean "from the house" or "of the house"?
Why you are not getting it is because you perhaps overlooked the meanings and use of preposition Min. What is the function of prepositions? It relates the commencement location and time.
"from the house" now place what is being talked about "raised foundations from the house" it will become meaningless.
A prepositional phrase is always related to an entity or clause of a sentence. Prepositions do not impart a meaning on their own, they are understood only when other words are mentioned along with them. In fact, their very purpose is to expose certain attributes in the words around them.
Raising foundation means the commencement of building a house.
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Why you are not getting it is because you perhaps overlooked the meanings and use of preposition Min. What is the function of prepositions? It relates the commencement location and time.
No brother I did not overlook the meanings and use of "Min". But for sure I am not giving it the meanings that satisfy a certain story. We have to see what the words in the Quran are saying rather than imposing our wishes to get certain meanings.
"from the house" now place what is being talked about "raised foundations from the house" it will become meaningless.
That is exactly what I am saying. It becomes meaningless if we take al-bait as a physical stone structure. Is this verse saying something meaningful when we reflect on the words in the sentence "raising foundations from al-bait"?
A prepositional phrase is always related to an entity or clause of a sentence. Prepositions do not impart a meaning on their own, they are understood only when other words are mentioned along with them. In fact, their very purpose is to expose certain attributes in the words around them.
Brother I respectfully disagree with your comment. If words have no meanings on their own then they are useless. Each and every word in the Quran is chosen and used wisely by the Creator and must be meaningful. The preposition "Min" means "from" on its own and is not meaningless.
Raising foundation means the commencement of building a house.
True. Raising foundation is start of constructing a building but "raising foundations from al-bait' is not the same. It conveys different meanings because we cannot raise foundations from an already existing house.
salaam
Novice
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Quote from Mazhar on Today at 032526 AM
A prepositional phrase is always related to an entity or clause of a sentence. Prepositions do not impart a meaning on their own, they are understood only when other words are mentioned along with them. In fact, their very purpose is to expose certain attributes in the words around them.Brother I respectfully disagree with your comment. If words have no meanings on their own then they are useless. Each and every word in the Quran is chosen and used wisely by the Creator and must be meaningful. The preposition "Min" means "from" on its own and is not meaningless.
Did I say words have no meanings? What I said is this
Prepositions do not impart a meaning on their own, they are understood only when other words are mentioned along with them. In fact, their very purpose is to expose certain attributes in the words around them.
And it is true for all languages. Words like "on", "upon", "under" "over" give meanings when they are used with other words.
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Brother I respectfully disagree with your comment. If words have no meanings on their own then they are useless. Each and every word in the Quran is chosen and used wisely by the Creator and must be meaningful. The preposition "Min" means "from" on its own and is not meaningless.
It has meanings only when used with other word. Just utter it before people few times "from" "from" and see what response you get. It is conveying nothing to them.
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Quote from Mazhar on Today at 032526 AM
Raising foundation means the commencement of building a house.True. Raising foundation is start of constructing a building but "raising foundations from al-bait' is not the same. It conveys different meanings because we cannot raise foundations from an already existing house.
What else then you think it means
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It has meanings only when used with other word. Just utter it before people few times "from" "from" and see what response you get. It is conveying nothing to them.
It is true for any word then.
Say "bread" "bread" or "water" "water" or "mazhar" Mazhar" or so on and so forth, before people few times and see what response you get. It is also conveying them nothing. All words have their own meanings and when used in sentences they make a statement.
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It is true for any word then.
Say "bread" "bread" or "water" "water" or "mazhar" Mazhar" or so on and so forth, before people few times and see what response you get. It is also conveying them nothing. All words have their own meanings and when used in sentences they make a statement.
No, it is not true. Please read what is meant by a noun. Nouns do not need help of other words for meanings.
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What else then you think it means
Brother you have done a lot of hard work on your web site. I randomly scrolled through few pages and found how you have translated 2127. You can do your research to understand if al-bait = a stone structure in the Quran or not.
What I understood from other verses of the Quran that traditional story and translation of these verses is not as per the Arabic text. In my humble understanding at this time al-bait means the Divine system /guidance of Allah swt. Some of these verses are
(
How can a small stone cube be a ?
How you clean Allah's bait?
How can you raise foundations from the bait?
What al-birr has to do with entering a house from its back?
Brother you have to find your own satisfied meanings to these verses in stead of following others. Reflect and see how the meanings are as per context and how they go with the overall message of the Quran.
It is not to win or defeat but to find out better understanding of the Quran.
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No, it is not true. Please read what is meant by a noun. Nouns do not need help of other words for meanings.
Bread is a noun. If you keep on saying bread, bread, bread what it means. You have to make a statement. Same with "min". If you keep on saying from, from, from it does not convey a meaningful message.
So all words have their meanings on their own and convey a meaningful message when used in a sentence. Of course its my humble understanding and you have all the rights to disagree.
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Bread is a noun. If you keep on saying bread, bread, bread what it means. You have to make a statement. Same with "min". If you keep on saying from, from, from it does not convey a meaningful message.
So all words have their meanings on their own and convey a meaningful message when used in a sentence. Of course its my humble understanding and you have all the rights to disagree.
Pl see any book of English grammar to find what is definition of a preposition, a noun and verb.
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Brother you have done a lot of hard work on your web site. I randomly scrolled through few pages and found how you have translated 2127. You can do your research to understand if al-bait = a stone structure in the Quran or not.
What I understood from other verses of the Quran that traditional story and translation of these verses is not as per the Arabic text. In my humble understanding at this time al-bait means the Divine system /guidance of Allah swt. Some of these verses are
(
How can a small stone cube be a ?
How you clean Allah's bait?
How can you raise foundations from the bait?
What al-birr has to do with entering a house from its back?
Brother you have to find your own satisfied meanings to these verses in stead of following others. Reflect and see how the meanings are as per context and how they go with the overall message of the Quran.
It is not to win or defeat but to find out better understanding of the Quran.
What these sentences mean in your understanding? Better to give only of 2127.
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What these sentences mean in your understanding? Better to give only of 2127.
Brother I already given my understanding of "AL-Bait" as under
What I understood from other verses of the Quran that traditional story and translation of these verses is not as per the Arabic text. In my humble understanding at this time al-bait means the Divine system /guidance of Allah swt.
and when Ibrahim was raising foundations/fundamentals from the Divine Guidance/sytem.
Below is a quote from Brother Wakas's article.
From http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html
If the "bayt" mentioned in 396 is the cuboid called Kaabah in Makkah, then this has some issues
- a building is never described as a "guidance" elsewhere in AQ. However a community/nation can guide (e.g. 7159, 7181, 2173)
- according to traditional Islamic history the cuboid called Kaabah has been demolished and rebuilt several times - if so, does its status as a "guidance" and "securing" become temporarily suspended at these times?
- what are the clear signs in the cuboid called Kaabah? Is there even any? It is very rare for people to enter it today.
- I am not aware of any non-Islamic source that states Abraham was in the area of Makkah, nor any prophet/messenger thereafter.
- in present day Makkah, the alleged "maqam Ibrahim" (stone imprint of Abraham's footsteps) is outside the cuboid called Kaabah, not inside it like the verses say.
- I am not aware of any source which cites a place called Makkah or a cuboid called Kaabah prior to traditional Islamic sources.
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Brother I already given my understanding of "AL-Bait" as under
and when Ibrahim was raising foundations/fundamentals from the Divine Guidance/sytem.
Below is a quote from Brother Wakas's article.
From http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html
If the "bayt" mentioned in 396 is the cuboid called Kaabah in Makkah, then this has some issues
- a building is never described as a "guidance" elsewhere in AQ. However a community/nation can guide (e.g. 7159, 7181, 2173)
- according to traditional Islamic history the cuboid called Kaabah has been demolished and rebuilt several times - if so, does its status as a "guidance" and "securing" become temporarily suspended at these times?
- what are the clear signs in the cuboid called Kaabah? Is there even any? It is very rare for people to enter it today.
- I am not aware of any non-Islamic source that states Abraham was in the area of Makkah, nor any prophet/messenger thereafter.
- in present day Makkah, the alleged "maqam Ibrahim" (stone imprint of Abraham's footsteps) is outside the cuboid called Kaabah, not inside it like the verses say.
- I am not aware of any source which cites a place called Makkah or a cuboid called Kaabah prior to traditional Islamic sources.
Is used anywhere as The Guidance/System either in Qur'aan or even in any literature?
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- a building is never described as a "guidance" elsewhere in AQ. However a community/nation can guide (e.g. 7159, 7181, 2173)
Perhaps Wakas is not familiar with figures of speech.
Personification is a figure of speech in which a thing ? an idea or an animal ? is given human attributes. The non-human objects are portrayed in such a way that we feel they have the ability to act like human beings. For example, when we say, ?The sky weeps,? we are giving the sky the ability to cry, which is a human quality. Thus, we can say that the sky has been personified in the given sentence.
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Is used anywhere as The Guidance/System either in Qur'aan or even in any literature?
Please try yourself using guidance/divine system in verses 2124 -127 and then decide what make sense. For me al-bait = the house in these verses create many questions.
I understand al-bait in which one seeks peace and safety. The verses are saying al-bait is peace and security for human being.
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Please try yourself using guidance/divine system in verses 2124 -127 and then decide what make sense. For me al-bait = the house in these verses create many questions.
I understand al-bait in which one seeks peace and safety. The verses are saying al-bait is peace and security for human being.
If some thing creates many questions, one option to consider that I am not understanding some statement.
Firstly you thought it means "foundations from the Divine Guidance/System". Now you say, "He was raising the foundations of peace and security for human being".
Please put either of these words for Albait in the Ayahs and see for yourself what you get any sensible thing.
By the way no harm in studying Lane Lexicon on Bait.
Lane's Lexicon Bait
Root
Words from this Root in the Grand Qur?n
a) Total occurrences 73
b) No of constructions 30
It occurs in 54 Ayahs in 29 Chapters
Nouns 26 Recurrence 68 Verbs 4 Recurrence 5
Ibn Faris stated
( ة
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That it conveys the meanings of residence, abode, house; and place to return to, retreat, resort; and meeting point of union, assembly.
http//haqeeqat.pk/roots/(151).htm
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If some thing creates many questions, one option to consider that I am not understanding some statement.
Brother questions, in this case, are raised because canonized translations are not giving satisfactory answers. So next option is to think out of box.
Firstly you thought it means "foundations from the Divine Guidance/System". Now you say, "He was raising the foundations of peace and security for human being".
Purpose of discussion is not to prove that I am right and you are wrong. You are free to stick to your understanding. But please do not play with words. Read again what you have quoted and then read my post again to find out what I said. Peace and security is through following Divine system/guidance not by going around a stone building.
By the way no harm in studying Lane Lexicon on Bait.
If you think that "al-bait=the house" then how you satisfy these questions
The house of God had 360 idols and prophet and his companions used to prostrate facing those idols. They used to go around those idols.
People can get peace and security by going round this cube and kissing a black stone.
No record from non-muslim sources that prophet Ibrahim or his followers performed these rituals in Mecca before Muslim.
Jews and Christians never claimed Mecca as their religious gathering center and never come to perform hajj there as per recorded history - Muslim or non-Muslim.
No proof of even the alleged founder of this house Prophet Ibrahim, living in Mecca other than Muslim sources.
Before Prophet Muhammad birds were sent to save Kaaba but afterwards Kaaba has been attacked many times but no birds came to save it.
The supreme God needs a house on earth. etc. etc.