Difference between بسم (Bismi) and باسم (Bi-Ismi)
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Salam Jkhan!
Brother NW wants to say that Ismael was not preaching to a nation. He was preaching to his household only.
Peace!
Peace TMTT & NW
if your assumptions about NW is right then NW has to explain all AHLA words in QURAN with precise meaning for mere family.... That's impossible ... -
Peace... TMTT
Tbh.... Your research is very impressive....Peace JKhan and thank you! But this research is just in its initial stage. All I can see that with open eyes, ears and intellect, we can clearly find the true meaning of The Message. Since this Message has been changed during various eras and on a large scale therefore, one man may not be able to do a thorough research based on the guidelines I have set for myself. Whereever we get stuck we go for secondary resources and then we get stopped or change our direction. I just pray to The Almighty that He guides me and all of us to stay with Quran only.
You were referring languages of Lut Ibrahim and so on... There we come to a good point.. That's why I say Arabic is a new language.... These key figures lived almost very close proximity and they spoke the very common language of that era for this area.. As I indicated in one my earlier thread in this topic... It is impossible that Ibrahim Lot Ishhaq, Ismail etc or asbath spoke different language.. Coz it seems there was only one main language for this area but Arabic was not formed....
I am agreed with this point to some extent since all Hadith literature and Grammar was developed after a long time, Actually it took a few centuries to develop the traditional Islam while people made sects due to their own concerns.
NOTE See end of my this Reply.Take the example of Musa he vanished from king pharoa and settled for ages in another place and he spoke to them clearly and there were no hint of language barriers.... Even as you claim Lot and Ibrahim initially probably shifted after Ibrahim was put in fire to another place where they didn't find any language barricade.... Even Yousuf from his badu life to city life he didn't face any language issues... These glaring proofs shows that there was a very accepted language in this area which was spoken by people commonly... Like we see Now arabic... But there could have been small differences in the way they spoke... Thats expected... But all within the grasp of understanding....
As I said earlier in my post that 'language of signs' and possibility of 'translators' cannot be ignored. This is something which common sense can accept without objection. Moreover, there's is an account of Dhil-Qarnain who met a nation whose language was foreign to him {1893} but however, they were able to convey their message to him and he helped them. Then immediately in {1894} the people among that nation started talking with him and he helped them. How they communicated? There can be three possibilities firstly, the language of signs; secondly, a translator and thridly, he lived there for a certain period and learned their language.
As you may be aware... The Thorah is not actually book of Musa but a vast collection of suhuf of many isrelete prophets from Musa till Isa... So all those prophets would have spoken the same language of what Musa spoke coz in the end the final book Torah is in one language of various prophets .... Arabic formed at a very later stage and spread all over and eradicated the main source... But still main source remains as a sign...
I agree since the Arabic of Al-Quran is different than the existing Arabic to a great extent. Moreover, the era of Isa is also different than quoted in Islamic traditions, OT or NT. Quran tells that Isa and Maryam were from and they had relation with Musa and Harun. So there is no reason for me to go away from Quran and accept the traditional accounts. This is another topic that I would share some other time In Sha Allah!
To your question of Israeel... No one can answer this to be precise....coz God never says with borders.... But with only research of indirect verses you have to deduce... Look....
When Musa claim deliver the children of Isreal from Pharoa . We can imagine that where king pharoa lived is not Isreal... And when Musa vanished from one place to Midyan we can imagine that also not part of isreal coz it was not called as isreal... And lot lived near Dead Sea as per the evidences and the name of Luths lake... But this area is not part of isreal in anywhere in the book.... And Mohamed lived not far from Lot or Isreal as per Quranic indicative verses... Nabatean area is very much within the reality... And Ibrahim lived not far from Lot.. And he was not Jew or Christians.. No such group was even instituted... So if you keep away all these areas and you can find a place surrounded to this area is Isreal.... It's not far from current Day isreal and phalasten and even part of Lebanon and Jordan... But only it is my opinion but not merely from my head but with Quran's pattern of verses... There must be still a reason God kept alive the name of isreal and the language being spoken out there... As per my understanding there is still karate type of jews who speak older version of Hebrew.. All God will... If God says Isreal is well kept above other nations at least in the past and the favors furnished to them... Then we can imagine that that nation cannot be eradicated by any force... God's preference will always remain... God knows best...To find this place, another interesting word is there and that is . Which can be helpful in our researh. Musa A.S was there and Muhammad (PBUH) was also there. I am studying it nowadays.
For the BOLD part I agree. See {355} and {6114}.Here is a very intereting verse regarding our discussion about languages. See a word by word translation
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Cursed those who denied among Bani Israel upon tongue/language of Dawood A.S and Isa Ibne Maryam A.S. That with what they rebelled and used to transgress.
Did Dawood and Isa shared a common language? Please check and comment.May Allah bless and guide us all!
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As I said earlier in my post that 'language of signs' and possibility of 'translators' cannot be ignored. This is something which common sense can accept without objection. Moreover, there's is an account of Dhil-Qarnain who met a nation whose language was foreign to him {1893} but however, they were able to convey their message to him and he helped them. Then immediately in {1894} the people among that nation started talking with him and he helped them. How they communicated? There can be three possibilities firstly, the language of signs; secondly, a translator and thridly, he lived there for a certain period and learned their language.Let me reply for the moment to this segment ..... Good point of Dhul Qarnain.... Actually you cannot compare him with many of the prophets... Dhul Qarnain is totally different probably like Sulaiman...What God gave to Dhul Qarnain is beyond imagination.... God himself said the language of those community where Yajuj majuj were is pretty complicated or something similar. but nothing mentioned of complication of languges to Musa or Yousuf or Lot or Abraham when they shifted. ... but Dhul qarnain was given immense blessings... i don't think he needed any one to help him to understand them.... God knows best...
Peace -
Salam Jkhan!
I can compare him with other messengers/prophets due to the following reasons
- In 1884 the word (makkanna) is also used in Yousuf's account. (Al-though it may not be solid reason.)
- In 1886 the word (qulna) clearly tells that Allah or Malaikah talked with him and he was given authority to punish (ب a nation. (This is a solid reason.)
Peace!
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Salam Jkhan!
I can compare him with other messengers/prophets due to the following reasons
- In 1884 the word (makkanna) is also used in Yousuf's account. (Al-though it may not be solid reason.)
- In 1886 the word (qulna) clearly tells that Allah or Malaikah talked with him and he was given authority to punish (ب a nation. (This is a solid reason.)
Peace!
Peace..
TMTT
I meant 1884 " Indeed We established him upon the earth, and We gave him to everything a way"When DhiQarnain is given everything a way.... Then he won't find another language an issue... Coz what is furnished to him by God is miracle being a single person.... Travelling east and west itself a miracle for me... He was well equipped to talk to people from east to west... It seems like people also knew about him and his phenomena...
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Salam Jkhan!
Well, this will start an other topic. I mentioned Dhil-Qarnain because a language-barrier was mentioned in AQ at this point. How he overcame this barrier is not my concern at the moment.
Peace!